DCC or not

[rogerhensley]

I went to DCC a few years back. It was a tough choice, but I had a friend who game me several decoders that he was not using (he had gone over to sound). With these in hand, I decided to make the jump. It was easy... NOT. But it was well worth it in the end.

Yes, I still have my switches to shut down various tracks and I would not get rid of them. I have now added two automatic reversers to my reversing loops and that has changed the way that I operate. Some of my old engines have been retired and sold off and I have added two new ones set up for DCC.

So, make the choice. But if you decide to go with DCC, Athearn and Atlas locos are no problem. Decoders can be added and you will be off and running.

[NP2626]

While the decision to go DCC; or not, is totally an individual's choice, I don't see any reason to not go DCC. 

[galaxy]

Sleep Like a Kitten:

I think you could Consider the Bachmann EZ Command DCC system in a package that will give you at least one DCC loco, if not 2.

I have the EZC and love it..in fact I have two. I have a small layout {due to space} of 3.5 feet by 5.1 feet {yes its small for HO} and I have two interconnected ovals with a  4 spur yard inside the inner oval and a 2 spur engine storage/servicing facility inside the inner oval. ALL it takes for this small pike is literally TWO wires connected to it from the EZC to run 2 trains {one on each oval} and I can even play with a 3rd in the engine "yard" while the 2 go round and round! {Providing the amp draw allows-newer DCC locos run on fewer amps than most of the older locos}}. I also have an EZC for the under the table top tree layout for Christmas.

Now, I will grant you the BAchmann DCC oNBoard locos in these packages do not have sound, just DCC control for lights, speed and direction. BUT you can always add Sound locos later.

Bachmann USED to be "train set cheapo quality" but Bachmann has worked long and hard to improve their locos to be good runners and well detailed, especially their Spectrum line. But even the standard line are great runners.. I Have 14 Bachmann DCC OnBoard locos! They also,,I hear,,, have a GREAT service department compared to the makers of the more expensive locos! {I have never yet had to find out about service!}

At least ONE guy on here is pleased he KEPT his EZC as his digitrax burns out sometimes and he reverts back to the simple to use and program EZC form his more expensive model. He mentions it whenever hsi $$$$ system crashes.

Here is a package with TWO locos:

http://www.wholesaletrains.com/Detail.asp?Scale=HO&Item=160Set&ID=200411080

Here are some sets with the controller AND one diesel loco {there are differing ones for livery names}:

http://www.wholesaletrains.com/Detail.asp?Scale=HO&Item=RGBVCW&offset=25&ID=200429899

http://www.wholesaletrains.com/Detail.asp?Scale=HO&Item=RGBVCW&ID=200401358

http://www.wholesaletrains.com/Detail.asp?Scale=HO&Item=RGBVCW&offset=25&ID=200855163

Here is one with steam if you like there are other sets wiht differing livery names}:

http://www.wholesaletrains.com/Detail.asp?Scale=HO&Item=RGBVCW&offset=25&ID=200429902

So, for a mere $79.99 and up to $197.99 you can get a controller and one or two DCC OnBoard {lights, speed, direction} !!!

The EZC is easy to program, and ALLOWS you to Run ONE DC locomotive too!!!! So you can run your new DCC loco and a DC older loco that you have!!!

Here are some You Tube VIdeos of How EASy it is to do with the EZC:

Bachmann E-Z Command Part 1 - YouTube

Bachmann E-Z Command part 2 - YouTube

E-Z Command Part 3 - YouTube

E-Z Commmand Part 4 - YouTube

BACHMANN E-Z COMMAND - CONTROLLING SOUNDS - YouTube

So, GOod luck with your hunting! and consider this starter system with the loco in it!

 

[RMax1]

I bought a Bachmann EZ Command DCC system with a GP40 for around $80 a few years back.  The reason I did this was to see if I liked DCC and not to put out a lot of cash.  I had a large amount of DC locos and converting would take time and money.  My bottom layout is a loop with spurs and I have it clipped to just unplug the DC and connect DCC.  Everything works fine.  My upper layout is a switching layout and I do the same exact thing.  It works good too.  Now that I have discovered that I like DCC I am going to buy a more featured system.  My advice would be to buy an inexpensive setup at first and see if you like it.  The Bachmann may not be what you want but it worked for me.  Digitrax and others have expandable starters too.  As for old loco's my first conversion was an old Atlas SD35 from the 70's.  Took a little bit to do but works fine and it gets easier the more of them you do.

RMax

[doctorwayne]

I was just about to ask a Moderator to move this thread to the DCC sub-forum when I read David's post.

I, too, run DC, and my layout is a room-size one.  It's designed to be run solo, so there's only one train moving at a time, but that train may be double-headed and using a pusher, too.  My operations are sequential, so different trains move in-turn over an operating "day", which may take many real days or weeks to complete. There's no sound (had enough to last a lifetime after almost 40 years in a steel mill) and nothing moving that doesn't have a dedicated and observant operator.
I don't have blocks, as there's still only a single operator, but I do have passing sidings and other areas where locomotives can be held until needed.  All of the switches to control this, plus rotary switches for two turntables and all of the associated wiring (not really much at all, as I didn't need to bother with a bus wire) probably cost less than $25.00.  A ControlMaster 20 added another $100.00 or so, as did a better-quality PWM throttle, so the start-up cost was manageable for me.  (The throttle and switches were add-ons acquired later.)

The features of DCC, for what the OP appears to want, are perfect, and I'd suggest that he should take the plunge.  There's likely not a loco that can't be converted, but it's up to him to decide which ones are worth the effort and expense.  I suspect, after the first DCC loco or two, that many of those older ones will become redundant, resulting in not only a reduced change-over budget, but also the opportunity for some extra cash to put towards the new operating system.

Now, back to your regularly-scheduled love-in.

Wayne

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

A few thoughts:

If you like onboard sound, DCC is the only practical choice at this time.

If you want signals, DCC does not get you any closer to to that than DC - with both signals are a complex additional infrastructure.

Most if not all older locos can be converted to DCC, most with relative ease.

All arguments in favor of DCC are stronger for smaller layouts as opposed to larger ones, and like wise are stronger for layouts without signaling as opposed to layout with signaling - Why you ask?

As layout size increases, DCC infrastructure requirements increase and can rival many DC control schemes.

Blocks for signaling can be integrated directly into various advanced DC control systems, with DCC they simply add to the infrastructure needed.

Small layouts with several locos moving in close proximity to each other benefit greatly from DCC, large layouts can "afford" fewer DC control sections (blocks) and can function well with any number of advanced DC power schemes, computer block control, progressive cab control, MZL, etc.

Only the operational goals of the specific layout concept, including the desire or lack of desire for onboard sound, can determine which choice is most economical or which will be most rewarding to the owner/operators.

All assumptions that multiple train DC control systems require "block toggles" or fixed control panels to mount them on are patently false and outdated by several decades.

Walk around control can be accomplished with DC in a number of ways.

DC lends itself to CTC signaling/dispatching, ATC features, working interlockings, and operations with separate dispatchers. All of this can of course be done in DCC, but again it requires just as much or more additional infrastructure as DC.

While small layouts designed for multiple train operation shine with DCC, small layouts designed for one operator and one train realize no benifit from DCC other than sound or lighting effects.

Personally, I am constantly amazed at the lack of interest in signaling and dispatching among the modeling public  - regardless of choosen control system.

Sheldon

[dstarr]

Sleep like a kitten (SLK)

My question is, the advantages of DCC are very obvious but I don't know if it's worth the expense for me.  Getting the start up system doesn't bother me.  It's not being able to use any of my old engines.  To replace all the engines I have would cost $$$$$$$$$$$$ and I would hate to have them and not be able to use them.

any thoughts

Eric

  Depends upon how many operators you will have, running trains at the same time.  In my case, the layout is small, and I am the only operator most of the time.   I can only operate a single train.  I have multiple trains made up and on the layout ready to run.  But I only run one at a time.  I use just plain DC and I have toggle switches to shut power OFF on my various sidings and spurs so I can leave trains on siding and not have them move when I throttle up the mainline. 

   If I was to acquire some nearby railroading friends, and I wanted to have operating sessions with three or four trains running simultaneously, then DCC makes a lot of sense.  Until then, I find plain old DC works just fine. 

   Should I convert to DCC, I don't have to rewire.  I'd have to pay money for a throttle and maybe a booster and a dozen decoders or more.  And take all my locomotives apart and install decoders, not impossible, but still a chore.  My MRC power pack would be out of a job, but it would probably wind up lighting structures.  DCC is something you can always add later.

[Rastafarr]

BA isn't kidding; converting old Athearn locos can be, well, shall we say interesting? Isolating the frame from the motor is critical, and could take a couple of tries. Digitrax makes a decoder specifically for Athearn conversions (the DATH series, I believe) that makes things considerably easier. 

[rrinker]

 If you want to keep costs down, pick up a 10 pack of NCE D13SRJ decoders. They come in at just udner $12 each in a 10 pack, and are very nice decoders as long as you don;t need all sorts of extra lights, like ditch lights and so forth. While a drop in decoder for somethign like an Atlas/Kato might be somewhat easier to install, in the end it's just a matter of soldering 7 wires and is very easy to do, for a huge cost savings. AThearn units take a bit more work but even that isn't impossible, it's just important to insualte the bottom of the motor from the chassis or else the decoder will emulate a thrown rod and relase a nice puff of smoke and be done. There are special harnesses available but if you've already done one of the first things to improve AThearn performance and removed the long top clip and repalced it with wires, you're halfway there already. Hardest part of the whole thing is probaboly drillign and tapping a hole int he chassis for a brass screw to solder the decoder wire to.

 For some special locos and fancier ones you cna use a more expensive decoder with more features, but for a basic 'fleet' decoder it's really hard to beat the D13SRJ, especially at that price.

                    ==Randy

 

[ba&prr]

What ATLAS engines do you have? Diesel or steam? Some of the Atlas diesels from that period were Kato. If this is true, these are easy to convert. On the Atlas ones remove the shell and look at the board inside. Compare to a Digitrax DH165KO. If  has the same wire hook up configuration, 2 wires on each end going to the wheels and 2 going to the motor, the motor is already insulated. On some Atlas the board had 1 light bulb in the middle. This will be replaced by the 2 middle wires on the DCC decoder. I know others besides Digitrax make replacement decoders for the Atlas/Kato drive. I would look at the drives in your locos first to see what you have. The Athearn ones are another story as the motors are not isolated from the frame on the Blue Box versions.  Good luck. I too converted to DCC from DC.   Joe   

[chochowillie]

Something we often neglect to count as a cost is the price of dpdt switches as used in DC/Block control systems. When I was wrestling with the DCC / DC decision for my new layout, I checked to see what new dtdp  switches cost these days... Lets just say that my jaw kind of fell to say the least. I have a good number that I saved from my last layout, more than I'll need for my new DCC controlled RR.

Yup, that switch cost was what made me decide.

Cho Cho

[rrebell]

I still like DC but in building the layout, I made sure it was easily convertible, also any more recent locos are DCC ready. I only have two blocks on a medium sized ( 15x 30) layout.

[selector]

Sleep like a kitten (SLK)

Wow, thanks you have all been great.   I think I've been sold.  I'll start with a starter system and some decoders.  Does it matter which decoder is best for engine manufacture? i.e. Atlas or Athearn

Decoders are decoders, and they can all be made to work in virtually any DC loco with some care and knowhow...and sometimes determination in cases of old junk.  Not all decoders do all things, though, so you must learn what you want your decoders to do in terms of controlling behaviours for your locomotives.  Some only have two or three functions, while others provide sound via amplifiers, digital sound files stored onboard, and tiny speakers.  They all move the loco, and they all run the lights.

It would be useful to know, though, that not all decoders on the market are DCC.  Some, from Mike's Train House, or MTH, are what they call DCS.  There is some mutual compatibility, but a DCS locomotive is only partially functional on a DCC system. 

Generally, wiring is the same across systems.  Where you must gap in DC, you often have to gap in DCC.  You don't need block control or toggles to get engines to move in the direction you want.  The throttle does that, just like in the real world.   The throttle command tells the decoder to spin the motor one way or the other, and that's how you control motion.  Pretty simple.

Crandell

[cuyama]

narrow gauge nuclear

Most any engine controller will work on HO.  If you are unsure of you engine's power drain, make sure to get at least a 1 amp controller though smooth running Atlas engines of the 80's and 90's should do OK with a 750ma controller.  These 750ma controllers are usually for N gauge only but if you are not hauling 25 car trains around these ought to do fine.  I have picked up the 750ma controllers, which are tiny, at some train shows for $12.00 each in lots of 5.  New one amp controllers run from bargain discount prices of $15.00 to full list prices as high a $29.00. ($20.00 is the median price on the street)

You are using the term incorrectly. The device that goes in your engine is a "decoder". The device that goes in your hand is the "controller". Let's try not to confuse the newcomers.

narrow gauge nuclear

While many brands of controllers work on most all other brand systems, stick with you master controller's brand if you can, but NCE and Digitrax loco, internal controllers seem to exchange with each other nicely.  It is a matter of the manufacturer rigidly adhering to the NMRA DCC standards.

Unnecessary. Virtually any decoder works fine with any of the major DCC system. Good inexpensive starter systems from NCE or Digitrax will be fine. Since many new engines now are available off-the-shelf with DC/DCC decoders built-in, it would be impossible to always match to the system (and unnecessary).

[NeO6874]

narrow gauge nuclear

While many brands of controllers work on most all other brand systems, stick with you master controller's brand if you can ...

With the exception of the MRC decoders (which are generally referred to in terms not used when in polite company ... that is, they're junk), any major player (Digitrax/NCE/TCS for motor/light control, or QSI/Soundtrax for motor/light/sound*) will work with any system.  The only place where you absolutely HAVE to stick with one manufacturer is the throttles/cabs -- those aren't interchangeable.

*note that a lot of people will use (for example) a TCS decoder  for motor/lights, and just add the Soundtrax one for sound-only, due to running characteristics/light features/etc offered on one or the other.

[narrow gauge nuclear]

Again, go in person, to a dealer or some other model rail who knows DCC and has preferably converted a DC engine or two.  They will set you straight on how easy the conversion can be.

Most any engine controller will work on HO.  If you are unsure of you engine's power drain, make sure to get at least a 1 amp controller though smooth running Atlas engines of the 80's and 90's should do OK with a 750ma controller.  These 750ma controllers are usually for N gauge only but if you are not hauling 25 car trains around these ought to do fine.  I have picked up the 750ma controllers, which are tiny, at some train shows for $12.00 each in lots of 5.  New one amp controllers run from bargain discount prices of $15.00 to full list prices as high a $29.00. ($20.00 is the median price on the street)

While many brands of controllers work on most all other brand systems, stick with you master controller's brand if you can, but NCE and Digitrax loco, internal controllers seem to exchange with each other nicely.  It is a matter of the manufacturer rigidly adhering to the NMRA DCC standards.

If you are personally going to convert your engines, you might want to dump $20.00 into the Kalbach publishing compnay's basic DCC book often found at your local hobby shop.  This will teach and inform in many ways and act as a "forever reference work".

Richard 

[jeffrey-wimberly]

Sleep like a kitten (SLK)

I understand I can get decoders to install but, all of my engines are Atlas and Athearn I bought new in the early 80's.  Can you add the decoders to older engines like those?

I have 70's and 80's era Atlas and Athearn's that I converted without too much trouble. The 70's era Athearn's had to have newer motors but those were drop in replacements for the most part and on the Athearn blue box locos you have to pull the motor anyway in order to isolate it from the frame. The Atlas locos were a simple straight-up hard wire operation. I did two Atlas GP40's and two Atlas FP7's along with an Atlas H24-66 and Atlas U30C. I converted more Athearn's than I care to count.

[MisterBeasley]

One thing which has not been mentioned is the relative ease of wiring of DCC.  A good-sized DC layout needs blocks, and toggles to control them, if you want to run more than one train at a time.  This is an investment, more in time than money, but it's something to consider.  A small layout can be very difficult to organize in blocks, because the blocks have to be so small they you spend all your time throwing toggles.

DCC, on the other hand, only requires something of this sort if you want to divide your layout into sections for power distribution, and this is a one-and-done effort.  You control the trains with the throttle.  You don't control the track.  So, the job of wiring is simplfied, and running is much easier.

[don7]

Like a lot of you, I came back to model railroading and had from the old days a collection of old 1970's and 1980's model railroad equipment.

Got the benchwork built, completed a track plan and was up and running. I bought my first DC/DCC locomotive which runs on either DC or DCC and then later I bought another DC/DCC engine with sound.

I new I was only getting some of the sound features with the new engine. I brought my new sound equipped engine over to the local railroad club who had invited me over to try their DCC layout.

well, I was hooked, just had to have my own DCC layout so I could take advantage of the features of DCC and sound.

I made sure I bought a DCC controller that would also run a DCC locomotive. You just have to be careful not to let the DC locomotive sit on live track for unattended as you can easily burn out the motor.

I have run my old DC engines, some of which I have since converted to DCC and others which I do not plan on converting for a while., without damaging any during the last couple of years.

I bought a Digitrax system. This system was upgradable and I have since upgraded the system. I would recommend the Digitrax system, the others I have not tried so I can not really comment on them.

[mobilman44]

Hi again!

When I converted to DCC I had a few "double duty" locos that had decoders.   But I had over 50 power units without.   My solution was to go thru each loco, and decide two things..........   first, is the loco worthy of keeping and working on the new layout?   Second, can the loco be relatively easily converted to DCC?   If the answer to either question was "no", they were sold on Ebay.   Actually, the funds for my DCC stuff ($2k) came half from Ebay train sales, and half from silver coinage sales on Ebay.

You will be much happier if you start out with DCC with just a couple locos.   This will make it less overwhelming and give you more opportunity to learn to run the things.

On the systems, well I went with Digitrax, but almost went with NCE.   Either way you will find lots of folks on the forum that can help you, that parts are readily available, and so on.

For what its worth.............

[CP5415]

NeO6874

CP5415

When these start to fail, then I'll go DCC, that should give me time to aquire the system that'll work best for me.

So, never ...?

Funny, probably too true but I am leaning towards DCC, most likely digitrax

[HaroldA]

Sleep like a kitten (SLK)

I understand I can get decoders to install but, all of my engines are Atlas and Athearn I bought new in the early 80's.  Can you add the decoders to older engines like those?

Hi Eric and welcome!!

The short answer to your question is yes - they can be converted.  For example, I have an Athearn that I bought back in the early 90's  and I was able to convert it since Digitrax makes a decoder that readily works - it's just a little fussy in getting it in.  I also bought an IHC Consolidation last year - these have been out of production for some time - and I was able to convert that as well.  I would take a couple of your engines to a LHS that has an expert in DCC - fortunately mine does have such a guy - and ask.  I was surprised at what was available - for under $20 - and with a little bit of effort I have been able to convert mine.

One more word - the initial start up cost is the purchase of a DCC system itself.  Shop around before making a final decision.  It really does make life easier when you are building your layout and you can add features through the years as experience and budget permits.

Let us all know what you decide.

[NeO6874]

CP5415

When these start to fail, then I'll go DCC, that should give me time to aquire the system that'll work best for me.

So, never ...?

[CP5415]

I'm running DC right now. I know the advantages of DCC & i'm slowly leaning that way. Issues for me is $$$$, like most, I don't have a whole lot of extra cash for the expense of DCC right now. I have 4 MRC power packs that work fine.

When these start to fail, then I'll go DCC, that should give me time to aquire the system that'll work best for me.

Gordon

[Sleep like a kitten (SLK)]

Wow, thanks you have all been great.   I think I've been sold.  I'll start with a starter system and some decoders.  Does it matter which decoder is best for engine manufacture? i.e. Atlas or Athearn

[narrow gauge nuclear]

I forgot.....  Don't even think about DCC  "radio or IR controllers", spare or extra DCC cabs, "power districts",  "remote slow motion turnout control", "automatic signaling", "stand alone accessory controllers", and all that garbage.  That can all come much later and only if you wish.  None of the afore mentioned are demanded or needed until you grow a bit if you decide to go DCC.

Many simple wired DCC controllers will allow all of the above to be added later without changing controllers or losing any of your initial small DCC investment.

So far as DCC brands are concerned, there are many, but the two most used and, therefore, have stood the test of time and use are Digitrax and NCE.  Being an old MR, I like the idea of  a fixed controller box for my first acquisition and the Digitrax, low priced, Zephyr extra was an easy choice. Both NCE and Digitrax can readily be upgraded via their own "network  plugin busses" to include extra cabs and many other accessories.

Richard

[pascaff*]

Eric,

  I went the DCC route back in the mid 90's I bought Digitrax top of the line (at the time) Big Boy system. When I started the simple decoders were more $ than now, so I slowly converted them one at a time. I am now starting to use Tsunami sound decoders. At about $100 a pop, I again am going slow and only doing one every several months.

   I do not think you will be disapointed with DCC.

Paul

[tstage]

Eric,

As previously mentioned, you can make conversion to DCC as economical or as expensive as you want to.  A new, good-quality starter DCC system can run you as little as $200.

Do you REALLY need two new locomotives?  Or, do you just want two new locomotives engines?

Tom

[narrow gauge nuclear]

Like many others in response, I too, only recently returned to MR.  I returned solely because of DCC and sound and for no other reason.  MR has had a rebirth the like of which it has never seen!

Do your old engines run smooth as silk?  Are some of them jerky or won't smoothly plod along at slower more realistic speeds?  Ditch 'em, Ditch 'em all now. (Unless they are brass, of course)  The ones that are smooth like older Atlas diesels are converted to DCC for under $25.00 each.  Keep those and only those.

Sure, you can drop a kilobuck or two into DCC, but that is stupidity. Why buy a 10 amp radio controlled DCC pack to start off and outfit yourself with 8 new DCC sound locos?  Most folks don't have that money.

Invest the $159.99 (street price) in a digitrax Zephyr extra DCC controller power pack and for under $200.00 you can have a controller and two smoother running DCC converted locos that are old favorites of yours.  Do not spend another dime!

Set up a loop or a snap track oval and play with this system.  You are probably gonna' love it!

Now make your decision.  DC or DCC.

If you can visit a layout that has good sound in its DCC locos, (still rare), then do so long before you even spend the $200.00.

DCC wiring is a dream and offers many other unwired features that used to demand a large control panel for a maze of wiring, switches for turnouts and block control.  Many of these layout wiring hassles can become a distant memory.

As others have noted......How badly do you want back in and how vast an empire are you planning?  How much time do you have?  money?  If you are serious, DCC will put you way out in front for the future and allow the best of your old stuff to remain old faithful friends but with a new lease on life. 

Richard

[Sleep like a kitten (SLK)]

G.  And everyone, thanks for your thoughts.  I like the idea of DCC for the sound and the independent control.  But the loss start up cost with a new operating system and at least two new engines just makes me flinch.....