DCC or not

[Sleep like a kitten (SLK)]

Hi everyone, newbee here.  I've been out of Modeling for about 20 or so years.  WoW have things changed. 

I am getting ready to build my first lay -out since then. 

My question is, the advantages of DCC are very obvious but I don't know if it's worth the expense for me.  Getting the start up system doesn't bother me.  It's not being able to use any of my old engines.  To replace all the engines I have would cost $$$$$$$$$$$$ and I would hate to have them and not be able to use them.

any thoughts

Eric

[Anonymous]

There is nothing wrong in continuing to go with DC, if the cost of converting your "old" roster is too high for you. I can only recommend to take a close look at what you have got. Maybe there are some locos which are not that dear to you. Selling them could add to the funds necessary to convert the remaining ones to DCC.

[pastorbob]

Maybe you need to determine first if you "need" DCC.  Not knowing what engines are in your roster, it is hard to make an educated response.  I have been in HO since 1960 (first layout) so when the time came to make the same decision, I asked questions.  I had a fairly large number of locos, the layout then like the layout now was a fairly large one, replacing the DC system with DCC as far as wiring, redoing it, so forth were all questions I wrestled with.  Finally after a failure in the DC system, I bit the bullet.  My layout is in a space 30ft by 33 ft, is three decks, I really agonized about it.

Then I visited a layout that had DCC and I was convinced.  I installed NCE, removed all old wiring and replaced with new wiring, made the needed adjustments to track work, etc.  That was in 2001.  I have never looked back or regretted making the "switch".  I was fortunate because my old wiring was pretty sound and really didn't require too much revision. 

Today the layout is solid NCE-DCC and I enjoy it a lot more for operation than I did the old one.  I didn't have that much trouble with the conversion other than installation of some decocders, but in that time period decoders were larger and fussier than today.  The layout operates very well, and problems are few and in between.

That is my experience, others may agree or disagree.

Bob

 

[tstage]

Ulrich,

I get the impression that Eric thinks he HAS to replace ALL his locomotives for DCC-ready versions vs. installing decoders in what he already has.

Eric,

Unless your current locomotives are junk, you can retrofit a decoder into your older locomotives.  You may need to isolate the motor brushes from the frame on most of them but...it can be done and will be a lot more economical for you.

Very good decoders can be had in the $15-$25 range.  You could also get a starter DCC system that enables you to run a DC locomotive.  That way you can still enjoy running some of your unconverted locomotives until you have a chance to install decoders in them.

Tom

[IRONROOSTER]

A lot depends on your planned operations. 

If you're the type that likes to sit back and watch the trains run on independent loops then DC is fine.  On the other hand if you want to operate multiple trains on the same track - starting, stopping, meeting, switching, sound effects, etc. - then DCC is a good way to go.

If you like tinkering with the engines you can add DCC.  Basic decoders sell for $20 or less. 

Good luck

Paul

[Sleep like a kitten (SLK)]

I understand I can get decoders to install but, all of my engines are Atlas and Athearn I bought new in the early 80's.  Can you add the decoders to older engines like those?

Also  (I mean no disrespect by this) Buchmann  used to be a joke.  They were considered along the same lines of Tyco.  But, the line seems very popular and actually looks like quality products.

[galaxy]

Ther are two staunch camps: the DC camp, and the DCC camp, and never the twain shall mix! Those who have DC will tell you DC is the way to go, those who have DCC will tell you DCC is the way to go.

I am one of the rare ones..a CONVERT from DC to DCC!!! Here is why:

When I got back intothe hobby 6 years ago, I had some old 0/027 and some DC N scale form teen years. BUT I wanted HO always so I started buying DC HO.. Then I found out about DCC and decided for easier wiring I wanted THAT feature, so quickly halted all DC purchases and advanced to DCC. I LOVE it. Ilike the idea of controlling to loco ,not the track voltage!

1} On some DCC systems you can run one DC loco, so you needn't be worried immediately there with that. {mine has that}

2} As mentioned the old locos can be converted to DCC. If you can learn to do it yourself you have only some hobby time and a few bucks for the decoder to cost.

3} there are some nice DCC OnBoard locos for around $50-$100. I am on a very tight budger and have managed to aquire quite a roster.

4} There is also this new-fangled thing called Ebay auction site. There you can find locos of DCC nature that have been converted or came DCC equiped. They can also be relatively cheaper.

5} you can aquire a replacement loc say, once a year at Christmas to spread out the costs.

6} MAybe your brands of older locos are cheap locos that may have sentimental value but not good pullers? so maybe you want a "better" loco?

7}Some DCc systems {Bachmann's EZ COmmand, and DIgitrax Zephyr Xtra} are relatively inexpensive and can be added on to get more amps to run more locos as you progress along.

8} SOmetiems our eyes are bigger than our stomachs..meaning we want MORE than we can actually handle.. many on here will say that by themselves they really can only control 2 or 3 trains at once, so the need to have 15 trains is a moot point. You can, with your DCC system's amps allowable-or with extra amps, run a consit of a couple of locos on each, but still run 2-3 trains only.

9} The DCC systems can handle such extra things as controlling turnouts and track accessories too, so the expansion ability of the DCC sytem can be limitless.

So, don't dispair over the change.

GOOD luck and have fun again!!!

[mobilman44]

Hi!

Lots of good postings here, and I can't argue with anyone.   But, I will add my experience.......

I've been a DC HO modeler with layouts since the early '60s.   Three years ago I decided to build a replacement layout for the 13 year old 11x15 two level layout I had.  Being in my mid 60s, I realized the new layout might well be my last so I wanted to do it right.   

The big question was to go to DCC or not.   I did a lot of reading (Kalmbach has some excellent books) and asked a lot of questions on the electronics part of this forum.  The most important thing I learned was DCC can be as complicated as you like, but it doesn't have to be.

So I built the new layout with DCC (Digitrax) and with all the stuff I got - including a couple dozen decoders, spent just over $2k.  You do not have to do that to start of course.

I absolutely love the DCC operation, and am very glad I switched.   However, that is not a put down of DC, for it served me well for almost 50 years.

[Sleep like a kitten (SLK)]

G.  And everyone, thanks for your thoughts.  I like the idea of DCC for the sound and the independent control.  But the loss start up cost with a new operating system and at least two new engines just makes me flinch.....

[narrow gauge nuclear]

Like many others in response, I too, only recently returned to MR.  I returned solely because of DCC and sound and for no other reason.  MR has had a rebirth the like of which it has never seen!

Do your old engines run smooth as silk?  Are some of them jerky or won't smoothly plod along at slower more realistic speeds?  Ditch 'em, Ditch 'em all now. (Unless they are brass, of course)  The ones that are smooth like older Atlas diesels are converted to DCC for under $25.00 each.  Keep those and only those.

Sure, you can drop a kilobuck or two into DCC, but that is stupidity. Why buy a 10 amp radio controlled DCC pack to start off and outfit yourself with 8 new DCC sound locos?  Most folks don't have that money.

Invest the $159.99 (street price) in a digitrax Zephyr extra DCC controller power pack and for under $200.00 you can have a controller and two smoother running DCC converted locos that are old favorites of yours.  Do not spend another dime!

Set up a loop or a snap track oval and play with this system.  You are probably gonna' love it!

Now make your decision.  DC or DCC.

If you can visit a layout that has good sound in its DCC locos, (still rare), then do so long before you even spend the $200.00.

DCC wiring is a dream and offers many other unwired features that used to demand a large control panel for a maze of wiring, switches for turnouts and block control.  Many of these layout wiring hassles can become a distant memory.

As others have noted......How badly do you want back in and how vast an empire are you planning?  How much time do you have?  money?  If you are serious, DCC will put you way out in front for the future and allow the best of your old stuff to remain old faithful friends but with a new lease on life. 

Richard

[tstage]

Eric,

As previously mentioned, you can make conversion to DCC as economical or as expensive as you want to.  A new, good-quality starter DCC system can run you as little as $200.

Do you REALLY need two new locomotives?  Or, do you just want two new locomotives engines?

Tom

[pascaff*]

Eric,

  I went the DCC route back in the mid 90's I bought Digitrax top of the line (at the time) Big Boy system. When I started the simple decoders were more $ than now, so I slowly converted them one at a time. I am now starting to use Tsunami sound decoders. At about $100 a pop, I again am going slow and only doing one every several months.

   I do not think you will be disapointed with DCC.

Paul

[narrow gauge nuclear]

I forgot.....  Don't even think about DCC  "radio or IR controllers", spare or extra DCC cabs, "power districts",  "remote slow motion turnout control", "automatic signaling", "stand alone accessory controllers", and all that garbage.  That can all come much later and only if you wish.  None of the afore mentioned are demanded or needed until you grow a bit if you decide to go DCC.

Many simple wired DCC controllers will allow all of the above to be added later without changing controllers or losing any of your initial small DCC investment.

So far as DCC brands are concerned, there are many, but the two most used and, therefore, have stood the test of time and use are Digitrax and NCE.  Being an old MR, I like the idea of  a fixed controller box for my first acquisition and the Digitrax, low priced, Zephyr extra was an easy choice. Both NCE and Digitrax can readily be upgraded via their own "network  plugin busses" to include extra cabs and many other accessories.

Richard

[Sleep like a kitten (SLK)]

Wow, thanks you have all been great.   I think I've been sold.  I'll start with a starter system and some decoders.  Does it matter which decoder is best for engine manufacture? i.e. Atlas or Athearn

[CP5415]

I'm running DC right now. I know the advantages of DCC & i'm slowly leaning that way. Issues for me is $$$$, like most, I don't have a whole lot of extra cash for the expense of DCC right now. I have 4 MRC power packs that work fine.

When these start to fail, then I'll go DCC, that should give me time to aquire the system that'll work best for me.

Gordon

[NeO6874]

CP5415

When these start to fail, then I'll go DCC, that should give me time to aquire the system that'll work best for me.

So, never ...?

[HaroldA]

Sleep like a kitten (SLK)

I understand I can get decoders to install but, all of my engines are Atlas and Athearn I bought new in the early 80's.  Can you add the decoders to older engines like those?

Hi Eric and welcome!!

The short answer to your question is yes - they can be converted.  For example, I have an Athearn that I bought back in the early 90's  and I was able to convert it since Digitrax makes a decoder that readily works - it's just a little fussy in getting it in.  I also bought an IHC Consolidation last year - these have been out of production for some time - and I was able to convert that as well.  I would take a couple of your engines to a LHS that has an expert in DCC - fortunately mine does have such a guy - and ask.  I was surprised at what was available - for under $20 - and with a little bit of effort I have been able to convert mine.

One more word - the initial start up cost is the purchase of a DCC system itself.  Shop around before making a final decision.  It really does make life easier when you are building your layout and you can add features through the years as experience and budget permits.

Let us all know what you decide.

[CP5415]

NeO6874

CP5415

When these start to fail, then I'll go DCC, that should give me time to aquire the system that'll work best for me.

So, never ...?

Funny, probably too true but I am leaning towards DCC, most likely digitrax

[mobilman44]

Hi again!

When I converted to DCC I had a few "double duty" locos that had decoders.   But I had over 50 power units without.   My solution was to go thru each loco, and decide two things..........   first, is the loco worthy of keeping and working on the new layout?   Second, can the loco be relatively easily converted to DCC?   If the answer to either question was "no", they were sold on Ebay.   Actually, the funds for my DCC stuff ($2k) came half from Ebay train sales, and half from silver coinage sales on Ebay.

You will be much happier if you start out with DCC with just a couple locos.   This will make it less overwhelming and give you more opportunity to learn to run the things.

On the systems, well I went with Digitrax, but almost went with NCE.   Either way you will find lots of folks on the forum that can help you, that parts are readily available, and so on.

For what its worth.............

[don7]

Like a lot of you, I came back to model railroading and had from the old days a collection of old 1970's and 1980's model railroad equipment.

Got the benchwork built, completed a track plan and was up and running. I bought my first DC/DCC locomotive which runs on either DC or DCC and then later I bought another DC/DCC engine with sound.

I new I was only getting some of the sound features with the new engine. I brought my new sound equipped engine over to the local railroad club who had invited me over to try their DCC layout.

well, I was hooked, just had to have my own DCC layout so I could take advantage of the features of DCC and sound.

I made sure I bought a DCC controller that would also run a DCC locomotive. You just have to be careful not to let the DC locomotive sit on live track for unattended as you can easily burn out the motor.

I have run my old DC engines, some of which I have since converted to DCC and others which I do not plan on converting for a while., without damaging any during the last couple of years.

I bought a Digitrax system. This system was upgradable and I have since upgraded the system. I would recommend the Digitrax system, the others I have not tried so I can not really comment on them.

[MisterBeasley]

One thing which has not been mentioned is the relative ease of wiring of DCC.  A good-sized DC layout needs blocks, and toggles to control them, if you want to run more than one train at a time.  This is an investment, more in time than money, but it's something to consider.  A small layout can be very difficult to organize in blocks, because the blocks have to be so small they you spend all your time throwing toggles.

DCC, on the other hand, only requires something of this sort if you want to divide your layout into sections for power distribution, and this is a one-and-done effort.  You control the trains with the throttle.  You don't control the track.  So, the job of wiring is simplfied, and running is much easier.

[jeffrey-wimberly]

Sleep like a kitten (SLK)

I understand I can get decoders to install but, all of my engines are Atlas and Athearn I bought new in the early 80's.  Can you add the decoders to older engines like those?

I have 70's and 80's era Atlas and Athearn's that I converted without too much trouble. The 70's era Athearn's had to have newer motors but those were drop in replacements for the most part and on the Athearn blue box locos you have to pull the motor anyway in order to isolate it from the frame. The Atlas locos were a simple straight-up hard wire operation. I did two Atlas GP40's and two Atlas FP7's along with an Atlas H24-66 and Atlas U30C. I converted more Athearn's than I care to count.

[narrow gauge nuclear]

Again, go in person, to a dealer or some other model rail who knows DCC and has preferably converted a DC engine or two.  They will set you straight on how easy the conversion can be.

Most any engine controller will work on HO.  If you are unsure of you engine's power drain, make sure to get at least a 1 amp controller though smooth running Atlas engines of the 80's and 90's should do OK with a 750ma controller.  These 750ma controllers are usually for N gauge only but if you are not hauling 25 car trains around these ought to do fine.  I have picked up the 750ma controllers, which are tiny, at some train shows for $12.00 each in lots of 5.  New one amp controllers run from bargain discount prices of $15.00 to full list prices as high a $29.00. ($20.00 is the median price on the street)

While many brands of controllers work on most all other brand systems, stick with you master controller's brand if you can, but NCE and Digitrax loco, internal controllers seem to exchange with each other nicely.  It is a matter of the manufacturer rigidly adhering to the NMRA DCC standards.

If you are personally going to convert your engines, you might want to dump $20.00 into the Kalbach publishing compnay's basic DCC book often found at your local hobby shop.  This will teach and inform in many ways and act as a "forever reference work".

Richard 

[NeO6874]

narrow gauge nuclear

While many brands of controllers work on most all other brand systems, stick with you master controller's brand if you can ...

With the exception of the MRC decoders (which are generally referred to in terms not used when in polite company ... that is, they're junk), any major player (Digitrax/NCE/TCS for motor/light control, or QSI/Soundtrax for motor/light/sound*) will work with any system.  The only place where you absolutely HAVE to stick with one manufacturer is the throttles/cabs -- those aren't interchangeable.

*note that a lot of people will use (for example) a TCS decoder  for motor/lights, and just add the Soundtrax one for sound-only, due to running characteristics/light features/etc offered on one or the other.

[cuyama]

narrow gauge nuclear

Most any engine controller will work on HO.  If you are unsure of you engine's power drain, make sure to get at least a 1 amp controller though smooth running Atlas engines of the 80's and 90's should do OK with a 750ma controller.  These 750ma controllers are usually for N gauge only but if you are not hauling 25 car trains around these ought to do fine.  I have picked up the 750ma controllers, which are tiny, at some train shows for $12.00 each in lots of 5.  New one amp controllers run from bargain discount prices of $15.00 to full list prices as high a $29.00. ($20.00 is the median price on the street)

You are using the term incorrectly. The device that goes in your engine is a "decoder". The device that goes in your hand is the "controller". Let's try not to confuse the newcomers.

narrow gauge nuclear

While many brands of controllers work on most all other brand systems, stick with you master controller's brand if you can, but NCE and Digitrax loco, internal controllers seem to exchange with each other nicely.  It is a matter of the manufacturer rigidly adhering to the NMRA DCC standards.

Unnecessary. Virtually any decoder works fine with any of the major DCC system. Good inexpensive starter systems from NCE or Digitrax will be fine. Since many new engines now are available off-the-shelf with DC/DCC decoders built-in, it would be impossible to always match to the system (and unnecessary).

[selector]

Sleep like a kitten (SLK)

Wow, thanks you have all been great.   I think I've been sold.  I'll start with a starter system and some decoders.  Does it matter which decoder is best for engine manufacture? i.e. Atlas or Athearn

Decoders are decoders, and they can all be made to work in virtually any DC loco with some care and knowhow...and sometimes determination in cases of old junk.  Not all decoders do all things, though, so you must learn what you want your decoders to do in terms of controlling behaviours for your locomotives.  Some only have two or three functions, while others provide sound via amplifiers, digital sound files stored onboard, and tiny speakers.  They all move the loco, and they all run the lights.

It would be useful to know, though, that not all decoders on the market are DCC.  Some, from Mike's Train House, or MTH, are what they call DCS.  There is some mutual compatibility, but a DCS locomotive is only partially functional on a DCC system. 

Generally, wiring is the same across systems.  Where you must gap in DC, you often have to gap in DCC.  You don't need block control or toggles to get engines to move in the direction you want.  The throttle does that, just like in the real world.   The throttle command tells the decoder to spin the motor one way or the other, and that's how you control motion.  Pretty simple.

Crandell

[rrebell]

I still like DC but in building the layout, I made sure it was easily convertible, also any more recent locos are DCC ready. I only have two blocks on a medium sized ( 15x 30) layout.

[chochowillie]

Something we often neglect to count as a cost is the price of dpdt switches as used in DC/Block control systems. When I was wrestling with the DCC / DC decision for my new layout, I checked to see what new dtdp  switches cost these days... Lets just say that my jaw kind of fell to say the least. I have a good number that I saved from my last layout, more than I'll need for my new DCC controlled RR.

Yup, that switch cost was what made me decide.

Cho Cho

[ba&prr]

What ATLAS engines do you have? Diesel or steam? Some of the Atlas diesels from that period were Kato. If this is true, these are easy to convert. On the Atlas ones remove the shell and look at the board inside. Compare to a Digitrax DH165KO. If  has the same wire hook up configuration, 2 wires on each end going to the wheels and 2 going to the motor, the motor is already insulated. On some Atlas the board had 1 light bulb in the middle. This will be replaced by the 2 middle wires on the DCC decoder. I know others besides Digitrax make replacement decoders for the Atlas/Kato drive. I would look at the drives in your locos first to see what you have. The Athearn ones are another story as the motors are not isolated from the frame on the Blue Box versions.  Good luck. I too converted to DCC from DC.   Joe   

[rrinker]

 If you want to keep costs down, pick up a 10 pack of NCE D13SRJ decoders. They come in at just udner $12 each in a 10 pack, and are very nice decoders as long as you don;t need all sorts of extra lights, like ditch lights and so forth. While a drop in decoder for somethign like an Atlas/Kato might be somewhat easier to install, in the end it's just a matter of soldering 7 wires and is very easy to do, for a huge cost savings. AThearn units take a bit more work but even that isn't impossible, it's just important to insualte the bottom of the motor from the chassis or else the decoder will emulate a thrown rod and relase a nice puff of smoke and be done. There are special harnesses available but if you've already done one of the first things to improve AThearn performance and removed the long top clip and repalced it with wires, you're halfway there already. Hardest part of the whole thing is probaboly drillign and tapping a hole int he chassis for a brass screw to solder the decoder wire to.

 For some special locos and fancier ones you cna use a more expensive decoder with more features, but for a basic 'fleet' decoder it's really hard to beat the D13SRJ, especially at that price.

                    ==Randy