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Tight frog area.

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Posted by richhotrain on Saturday, November 24, 2012 11:36 AM

For what it is worth, and I know not what, does it stall moving through the outer curve, or inner curve, or both curves?

Rich

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Posted by richhotrain on Saturday, November 24, 2012 11:34 AM

Interesting, Detective Paul.

I wonder if the gears need a little lube.  Myabe there is just enough resistance at the lowest speeds to hold it up.  That could explain why it doesn't stall in reverse.

Rich

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Posted by Paul_in_GA on Saturday, November 24, 2012 11:28 AM

richhotrain

Paul_in_GA

Rich, I tried the alligator clips and put power to everywhere around that point with no help.

OK, so there is power on every point of that turnout.

I went down and looked at my 7.5 curved turnout.  That dead frog occupies a large area and that tender wheelbase is really small.  It may just be that there is a complete loss of power as both trucks sit on the frog.

Position the loco on the turnout so that both trucks are on the frog,  Is any portion of either truck on powered rails? 

You may have to settle for running at step 2 or higher.

Rich

Thanks Rich, you've been a great help.

I just tried THIS:

I ran it forward at 1, it stops.

I ran it backwards at 1, no problem.

Then I turned the loco completely around and tried it.

Now it'll stop in the same spot when in forward direction but physically turned around.  But it is intermittent.

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Posted by richhotrain on Saturday, November 24, 2012 11:19 AM

Paul_in_GA

Rich, I tried the alligator clips and put power to everywhere around that point with no help.

OK, so there is power on every point of that turnout.

I went down and looked at my 7.5 curved turnout.  That dead frog occupies a large area and that tender wheelbase is really small.  It may just be that there is a complete loss of power as both trucks sit on the frog.

Position the loco on the turnout so that both trucks are on the frog,  Is any portion of either truck on powered rails? 

You may have to settle for running at step 2 or higher.

Rich

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Posted by richhotrain on Saturday, November 24, 2012 11:15 AM

Stalling at slow speeds but running through at higher speeds doesn't tell you much because it could be coasting through without power.

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Posted by richhotrain on Saturday, November 24, 2012 11:14 AM

Without swapping the trucks, just run it in forward and reverse on the first speed step.  If ti stalls either way, it is not one of the trucks unless it is both trucks.

 

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Posted by Paul_in_GA on Saturday, November 24, 2012 11:07 AM

steemtrayn

Swap the tender trucks. If the rear truck still does what it did when it was the front truck, it might be the culprit.

Also, why does this only happen at 1 and not 2 or higher?  I mean, I'll never use it at 1 on that curve but methinks there's still a problem.

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Posted by Paul_in_GA on Saturday, November 24, 2012 11:04 AM

steemtrayn

Swap the tender trucks. If the rear truck still does what it did when it was the front truck, it might be the culprit.

It's starting to look like that.  I let it run on 1 till it stops.

Turn it to 0 but keep the light on.

The SLIGHTEST pressure, almost blowing on the tender will make the light come on and go off.

Only one problem.  I am not good at swapping trucks, especially wired ones.  Do I have to desolder the wires and resolder them?

Rich, I tried the alligator clips and put power to everywhere around that point with no help.

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Posted by steemtrayn on Saturday, November 24, 2012 10:47 AM

Swap the tender trucks. If the rear truck still does what it did when it was the front truck, it might be the culprit.

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Posted by richhotrain on Saturday, November 24, 2012 10:42 AM

Paul_in_GA

Will try this as soon as I get a chance.  I have the schematic as to where to place the wire.  I can use lengths of wire with alligator clips attached to make it easier.

That will work too.

There are lots of primitive ways to test for power or loss thereof.

I do this after relocating double crossovers.  Sometimes, after moving and relocating specialty tracks and turnouts, a loss of power is common due to the delicate nature of the jumpers underneath the turnout.

RIch

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Posted by richhotrain on Saturday, November 24, 2012 10:39 AM

I also keep a small 12 volt incandescent bulb on hand with a pair of thin gauge stranded wire attached to the bulb, one on the side and one on the base.

I use this bulb to test for power.

You can move the two wires around to find power losses where the bulb does not light when the wires touch the rails.

This can be useful in finding a loss of power on rail segments on a turnout.

Rich

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Posted by Paul_in_GA on Saturday, November 24, 2012 10:39 AM

richhotrain

If there are any doubts about power reaching every segment of rail, you can take two lengths of household wire like 14 gauge wire and make your own temporary jumpers.

I have two 5 inch lengths with the plastic insulation stripped off each end.

Each length is bent in a U-shape.

I hold each length of wire against a known powered section of rail and the other end to the problem piece of rail. 

That is sufficient to transfer power to the unpowered section of track if indeed it is unpowered.

With those two lengths held in place, the loco will pass through if lack of power is the problem.

Rich

Will try this as soon as I get a chance.  I have the schematic as to where to place the wire.  I can use lengths of wire with alligator clips attached to make it easier.

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Posted by richhotrain on Saturday, November 24, 2012 10:36 AM

Paul_in_GA

richhotrain

Adhesive wheel weights are small flat steel weights, usually weighing 1/4 ounce each, that have double sided tape attached to them.  You can buy them at any automotive supply store.

Rich

Thanks Rich but I don't know if even THAT will help because if I put a heavy flashlight on the tender it will STILL stop.  So it's looking more and more like a track electrical problem.

This is making me Angry

I agree.  I am giving up on the weights.

I also have my doubts that the loco is at fault.

I am focusing from afar on the curved turnout.

Rich

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Posted by richhotrain on Saturday, November 24, 2012 10:34 AM

If there are any doubts about power reaching every segment of rail, you can take two lengths of household wire like 14 gauge wire and make your own temporary jumpers.

I have two 5 inch lengths with the plastic insulation stripped off each end.

Each length is bent in a U-shape.

I hold each length of wire against a known powered section of rail and the other end to the problem piece of rail. 

That is sufficient to transfer power to the unpowered section of track if indeed it is unpowered.

With those two lengths held in place, the loco will pass through if lack of power is the problem.

Rich

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Posted by Paul_in_GA on Saturday, November 24, 2012 10:32 AM

richhotrain

Adhesive wheel weights are small flat steel weights, usually weighing 1/4 ounce each, that have double sided tape attached to them.  You can buy them at any automotive supply store.

Rich

Thanks Rich but I don't know if even THAT will help because if I put a heavy flashlight on the tender it will STILL stop.  So it's looking more and more like a track electrical problem.

This is making me Angry

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Posted by richhotrain on Saturday, November 24, 2012 10:28 AM

Adhesive wheel weights are small flat steel weights, usually weighing 1/4 ounce each, that have double sided tape attached to them.  You can buy them at any automotive supply store.

Rich

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Posted by Paul_in_GA on Saturday, November 24, 2012 10:27 AM

richhotrain

Now, we are going to really get basic.

Are the rails on the curved turnout clean?

Rich

Yes, I sanded them with 400 then 1200, then wiped them down.

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Posted by richhotrain on Saturday, November 24, 2012 10:23 AM

Now, we are going to really get basic.

Are the rails on the curved turnout clean?

Rich

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Posted by Paul_in_GA on Saturday, November 24, 2012 10:21 AM

cjcrescent

Paul_in_GA

Well it kinda makes it clear but what ones are the points and where is the insulation spots between the frog?

I'll print it out and compare it to the turnout, I also need to look at a diagram I have in a book about definitions, like stock rails.  I'm a newbie at this, I can do it I just don't want to mess it up.

Here's another drawing, with the parts labeled. I have this time included the approximate location of the gaps that make the frog a non-powered one. The rest of the parts are also labeled, and just for simplicity, I called one side + and the other -. They are also colored to show the electrical relationship of the parts to each other. You can either "replace" the jumpers as I said in my earlier posts or substitute feeders.

Since the problem only seems to be happening when you attempt to go thru the turnout along the "straight" side, I would suggest that you add the feeder approximately where the circle is. You could of course add all new jumpers in the approximate locations shown on the drawing, as I originally suggested in my original answer.

Adding just the one feeder would be easiest.

Carey, this helps a LOT.  Thanks.  I might just add feeders as I have a 4 x 8 and it's powered by only one set of wires soldered to the track on the opposite side.  Still have not had a chance to put the VOM on it but I doubt I'd find anything because just touching it with the leads will be enough to make it work if it is indeed a bad set of wires under the track.

It works on setting 2 and higher , just not 1.  So I'm not sure what it is.

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Posted by Paul_in_GA on Saturday, November 24, 2012 10:17 AM

richhotrain

Paul_in_GA

richhotrain

I would also add weight to the tender right over the trucks.

And, I would play with the trucks, tightening and loosening the screws that hold the trucks to the tender chassis to see if that will help.

Rich

Good advice Brad and Rich.  I will check with the gauge right now and check the trucks.

As for adding weight, well, I took it apart when I first got it and installed a decoder.  Now it's so tight you couldn't fit a fart in there let alone weight.

How about under the tender using steel brake weights?

Rich

OK, where do I get these weights and how do I install them?

Brad, I just checked with the gauge and they're perfect.

Rich, trucks seem fine, because of the way they're made there is a little slop to them despite how tight I make the screws.

And I had also did what you mentioned.  All the wheels are picking up power.  I did this:

First I tried your suggestion about lifting the wheels, was OK.  Then I removed the loco from the track and clipped alligator clips to the rails then touched every wheel combination and they all make the wheels move so there's no dead wheels.

It ONLY does this at 1.  Not 2 or higher.  I have no idea what's going on.  If I push down on the tender or the track in the slightest it'll move.  It HAS to be something not allowing the forward truck to get power at such a slow speed.

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Posted by richhotrain on Saturday, November 24, 2012 9:53 AM

Paul_in_GA

richhotrain

I would also add weight to the tender right over the trucks.

And, I would play with the trucks, tightening and loosening the screws that hold the trucks to the tender chassis to see if that will help.

Rich

Good advice Brad and Rich.  I will check with the gauge right now and check the trucks.

As for adding weight, well, I took it apart when I first got it and installed a decoder.  Now it's so tight you couldn't fit a fart in there let alone weight.

How about under the tender using steel brake weights?

Rich

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Posted by richhotrain on Saturday, November 24, 2012 9:52 AM

Here is another long shot thought.

You mention that at the slowest speeds, the rear truck of the tender stalls on the frog.

Is the front truck actually receiving power.

Yours is a steam engine, but I have had more than one diesel where only one truck is picking up power, resulting in stalls at slow speeds over the frog where the one truck picking up power is riding slowly over a dead frog.  That would explain no stalls at higher speeds where the loco coasts over dead spots without stalling.

To test that, move the loco to a straight section of track and run it at the slowest speed.  The lift up the rear portion of the tender and see if the loco is still receiving power from the front truck.

Rich

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Posted by Paul_in_GA on Saturday, November 24, 2012 9:50 AM

richhotrain

I would also add weight to the tender right over the trucks.

And, I would play with the trucks, tightening and loosening the screws that hold the trucks to the tender chassis to see if that will help.

Rich

Good advice Brad and Rich.  I will check with the gauge right now and check the trucks.

As for adding weight, well, I took it apart when I first got it and installed a decoder.  Now it's so tight you couldn't fit a fart in there let alone weight.

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Posted by richhotrain on Saturday, November 24, 2012 9:43 AM

I would also add weight to the tender right over the trucks.

And, I would play with the trucks, tightening and loosening the screws that hold the trucks to the tender chassis to see if that will help.

Rich

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Posted by richhotrain on Saturday, November 24, 2012 9:41 AM

One thing that I and others have written about before on this forum is the absolute necessity to build a stable base under a curved turnout.  My curved turnouts used to sit on Woodland Scenics Foam Track Bed which sits on a 1/2 inch plywood surface.  A few years back, I began placing a large thin piece of styrene sheet completely under the entire curved turnout.  That ensures that all of the rails on the turnout are level and even.  I don't know if that is your problem but from all of the symptoms that you mention, it is something to consider.  Stabilize the curved turnout as much as possible.

Rich

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Posted by twcenterprises on Saturday, November 24, 2012 9:37 AM

Paul - use your NMRA gauge and check the gauge on the wheelsets.  I'm suspecting they may be slightly wide or narrow.

Brad

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Posted by Paul_in_GA on Saturday, November 24, 2012 8:34 AM

richhotrain

Oh that's right, Paul is talking about a curved turnout so he only has the one to work with. 

If he has other steam locos, can he run those steamers through the turnout in reverse at low speeds?

If he can, then I would rule out the turnout and focus on the loco.

If he can't, then I would rule out the loco and focus on the turnout.

Right now, we just don't know who is the offender.

Rich

First, thank you all for helping.

Let's get the basics down.

1. It is OK in reverse, I was mistaken.

2. The truck on the tender swivels perfectly.

3. When I run a straightedge along the track all the way past the frog it does not get hung up.

4. It does not bind as I originally thought.

5. It stops right when the rear wheels are on the rail where it is insulated.

6. When it does get stuck I can wiggle the forward truck and it'll get juice.

Conclusion?  It appears as if something is lifting the forward truck causing it to lose power.  The other locos are fine because they are long enough to pick up power.  The tender's wheels are close together.

I have not had a chance to put my VOM on it yet (I will though) but it has to be getting power because if I wiggle that truck or push down on it it moves.  This only happens at the absolutely lowest setting of 1.

I removed some flash and filed down the frog base but I get the feeling something is lifting the truck.

One more clue and this is baffling.  When it's stuck if I push on the FOAM on the table it'll move.  So it seems like flexing the track helps too.

I don't have anything at all to replace it.

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Posted by twcenterprises on Saturday, November 24, 2012 6:44 AM

I'm not aware that he does, unless he has a recent purchase, but I will see if I can arrange another visit to help him troubleshoot - if he doesn't track down the problem before.

Brad

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Posted by richhotrain on Saturday, November 24, 2012 5:39 AM

Oh that's right, Paul is talking about a curved turnout so he only has the one to work with. 

If he has other steam locos, can he run those steamers through the turnout in reverse at low speeds?

If he can, then I would rule out the turnout and focus on the loco.

If he can't, then I would rule out the loco and focus on the turnout.

Right now, we just don't know who is the offender.

Rich

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Posted by twcenterprises on Saturday, November 24, 2012 5:32 AM

Since I helped Paul lay the track, I can help offer some insight.  He is working with a Walthers RH curved turnout, as stated in the original post.  My question is, did Paul check the wheel gauge on the tender?  If it's a bit tight or wide, that could cause the wheels to be lifted by the wing or guard rails or frog.  Also check the flange depth, but since this is a new model, I doubt this is the issue.  Paul said he checked the turnout, I believe, but I don't know if he checked the model.  This should have been done first, since his others seem to have no problems.

If the wheelsets check out fine, then it's time to focus on the turnout.  Since Paul's trackplan only has one such turnout, swapping it isn't an option.  I'd second the suggestion of fully checking the T/O with the VOM, make sure every last inch is getting power.  Assuming this has been done and checks out OK, then it's time to check and see why the tender wheels are being lifted.  Theoretically, if the T/O and wheels all check out with the NMRA gauge, there shouldn't be a reason for this.  I'd check to make sure the trucks turn and swivel freely, and have a little bit of "rock" to them.  I'd check the frog and guard rails for plastic flash and remove it if present.

Brad

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ALCO - Always Leaking Coolant and Oil

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