ef3 yellowjacket Paul; A happy wife is a happy world. Rich C
Paul;
A happy wife is a happy world.
Rich C
I don't get it. My wife is happy, she's at the mall right now. I keep her very happy. I do all the cooking, I love to cook. I cook her special diabetic meals because she's a severely type 1 brittle diabetic so I take good care of her. We get along great. She's happy when I'm happy.
mobilman44 Hi! As the good Doctor indicated, sometimes the best answer to a problem is to just "walk away". I've been playing with trains for almost 60 years, and have had my share of problems (more?). Some were really nasty, particularly in getting used to DCC wiring/control/sensitivity, etc. One thing I have found - and try really hard to keep in mind - is that every problem I've had has been resolved - sooner or later. AND, the really hard ones were resolved with the assistance of the good folks on this forum (you know who you are). So like the man says, when it really is getting to you, pull the plug, shut the door, and go do something else. Come back in a day or two, do a post on the forum, and keep an open mind to the suggestions you get. Most of all, be patient - for it is a hobby....................
Hi!
As the good Doctor indicated, sometimes the best answer to a problem is to just "walk away".
I've been playing with trains for almost 60 years, and have had my share of problems (more?). Some were really nasty, particularly in getting used to DCC wiring/control/sensitivity, etc.
One thing I have found - and try really hard to keep in mind - is that every problem I've had has been resolved - sooner or later. AND, the really hard ones were resolved with the assistance of the good folks on this forum (you know who you are).
So like the man says, when it really is getting to you, pull the plug, shut the door, and go do something else. Come back in a day or two, do a post on the forum, and keep an open mind to the suggestions you get.
Most of all, be patient - for it is a hobby....................
Thanks mobilman, and Rich.
Here's where we're at now.
I decided to put it all back together. It was tedius but I did it. I then used the alligator clips and tested all the wheels and they all worked (the DRIVER wheels) usining power provided with the clips and t-pins on the other end. I discovered one main driver wheel was making intermittent contact but still moving. So I bent it a little closer to the wheel, still the same. So I am going to spray contact cleaner on it. ALL driver wheels now move when juice is applied to them. The loco runs perfectly and at a speed of 1 at that frog it just moves right through.
So here's my conclusion. The plug in the tender that provides power to the driver wheels wasn't seated properly. The loco was moving by picking up power from the tender wheels only which also drive the the driver wheels. So since the tender wheels are so close together it got stuck on that insulated part of the frog. When I wiggled the tender forward truck it would get contact and move. So I think also attributable to this was some flashing on the base of the frog that needed to be filed down which I did yesterday. It apparently lifted the forward tender truck JUST enough for it to lose electrical contact.
I tested it many many times on 1 through that frog and it works fine now.
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
doctorwayne Rich, from what I can gather, the drivers were picking up current all through this exercise, but it was not being delivered to the motor because of faulty or partially disconnected wiring. So touching clips to them wouldn't produce any connection because the problem lay beyond them. While most of us would assume that the drivers would be part of the current collection system, an inexperienced modeller might easily conclude, from the tests he performed, that the drivers weren't involved. Basically, the problem of the stalling locomotive is probably solved. Now the problem is to get the thing back together and running properly. I don't run DCC, but otherwise I would offer to put it back together for Paul. With the shipping charges, though, he's better off going to the local guy - it shouldn't cost much, if anything, to get it reassembled. Paul, you've learned quite a bit here, but an important part of applying that knowledge is patience. When things start to go bad, it's often better to walk away for a while. When you come back, often the situation looks less serious and you'll likely be thinking and seeing more clearly, too. Wayne
Rich, from what I can gather, the drivers were picking up current all through this exercise, but it was not being delivered to the motor because of faulty or partially disconnected wiring. So touching clips to them wouldn't produce any connection because the problem lay beyond them. While most of us would assume that the drivers would be part of the current collection system, an inexperienced modeller might easily conclude, from the tests he performed, that the drivers weren't involved.
Basically, the problem of the stalling locomotive is probably solved. Now the problem is to get the thing back together and running properly. I don't run DCC, but otherwise I would offer to put it back together for Paul. With the shipping charges, though, he's better off going to the local guy - it shouldn't cost much, if anything, to get it reassembled.
Paul, you've learned quite a bit here, but an important part of applying that knowledge is patience. When things start to go bad, it's often better to walk away for a while. When you come back, often the situation looks less serious and you'll likely be thinking and seeing more clearly, too.
Wayne
Thanks Wayne. Your assment is correct. Thanks for your offer. I have learned a lot. You're right, walking away and coming back later helps.
Paul_in_GA ........I have no one to help, no one to teach, no one to guide, not one person near me to help me learn. I have to struggle every step of the way. How is this fun?
........I have no one to help, no one to teach, no one to guide, not one person near me to help me learn. I have to struggle every step of the way. How is this fun?
Paul_in_GA richhotrain Look, we can debate this until we are both blue in the face, but when you say that "they all make the wheels move", one can only infer that you are talking about the driver wheels which rotate when powered. The tender wheels only move as the loco pulls the tender down the track. The tender wheels don't "move" when they are powered. Rich Let me try to be even clearer. I take the clips that are clipped to the rails. I touch the opposing wheels on the tender, ONLY the tender, in every combination and the main loco's wheels moved, the driver wheels. So this means that the tender wheels are picking up power, sending that power to the driver wheels and the driver wheels move. I KNOW the tender's wheels do no move the loco, they are power pickups. The MAIN wheels, the loco's DRIVER wheels WERE dead when power was applied to them but I thought this was normal. So the driver wheels ONLY moved when the tender's wheels touched the rails. NOW, after replugging that plug I can get ALL the DRIVER wheels to move when I touch the clips to the DRIVER wheels. See? I thought it was normal that the drivers didn't pick up power. I thought only the tender's wheels picked up power and sent it to the driver wheels.
richhotrain Look, we can debate this until we are both blue in the face, but when you say that "they all make the wheels move", one can only infer that you are talking about the driver wheels which rotate when powered. The tender wheels only move as the loco pulls the tender down the track. The tender wheels don't "move" when they are powered. Rich
Look, we can debate this until we are both blue in the face, but when you say that "they all make the wheels move", one can only infer that you are talking about the driver wheels which rotate when powered. The tender wheels only move as the loco pulls the tender down the track. The tender wheels don't "move" when they are powered.
Rich
Let me try to be even clearer.
I take the clips that are clipped to the rails.
I touch the opposing wheels on the tender, ONLY the tender, in every combination and the main loco's wheels moved, the driver wheels. So this means that the tender wheels are picking up power, sending that power to the driver wheels and the driver wheels move. I KNOW the tender's wheels do no move the loco, they are power pickups.
The MAIN wheels, the loco's DRIVER wheels WERE dead when power was applied to them but I thought this was normal. So the driver wheels ONLY moved when the tender's wheels touched the rails.
NOW, after replugging that plug I can get ALL the DRIVER wheels to move when I touch the clips to the DRIVER wheels.
See? I thought it was normal that the drivers didn't pick up power. I thought only the tender's wheels picked up power and sent it to the driver wheels.
Paul, you wrote that on page 3 of this thread on Saturday morning at 10:17 AM, long before you acted on Wayne's advice and checked the wiring harness and plug.
So, if your test was accurate, the driver wheels were receiving power from the beginning.
I am not trying to rub this in your face. I am trying, along with all of the others, to make you a better modeler and problem solver. You need to learn to test better and to accurately report the results of those tests so we can effectively help you.
Alton Junction
Paul_in_GA richhotrain Paul_in_GA And I had also did what you mentioned. All the wheels are picking up power. I did this: First I tried your suggestion about lifting the wheels, was OK. Then I removed the loco from the track and clipped alligator clips to the rails then touched every wheel combination and they all make the wheels move so there's no dead wheels. Based upon your statement above, Paul, with the loco off the track and power applied to the tender's pickup wheels, the driver wheels turned. So, something doesn't add up here. Rich ARGH!!! When I wrote that I was ONLY talking about the tender's wheels as I did not KNOW the loco's wheels were supposed to be powered. When I lifted the wheels I lifted just the front two of the tender then set all the tender's wheels down and then lifted the rear wheels of the tender and set the rear wheels of the tender back down. When I said I used the clips I touched ONLY the tender's wheels because I ASSUMED the main loco's wheels did not get power. I was under the impression that this loco was powered ONLY by the tender's wheels.
richhotrain Paul_in_GA And I had also did what you mentioned. All the wheels are picking up power. I did this: First I tried your suggestion about lifting the wheels, was OK. Then I removed the loco from the track and clipped alligator clips to the rails then touched every wheel combination and they all make the wheels move so there's no dead wheels. Based upon your statement above, Paul, with the loco off the track and power applied to the tender's pickup wheels, the driver wheels turned. So, something doesn't add up here. Rich
Paul_in_GA And I had also did what you mentioned. All the wheels are picking up power. I did this: First I tried your suggestion about lifting the wheels, was OK. Then I removed the loco from the track and clipped alligator clips to the rails then touched every wheel combination and they all make the wheels move so there's no dead wheels.
And I had also did what you mentioned. All the wheels are picking up power. I did this:
First I tried your suggestion about lifting the wheels, was OK. Then I removed the loco from the track and clipped alligator clips to the rails then touched every wheel combination and they all make the wheels move so there's no dead wheels.
ARGH!!!
When I wrote that I was ONLY talking about the tender's wheels as I did not KNOW the loco's wheels were supposed to be powered. When I lifted the wheels I lifted just the front two of the tender then set all the tender's wheels down and then lifted the rear wheels of the tender and set the rear wheels of the tender back down. When I said I used the clips I touched ONLY the tender's wheels because I ASSUMED the main loco's wheels did not get power. I was under the impression that this loco was powered ONLY by the tender's wheels.
selector Paul, the drivers and rods have to go back into their bearing slots a certain way. You may have to find photos of the locomotive and match the orientation of all the rods and levers to the photo. Otherwise, you will get all sorts of problems, including binding. You can assemble a toy locomotive perfectly, gears nicely meshed, everything nice and tidy, but one lever angled the wrong way and the whole thing will lock up. Trust me, anyone who has ever taken out his steamer's drive to see what's going on has had to learn that it doesn't just cram back into position. Those pins mean a lever can sag past its resting point and want to behave in reverse. Be patient. This is classroom time. You'll never forget what you learn here, even if it doesn't come naturally or quickly. Look at your exploded diagramme....the rods are probably shown as they should be. Or, find a photo on the web and fix it. Crandell
Paul, the drivers and rods have to go back into their bearing slots a certain way. You may have to find photos of the locomotive and match the orientation of all the rods and levers to the photo. Otherwise, you will get all sorts of problems, including binding. You can assemble a toy locomotive perfectly, gears nicely meshed, everything nice and tidy, but one lever angled the wrong way and the whole thing will lock up. Trust me, anyone who has ever taken out his steamer's drive to see what's going on has had to learn that it doesn't just cram back into position. Those pins mean a lever can sag past its resting point and want to behave in reverse.
Be patient. This is classroom time. You'll never forget what you learn here, even if it doesn't come naturally or quickly. Look at your exploded diagramme....the rods are probably shown as they should be. Or, find a photo on the web and fix it.
Crandell
Thanks. If that's the case it goes to my LHS for him to fix as he has decades of experience building brass locos from scratch. Thanks because that saves me an enormous amount of potential frustration today.
But it's odd that when I had it all back together after putting the rods back and all and laying it on it's side with the shell off it ran fine. It only binds when the shell was tightened to the chassis. I thought it was the heat shrinked wire binding against the flywheel.
.
richhotrain Paul_in_GA Rich, I did all that, step-by-step. I ruled out everything on your list yesterday. But, you didn't. You did not confirm with certainty that each section of the turnout had uninterrupted current. We still don't know that for sure. You did not fully test the loco to confirm that all of the power pickups were working correctly and drawing current. We still are not sure if the drivers are powered and picking up power. We still don't know why the loco stalls in reverse at the frog. We don't know if both the forward and rear tender trucks rest on the dead frog. You cannot blame the manufacturer or the hobby for inadequate instructions or diagrams. If I had visited your layout yesterday, without any written materials, I could test the turnout and the loco for electrical impediments and for physicial impediments. As I previously said, you have to be be able to hone in on the problem and only after it is identified can you begin to solve it. Even now, when you hopefully get that loco put back together, you cannot be sure that it will back through the turnout at speed step 1 without stalling even if the driver wheels are powered. Right now, we don't know if the problem is electrical or physical and we don't know if the problem is the turnout or the loco. Rich
Paul_in_GA Rich, I did all that, step-by-step. I ruled out everything on your list yesterday.
Rich, I did all that, step-by-step. I ruled out everything on your list yesterday.
But, you didn't.
You did not confirm with certainty that each section of the turnout had uninterrupted current. We still don't know that for sure.
You did not fully test the loco to confirm that all of the power pickups were working correctly and drawing current. We still are not sure if the drivers are powered and picking up power.
We still don't know why the loco stalls in reverse at the frog.
We don't know if both the forward and rear tender trucks rest on the dead frog.
You cannot blame the manufacturer or the hobby for inadequate instructions or diagrams.
If I had visited your layout yesterday, without any written materials, I could test the turnout and the loco for electrical impediments and for physicial impediments.
As I previously said, you have to be be able to hone in on the problem and only after it is identified can you begin to solve it.
Even now, when you hopefully get that loco put back together, you cannot be sure that it will back through the turnout at speed step 1 without stalling even if the driver wheels are powered.
Right now, we don't know if the problem is electrical or physical and we don't know if the problem is the turnout or the loco.
Rich, let me spell it out for you as clearly as I can.
1. When I used the alligator clips on the wheels BEFORE I opened the loco ONLY the tender truck wheels provided power. I touched the clips to ALL wheels in ALL combinations so I KNOW the loco's wheels were not powered.
2. When I opened the tender the loco's power plug was attached so I removed it and re-plugged and when I used the alligator clip routine ALL wheels, tender AND loco now had power.
3. I used a DVM to not only check voltage ALL around that turnout, the frog, the rails etc., I ALSO OHMED it out as I wiggled the track because it is not glued down but it IS soldered to a piece of flextrack so I can't remove it easily. It tested fine. Not ONE open on the meter.
4. I did not KNOW the loco had powered wheels on the loco itself. THAT is where the problem was.
5. The binding is the pickup power wire with the heat shrink on top of the flywheel, it needs to be on the side when I put it back together as I think it was binding because that heatshrink covered wire was hitting the flywheel. Because with it laying on its side with the shell off it had power on ALL wheels.
So the original problem was that plug not connected all the way and NOT KNOWING this loco was SUPPOSED to have powered pickups on the wheels of the loco itself.
If and when I get it back together I will bet anything it will be fine on that turnout. The loco's wheels were not getting power.
Is THAT clear enough for you or do we have to call each on the phone to make it clearer?
Sorry about the hostility but presently I am tired from being up all night screwing with this thing and frustrated at having to learn by the school of hard knocks.
Where the problem lies is in the F&*%$^G exploded view. NO OTHER INFORMATION, NOT EVEN A WIRING DIAGRAM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So without experience or knowledge or factory provided INFORMATION how was I supposed to know the main part of the loco had pickups on the wheels? I know now but it's a HELL of a way to learn.
I blame the manufacturers FIRST AND FOREMOST for the extremely limited information they give you.
I mean are you guys on this forum BORN with the knowledge on how to do all this?
I have no one to help, no one to teach, no one to guide, not one person near me to help me learn. I have to struggle every step of the way. How is this fun?
Paul_in_GA Rich, this is what I get when I don't have experenice. This infuriates me because all they give you is an exploded drawing. That's ridiculous. They don't even show the wires on it. I paid a lot for this loco and all I get is a crappy exploded view. I guess they assume a body of knowledge but how do you ge it? By the way, I was describing everything exactly as I saw it at the time.
Rich, this is what I get when I don't have experenice. This infuriates me because all they give you is an exploded drawing. That's ridiculous. They don't even show the wires on it. I paid a lot for this loco and all I get is a crappy exploded view. I guess they assume a body of knowledge but how do you ge it?
By the way, I was describing everything exactly as I saw it at the time.
That's why I don't blame you. As a newbie, that is all you have to go on.
But, it can be a valuable learning experience.
Whenever I purchase a new loco, the first thing that I do is to run it on a straight section of track. Does it move forward? Does it move backward? Do the lights work? Do they flicker? If all is well, then I run it around the layout in forward. Then, all the way around in reverse. Then I repeat the process at the highest speed. Then I repeat the process at the lowest speed. Forward and reverse.
Now let's say what happened to you, happens to me. I am running a Bachmann 2-8-0 in reverse at speed step 1 and it stops running on the curved turnout frog. It doesn't derail. It doesn't short. It stalls.
Why did it stall in reverse at slow speed? To me, whatever impeded the movement is either electrical or physical. It is either the turnout or the loco. But which is it?
I always start with the turnout. I need to be sure that it has electrical current flowing through it on every rail. Yeah, I have a couple of voltmeters and even a RRampMeter, but I go more primitive. I have a small 12 volt incandescent bulb with two wires attached to it. I place th exposed ends of the wires on the opposing rails on every section of that turnout, stock rails, point rails, every section. If the bulb continually lights up, the electrical conductivity is good. If the bulb fails to light at any point, I find out why. I add feeders to the end of every rail on the turnout. If one of the underside jumpers is loose, I fix it.
Once the electrical conductivity of the turnout is proven good, I test the power pickups on the loco. That is a little easier to do on a diesel than a steamer, but it can be done. Are the drivers powered and are they picking up power? Are the tender wheels powered and are they picking up power? Do any of the wheels fail to pick up power? If so, why? Loose harness? Loose pick up wire? Missing driver wiper?
Once all of the electrical issues are resolved, I consider physical issues that impede movement.
First, the turnout. Is the frog raised? A straight edge will answer that question. Is the frog too tight? Roll a box car through slowly by hand and see if it binds. Are the rails level and even? Make sure you have a stable base for the turnout. Are the guard rails too high? Are the edges of the guard rails too sharp instead of rounded? If so, file them.
Last, I check the loco for physical impediments. Are the wheels out of gauge? Are the flanges too deep? Do the coupler pins hang too low? Are the trucks too tight, especially on the tender? Are the trucks bent out of square shape? Does the loco and/or tender need weight?
So, in summary, a stall on a turnout is either electrical or physical. It is either the turnout or the loco.
You have to perform due diligence. Which is it? Electrical or physical? Turnout or loco?
Until you get that resolved, you will be all over the place looking for the problem.
richhotrain Wow, we all go to bed and wake up to this? Wayne, wake up! Are you there? I think that the reason this thread grew to nine pages is that it became a working session on line with Paul going back and forth to and from the computer to the layout and back again. No one bothered to ask about the drivers because we were all under the impression that the problem was focused on the frog or the slow speed performance of the loco or both. All pickups, wherever they were located, were working, or so we were told. I don't blame Paul, but an inexperienced model railroader often has difficulty with describing the problem and reducing it to its root causes. In this case, it started out quite simply with the understanding that the loco only failed at the slowest speed step in reverse to get past the frog. Turned out, it worked fine in reverse. Then, it was only on this turnout. Later, we find out that it is happening on more than one turnout. The frog is raised. Later, no it is not. The tender wheels bind in the frog area. No they don't. it only stalls at speed step one. Oops, it fails at higher speed steps, say 10. It's a Bachmann, no it is a Roundhouse. As I say, I don't blame Paul, he is a newbie to the hobby. But, he will need to improve his investigative skills when seeking online help. Anyway, back to the issue at hand. From what I just read when I woke up and came online is that the Roundhouse 2-8-0 is an all wheel pickup, 8 driver wheels and 8 tender wheels. Assuming that the wiring harness was somehow defective and power was only being picked up by the tender, we were told that both trucks had power. Assuming that was true, the loco should be able to pass over the frogs of the various turnouts on Paul's layout without stalling. So, aren't we back where we started? Rich
Wow, we all go to bed and wake up to this?
Wayne, wake up! Are you there?
I think that the reason this thread grew to nine pages is that it became a working session on line with Paul going back and forth to and from the computer to the layout and back again.
No one bothered to ask about the drivers because we were all under the impression that the problem was focused on the frog or the slow speed performance of the loco or both. All pickups, wherever they were located, were working, or so we were told.
I don't blame Paul, but an inexperienced model railroader often has difficulty with describing the problem and reducing it to its root causes.
In this case, it started out quite simply with the understanding that the loco only failed at the slowest speed step in reverse to get past the frog. Turned out, it worked fine in reverse.
Then, it was only on this turnout. Later, we find out that it is happening on more than one turnout.
The frog is raised. Later, no it is not.
The tender wheels bind in the frog area. No they don't.
it only stalls at speed step one. Oops, it fails at higher speed steps, say 10.
It's a Bachmann, no it is a Roundhouse.
As I say, I don't blame Paul, he is a newbie to the hobby.
But, he will need to improve his investigative skills when seeking online help.
Anyway, back to the issue at hand.
From what I just read when I woke up and came online is that the Roundhouse 2-8-0 is an all wheel pickup, 8 driver wheels and 8 tender wheels. Assuming that the wiring harness was somehow defective and power was only being picked up by the tender, we were told that both trucks had power. Assuming that was true, the loco should be able to pass over the frogs of the various turnouts on Paul's layout without stalling.
So, aren't we back where we started?
This is where I am now.
I took apart the tender and reset the plug for the wheels on the main loco and they worked. But I STUPIDLY took apart the loco and it fell apart in my hands. It took me THREE HOURS to get the articulating rods and those little pins to get back together again and THEN when I ran it it was bound up so badly it wouldn't budge.
So I took it apart again and electrified the wheels and it ran smooth as silk but when I put it back toegther again biinding, took it apart again and it fell apart. That's when it came THIS close to an encounter with a sledgehammer.
Now it sits, maybe my LHS guy can put it all back together.
I leaened one thing. Don't EVER *%#* with locos. I JUST don't have the experience. I WISH to GOD they came with better manuals they SHOULD for all the money you pay for them.
I can't tell you how frustrated I am now.
doctorwayne Paul, while I know little of decoder installation, the site where I learned a little more about that loco can be viewed HERE I haven't read through it, but there's a specific admonishment to "avoid damage to the wiring", so it might be worth reading. Wayne
Paul, while I know little of decoder installation, the site where I learned a little more about that loco can be viewed HERE
I haven't read through it, but there's a specific admonishment to "avoid damage to the wiring", so it might be worth reading.
I KNEW I shouldn't have messed with it because now it's ALL messed up. I opened up the tender and reset the plug and then the mains picked up power. However, I really messed up SO badly that it's now unusable. I took apart the loco not knowing what to expect. Now I can't get it back together properly. I got it back together once and when I tried to run it it was binding. Now it's all in pieces and I'm pretty angry at myself because I have NO idea how to fix it and I had NO idea how to take one apart. This is disappointing because at least it was working before I ruined it. I'm beginning to hate this hobby.
doctorwayne Sorry, but I'm not familiar with that loco. Your reference to rubber had me confused, but I see that the loco has traction tires on the rear driver set. According to the site I looked at, your loco picks up current on all drivers (except those with the traction tires), so there's a problem within the wiring from the locomotive to the decoder, I'd guess. As I mentioned in my previous post, it's likely that the pick-up is working only on the tender, and when it hits that turnout and quits, it's because the contact between the turnout and the tender wheels, for whatever reason, has been broken. Touching the tender restores contact, but the loco itself should be part of the power supply too. I'd check that wiring. Wayne
Sorry, but I'm not familiar with that loco. Your reference to rubber had me confused, but I see that the loco has traction tires on the rear driver set.
According to the site I looked at, your loco picks up current on all drivers (except those with the traction tires), so there's a problem within the wiring from the locomotive to the decoder, I'd guess. As I mentioned in my previous post, it's likely that the pick-up is working only on the tender, and when it hits that turnout and quits, it's because the contact between the turnout and the tender wheels, for whatever reason, has been broken. Touching the tender restores contact, but the loco itself should be part of the power supply too. I'd check that wiring.
Thanks Wayne, a LOT! Now the big hassle begins as I have never disassembled a loco down to that level. I guess tomorrow I go hunting for wires that are not connected. On this one all I did was take apart the tender to install the decoder and it was a female dog. I have no idea what I'll find when I open the loco. I WISH there were either better disassembly instructions rather than an exploded drawing or a book on disassembling them. Every other hobby I have been involved in from building PC's, to wood working, to making balsa planes had detailed instructions. But this hobby assumes a body of knowledge that is difficult to aquire. Unless one has enough money to make mistakes and can toss locos he messes up.
Oh well. Such is life eh?
doctorwayne Paul_in_GA Dr. Wayne, I respectfully disagree. As a test I took two double-ended alligator test leads. Clipped one end of each to the rails. Now I have power at the other ends right? Then I set the loco to 1 on the CAB. I touched every combination of wheels on the tender and they all made the main loco's wheels move. I never once got any movement when I tried the same on the main driver wheels. Even the aft wheels on the loco are rubberized. So the main loco does not pick up power, just the tender, at least on this Bachmann 2-8-0. And sorry for your eyes glazing over. Not a problem, Paul, but two wheels on each tender truck are insulated, and there shouldn't have been any current flowing through them. The drivers are insulated at their axles, but all should have wipers bearing on the rear face of their tires - this is why the halves of the weight are insulated from one another. I still think that the problem lies within the plugs: the drivers feed power to the circuit board through one plug, then it's routed to the motor via the other. I've had poor connections between the plugs and poor connections between the wires and the contacts within the plugs, and eventually removed all of them (I run DC) re-wiring the loco so it will run without the tender or with the tender and none of the drivers on the track - works great for tamping ballast. Wayne
Paul_in_GA Dr. Wayne, I respectfully disagree. As a test I took two double-ended alligator test leads. Clipped one end of each to the rails. Now I have power at the other ends right? Then I set the loco to 1 on the CAB. I touched every combination of wheels on the tender and they all made the main loco's wheels move. I never once got any movement when I tried the same on the main driver wheels. Even the aft wheels on the loco are rubberized. So the main loco does not pick up power, just the tender, at least on this Bachmann 2-8-0. And sorry for your eyes glazing over.
Dr. Wayne, I respectfully disagree. As a test I took two double-ended alligator test leads. Clipped one end of each to the rails. Now I have power at the other ends right? Then I set the loco to 1 on the CAB. I touched every combination of wheels on the tender and they all made the main loco's wheels move. I never once got any movement when I tried the same on the main driver wheels. Even the aft wheels on the loco are rubberized. So the main loco does not pick up power, just the tender, at least on this Bachmann 2-8-0.
And sorry for your eyes glazing over.
Not a problem, Paul, but two wheels on each tender truck are insulated, and there shouldn't have been any current flowing through them. The drivers are insulated at their axles, but all should have wipers bearing on the rear face of their tires - this is why the halves of the weight are insulated from one another. I still think that the problem lies within the plugs: the drivers feed power to the circuit board through one plug, then it's routed to the motor via the other. I've had poor connections between the plugs and poor connections between the wires and the contacts within the plugs, and eventually removed all of them (I run DC) re-wiring the loco so it will run without the tender or with the tender and none of the drivers on the track - works great for tamping ballast.
Sorry about the misunderstanding Wayne but this is a Roundhouse product so it is different than what you describe. Only the aft driver wheels on this loco have rubber on them. All the tender wheels are powered.
Since you got no action using the drivers, my guess is that there's a fault within the plug that routes power from the drivers to the circuit board. When the loco stops in the turnout, touching the tender makes it work - there's a good chance that you're collecting current only from the tender, and for whatever reason the loco stops within the turnout, it's simply because two of those wheels momentarily lose contact.
My bust. This is a Roundhouse which is made by Athearn.
I am really sorry for any confusion.
Paul
ChadLRyan Hi Paul; I have to really question how none of the drivers pickup power, this almost 'drives me' to want to get one for that alone.. I have done that once (or 4 w/Diesels), when I did the whole Paintmask deal when weathering (Yes, my practice is to 'Chadley Rig'), the 9V to the motor leades & toothpic in mask before the weathering & dullcoat, & then peel it off later, should I remember...!!!! Could it be possible that such an effort was not corrected at the factory?If I was you, I would really examine the drivers & if they are not stepped (as in an obvious capture groove for a rubber tire), use an X-axto style knife to clear at least two wheels to provide some electrical contact & then test it.I think once those drivers start making contact you may have a real engine on your track. But who knows, we are not there, I hope you get her going, all the same..
Hi Paul;
I have to really question how none of the drivers pickup power, this almost 'drives me' to want to get one for that alone.. I have done that once (or 4 w/Diesels), when I did the whole Paintmask deal when weathering (Yes, my practice is to 'Chadley Rig'), the 9V to the motor leades & toothpic in mask before the weathering & dullcoat, & then peel it off later, should I remember...!!!! Could it be possible that such an effort was not corrected at the factory?If I was you, I would really examine the drivers & if they are not stepped (as in an obvious capture groove for a rubber tire), use an X-axto style knife to clear at least two wheels to provide some electrical contact & then test it.I think once those drivers start making contact you may have a real engine on your track.
But who knows, we are not there, I hope you get her going, all the same..
Well Chad, as I indicated above when tested with power none of the driver wheels on this particular loco moved. I applied power to all wheels in all combinations on both tender and loco. Only the tender wheels made the driver wheels move when power was applied to them via the alligator clips.
If someone else out there has the Roundhouse (which I thought was Bachmann) 2-8-0 model 84962 then perhaps they can try what I tried.
doctorwayne Wow! Eight pages, and unless I missed it because my eyes were glazing over, nobody mentioned that the Bachmann 2-8-0 picks-up power on all eight drivers and two wheels on one side of one tender truck and two wheels on the opposite side of the other tender truck. The first thing I'd like to know is what's sitting where when it stops. That should mean that all of the wheels on one side would need to be losing contact for the loco to stop. Instead, I'd check those plugs and the wires to them. Wayne
Wow! Eight pages, and unless I missed it because my eyes were glazing over, nobody mentioned that the Bachmann 2-8-0 picks-up power on all eight drivers and two wheels on one side of one tender truck and two wheels on the opposite side of the other tender truck. The first thing I'd like to know is what's sitting where when it stops. That should mean that all of the wheels on one side would need to be losing contact for the loco to stop. Instead, I'd check those plugs and the wires to them.
Paul_in_GA richhotrain modelmaker51 If all else fails, call up Bachmann, explain the problem, they'll probably tell you to send it in and replace it with a new one, their warranty is one of the best. And don't let one bad loco sour you sgainst a company, most all of the companies have had a bad loco or even a run, they all will try to make good on their warranties. While that is true about the warranty, the problem is that if Bachmann cannot repair the loco, it will offer to replace it with whatever it has on hand, Usually, that will be an entirely different loco from what you had sent in. Rich That's fine Rich. But when I spoke to them they seemed a little hostile, like it was my fault. I got a little defensive about it as I went out of my way to be cordial. The woman barked at me like a drill sargeant so they left a bad impression with me. She even barked at me that I'd have to pay $25 if they couldn't fix it. That's when I WANTED to tell her to power it up at full speed and drive it to a place where there is no sunshine but I didn't. All I thought was what a lousy person and a lousy company. I most definately will not pay $25 for them to fix crap, I'll toss it first and buy more expensive, higher quality stuff first. So all in all Bachmann is on my excrement list. If they want to send me something I don't care what road it is as I'm not doing a prototype, I would just like something that works.
richhotrain modelmaker51 If all else fails, call up Bachmann, explain the problem, they'll probably tell you to send it in and replace it with a new one, their warranty is one of the best. And don't let one bad loco sour you sgainst a company, most all of the companies have had a bad loco or even a run, they all will try to make good on their warranties. While that is true about the warranty, the problem is that if Bachmann cannot repair the loco, it will offer to replace it with whatever it has on hand, Usually, that will be an entirely different loco from what you had sent in. Rich
modelmaker51 If all else fails, call up Bachmann, explain the problem, they'll probably tell you to send it in and replace it with a new one, their warranty is one of the best. And don't let one bad loco sour you sgainst a company, most all of the companies have had a bad loco or even a run, they all will try to make good on their warranties.
If all else fails, call up Bachmann, explain the problem, they'll probably tell you to send it in and replace it with a new one, their warranty is one of the best. And don't let one bad loco sour you sgainst a company, most all of the companies have had a bad loco or even a run, they all will try to make good on their warranties.
While that is true about the warranty, the problem is that if Bachmann cannot repair the loco, it will offer to replace it with whatever it has on hand, Usually, that will be an entirely different loco from what you had sent in.
That's fine Rich. But when I spoke to them they seemed a little hostile, like it was my fault. I got a little defensive about it as I went out of my way to be cordial. The woman barked at me like a drill sargeant so they left a bad impression with me. She even barked at me that I'd have to pay $25 if they couldn't fix it. That's when I WANTED to tell her to power it up at full speed and drive it to a place where there is no sunshine but I didn't. All I thought was what a lousy person and a lousy company. I most definately will not pay $25 for them to fix crap, I'll toss it first and buy more expensive, higher quality stuff first.
So all in all Bachmann is on my excrement list.
If they want to send me something I don't care what road it is as I'm not doing a prototype, I would just like something that works.
My dad has a friend who calls it "Bachmann junk", and I don't blame them. I have a few of their items, but the majority of what I have come from Atlas and Athearn, with a mix of Model Power, Walthers, and some other companies.
The Lehigh Valley Railroad, the Route of the Black Diamond Express, John Wilkes and Maple Leaf.
-Jake, modeling the Barclay, Towanda & Susquehanna.
modelmaker51 Well I've read through all the posts, and I'm convinced the problem is somewhere in the tender's pickup. I noted that you stated that you screwed down the trucks as tight as possible and they still had some play., but maybe they now don't have enough play. This could cause a wheel to lose contact in a critical spot, especially with such a short wheelspan. Try backing off the screw on the rear truck about a quarter a turn and a half turn on the front truck. Experiment with a little and see if it makes a difference. If all else fails, call up Bachmann, explain the problem, they'll probably tell you to send it in and replace it with a new one, their warranty is one of the best. And don't let one bad loco sour you sgainst a company, most all of the companies have had a bad loco or even a run, they all will try to make good on their warranties.
Well I've read through all the posts, and I'm convinced the problem is somewhere in the tender's pickup. I noted that you stated that you screwed down the trucks as tight as possible and they still had some play., but maybe they now don't have enough play. This could cause a wheel to lose contact in a critical spot, especially with such a short wheelspan. Try backing off the screw on the rear truck about a quarter a turn and a half turn on the front truck. Experiment with a little and see if it makes a difference.
Thanks Jay. I already have one in and haven't heard from them in a long time. I was told they take a long time to get back to you.
As for the wheels, I'll try that but when I initially looked at them there was a LOT of slop, vertical slop. There's a stop so you can't get them even close to tight but I'll try it anyway.
I might send it in but that means taking out the decoder and although it may seem easy to you guys a newbie like me pulls my remaining hair out dealing with taking apart those tenders.
Thanks.
Jay
C-415 Build: https://imageshack.com/a/tShC/1
Other builds: https://imageshack.com/my/albums
richhotrain CV2. Maybe set it somewhere between 5 and 10 for starters. Play with it and see if it will keep to loco moving at speed step 1.
CV2.
Maybe set it somewhere between 5 and 10 for starters.
Play with it and see if it will keep to loco moving at speed step 1.
Tried putting all kinds of numbers in CV2. When I put in 100 as soon as I dialed in 1 it took off like a rocket! So I reset it back because 5-10 didn't do anything. at least I got the CV2 to program but I guess I'll just have to live with it at least till I try that frog juice board.
In the meantime I have the tunnel built out of hydrocal but now I have to wait till it cures till I stain it, I have to ballast under the tunnel or at least part of it, then I want to build a cardboard mountain mockup before I start cutting WS foam profile boards and foam.
Still working on the Mining company, have to airbrush the base of it black as brushing looks horrible so I have to get back up to speed with airbrushing, can't lay the track for IT till I get the mountain built so I can properly locate the mining company.
So I can finish painting the townhouse, and fifty million other things seemingly going at once.
This is a hobby within a hobby ad infinitum...
cjcrescent Paul, if you are still looking for a solution to the stalling problem, I presented a clinic on tuning up Spectrum's steam loco's several years ago at an NMRA meet. I put a shorter version of the clinic online several years ago. I have a 2-8-0 from the first run, did this procedure on it and I've had absolutely no stalling problems anywhere on my layout, or others. I have posted this procedure in another forum, but if you're interested in at least reading it, here is the address to the page the procedure is on. I can't seem to insert a clickable link. While this procedure for illustration purposes was done to a Decapod, it applies to all of Spectrum's steamers. http://www.modelrailroadforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11415&highlight=Spectrum+tune&page=3 You'll need to copy and paste it into your browser.
Paul, if you are still looking for a solution to the stalling problem, I presented a clinic on tuning up Spectrum's steam loco's several years ago at an NMRA meet. I put a shorter version of the clinic online several years ago.
I have a 2-8-0 from the first run, did this procedure on it and I've had absolutely no stalling problems anywhere on my layout, or others.
I have posted this procedure in another forum, but if you're interested in at least reading it, here is the address to the page the procedure is on. I can't seem to insert a clickable link. While this procedure for illustration purposes was done to a Decapod, it applies to all of Spectrum's steamers.
http://www.modelrailroadforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11415&highlight=Spectrum+tune&page=3
You'll need to copy and paste it into your browser.
Thanks Carey.
I have saved that page. However, something like this is hundreds of thousands of miles over my head. First I have no manual to break it down except for the cheesy exploded diagram but to me that's as useless as toilet paper. Second, I feel that if I try to disassemble it and can't get it back together properly I'll just have to toss it. Add in the trillions of tiny parts and well, you get the picture. I have never done anything more major than putting a decoder in that Bachmann loco.
Thanks for the info. Hope I can remember that if and when I need to add a link!
Carey
Keep it between the Rails
Alabama Central Homepage
Nara member #128
NMRA &SER Life member
cjcrescent Thank you Rich. How do you add a link like that onto the forums?
Thank you Rich. How do you add a link like that onto the forums?
Glad to help.
There are probably other ways to do it but I did a copy and paste to Notebook and then a copy and paste back into the forum thread.
Paul_in_GA richhotrain CV2. Maybe set it somewhere between 5 and 10 for starters. Play with it and see if it will keep to loco moving at speed step 1. I have a TCS T1A decoder. It says in the pamphlet that CV2 "Start volts -- Set the voltage when the throttle is first applied."
I have a TCS T1A decoder. It says in the pamphlet that CV2 "Start volts -- Set the voltage when the throttle is first applied."
Rich, CV's next.
I just checked the turnout with my VOM. Now I'm real good with these meters, used them since 1981.
Here's what I did.
I OHM'd out the turnout by placing an alligator clip lead to both ends of a rail before and after the turnout, ditto on the other rail. While they were clipped I heard my meter ringing, good continuity.
While I did this I lifted the turnout and wiggled the crap out of it trying to see if there was a loose wire and if there was the ringing would stop. It passed with flying colors. I even rang out the frog during a wiggle check and it was fine too. So in my opinion it HAS to be the loco because it does it on other turnouts, and others have had the same problem.
Bachman, NEVER, EVER again. Someone could GIVE me a Bachmann and I'd toss it in the garbage.
wp8thsub Paul_in_GA Thanks Rob, looking into it [a Frog Juicer] now. How do you wire it up? Just one wire to the frog? Does it come with installation instructions? The juicer comes with easy to follow instructions. As I noted earlier, you connect the track bus to the juicer with two wires, and run a single wire to the frog. You can mount the juicer under your roadbed with screws or foam tape. Installation could not be simpler.
Paul_in_GA Thanks Rob, looking into it [a Frog Juicer] now. How do you wire it up? Just one wire to the frog? Does it come with installation instructions?
Thanks Rob, looking into it [a Frog Juicer] now. How do you wire it up? Just one wire to the frog? Does it come with installation instructions?
The juicer comes with easy to follow instructions. As I noted earlier, you connect the track bus to the juicer with two wires, and run a single wire to the frog. You can mount the juicer under your roadbed with screws or foam tape. Installation could not be simpler.
Hi Rob, on order. Hopefully this will fix it.
Rob Spangler
Paul_in_GA richhotrain Lube the gears and set the CVs higher to kick start that little sucker. Gotta wait till next week to go to the LHS.
richhotrain Lube the gears and set the CVs higher to kick start that little sucker.
Lube the gears and set the CVs higher to kick start that little sucker.
Gotta wait till next week to go to the LHS.
Pick up two items. Gear lube and light motor oil.
OK, will start with that. Will let you know in a little while. I have real world stuff to do for now.
Have to figure out how to do the CV's. I THOUGHT I knew when I tried before but it never "took", I suppose all decoders are different? I have the insert that came with the decoder and the NCE guide is easy to follow. I'll have to try that. Which CV should I adjust?
richhotrain Just smear it on lightly with your finger.
Just smear it on lightly with your finger.
I used a toothpick and put it inside the frog and it still does the same thing. &*^%$#* Bachmann urinates me off!!!
richhotrain Paul_in_GA richhotrain Paul_in_GA All I have is some old 3-In-One oil which I am loathe to use. Remain loathe. Use only plastic compatible light oil. Although, as a test, I would not be reluctant to use a silicone stick or petroleum jelly. Then wipe it off. We are just trying to determine if it will ease the resistance enough to prevent stalling at the slowest speeds. Rich Well, I have no silicone, could use vaseline, BUT, it still stalls slightly even at higher power settings but only on that one switch. Hmm, I thought it only stalled at the slowest speed step?
Paul_in_GA richhotrain Paul_in_GA All I have is some old 3-In-One oil which I am loathe to use. Remain loathe. Use only plastic compatible light oil. Although, as a test, I would not be reluctant to use a silicone stick or petroleum jelly. Then wipe it off. We are just trying to determine if it will ease the resistance enough to prevent stalling at the slowest speeds. Rich Well, I have no silicone, could use vaseline, BUT, it still stalls slightly even at higher power settings but only on that one switch.
richhotrain Paul_in_GA All I have is some old 3-In-One oil which I am loathe to use. Remain loathe. Use only plastic compatible light oil. Although, as a test, I would not be reluctant to use a silicone stick or petroleum jelly. Then wipe it off. We are just trying to determine if it will ease the resistance enough to prevent stalling at the slowest speeds. Rich
Paul_in_GA All I have is some old 3-In-One oil which I am loathe to use.
All I have is some old 3-In-One oil which I am loathe to use.
Remain loathe.
Use only plastic compatible light oil.
Although, as a test, I would not be reluctant to use a silicone stick or petroleum jelly. Then wipe it off.
We are just trying to determine if it will ease the resistance enough to prevent stalling at the slowest speeds.
Well, I have no silicone, could use vaseline, BUT, it still stalls slightly even at higher power settings but only on that one switch.
Hmm, I thought it only stalled at the slowest speed step?
Nope, I posted earlier that at that same spot it now stalls for a second and the light goes out even at a setting of 10. I'm ready to use vaseline, should I still use it? I can apply a tiny amount with a toothpick.
Incidentally, I checked and petroleum jelly is totally compatible with plastics and synthetic rubbers.
Paul_in_GA I will never buy Bachmann again.
I will never buy Bachmann again.
LOL
While I feel the same way, others don't. Sheldon?
Well, I have no silicone, could use vaseline, BUT, it still stalls slightly even at higher power settings but only on that one switch. I guess it's a poor design of either the track or the loco, ESPECIALLY the loco. Two Bachmann's with problems. Sent in the 44 tonner and STILL haven't heard back from those people. I will never buy Bachmann again.
richhotrain Or use some plastic compatible light oil - - - anything - - - just to see if you can reduce the resistance.
Or use some plastic compatible light oil - - - anything - - - just to see if you can reduce the resistance.
Paul_in_GA selector BTW, is this a sound locomotive? Crandell Nope, no sound.
selector BTW, is this a sound locomotive? Crandell
BTW, is this a sound locomotive?
Nope, no sound.
What did you have in mind there, Crandell?
How about a light smear from a silicone stick?
It is just a test to see if you can eliminate the physical resistance.
Then wipe it off.
selector If there really is just a tad of resistance at the frog, and not of the electrical kind, then the CV-fiddling for the motor would probably help. However, I would not entertain the thought of putting a grease or vaseline anywhere on my tracks, not even the flange face, for scale trains. BTW, is this a sound locomotive? Crandell
If there really is just a tad of resistance at the frog, and not of the electrical kind, then the CV-fiddling for the motor would probably help. However, I would not entertain the thought of putting a grease or vaseline anywhere on my tracks, not even the flange face, for scale trains.
wp8thsub Paul_in_GASo maybe it IS the track but then again the other locos are fine there. ...Ready for sledgehammer! As has already been mentioned, the turnout in question (I have a few Walthers 83 turnouts also) has a large dead frog area. Any loco with finicky power pickup can stall on the frog, despite being able to apparently run just fine elsewhere. My money is on the locomotive losing contact being the problem due to an intermittent open circuit in its power pickup, but this isn't necessarily something you have to correct. Nobody so far has suggested this possible solution that I could see, so here goes... My suggestion is to power the frog using a Tam Valley "Frog Juicer." http://www.tamvalleydepot.com/products/dccpowerfrogjuicers.html Solder a feeder to one side of the frog, being careful to not melt any plastic, and run the feeder to the juicer, which takes input current from the track bus. Installation is that simple. The juicer is an auto-reversing curcuit that powers the frog for the appropriate polarity depending on which direction you're running through the turnout. I have juicers on some turnouts with larger isolated frogs and they cured the few instances of stalling I had. Follow the link - the mono-juicer (for one turnout) is on sale through Monday for $9.95. I just about guarantee it will solve your problem.
Paul_in_GASo maybe it IS the track but then again the other locos are fine there. ...Ready for sledgehammer!
...Ready for sledgehammer!
As has already been mentioned, the turnout in question (I have a few Walthers 83 turnouts also) has a large dead frog area. Any loco with finicky power pickup can stall on the frog, despite being able to apparently run just fine elsewhere. My money is on the locomotive losing contact being the problem due to an intermittent open circuit in its power pickup, but this isn't necessarily something you have to correct.
Nobody so far has suggested this possible solution that I could see, so here goes...
My suggestion is to power the frog using a Tam Valley "Frog Juicer." http://www.tamvalleydepot.com/products/dccpowerfrogjuicers.html Solder a feeder to one side of the frog, being careful to not melt any plastic, and run the feeder to the juicer, which takes input current from the track bus. Installation is that simple. The juicer is an auto-reversing curcuit that powers the frog for the appropriate polarity depending on which direction you're running through the turnout. I have juicers on some turnouts with larger isolated frogs and they cured the few instances of stalling I had. Follow the link - the mono-juicer (for one turnout) is on sale through Monday for $9.95. I just about guarantee it will solve your problem.
Thanks Rob, looking into it now. How do you wire it up? Just one wire to the frog? Does it come with installation instructions?
wp8thsub Nobody so far has suggested this possible solution that I could see, so here goes... My suggestion is to power the frog using a Tam Valley "Frog Juicer."
My suggestion is to power the frog using a Tam Valley "Frog Juicer."
Rob, I hate you, LOL, just kidding. Darn, I wanted to suggest that but didn't.
If you just put the petroleum jelly on the dead parts of the frog, it won't affect conductivity but might be enough to overcome any physical resistance by the loco at slow speeds.
richhotrain Paul_in_GA richhotrain Paul_in_GA OK, I'm in the process of running it through every turnout and it stuck again on another Walthers #5 RH going straight! So it's NOT the track it HAS to be that #$%^&*#@ loco! Just gotta run it at 2 or higher. This is the second Bachmann I have had problems with. Before you give up on speed step #1, lube the gears and see if that solves the problem. Rich Stuck at THIRD Walthers frog on the straight! I'd LIKE to lube it but I don't have any lube and have never done it before. Put a light coat of petroleum jelly on the frogs. Just use a stick of lip balm.
Paul_in_GA richhotrain Paul_in_GA OK, I'm in the process of running it through every turnout and it stuck again on another Walthers #5 RH going straight! So it's NOT the track it HAS to be that #$%^&*#@ loco! Just gotta run it at 2 or higher. This is the second Bachmann I have had problems with. Before you give up on speed step #1, lube the gears and see if that solves the problem. Rich Stuck at THIRD Walthers frog on the straight! I'd LIKE to lube it but I don't have any lube and have never done it before.
richhotrain Paul_in_GA OK, I'm in the process of running it through every turnout and it stuck again on another Walthers #5 RH going straight! So it's NOT the track it HAS to be that #$%^&*#@ loco! Just gotta run it at 2 or higher. This is the second Bachmann I have had problems with. Before you give up on speed step #1, lube the gears and see if that solves the problem. Rich
Paul_in_GA OK, I'm in the process of running it through every turnout and it stuck again on another Walthers #5 RH going straight! So it's NOT the track it HAS to be that #$%^&*#@ loco! Just gotta run it at 2 or higher. This is the second Bachmann I have had problems with.
OK, I'm in the process of running it through every turnout and it stuck again on another Walthers #5 RH going straight! So it's NOT the track it HAS to be that #$%^&*#@ loco!
Just gotta run it at 2 or higher.
This is the second Bachmann I have had problems with.
Before you give up on speed step #1, lube the gears and see if that solves the problem.
Stuck at THIRD Walthers frog on the straight!
I'd LIKE to lube it but I don't have any lube and have never done it before.
Put a light coat of petroleum jelly on the frogs. Just use a stick of lip balm.
How will that help? Won't that impede current flow? Do I put it on the rails or on the base of the frog?
I would like some scotch but I stopped drinking a long time ago. But I can have a virtual beer.
selector The other locos are 'other' locos. Different. Apparently/possibly better at pickup and getting across spots that have iffy connectivity. Longer steamers do better than your little 2-8-0. I take it that you have metered the rails at the point of stall? Ahead of the loco, under it, under the tender, and behind the tender. If you find a dead spot, press down somewhere on the rails ahead, under, and behind the loco/tender. If you get power, then it is in the turnout or on either end of it. The suggestion to figgle with 'dither' or BEMF settings is a good one. Maybe your motor stalls at a point where the voltage is low when you only run it at very slow speeds across this one turnout. You'll have to get into the CV manual for the decoder to figure out how to get the motor to draw more current than it does at speed step 'one'. Crandell
The other locos are 'other' locos. Different. Apparently/possibly better at pickup and getting across spots that have iffy connectivity. Longer steamers do better than your little 2-8-0.
I take it that you have metered the rails at the point of stall? Ahead of the loco, under it, under the tender, and behind the tender. If you find a dead spot, press down somewhere on the rails ahead, under, and behind the loco/tender. If you get power, then it is in the turnout or on either end of it.
The suggestion to figgle with 'dither' or BEMF settings is a good one. Maybe your motor stalls at a point where the voltage is low when you only run it at very slow speeds across this one turnout. You'll have to get into the CV manual for the decoder to figure out how to get the motor to draw more current than it does at speed step 'one'.
Or put a helper loco behind that 2-8-0.
Thanks Crandell, will try that too.
Paul_in_GA richhotrain You can also mess with the CV settings to kick start the motor at lower speeds. Rich Now it even hiccups at that original point at a setting of 10! So maybe it IS the track but then again the other locos are fine there. ARGH!! Ready for sledgehammer!
richhotrain You can also mess with the CV settings to kick start the motor at lower speeds. Rich
You can also mess with the CV settings to kick start the motor at lower speeds.
Now it even hiccups at that original point at a setting of 10! So maybe it IS the track but then again the other locos are fine there.
ARGH!!
Ready for sledgehammer!
Head for the beer cooler or wine cellar or wherever you store your best scotch.
Your LHS will have the appropriate gear lube.
Paul_in_GA richhotrain Paul_in_GA Exactly. I used a bright light and a magnifying glass to look at it while it does it. Like I said, I set it to 0 and keep an eye on the light. If I wiggle the FORWARD truck, the one NOT on the insulated part of the frog the light comes on and goes off AS I wiggle it. Paul, I'm not sure what you mean by the bright light. Was is it you are referring to? Rich Flashlight so bright it will literally blind a person.
richhotrain Paul_in_GA Exactly. I used a bright light and a magnifying glass to look at it while it does it. Like I said, I set it to 0 and keep an eye on the light. If I wiggle the FORWARD truck, the one NOT on the insulated part of the frog the light comes on and goes off AS I wiggle it. Paul, I'm not sure what you mean by the bright light. Was is it you are referring to? Rich
Paul_in_GA Exactly. I used a bright light and a magnifying glass to look at it while it does it. Like I said, I set it to 0 and keep an eye on the light. If I wiggle the FORWARD truck, the one NOT on the insulated part of the frog the light comes on and goes off AS I wiggle it.
Exactly. I used a bright light and a magnifying glass to look at it while it does it. Like I said, I set it to 0 and keep an eye on the light. If I wiggle the FORWARD truck, the one NOT on the insulated part of the frog the light comes on and goes off AS I wiggle it.
Paul, I'm not sure what you mean by the bright light. Was is it you are referring to?
Flashlight so bright it will literally blind a person.
Oh, that kind of bright light.
richhotrain You mentioned that the stall is only on the outer curve. How about the guard rail opposite the frog next to the outer stock rail? Is the guard rail level with the stock rail, not raised above it? Are the ends of the guard rail sharp? Sometimes, you have to file them slightly to get them a little bit rounded. The ends of the guard rail could be lifting the truck. Rich
You mentioned that the stall is only on the outer curve.
How about the guard rail opposite the frog next to the outer stock rail?
Is the guard rail level with the stock rail, not raised above it?
Are the ends of the guard rail sharp? Sometimes, you have to file them slightly to get them a little bit rounded. The ends of the guard rail could be lifting the truck.
Fine.
richhotrain Paul_in_GA I ran it forward at 1, it stops. I ran it backwards at 1, no problem. Then I turned the loco completely around and tried it. Now it'll stop in the same spot when in forward direction but physically turned around. But it is intermittent. So, it only stalls in the forward direction at the slowest speed. At what point? When the rear tender truck reaches the frog? Rich
Paul_in_GA I ran it forward at 1, it stops. I ran it backwards at 1, no problem. Then I turned the loco completely around and tried it. Now it'll stop in the same spot when in forward direction but physically turned around. But it is intermittent.
I ran it forward at 1, it stops.
I ran it backwards at 1, no problem.
Then I turned the loco completely around and tried it.
Now it'll stop in the same spot when in forward direction but physically turned around. But it is intermittent.
So, it only stalls in the forward direction at the slowest speed.
At what point?
When the rear tender truck reaches the frog?
richhotrain For what it is worth, and I know not what, does it stall moving through the outer curve, or inner curve, or both curves? Rich
For what it is worth, and I know not what, does it stall moving through the outer curve, or inner curve, or both curves?
LOL! Detective! Thanks Rich, that's how I would troubleshoot jets. Try everything using logic and taking notes.
Nope, only the outer curve, nowhere else on the layout. But now I'm gonna go back and DOUBLE check that, both ways!
Interesting, Detective Paul.
I wonder if the gears need a little lube. Myabe there is just enough resistance at the lowest speeds to hold it up. That could explain why it doesn't stall in reverse.
richhotrain Paul_in_GA Rich, I tried the alligator clips and put power to everywhere around that point with no help. OK, so there is power on every point of that turnout. I went down and looked at my 7.5 curved turnout. That dead frog occupies a large area and that tender wheelbase is really small. It may just be that there is a complete loss of power as both trucks sit on the frog. Position the loco on the turnout so that both trucks are on the frog, Is any portion of either truck on powered rails? You may have to settle for running at step 2 or higher. Rich
Paul_in_GA Rich, I tried the alligator clips and put power to everywhere around that point with no help.
Rich, I tried the alligator clips and put power to everywhere around that point with no help.
OK, so there is power on every point of that turnout.
I went down and looked at my 7.5 curved turnout. That dead frog occupies a large area and that tender wheelbase is really small. It may just be that there is a complete loss of power as both trucks sit on the frog.
Position the loco on the turnout so that both trucks are on the frog, Is any portion of either truck on powered rails?
You may have to settle for running at step 2 or higher.
Thanks Rich, you've been a great help.
I just tried THIS:
Stalling at slow speeds but running through at higher speeds doesn't tell you much because it could be coasting through without power.
Without swapping the trucks, just run it in forward and reverse on the first speed step. If ti stalls either way, it is not one of the trucks unless it is both trucks.
steemtrayn Swap the tender trucks. If the rear truck still does what it did when it was the front truck, it might be the culprit.
Swap the tender trucks. If the rear truck still does what it did when it was the front truck, it might be the culprit.
Also, why does this only happen at 1 and not 2 or higher? I mean, I'll never use it at 1 on that curve but methinks there's still a problem.
It's starting to look like that. I let it run on 1 till it stops.
Turn it to 0 but keep the light on.
The SLIGHTEST pressure, almost blowing on the tender will make the light come on and go off.
Only one problem. I am not good at swapping trucks, especially wired ones. Do I have to desolder the wires and resolder them?
Dave
Just be glad you don't have to press "2" for English.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQ_ALEdDUB8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hqFS1GZL4s
http://s73.photobucket.com/user/steemtrayn/media/MovingcoalontheDCM.mp4.html?sort=3&o=27
Paul_in_GA Will try this as soon as I get a chance. I have the schematic as to where to place the wire. I can use lengths of wire with alligator clips attached to make it easier.
Will try this as soon as I get a chance. I have the schematic as to where to place the wire. I can use lengths of wire with alligator clips attached to make it easier.
That will work too.
There are lots of primitive ways to test for power or loss thereof.
I do this after relocating double crossovers. Sometimes, after moving and relocating specialty tracks and turnouts, a loss of power is common due to the delicate nature of the jumpers underneath the turnout.
RIch
I also keep a small 12 volt incandescent bulb on hand with a pair of thin gauge stranded wire attached to the bulb, one on the side and one on the base.
I use this bulb to test for power.
You can move the two wires around to find power losses where the bulb does not light when the wires touch the rails.
This can be useful in finding a loss of power on rail segments on a turnout.
richhotrain If there are any doubts about power reaching every segment of rail, you can take two lengths of household wire like 14 gauge wire and make your own temporary jumpers. I have two 5 inch lengths with the plastic insulation stripped off each end. Each length is bent in a U-shape. I hold each length of wire against a known powered section of rail and the other end to the problem piece of rail. That is sufficient to transfer power to the unpowered section of track if indeed it is unpowered. With those two lengths held in place, the loco will pass through if lack of power is the problem. Rich
If there are any doubts about power reaching every segment of rail, you can take two lengths of household wire like 14 gauge wire and make your own temporary jumpers.
I have two 5 inch lengths with the plastic insulation stripped off each end.
Each length is bent in a U-shape.
I hold each length of wire against a known powered section of rail and the other end to the problem piece of rail.
That is sufficient to transfer power to the unpowered section of track if indeed it is unpowered.
With those two lengths held in place, the loco will pass through if lack of power is the problem.
Paul_in_GA richhotrain Adhesive wheel weights are small flat steel weights, usually weighing 1/4 ounce each, that have double sided tape attached to them. You can buy them at any automotive supply store. Rich Thanks Rich but I don't know if even THAT will help because if I put a heavy flashlight on the tender it will STILL stop. So it's looking more and more like a track electrical problem. This is making me
richhotrain Adhesive wheel weights are small flat steel weights, usually weighing 1/4 ounce each, that have double sided tape attached to them. You can buy them at any automotive supply store. Rich
Adhesive wheel weights are small flat steel weights, usually weighing 1/4 ounce each, that have double sided tape attached to them. You can buy them at any automotive supply store.
Thanks Rich but I don't know if even THAT will help because if I put a heavy flashlight on the tender it will STILL stop. So it's looking more and more like a track electrical problem.
This is making me
I agree. I am giving up on the weights.
I also have my doubts that the loco is at fault.
I am focusing from afar on the curved turnout.
richhotrain Now, we are going to really get basic. Are the rails on the curved turnout clean? Rich
Now, we are going to really get basic.
Are the rails on the curved turnout clean?
Yes, I sanded them with 400 then 1200, then wiped them down.
cjcrescent Paul_in_GA Well it kinda makes it clear but what ones are the points and where is the insulation spots between the frog? I'll print it out and compare it to the turnout, I also need to look at a diagram I have in a book about definitions, like stock rails. I'm a newbie at this, I can do it I just don't want to mess it up. Here's another drawing, with the parts labeled. I have this time included the approximate location of the gaps that make the frog a non-powered one. The rest of the parts are also labeled, and just for simplicity, I called one side + and the other -. They are also colored to show the electrical relationship of the parts to each other. You can either "replace" the jumpers as I said in my earlier posts or substitute feeders. Since the problem only seems to be happening when you attempt to go thru the turnout along the "straight" side, I would suggest that you add the feeder approximately where the circle is. You could of course add all new jumpers in the approximate locations shown on the drawing, as I originally suggested in my original answer. Adding just the one feeder would be easiest.
Paul_in_GA Well it kinda makes it clear but what ones are the points and where is the insulation spots between the frog? I'll print it out and compare it to the turnout, I also need to look at a diagram I have in a book about definitions, like stock rails. I'm a newbie at this, I can do it I just don't want to mess it up.
Well it kinda makes it clear but what ones are the points and where is the insulation spots between the frog?
I'll print it out and compare it to the turnout, I also need to look at a diagram I have in a book about definitions, like stock rails. I'm a newbie at this, I can do it I just don't want to mess it up.
Here's another drawing, with the parts labeled. I have this time included the approximate location of the gaps that make the frog a non-powered one. The rest of the parts are also labeled, and just for simplicity, I called one side + and the other -. They are also colored to show the electrical relationship of the parts to each other. You can either "replace" the jumpers as I said in my earlier posts or substitute feeders.
Since the problem only seems to be happening when you attempt to go thru the turnout along the "straight" side, I would suggest that you add the feeder approximately where the circle is. You could of course add all new jumpers in the approximate locations shown on the drawing, as I originally suggested in my original answer.
Adding just the one feeder would be easiest.
Carey, this helps a LOT. Thanks. I might just add feeders as I have a 4 x 8 and it's powered by only one set of wires soldered to the track on the opposite side. Still have not had a chance to put the VOM on it but I doubt I'd find anything because just touching it with the leads will be enough to make it work if it is indeed a bad set of wires under the track.
It works on setting 2 and higher , just not 1. So I'm not sure what it is.
richhotrain Paul_in_GA richhotrain I would also add weight to the tender right over the trucks. And, I would play with the trucks, tightening and loosening the screws that hold the trucks to the tender chassis to see if that will help. Rich Good advice Brad and Rich. I will check with the gauge right now and check the trucks. As for adding weight, well, I took it apart when I first got it and installed a decoder. Now it's so tight you couldn't fit a fart in there let alone weight. How about under the tender using steel brake weights? Rich
Paul_in_GA richhotrain I would also add weight to the tender right over the trucks. And, I would play with the trucks, tightening and loosening the screws that hold the trucks to the tender chassis to see if that will help. Rich Good advice Brad and Rich. I will check with the gauge right now and check the trucks. As for adding weight, well, I took it apart when I first got it and installed a decoder. Now it's so tight you couldn't fit a fart in there let alone weight.
richhotrain I would also add weight to the tender right over the trucks. And, I would play with the trucks, tightening and loosening the screws that hold the trucks to the tender chassis to see if that will help. Rich
I would also add weight to the tender right over the trucks.
And, I would play with the trucks, tightening and loosening the screws that hold the trucks to the tender chassis to see if that will help.
Good advice Brad and Rich. I will check with the gauge right now and check the trucks.
As for adding weight, well, I took it apart when I first got it and installed a decoder. Now it's so tight you couldn't fit a fart in there let alone weight.
How about under the tender using steel brake weights?
OK, where do I get these weights and how do I install them?
Brad, I just checked with the gauge and they're perfect.
Rich, trucks seem fine, because of the way they're made there is a little slop to them despite how tight I make the screws.
It ONLY does this at 1. Not 2 or higher. I have no idea what's going on. If I push down on the tender or the track in the slightest it'll move. It HAS to be something not allowing the forward truck to get power at such a slow speed.
Here is another long shot thought.
You mention that at the slowest speeds, the rear truck of the tender stalls on the frog.
Is the front truck actually receiving power.
Yours is a steam engine, but I have had more than one diesel where only one truck is picking up power, resulting in stalls at slow speeds over the frog where the one truck picking up power is riding slowly over a dead frog. That would explain no stalls at higher speeds where the loco coasts over dead spots without stalling.
To test that, move the loco to a straight section of track and run it at the slowest speed. The lift up the rear portion of the tender and see if the loco is still receiving power from the front truck.
One thing that I and others have written about before on this forum is the absolute necessity to build a stable base under a curved turnout. My curved turnouts used to sit on Woodland Scenics Foam Track Bed which sits on a 1/2 inch plywood surface. A few years back, I began placing a large thin piece of styrene sheet completely under the entire curved turnout. That ensures that all of the rails on the turnout are level and even. I don't know if that is your problem but from all of the symptoms that you mention, it is something to consider. Stabilize the curved turnout as much as possible.
Paul - use your NMRA gauge and check the gauge on the wheelsets. I'm suspecting they may be slightly wide or narrow.
Brad
EMD - Every Model Different
ALCO - Always Leaking Coolant and Oil
CSX - Coal Spilling eXperts
richhotrain Oh that's right, Paul is talking about a curved turnout so he only has the one to work with. If he has other steam locos, can he run those steamers through the turnout in reverse at low speeds? If he can, then I would rule out the turnout and focus on the loco. If he can't, then I would rule out the loco and focus on the turnout. Right now, we just don't know who is the offender. Rich
Oh that's right, Paul is talking about a curved turnout so he only has the one to work with.
If he has other steam locos, can he run those steamers through the turnout in reverse at low speeds?
If he can, then I would rule out the turnout and focus on the loco.
If he can't, then I would rule out the loco and focus on the turnout.
Right now, we just don't know who is the offender.
First, thank you all for helping.
Let's get the basics down.
1. It is OK in reverse, I was mistaken.
2. The truck on the tender swivels perfectly.
3. When I run a straightedge along the track all the way past the frog it does not get hung up.
4. It does not bind as I originally thought.
5. It stops right when the rear wheels are on the rail where it is insulated.
6. When it does get stuck I can wiggle the forward truck and it'll get juice.
Conclusion? It appears as if something is lifting the forward truck causing it to lose power. The other locos are fine because they are long enough to pick up power. The tender's wheels are close together.
I have not had a chance to put my VOM on it yet (I will though) but it has to be getting power because if I wiggle that truck or push down on it it moves. This only happens at the absolutely lowest setting of 1.
I removed some flash and filed down the frog base but I get the feeling something is lifting the truck.
One more clue and this is baffling. When it's stuck if I push on the FOAM on the table it'll move. So it seems like flexing the track helps too.
I don't have anything at all to replace it.
I'm not aware that he does, unless he has a recent purchase, but I will see if I can arrange another visit to help him troubleshoot - if he doesn't track down the problem before.
Since I helped Paul lay the track, I can help offer some insight. He is working with a Walthers RH curved turnout, as stated in the original post. My question is, did Paul check the wheel gauge on the tender? If it's a bit tight or wide, that could cause the wheels to be lifted by the wing or guard rails or frog. Also check the flange depth, but since this is a new model, I doubt this is the issue. Paul said he checked the turnout, I believe, but I don't know if he checked the model. This should have been done first, since his others seem to have no problems.
If the wheelsets check out fine, then it's time to focus on the turnout. Since Paul's trackplan only has one such turnout, swapping it isn't an option. I'd second the suggestion of fully checking the T/O with the VOM, make sure every last inch is getting power. Assuming this has been done and checks out OK, then it's time to check and see why the tender wheels are being lifted. Theoretically, if the T/O and wheels all check out with the NMRA gauge, there shouldn't be a reason for this. I'd check to make sure the trucks turn and swivel freely, and have a little bit of "rock" to them. I'd check the frog and guard rails for plastic flash and remove it if present.
This whole discussion seems to be getting much more complicated than it needs to be.
The first question that I have about the most recent part of this thread is: what happened Paul when you slid that straight edge along the rails to the frog as superbe suggested? Did it pass easily over the frog or did it get hung up?
Secondly, you can add feeders to the rails on all three ends of the turnout without causing a short unless the turnout leads into or out of a reverse loop. But, if the power pick up wheels are being lifted off the rails by a raised frog, then the feeders aren't going to solve the problem.
Third, Atlas doesn't make electrofrog turnouts. The point rails get their from the jumpers on the underside of the turnout, not from powering the frog.
Fourth, as I recall from your original post at the beginning of the thread, the loss of power only occurs at the slowest speeds as the loco is moving in reverse. So the power pickup wheels on the tender are the affected area as they try to move through the frog. At slow speeds, they bind. At higher speeds, the wheels get through the frog without binding.
One thing you might do is to temporarily replace the offending turnout with a spare or if you don't have a spare, swap the offending turnout with another turnout from your layout. That way, you can eliminate the tender as the problem and focus on the turnout.
I still say that a light filing of the sides and base of the frog ought to solve the problem if, indeed, the frog is the problem.
If the affected loco goes through the turnout in forward and doesn't get hung up, and if other locos all get through the turnout at slow speeds without a problem, forward and reverse, then the problem with the turnout is not the jumpers but the tight frog. You gotta pin that down, close in on the true source of the problem. You are still in the investigative stage.
cjcrescent They say a picture is worth a thousand words. See if this makes it clear enough for you, Paul.
They say a picture is worth a thousand words. See if this makes it clear enough for you, Paul.
Thanks a lot, I appreciate it, heading to bed, maybe it'll make more sense when I'm more alert.
if you can come up with a couple of old dental scrapers, you will find them invaluable for working on switch frogs.
charlie
cjcrescent First thing I would do is to take a VOM meter, and check to see if there is voltage here when the probes of the meter is barely touching the rails. You can also check this using the Ohm's setting on the meter. If not, then I suspect that the metal jumpers underneath the rails have become unattached to the rails on one or both of the jumpers. The solution then is to either temporarily remove the turnout, turn it over and determine which jumper is loose and repair it. If it can't be removed, then just run some feeders to the rails. Your problem sounds just like there is a loss of power across the jumpers, but when the rail is pressed down a little, power is restored as the jumpers are now making contact on the underside of the rails again.
First thing I would do is to take a VOM meter, and check to see if there is voltage here when the probes of the meter is barely touching the rails. You can also check this using the Ohm's setting on the meter. If not, then I suspect that the metal jumpers underneath the rails have become unattached to the rails on one or both of the jumpers.
The solution then is to either temporarily remove the turnout, turn it over and determine which jumper is loose and repair it. If it can't be removed, then just run some feeders to the rails. Your problem sounds just like there is a loss of power across the jumpers, but when the rail is pressed down a little, power is restored as the jumpers are now making contact on the underside of the rails again.
Carey, thanks. That's what I think also. I can't remove it so could you tell me which rails to run feeders to to avoid shorts?
First thing I would do is to take a VOM meter, and check to see if there is a circuit here when the probes of the meter is barely touching the rails. If not, then I suspect that the metal jumpers underneath the rails have become unattached to the rails on one or both of the jumpers.
Eric97123 Before you start cutting up the frog, make sure you have power at all ends of the turout. I have had a few Atlas turnouts that would do the same thing, the switch was not making contact at times. So having power via feeders at all sides fixed that problem. So when I built my current layout or add a new siding I make sure I have feeders going to all the sides of the turnout. No problems since!
Before you start cutting up the frog, make sure you have power at all ends of the turout. I have had a few Atlas turnouts that would do the same thing, the switch was not making contact at times. So having power via feeders at all sides fixed that problem. So when I built my current layout or add a new siding I make sure I have feeders going to all the sides of the turnout. No problems since!
Eric, is your system DCC?
This is what I've discovered so far through troubleshooting. First it works fine at speeds above 2.
I used a bright flashlight and a magnifying lens to look at the wheels when it happens. This is a Bachmann 2-8-0 and it gets its power from the tender wheels (you probably already know this), so what I did was set the NCE controller to 1 and let it move ever so slowly through the frog area till it stops.
Then I turn the knob on the CAB to zero but leave the loco's headlight on as this ONLY happens going forward, not reverse.
It will stop every time. So I took my needle file and moved the forward truck around till the headlight would come on and go off.
It looks like when the rear set of tender wheels are between the insulated part of the frog the forward set somehow doesn't make good enough contact. If I wiggle them slightly the light goes on and off.
Two other locos are fine at the same speed, a Baldwin VO-1000 and a U23B. It's just this Bachman and only at this one turnout, the non-diverging part.
I was thinking about adding feeder wires to the turnout but I don't want a short. But then again if I add feeder wires to the track what difference would it make because it WILL pick up electrical power when wiggled.
I filed down the frog base but that didn't help. I made SURE everything was spotless so nothing would impede current flow.
Anyway, just curious, IF you have a DCC system could you tell me exactly what rails to add feeders to so I don't short out the system? I am really good with electrical stuff but railroads are entirely different than what I'm used to because of this insulated frog and I know there's hidden wires underneath built in. I'm still trying to wrap my mind around that concept.
gondola1988 If its an Atlas switch the problem is the switch, some are warped from the factory if you didnt put a track nail in the center hole in the tie by the frog the wheels will lift off and lose contact with the rail. Gently push down by the frog if it drops down to your road bed or table that is your culprit, been there and I have about 75 of them on my layout, got to be troublesome after a while but I read somewhere on here they had the same problem, Jim.
If its an Atlas switch the problem is the switch, some are warped from the factory if you didnt put a track nail in the center hole in the tie by the frog the wheels will lift off and lose contact with the rail. Gently push down by the frog if it drops down to your road bed or table that is your culprit, been there and I have about 75 of them on my layout, got to be troublesome after a while but I read somewhere on here they had the same problem, Jim.
Thanks but it's a Walthers insulfrog, not an Atlas electrofrog. I think it needs some gentle filing because it binds only at the frog on the "straight" part of the curve, not the turnout section.
It seems as if the frog plastic base is lifting one or more of the wheel off the track and then it loses power. So I will have to somehow file the base of the frog plastic.
superbe The first thing I'd try would be to slide a straight edge across the rails and see if the straight edge hits the frog. Bob
The first thing I'd try would be to slide a straight edge across the rails and see if the straight edge hits the frog.
Bob
Already did that Bob and it's a good idea. Thats was the FIRST thing I tried. LOL!
Good one though!
Thanks Eric, but this is a DCC friendly insulfrog. I can power all sides, not a problem, but since the points are not powered does this make a difference?
Don't Ever Give Up
Paul_in_GA Hi Rich! It's a Bachman 2-8-0. I did add some weight and it works okay. Like I said, if I press down on the tender RIGHT at that spot the light will come on and it will start moving. So I think the plastic inside the frog is a tiny bit too high. Sound right? BTW: Layout coming along fine but slowly. I have a tunnel built, have to finish it and then make a mountain. This hobby, man everything happens so slowly.
Hi Rich!
It's a Bachman 2-8-0. I did add some weight and it works okay. Like I said, if I press down on the tender RIGHT at that spot the light will come on and it will start moving. So I think the plastic inside the frog is a tiny bit too high. Sound right?
BTW: Layout coming along fine but slowly. I have a tunnel built, have to finish it and then make a mountain. This hobby, man everything happens so slowly.
Paul,
Good to hear that you are making progress on the layout.
We will want to see photos of that tunnel and mountain when you are ready.
It definitely sounds like the frog is lifting the power pickup wheels off the rails.
richhotrain If it is binding through the frog, I don't see where a light filing of the sides and the bed of the frog would hurt anything. A light filing. And, I would keep some additional weight in the tender. Rich
If it is binding through the frog, I don't see where a light filing of the sides and the bed of the frog would hurt anything. A light filing.
And, I would keep some additional weight in the tender.
Thanks Rich. I can probably get a needle file in there. I'll give it a shot after I do about fifty million things for the wife.
Well, it's intermittent. I tried placing a bottle of paint on the tender and it worked but then it hesitated. Ditto with a small flashlight. I get the feeling by moving it by hand that it's binding through the frog. This is the straight part of the track too. Something like this could drive me nuts. Especially when I checked everything with a gauge.
What type of steam loco?
The problem may be the radius of the curved turnout which is 20" on the inside track and 24" on the outside track.
Why don't you add some weight to the tender and see what happens?
Thanks for your fast answers. It's a Bachman 2-8-0. I am 100% certain it's not the loco. I bought it a few months ago. It runs fine and only gets hung up right at that particular frog, nowhere else.
This is why I asked, I figured that it might need to be gently filed but that's an awfully narrow area to file and I have small files too. It's code 83 track by the way.
Is the loco in question and older one with deep flanges? Many older Rivarossi-built and other HO locos will not operate well on track smaller than code 100. If that's the problem, you may wish to evaluate your options.
If flange depth is not the issue, perhaps the frog area wasn't molded properly? I'm not sure how much would need to be removed, but a small file is one way.
Before modifying the track, though, make sure it's not the loco that's is the problem. Because you risk ending up creating new issues in trying to modify the track to accommodate a single loco with a problem.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
If it really is a problem with high plastic fill in the frog, a thin needle file or a Dremel cut-off disk might do the trick. It is just as likely, though, that when you press on the tender you are improving contact at points higher than the tires of the tender. Or, maybe pressing on the tender, if it is light (Bachmann's are bad for that), causes the points to sit better if the points do not get good contact, or maybe the closure rail jumpers under the turnout make better contact.
Remember that the plastic liner in the frog acts as a ramp for the flanges so that they wheels don't drop and bounce, maybe causing a deraiment. So, if you figure you have nothing to lose by gouging out some plastic in the frog, you may end up trading it for another form of grief. And, even if it doesn't change a thing, and the problems are elsewhere, you will still have those other places to seek.