Going with the "I could get it cheaper on EBay" ploy is probably the reason it went bad. Keep it classy, dude.
alco_fan Going with the "I could get it cheaper on EBay" ploy is probably the reason it went bad. Keep it classy, dude.
Dear Corey
I've been to about three train shows, and didn't stay longer than forty-five minutes at any of those, so I don't have a feel for buying and selling at such a place.
But I am forty-three years old and have that much experience in this world. He's set up to be a seller to the general public. He should expect a wide variety of responses to what he's selling. You're not obligated to offer him anything at all for what he's selling. You might offer to take a piece home to save him the embarrassment of doing it.
In my opinion, he has all the "right" in the world to get upset. He's a person living in 2012, so who knows how he might respond. He's certainly entitled to his emotions. Whether what you offer him is pleasant, and whether his reaction is pleasant, are not things that must be one way or the other.
That guy might not want to take ten times list price for the piece, or he might be willing to pay for your ticket to the show and parking if you'll save him the trouble of having to keep it. You won't know until you ask. Maybe you asked him to sell it for an amount less than what it's really worth. Gee, would you be the first person to do that in a market-type situation? That guy might threaten to harm you, or he might be just as slick as you are and stick to his price with class.
As a consumer dealing with a retail merchant, there's no way to find fault with your offer. But a retail merchant who needs to be able to get along well with his buying public should have been able to handle your offer without huffing and puffing.
I wouldn't want that fellow representing me.
--Jaddie
Mark R. I take a slighly different approach .... Say somebody has something I've been interested in and it's priced at $100. To me, it's not worth any more than $80. So, out of sight, I pocket my extra cash leaving only $80 cash in my wallet. I then approach the seller ready to deal and offer $75. Obviously, that doesn't fly and he maybe counters with $90. I then open my wallet to count my cash and he clearly sees all I have is $80 (and maybe a couple bucks in change). At this point, he thinks / knows I'm tapped out at $80, so it's either going to be $80 or no sale. Not a guaranteed method, but has worked many times ! Mark.
I take a slighly different approach ....
Say somebody has something I've been interested in and it's priced at $100. To me, it's not worth any more than $80. So, out of sight, I pocket my extra cash leaving only $80 cash in my wallet. I then approach the seller ready to deal and offer $75. Obviously, that doesn't fly and he maybe counters with $90. I then open my wallet to count my cash and he clearly sees all I have is $80 (and maybe a couple bucks in change). At this point, he thinks / knows I'm tapped out at $80, so it's either going to be $80 or no sale.
Not a guaranteed method, but has worked many times !
Mark.
I've done that exact thing. Not really negotiating, I just ran out of money, showed the seller that was all that I had, and he was willing to sell it for what I had on me. I've been 3 for 3 with this method.
I guess haggling goes both ways. If the seller thinks you have more and will buy now or come back later. he may hold out. Not so if he knows you don't have any more.
Got better deals than I expected to get.
I've also considered just putting a small amount in my wallet, and leaving more money in my pocket, then showing my wallet and claiming that was all I had. But that crosses the line between negotiating and out right lying, so I'm happy to say that I haven't done that.
- Douglas
Doughless Mark R. I take a slighly different approach .... Say somebody has something I've been interested in and it's priced at $100. To me, it's not worth any more than $80. So, out of sight, I pocket my extra cash leaving only $80 cash in my wallet. I then approach the seller ready to deal and offer $75. Obviously, that doesn't fly and he maybe counters with $90. I then open my wallet to count my cash and he clearly sees all I have is $80 (and maybe a couple bucks in change). At this point, he thinks / knows I'm tapped out at $80, so it's either going to be $80 or no sale. Not a guaranteed method, but has worked many times ! Mark. I've done that exact thing. Not really negotiating, I just ran out of money, showed the seller that was all that I had, and he was willing to sell it for what I had on me. I've been 3 for 3 with this method. I guess haggling goes both ways. If the seller thinks you have more and will buy now or come back later. he may hold out. Not so if he knows you don't have any more. Got better deals than I expected to get. I've also considered just putting a small amount in my wallet, and leaving more money in my pocket, then showing my wallet and claiming that was all I had. But that crosses the line between negotiating and out right lying, so I'm happy to say that I haven't done that.
Ahhh - the moral high ground .... one I'm sure all sellers take as well !
¡ uʍop ǝpısdn sı ǝɹnʇɐuƃıs ʎɯ 'dlǝɥ
One thing the seller has to keep in mind: a $60 sale is better than no sale at all. If the item is selling like hotcakes at the posted price, he should probably mark it up. If it's not moving at that price, he shouldn't hesitate to haggle. Otherwise he'll just end up marking it down anyway to get rid of it.
Connecticut Valley Railroad A Branch of the New York, New Haven, and Hartford
"If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right." -- Henry Ford
Hhhmmm, Secondhandmodeler,
You say you work retail?
Hmmm,
They say you can go into any store and haggle a price with them. But if I go to Wally World and want to haggle over an item, what do you think my chances of getting the manager to lower the price ACTUALLY ARE?
Now if Wally World is clearance iteming the item, or the season is over for that item,or it is broken or something, MAYBE They will haggle at Wally World!
Otherwise NO.
He had a price, and probably needs to get that..he may have paid $55 for it himself...so any offer other than his $65 {?] would be an insult to him.
If the item is "NIB" then it HAD a retail cost and a retail PRICE once...his Cost into it still remains the same..in fact if they aren't making them anymore, he COULD charge more for it. He knows that and makes you pay what he wants for it cause "they ain't makin no more"
If you want an item, be prepared to pay the asking price and be prepared for a reaction like this if they don't haggle.
Now if it is a well used item, maybe he sould have haggled.
I don't expect to haggle even when "haggling is expected". I don't expect a price to be artificially higher just to get "what they want out of it" by haggling. Nor do I expect to get a price break by haggling. I am also NOT a good "haggler".
I simply look at it this way, if I am not willing the pay the price on it, then I move along. If they want to sell it "no haggle" they will say "show sale...15% off"..then I feel like I got a bargain, and perhaps they got their needed price out of the item.
Now Ebay,,,the price goes up and up and if you are lucky not up past what you are willling to pay for it!
I never could understand why people {on TV autions} would stop biding at say $100, but then after silence start to bid again and bid it up to say $500!!! if they weren't willling to pay the $125 next bid, why oh why would they later bid $500 on it???? DOesn't make sense to me.
SO naturally I don;t do auctions well either!
Just my
-G .
Just my thoughts, ideas, opinions and experiences. Others may vary.
HO and N Scale.
After long and careful thought, they have convinced me. I have come to the conclusion that they are right. The aliens did it.
Stores will haggle. I've done it successfully buying clothes at Jordan Marsh and Macy's.
Modeling the Baltimore waterfront in HO scale
galaxy They say you can go into any store and haggle a price with them. But if I go to Wally World and want to haggle over an item, what do you think my chances of getting the manager to lower the price ACTUALLY ARE?
Wally World will honor other stores weekly ad prices..I've gotten Bob Evans rolled sausage and sausage patties @ 2/$6.00 so,yes,they will drop their prices by matching another store's sale price.All you need to do is show them the ad and they will match it.
That may not be haggling in its truest form but,you are getting them to lower their regular price.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Galaxy,
I manage a privately owned men's clothing store. In ANY privately owned men's clothing store you can haggle. Regular prices and sale prices barely mean a thing. If I want to sell something that day just to make a sale, I can change the price to anything I want within reason. I could certainly come off my price ten dollars in most cases. If I didn't want to, I wouldn't give the guy an attitude just for asking! I'm not much of a haggler myself, but I've found that any time I shop at a small business, if I ask if there's any chance of getting a better price, I can usually get at least ten percent off the asking price. Whether it's jewelry, home theater equipment, a lawn mower, appliances, or a car, if it's a privately owned store and not Walmart, they usually negotiate. I get the fact that he was there to make money. I was there to get a deal. The fact that we couldn't come to an agreement doesn't bother me that much since I didn't really need the locomotive. I was only bothered by his attitude and couldn't believe the reaction for simply asking if he's take a couple bucks less.
BRAKIE galaxy They say you can go into any store and haggle a price with them. But if I go to Wally World and want to haggle over an item, what do you think my chances of getting the manager to lower the price ACTUALLY ARE? Wally World will honor other stores weekly ad prices..I've gotten Bob Evans rolled sausage and sausage patties @ 2/$6.00 so,yes,they will drop their prices by matching another store's sale price.All you need to do is show them the ad and they will match it. That may not be haggling in its truest form but,you are getting them to lower their regular price.
I am NOT talking about price matching.
I am talking " say, Mr. Manager, I see these gas BBQ grills are listed at $125.00. I really want one, What Say I give you $85.00 for it?" AIN'T HAPPENING.
MIGHT happen at year-end clearance, or if a it is the last one they will ever get, or if it is damaged. BUT, Otherwise, MR. Wally World manager ain't budging on the retail price. He'll say "you'll have to wait til they go on sale".
I've HEARD that happen, AND I used to work Retail. My manager of our NE Chain store was always innudated by some customer or even employee who wanted a "special deal". and Company policy was NOT for that. The only time 10%-20% was taken off was last display model, clearace or damaged. And that 10-20% was OFF REGUALR RETAIL price, NOT any other sales price.
Other Retailers I worked for had a NO DISCOUNT policy, except as noted...last display model or damaged item .
Clearance is usually the BEST symbol of the lowest price they will take for any item that is last in stock ro getting rid of. And not a penny less.
Again, I would not presume any dealer..regardless of whom, will take anything lower than what is to them the lowest price they will go. a symbol to me they are taking less, is A SALE.
This is USA usually the price is the price. if you want a discount, you buy it ON SALE.
Now if this was the market place in Calcutta, where one is expected to haggle...maybe...but this ain't no Calcutta....
---------------------------
Next time try "Sears has these grills for $99.95"..Can you match that price?
Same principle as haggling to get the best price.
Train show dealers love those buyers that fork over their price even though they are willing to negotiate a lower price.
I was looking over the dealers tables at the Bucyrus train show about a half hour before the show doors open and I got talking to some of the dealers and all said one thing in common-all prices are negotiable.The only thing I bought was a used Atlas S4 that was on cosignment from a private seller for $45.00.I didn't haggle since I already knew the proceeds was going to help pay medical bills.
BRAKIEI didn't haggle since I already knew the proceeds was going to help pay medical bills.
Jim
Maybe the seller in this case has succeeded in getting higher prices when he is snarky. Everyone comes to a gunfight with a knife in their pocket as well, right? If you remembered your gun, you're in business. If all you brought was the knife.....
In my very limited experience, with attendance only at three close-by small shows in my 7 years in the hobby, and a stay as well of only 45 minutes, sellers fall into two categories...well, three, and I only bought from the third, but the two main categories are hobby/collector types who are attempting to divest themselves of some stuff to free up some cash, or there are the retailers who hope to move the stuff with the red stickers on them that he had to drag out of the bin and load into his car....some of it for the second time. They also bring one-off items, say a Walthers indexed turntable or a transformer that hasn't sold, something costly to him that hasn't moved.
In every case, hobbyist or retailer, they have at least thought about what they would need to part with the more costly items. If they quote you a price, they have taken the time to consider the matter. Quoting includes placing a marked sticker on it. Most experienced retailers know that they will be offered some very low prices, particularly when someone they know comes in and they both know the item had a quarter inch of dust on it before it went into the van. But sad is the retailer, and unsuccessful, who is not prepared to respond with equanimity to a proposed price on any items he offers for sale. He does have the right to refuse tersely an offer that borders on an insult....say an offer of $60 for a BLI steamer, NIB, that he thought to bring along at the last minute. His terse reply would be part of the communications that he is not willing to feign enjoyment of the dance being proposed.
The responsible and reasonable prospective buyer should be aware that, and be prepared to accept responsibility for, the rejection, even if it is accompanied by unpleasant verbiage, body language, and so on.
A "no" can be said many ways. Some'r just firmer than others.
Crandell
My best success negotiating lower prices at swap meets is in the last hour or two of a show, and when I'm buying more than one item at the same time.
It helps to keep up on current prices and see how identical items are priced by different sellers. I've found the same kit at swap meets with a price swing of 20% to 30%, on different tables.
galaxy BRAKIE galaxy They say you can go into any store and haggle a price with them. But if I go to Wally World and want to haggle over an item, what do you think my chances of getting the manager to lower the price ACTUALLY ARE? Wally World will honor other stores weekly ad prices..I've gotten Bob Evans rolled sausage and sausage patties @ 2/$6.00 so,yes,they will drop their prices by matching another store's sale price.All you need to do is show them the ad and they will match it. That may not be haggling in its truest form but,you are getting them to lower their regular price. I am NOT talking about price matching. I am talking " say, Mr. Manager, I see these gas BBQ grills are listed at $125.00. I really want one, What Say I give you $85.00 for it?" AIN'T HAPPENING. MIGHT happen at year-end clearance, or if a it is the last one they will ever get, or if it is damaged. BUT, Otherwise, MR. Wally World manager ain't budging on the retail price. He'll say "you'll have to wait til they go on sale". I've HEARD that happen, AND I used to work Retail. My manager of our NE Chain store was always innudated by some customer or even employee who wanted a "special deal". and Company policy was NOT for that. The only time 10%-20% was taken off was last display model, clearace or damaged. And that 10-20% was OFF REGUALR RETAIL price, NOT any other sales price. Other Retailers I worked for had a NO DISCOUNT policy, except as noted...last display model or damaged item . Clearance is usually the BEST symbol of the lowest price they will take for any item that is last in stock ro getting rid of. And not a penny less. Again, I would not presume any dealer..regardless of whom, will take anything lower than what is to them the lowest price they will go. a symbol to me they are taking less, is A SALE. This is USA usually the price is the price. if you want a discount, you buy it ON SALE. Now if this was the market place in Calcutta, where one is expected to haggle...maybe...but this ain't no Calcutta....
So picture this:
You're in line at Wally World, buying propane and bottled water in preparation for Sandy. The couple in front of you has a wooden mortar and pestle set, without a price marked. Household is called, and has no idea what the price is. To try to move the line along, the couple offers $5. You chime in and say that's a fair price. The manager's response: "WalMart doesn't work that way. It's the marked price or nothing."
It's happened. I was in your shoes. Even the managers have very limited authority to modify company pricing.
In 50 years of going to train shows, I've found that around 40% of the folks who hold down tables are , in fact, good businessmen who enjoy the art of the deal. The other 60% ....well, ask their former employer...if they had one.
Why did they have to pick TRAINS?
secondhandmodeler I didn't bring up ebay until the end of the conversation. The show was the Great Train Expo with mainly Minnesota dealers. This guy had a hobby shop here in Minnesota I guess so I suppose that WAS a good price to him. I was friendly about it and said, "I don't suppose you'd take $60 cash, would you?" It was the beginning of a two day show so my timing probably stunk!
I didn't bring up ebay until the end of the conversation. The show was the Great Train Expo with mainly Minnesota dealers. This guy had a hobby shop here in Minnesota I guess so I suppose that WAS a good price to him. I was friendly about it and said, "I don't suppose you'd take $60 cash, would you?" It was the beginning of a two day show so my timing probably stunk!
That's why I only go to shows on the last day. A lot of dealers don't like to pack up all the stuff they've hauled from their home base. Sure, the item you may be looking for may already be gone, but I've found there is more "haggling" room on the last day.
Marlon
See pictures of the Clinton-Golden Valley RR
Some of these dealers really make me wonder. Maybe they are using shows as a tax break.
They haul huge amounts of product to the show, unload and set up. Then the dealer will stubbornly refuse to lower prices and haul the stuff back home or to a storage facility.
And the process repeats over and over.
This isn't new product I am talking about, its NOS from back in the 80s and 90s. I've seen Kato and Atlas boxes with the coloring worn off from all the handling over the years.
People know they can get these NOS items on idiotbay for 1/2 of the train show hard liners. While shipping is a factor, gas and show admittance also has to be factored.
Another factor is returns. The train shows have zero protection unless you pay with a CC. Idiotbay has 3 levels of protection. You can open a claim with Ebay, Paypal or your credit card company.
No, didn't hurt to ask. I can understand why a retailer wouldn't budge, as that is their bread-and-butter.
I loathe any reference to ebay during a negotiation. You know in advance what you are willing to shell out for said merchandise, just like the seller knows in advance what he/she will accept.
I've learned that if I show particular interest in an object, the seller usually will strike a conversation with me, and mention he will go X amount lower on same. Cut out the bullpoop, and be genuine and sincere...that is the art of the deal.
Well I actually read all what you wrote and if that is how it happened, and I have no reason to doubt what you say, I see nothing wrong on your part. You were polite and not unreasonable. You did offer to add tax to the item when he brought it up. You did not use the E-bay price as leverage, but you more like said “I know your price is fair because… but would you take less?” Again, in my opinion, you did nothing wrong.
Not knowing how long the guy had been there that day and how many times he’d been approached for a discount, I’d say he reacted more out of disgust. Like “really? Another person trying to get it cheaper.” Well he should know that most people who are cruising the place looking at items, are there to get things at a deal. That’s why they came. I’ve never heard anyone say they were going to a trainshow hoping to pay full or slightly higher than somewhere else prices. If he doesn’t want people to ask for lower prices, then maybe he shouldn’t sell in a setting where haggling is expected. After all, it is sort of a garage sale environment. Stay in a store where haggling is less expected. But even then, he should be willing to expect from time to time lower offers, especially on used items. As for offering Walmart a lower price, well that’s kind of a yes and no thing. Yes they do budge on their prices. Just bring in an add from another retailer with a lower price for the same item, and Walmart will lower their price. Is that haggling in the truest form? Well, the same as saying to the guy at the table, “I can get this from so and so’s for …” Same thing depending on how you look at it. And yes my wife did get the manager over and offered him less on this fountain thing and he accepted, and yes it was last one in their store, no longer made. But then again, didn't the guy say that they don't make those locos anymore? Again, same thing. But other than that, no, you’re not gonna get most any chain retailer to budge on a non verified price. I wouldn’t try it with an E-bay price either. That is a one time, many circumstance price. Like any auction, two people with whatever reasoning, run something up and pay $80 plus shipping for an item selling for $60 all over the place, does not suddenly make like items $80. Nor does it work the other way. Besides, in some instances, that’s only what it was bid up to. Not necessarily what it sold for if you catch my drift.
Myself am like some others, I pay what’s on the ticket most times. I figure you ask, if I’m ok with it I’ll buy. I’m not saying that is the way it should be, I’m just saying that’s the way I am. You price high, I walk by. That’s not to say I don’t ever try to haggle, sometimes I will, but mostly not. Usually, someone just offers me a lower price and if I’m interested, I’ll take it. But when I do offer, I make an offer that is as high as I’ll go. I figure fair to him is what it’s worth to me in that case. If he refuses or counters higher I just politely say no. I don’t care if he’s paid $60, if it’s not worth $60 to me…., sorry.
Like I said, as you relayed the story, I think you did nothing wrong and it was the vendor who was snippy. Personally, I would have smiled sarcastically, set the loco down and walked away as soon as he came back with the remark “why would I want to do that”.
Todd
Central Illinoyz
In order to keep my position as Master and Supreme Ruler of the House, I don't argue with my wife.
I'm a small town boy. A product of two people from even smaller towns. I don’t talk on topic….. I just talk.
TMarshI think you did nothing wrong and it was the vendor who was snippy.
Todd,You bring up a good point that I will add too.
I've seen vendors that was gentle and kind while others seem to be like a she coon guarding her cubs.
Maybe they're having a bad day or mad because other vendors have lower prices? I dunno.
secondhandmodeler Have you ever offered someone less money than they are asking at a train show and upset them in the process? I went to a train show in Shakopee MN today to see what I couldn't live without. While browsing, I saw an Athearn RTR Milwaukee Road RS-3. I've seen them on ebay and have considered purchasing one since the Milwaukee Road ran through my town during the same time period as I model. They usually sell for between $70 and $85. This one was priced at $70. I thought hey, why not ask them if they'll take less. You never know, maybe they'll say yes! I took the item to the table where they were ringing people up and asked " would you take $60 cash?" He gave me a dirty look and said, " why would I want to do that? I have to pay sales tax on that too." I said, " I didn't think of the sales tax, how about $60 plus tax?" Another dirty look, a sigh, then " they aren't even making that anymore." Then he pointed to the regular price to let me know that I was already getting a deal. I said "ya, I know, your price is what they sell for on ebay." Well, that sealed the deal! Well, not really, he grabbed the box and set it on the table and looked the other way! Now, I know the price was already fair, but to get angry that someone is offering ten dollars less seems silly to me. Since I'm in retail, when I hear they aren't even making that anymore, that tells me he's had it a while. It's not like I offered half or something. I know they wouldn't pay that much in credit card fees, but it would be close to $3. Was I wrong in offering a lower amount?
Have you ever offered someone less money than they are asking at a train show and upset them in the process? I went to a train show in Shakopee MN today to see what I couldn't live without. While browsing, I saw an Athearn RTR Milwaukee Road RS-3. I've seen them on ebay and have considered purchasing one since the Milwaukee Road ran through my town during the same time period as I model. They usually sell for between $70 and $85. This one was priced at $70. I thought hey, why not ask them if they'll take less. You never know, maybe they'll say yes! I took the item to the table where they were ringing people up and asked " would you take $60 cash?" He gave me a dirty look and said, " why would I want to do that? I have to pay sales tax on that too." I said, " I didn't think of the sales tax, how about $60 plus tax?" Another dirty look, a sigh, then " they aren't even making that anymore." Then he pointed to the regular price to let me know that I was already getting a deal. I said "ya, I know, your price is what they sell for on ebay." Well, that sealed the deal! Well, not really, he grabbed the box and set it on the table and looked the other way! Now, I know the price was already fair, but to get angry that someone is offering ten dollars less seems silly to me. Since I'm in retail, when I hear they aren't even making that anymore, that tells me he's had it a while. It's not like I offered half or something. I know they wouldn't pay that much in credit card fees, but it would be close to $3.
Was I wrong in offering a lower amount?
Corey,
I have only read some of the replies from others, but I will say this. I don't think you were necessarily wrong in asking once, but based on your description of the sellers first response you should have just moved on right then.
Train shows have long since moved past the idea of being a big model train "yard sale", and by virture of the fact that people running real businesses go there to sell their products that does change my view about haggling over prices.
Do you go in the grocery store and haggle over the price of a gallon of milk?
You may think all retailers are in a hurry to move out older product quickly even at no profit, but not everyone needs to or wants to do business that way. Some feel that by providing a good selection they are providing a service that in turn rewards them with a reasonable profit on every item - old or new.
What do you do for a living? How about if your boss wanted to renegotiate your wages for each days work?
You might feel differently about haggling then.
That $10 less you thought was no big deal was actually most of the profit in that item at that $70 price.
What did those retail for new? Divide the retail in half, that is about what dealers pay for Athearn. If I recall when I bought mine, those RS-3's were about $100 retail new. He already had it discounted 30% and would only be making $20 after investing $50.
I suggest that all of you get over the idea that anyone selling model trains is getting rich at your expense - they are not.
Sheldon
I would have to agree with Sheldon. I'm not much of a haggler. If something is reasonably priced and I want or need it, I'll pay that price; knowing that the guy behind the counter needs to make a profit on the item, too.
If - on the other hand - the price is above what I think the item is worth, I might ask if the price is negotiable. If it is, I'd make a "reasonable" offer and/or counter offer - i.e. until a amicable agreement can be made. If it isn't then I'd move on and/or try again at a later time; if the item is still there.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL What did those retail for new? Divide the retail in half, that is about what dealers pay for Athearn. If I recall when I bought mine, those RS-3's were about $100 retail new. He already had it discounted 30% and would only be making $20 after investing $50.
Of course you are correct but,allow me to give you a behind the scene look.
Our club has a train show once a year and I've seen dealers buy from each other and even horse trade..I even heard them talking about how much they made..
One boldly stated he dumps his "dust collectors" at these shows at 5-10% profit.The buyer is happy he got a deal and I'm tickled I finally moved a locomotive or car that's been collecting dust for X many years and that engine or car has been to so many shows he lost count..
Make no mistake every dealer knows his limit he can sell for and he also knows all to well his competitors is chomping at the bit to "steal" his sale and lost sales is the difference between a profitable day and a bad day. He is also well aware the majority of the show's attendees knows how much a engine or car goes for on e-Bay or on line.
I will offer and counter offer reasonable prices.
BRAKIE ATLANTIC CENTRAL What did those retail for new? Divide the retail in half, that is about what dealers pay for Athearn. If I recall when I bought mine, those RS-3's were about $100 retail new. He already had it discounted 30% and would only be making $20 after investing $50. Of course you are correct but,allow me to give you a behind the scene look. Our club has a train show once a year and I've seen dealers buy from each other and even horse trade..I even heard them talking about how much they made.. One boldly stated he dumps his "dust collectors" at these shows at 5-10% profit.The buyer is happy he got a deal and I'm tickled I finally moved a locomotive or car that's been collecting dust for X many years and that engine or car has been to so many shows he lost count.. Make no mistake every dealer knows his limit he can sell for and he also knows all to well his competitors is chomping at the bit to "steal" his sale and lost sales is the difference between a profitable day and a bad day. He is also well aware the majority of the show's attendees knows how much a engine or car goes for on e-Bay or on line. I will offer and counter offer reasonable prices.
Selling anything at 5-10% above your cost is breaking even at best - not making a profit. Going home with something you may be able to sell another day is no worse than selling it at cost if your business is properly funded and properly managed.
What you may or may not know is that there is a percentage of train show dealers for whom their business is really just a hobby - they actually like hanging out at the train show all weekend at an effective labor rate of $5 or $10 per hour and don't care that they only made a 5% net return on a not so big investment in the first place.
REAL businesses need to make 30% or more and have a reasonable volume and turnover. Finding the right balance of inventory depth and pricing levels is the trick to ANY retail business.
In the old days, before all this discounting, small percentages of old product were considered a customer draw and money in the bank that would eventually sell at full profit. That business model worked well for both dealer and consumer. I remember when you walk into MB Klein and buy nearly any Athearn item made, they usually had big stacks of every item available.
Look at all the complaints/comments/questions on here about not being able to find the desired car or loco made just a few years ago?
I've sold model trains, electronics, tools, custom tractor parts, been in business doing construction and currently make a living designing houses/additions/renovations/restorations. If you can't make over 30% gross margin, you can't make a living - you are just running a "hobby", not a business.
Or, in the case of Wal Mart who only makes 5%, a public social service agency.
I would not get out of bed for 5%, let alone spend two days on my feet at a train show.
And if a potential customer tries to negotiate down my fees, I politely tell them I must not be the right designer for their job. My phone keeps ringing.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL What you may or may not know is that there is a percentage of train show dealers for whom their business is really just a hobby - they actually like hanging out at the train show all weekend at an effective labor rate of $5 or $10 per hour and don't care that they only made a 5% net return on a not so big investment in the first place.
Actually several of our dealers has shops and use train shows as a means to dump old stock..Several are professional train show dealers that has a large investment while others are "weekend warriors" that sells models collected from several means to include estates,closed shop inventories won at auction.
A engine or car that has sit in your shop for X many years and been to taken to several train shows a 5-10% profit looks good and far better then hoping that it will sell in your shop before the next show.
I've had dealers to offer me P2K GP7/9s and E8s for $30.00 each or I could make a lot offer.
I passed.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Or, in the case of Wal Mart who only makes 5%, a public social service agency. I would not get out of bed for 5%, let alone spend two days on my feet at a train show.
Well, while you’re at home in bed holding out for the 30%, I’ll go out and take Wal-marts 5%.
No seriously I see and understand your point. The smaller your business, the higher the profit margin needs to be to make a true profit. Just because you sell a loco for $60 that you paid $55 for does not mean you made $5 until after all profits cover expenses. But, the fact with a trainshow, regardless of how you as a vendor may feel, is that the customers, the ones who buy your wares, feel that it’s a place to make deals. Just listen to everyone, most everyone, who talks about it. Also, there are boxes and boxes of loose cars, and locos in all sorts of conditions that the vendor obviously picked up at who knows where, garage sales? Other trainshows? Somewhere but not from Athearn or Walthers new, and I’m sure he had no problem with haggling the price on most his stuff.
Now, I don’t believe the OP was referring to the price of the item as much as the attitude of the vendor. I still stand by the vendor was in the "wrong" so to speak. Maybe he was having a bad day, we all do. Maybe the guy’s swell every other day. Not saying he’s not a nice guy. But for this transaction what I say is he was….wrong for lack of a better word. Had he simply said in a civil, or non-irritated way that he wasn’t willing to go any lower, and kinda chuckled that E-bayers don’t have to make as much off an item to profit or better yet say E-bayers don’t have to pay this booth fee and kinda laugh at it, he probably would have sold that loco right ther instead of possibly packing it up and taking it home back home contributing to who knows, possibly a loss for the day. Faced with that, I’ll again take 5%.
Holding out for a “worth my while” profit margin is all fine and dandy prior to getting in to something, but once you’re there, you’re in it. That kinda attitude is actually poor business sense and the fuel for multiple failed business ventures. The objective should be to at least get out with some profit, even if it’s only 2%. Better than a loss. Once you're out of that one, then assess whether you want to get involved in the next...., or stay in bed.
Todd,
While it is obviously in the best interest of any business man to be polite to his potential customers, the OP's original story, as told, suggests the vendors first response should have been a clear enough meassage that the prices was not negotable.
As for taking 5% while I wait for 30%, I'll just repeat this, I have been self employed most of my life, what do you do for a living?
I have walked away from lots of people who wanted me to sell my goods or services for less, and never regretted it once. I ran a train department in a hobby shop, I know little something about this business.
As I stated before, each business has its own balance of profit margin, volume and turnover needed for success. Most businesses fail from being under capitalized, not from lack of sales.
And while many train show dealers are as you discribe, many are simply "mobile hobby shops" buying their merchandise through the normal wholesale channels.
And, why would you assume that vender lost money that day? He might have already knocked them dead? Possibly at a nice 25% to 35% margin. Why give away that loco?
BRAKIE ATLANTIC CENTRAL What you may or may not know is that there is a percentage of train show dealers for whom their business is really just a hobby - they actually like hanging out at the train show all weekend at an effective labor rate of $5 or $10 per hour and don't care that they only made a 5% net return on a not so big investment in the first place. Actually several of our dealers has shops and use train shows as a means to dump old stock..Several are professional train show dealers that has a large investment while others are "weekend warriors" that sells models collected from several means to include estates,closed shop inventories won at auction. A engine or car that has sit in your shop for X many years and been to taken to several train shows a 5-10% profit looks good and far better then hoping that it will sell in your shop before the next show. I've had dealers to offer me P2K GP7/9s and E8s for $30.00 each or I could make a lot offer. I passed.
Larry,
It is one thing when a dealer, at a train show, or otherwise, decides to mark down a price and sell something at blowout clearence prices. I have personally bought lots of Proto2000 locos at such prices.
It is quite another to think you can negotiate such a price on an item with a "normal" advertised price.