Have you ever offered someone less money than they are asking at a train show and upset them in the process? I went to a train show in Shakopee MN today to see what I couldn't live without. While browsing, I saw an Athearn RTR Milwaukee Road RS-3. I've seen them on ebay and have considered purchasing one since the Milwaukee Road ran through my town during the same time period as I model. They usually sell for between $70 and $85. This one was priced at $70. I thought hey, why not ask them if they'll take less. You never know, maybe they'll say yes! I took the item to the table where they were ringing people up and asked " would you take $60 cash?" He gave me a dirty look and said, " why would I want to do that? I have to pay sales tax on that too." I said, " I didn't think of the sales tax, how about $60 plus tax?" Another dirty look, a sigh, then " they aren't even making that anymore." Then he pointed to the regular price to let me know that I was already getting a deal. I said "ya, I know, your price is what they sell for on ebay." Well, that sealed the deal! Well, not really, he grabbed the box and set it on the table and looked the other way! Now, I know the price was already fair, but to get angry that someone is offering ten dollars less seems silly to me. Since I'm in retail, when I hear they aren't even making that anymore, that tells me he's had it a while. It's not like I offered half or something. I know they wouldn't pay that much in credit card fees, but it would be close to $3.
Was I wrong in offering a lower amount?
Did he finally sell it to you?
No, you weren't wrong to ask. Up to him to say yes, no, or counter-offer. If he got upset, that is sort of his issue. Might of had something to do with whether or not he was having a good day otherwise.
My take on it is that if I'm not going to be upset if I give someone an offer that he might consider lowball, then I shouldn't be upset if I get a negative reaction. All part of the game.
The way I see it - never hurts to ask, the worst they could do is say no. OK, in this case, emotions got involved and in at least one case, feelings seem to be hurt. But I feel that just reflects lack of professionalism on the seller's part. Had it been me, I would likely have simply been a bit more up front and simply said something along the lines of "Sorry, can't do it, that's the lowest I can go." No need for rudeness. I do not feel asking for a lower price - or making a lower offer - is offensive. I *do* feel that EXPECTING a lower price, for whatever reason, is a different matter, such as "Hey, I bought x and y and z from you four years ago, you should give me a better deal on this".
Brad
EMD - Every Model Different
ALCO - Always Leaking Coolant and Oil
CSX - Coal Spilling eXperts
I don't think it can ever hurt to ask, but it often depends on how you ask. I know many dealers who don't really appreciate it when a person says something like "I'll take that off your hands for xxx" and then gives them a lowball price. That isn't asking and comes off like they're doing you a favor. If you ask nicely and someone takes offense, then that's their problem.
I don't know if using the eBay line is always a good ploy either, because they can just as easily tell you to "Go buy it there, then."
A lot also depends on the type of show and what you're buying. If it's a large show where a dealer has a lot invested in tables, travel and hotels, they may not be as inclined to negotiate. Especially if it's an in-demand item. On the other hand, if it's a smaller show where they don't have high costs to cover or if they are selling older items, they may have more room to discount.
Jim
Hello Secondhand,
I had a similar experience to yours when at a train show I saw a Walthers structure kit that I had been looking for. The seller had it priced MSRP at $24 and I offered $15 and willing to go as high as $18. When I pointed out that her price was msrp, she became irritated and made it clear that she wasn't going to budge on the price so I simply said "Ok," and I walked away.
I don't think you were wrong for offering a lower amount, however, it sounds like the seller you were dealing with became pretty irritated when you quoted ebay and you didn't sympathize with him after he stated that he had to "pay tax" on the item.
Expect that reactions like his come with the territory, so you have to be emotionally prepared to deal with it. Some sellers are quite flexible and willing to negotiate, while others have the charm of Fred Flintstone on a diet.
To be fair to the sellers, consider what happens at these train shows. Typically a number of modelers show up expecting "super sweet deals". So, following hours of haggling with buyers, it stands to reason that some of the sellers become a bit irritable after a while. I've seen it happen at train shows in my neck of the woods.
When I see a model I want and decide to negotiate, I greet the seller in a friendly manner to gauge his/her attitude. I don't try and pounce a deal right away.
Re your comment: "They aren't even making that anymore".
Loosely, that's a Catch-22 statement in our hobby. Remember that (thanks to outsourcing and Limited Runs) a number of "run of the mill" models that were produced just a few years ago that are no longer made are still sought after. The Athearn RTR FRISCO SD45 with the L-shape windshield comes to mind as does the Atlas U30C in the Rock Island scheme. Currently they rarely show up on ebay and when they do, you'll see quite a number of bids on those.
So, in some cases, sellers are willing to hang on to some of those out-of-production units and only drop the prices to unload them when a manufacturer announces that a new batch of that particular model will be produced. Watch how fast ebay fills up with the older run version then!
I remember years back when Athearn stopped producing the old Blue Box FP45 in the red & silver War Bonnet scheme. Some were selling at $75-$80 on ebay. When the Genesis version was announced, virtually piles of BB FP45s showed up on ebay for days on end, lol! I remember seeing some going for $14.
"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"
I didn't bring up ebay until the end of the conversation. The show was the Great Train Expo with mainly Minnesota dealers. This guy had a hobby shop here in Minnesota I guess so I suppose that WAS a good price to him. I was friendly about it and said, "I don't suppose you'd take $60 cash, would you?" It was the beginning of a two day show so my timing probably stunk!
AntonioFP45 Hello Secondhand, I had a similar experience to yours when at a train show I saw a Walthers structure kit that I had been looking for. The seller had it priced MSRP at $24 and I offered $15 and willing to go as high as $18. When I pointed out that her price was msrp, she became irritated and made it clear that she wasn't going to budge on the price so I simply said "Ok," and I walked away. I don't think you were wrong for offering a lower amount, however, it sounds like the seller you were dealing with became pretty irritated when you quoted ebay and you didn't sympathize with him after he stated that he had to "pay tax" on the item. Expect that reactions like his come with the territory, so you have to be emotionally prepared to deal with it. Some sellers are quite flexible and willing to negotiate, while others have the charm of Fred Flintstone on a diet. To be fair to the sellers, consider what happens at these train shows. Typically a number of modelers show up expecting "super sweet deals". So, following hours of haggling with buyers, it stands to reason that some of the sellers become a bit irritable after a while. I've seen it happen at train shows in my neck of the woods. When I see a model I want and decide to negotiate, I greet the seller in a friendly manner to gauge his/her attitude. I don't try and pounce a deal right away. Re your comment: "They aren't even making that anymore". Loosely, that's a Catch-22 statement in our hobby. Remember that (thanks to outsourcing and Limited Runs) a number of "run of the mill" models that were produced just a few years ago that are no longer made are still sought after. The Athearn RTR FRISCO SD45 with the L-shape windshield comes to mind as does the Atlas U30C in the Rock Island scheme. Currently they rarely show up on ebay and when they do, you'll see quite a number of bids on those. So, in some cases, sellers are willing to hang on to some of those out-of-production units and only drop the prices to unload them when a manufacturer announces that a new batch of that particular model will be produced. Watch how fast ebay fills up with the older run version then! I remember years back when Athearn stopped producing the old Blue Box FP45 in the red & silver War Bonnet scheme. Some were selling at $75-$80 on ebay. When the Genesis version was announced, virtually piles of BB FP45s showed up on ebay for days on end, lol! I remember seeing some going for $14.
AntonioFP45 I don't think you were wrong for offering a lower amount, however, it sounds like the seller you were dealing with became pretty irritated when you quoted ebay and you didn't sympathize with him after he stated that he had to "pay tax" on the item.
You're one up on me. I was there, sorry I didn't see you, and I didn't even see anything to bid on. I went to Beckers to get what I needed and went home. I have had good luck with bidding at flea markets by NEVER at a show.
I've never haggled but i don't think you did the wrong thing. it seems pretty simple to me they got three options 1. you could buy for less than what they want. 2. they may never sell it because you walk away and nobody else bothers looking at it. 3. in the event that somebody doe buy it, the seller may have to go through the same situation.
there may be more but I'm not really gonna play the what if game.
SP&S modeler, 1960's give or take a decade or two for some equipment.
http://www.youtube.com/user/SGTDUPREY?feature=guide
Gary DuPrey
N scale model railroader
You offered what it was worth to you. He stated what it was worth to him. If you can't come to terms there is no sale. He has no right to be upset no matter what you offered. You have no right to be upset that he refused your offer. Move on.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
Train shows in my area,when i look at something long enough the seller most of the time will say he will do better on the price.
Russell
I've generally found that large dealers aren't usually willing to negotiate on prices but smaller sellers such as individuals clearing out their extra stuff or small dealers are more willing to accept less than the marked price. I've even had people offer items at a lower price late in the day or if something's an oddball item that no one else has shown interest in. Your mileage may vary.
Bill
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig"
Guys,Haggling is a art..
Here's my method..
Let's say the seller has a Atlas yellow box GP7 for $65.00 since I know my price I start by looking at the Geep and then ask,What's the least you will take for this engine?
Let's say he replies $55.00.
I will counter would you take $50.00 cash?
I find 90% of the time its the delivery.
What I hate is the following.Same geep.
What's the least you will take for this engine?
Seller:: Make me a offer.
You see he has the advantage and will haggle the price up so,I lowball 'I'm by offering (say) $40.00.
He will offer a counter-probably $55.00,I counter $50.00 and most of the time its a done deal.
Remember this..Be fair,polite and be nonchalant.The worst thing you can do is look like you're chomping at the bits to take that model home.
One dealer wouldn't back off his counter offer so I said,"Let me think about it" and started to walk off..I bought the engine at my price offer.I made it about 5 steps before he called me back and we closed the deal.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
I'd say that your offer of $60 was better than the other 50 people who may have looked but just moved on. I always offer less than their sticker.
I suppose when you mention what you can get it on ebay for, or point out that the seller is not budging off of msrp, the seller might take it as criticism of his price, rather than just haggling, hence the cold shoulder.
- Douglas
One thing about quoting an eBay price is there is always the shipping costs to be added. So the eBay $60.00 price probably would have been higher.
I've never haggled myself, I don't think there is anything wrong with it, its just not something I'm wired to do. A model railroad friend of mine seemed to live to get a deal on everything and anything. That's all he talked about in the hobby, not about modeling, prototype, nothing. All about the great deals he got. To each his own I guess.
Bob Boudreau
CANADA
Visit my model railroad photography website: http://sites.google.com/site/railphotog/
And...it's one thing to ask about a discount if you're buying something that's fairly high in value or if you want to purchase multiple items. It's another thing to try and beat the price down on a brand new $3.98 item where the vendor isn't making that much at full list price.
I take a slighly different approach ....
Say somebody has something I've been interested in and it's priced at $100. To me, it's not worth any more than $80. So, out of sight, I pocket my extra cash leaving only $80 cash in my wallet. I then approach the seller ready to deal and offer $75. Obviously, that doesn't fly and he maybe counters with $90. I then open my wallet to count my cash and he clearly sees all I have is $80 (and maybe a couple bucks in change). At this point, he thinks / knows I'm tapped out at $80, so it's either going to be $80 or no sale.
Not a guaranteed method, but has worked many times !
Mark.
¡ uʍop ǝpısdn sı ǝɹnʇɐuƃıs ʎɯ 'dlǝɥ
I'll haggle a little bit sometimes. Depends on the item. Small stuff under $10 I don't want to take the time - I just move on if I don't like the price. If it's a current item and he's already got a decent discount or offers one while I'm looking at it then I'll buy it at that price. Otherwise I'll make an offer if he's close to what I'll pay. Sometimes I'll offer for 2 items together.
What I don't do, is bring in extraneous stuff like what it's selling for on eBay, Micro-Mark, ten years ago, etc. To me that's irrelevant along with what he sold the last one for, his inability to make a living, what he can get for it in Jersey, etc.
But I don't see anything wrong with making a low offer, even it's a fire sale price. He can always say no and you can move on.
Enjoy
Paul
ctyclsscs And...it's one thing to ask about a discount if you're buying something that's fairly high in value or if you want to purchase multiple items. It's another thing to try and beat the price down on a brand new $3.98 item where the vendor isn't making that much at full list price. Jim
Jim,$3.98 isn't worth haggling over.I only haggle on the higher price items I also have experience in horse trading and know that the seller probably took that geep in trade,bought from another dealer or from a modeler selling his collection and I suspect his markup is 50-60% above what he paid.
Here's another thing..You start the show in the red(table rent,hotel or motel room,meals gas etc,) and if you having a bad day then you better start dealing just to break even or make a small profit.
Make no mistake on a good day with a nice selection of reasonably price models you can make over $1,200.00.
I don't think it hurt to ask. I went out Saturday 10:15 to noon, and like Art I didn't see much of anything I wanted, save for a truck tuner, which I intended to grab on my way out. Naturally, I walked right by and went home. Probably should have gone back (only 2 miles from home) but lazy usually wins out. Gary
I always remember what my father once said,
" A retail price is never written in stone."
It never hurts to make an offer to the seller. It is part of the buyer/seller process.
It appears in your case that a retailer is trying to extend his store prices off site to the train show floor.
When I go to a train show, I expect a price lower than that found within a brick and motar store for a given product.
Bob
LION bought his first set of subway cars at a train show. They were selling at Trainworld for $120 at the time, and he wanted $110. and I looked at them the way only a LION or a kid short of funds could look at them and then I wandered away.
I came back to look at them again, and then walked away again. I did not really have all that much money with me. But the man said they were mine for 90, and indeed they were!
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
Don't think you did anything wrong. As above, it never hurts to ask. I've picked up a random road name Athearn RS-3 (it was L&N) for $25, I just needed another pwoer chassis so didn;t care what road name the shell had, so keep looking, you may find the one you want for a reasonable price.
On the other hand, my very first Timonium show after my no so voluntary time off from the hobby, in the very first row (when I do that show, I start at the far end and work back towards the middle) was a guy with a NIB Proto 2000 GP7, Reading. Marked at $25, a steal as marked. I immediately picked it up and went to the seller. He looked at the price tag, and said "give me $15 and it's good." Well, I wasn;t going to argue, and so started rebuilding my collection.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
If you are upper middle aged you might remember the wonderful Myron Cohen, a story teller/comedian who used to appear on the Ed Sullivan show. I still remember this story.
The lady goes to the butcher and says "I'd like a pound of lamb chops." The butcher says, "Sure. They're $8 a pound." The woman yells "$8 a pound! Schwartz has them for $6 a pound." The butcher says "So? Buy from Schwartz." The lady says "Well Schwartz is all out." Butcher says "Lady, if I was all out they'd be $5 a pound."
Dave Nelson
All of you are missing one simple negotiation tactic: misdirection. Scan the seller's items, note what you really really want, and start haggling over something other than what you're interested in. Wear him/her down a bit, act ready to walk away, then casually pick up the item you' actually want and start on that one. Nine times out of ten, the seller will fold like fresh laundry. Heartless? Yes. Pisses sellers off? Yes. But it works.
Stu
Streamlined steam, oh, what a dream!!
Corey,
There are a couple of items to consider:
I did not go to the show today, as it is just a re-hash of the old GATS shows for the most part. I will be making the long trip to Trainfest next week - A lot more stuff!
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
I've been doing shows for about 6 years and it isn't all about the money in my opinion, its the hobby that we are keeping alive. At one show a little boy came to my table and was looking at a Amtrak loco that I had bought from a friend that sold out because of health issues. He said that another vender wanted 30.00 for the loco alone, I asked him how much he had and he said it was birthday money and it was 20.00. His dad was with him and I could see the same look I had when I was his age. I told him for 10.00 I could set him up with everything to run trains, The look was worth more than I made that day and He has been back to the shows to collect more trains. A modeler for life most likely and a friend for life and a warm hand shake from a smiling father is something you can't put a price on. Jim.
Hi,
No, you were certainly not wrong, but you might have worded your offer better and/or the seller could have used a better mood. Said another way, both of you might have practiced better "tact and diplomacy"
I attended a negotiation class and brought up my Dad's old saying......... "tact and diplomacy all comes down to telling someone to go to hades (spell), and have them look forward to the trip"
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
jrbernierI suspect that this was new stock(the MSRP is $100 for that engine). The dealer price is about $60, so selling it for less is a money losing situation unless the dealer has sold lots of them
Jim,The dealers I know that attends train shows is there to make extra money for their shop and to dump old stock..Let's say he has a Athearn CF7 that's been collecting dust since the engine was release he can and will drop the price even if he breaks even or makes 5-10% profit after all that engine is worthless collecting dust in his shop..Of course he is happier if a modeler waltzes up to his table and flops down the full MSRP.
Now recall he is already in the red from the table rent and will need to cover that before covering his other expenses and if he sets on his prices his competitors will beat him out and he will lose money..
Selling at train shows is highly competitive and one better be willing to negotiate prices with prospective buyers or risk losing the sale to another dealer and here's their only trump card..They know 90% of the show's attendees is in such a hurry they won't bother to haggle the price even though they are willing to take less if they are asked..
Make no mistake the dealers know each other by name,they may have had breakfast together that morning and may have even bought items from each other but,once the show opens its all business.