BA isn't kidding; converting old Athearn locos can be, well, shall we say interesting? Isolating the frame from the motor is critical, and could take a couple of tries. Digitrax makes a decoder specifically for Athearn conversions (the DATH series, I believe) that makes things considerably easier.
Streamlined steam, oh, what a dream!!
Sleep like a kitten (SLK) My question is, the advantages of DCC are very obvious but I don't know if it's worth the expense for me. Getting the start up system doesn't bother me. It's not being able to use any of my old engines. To replace all the engines I have would cost $$$$$$$$$$$$ and I would hate to have them and not be able to use them. any thoughts Eric
My question is, the advantages of DCC are very obvious but I don't know if it's worth the expense for me. Getting the start up system doesn't bother me. It's not being able to use any of my old engines. To replace all the engines I have would cost $$$$$$$$$$$$ and I would hate to have them and not be able to use them.
any thoughts
Eric
Depends upon how many operators you will have, running trains at the same time. In my case, the layout is small, and I am the only operator most of the time. I can only operate a single train. I have multiple trains made up and on the layout ready to run. But I only run one at a time. I use just plain DC and I have toggle switches to shut power OFF on my various sidings and spurs so I can leave trains on siding and not have them move when I throttle up the mainline.
If I was to acquire some nearby railroading friends, and I wanted to have operating sessions with three or four trains running simultaneously, then DCC makes a lot of sense. Until then, I find plain old DC works just fine.
Should I convert to DCC, I don't have to rewire. I'd have to pay money for a throttle and maybe a booster and a dozen decoders or more. And take all my locomotives apart and install decoders, not impossible, but still a chore. My MRC power pack would be out of a job, but it would probably wind up lighting structures. DCC is something you can always add later.
David Starr www.newsnorthwoods.blogspot.com
A few thoughts:
If you like onboard sound, DCC is the only practical choice at this time.
If you want signals, DCC does not get you any closer to to that than DC - with both signals are a complex additional infrastructure.
Most if not all older locos can be converted to DCC, most with relative ease.
All arguments in favor of DCC are stronger for smaller layouts as opposed to larger ones, and like wise are stronger for layouts without signaling as opposed to layout with signaling - Why you ask?
As layout size increases, DCC infrastructure requirements increase and can rival many DC control schemes.
Blocks for signaling can be integrated directly into various advanced DC control systems, with DCC they simply add to the infrastructure needed.
Small layouts with several locos moving in close proximity to each other benefit greatly from DCC, large layouts can "afford" fewer DC control sections (blocks) and can function well with any number of advanced DC power schemes, computer block control, progressive cab control, MZL, etc.
Only the operational goals of the specific layout concept, including the desire or lack of desire for onboard sound, can determine which choice is most economical or which will be most rewarding to the owner/operators.
All assumptions that multiple train DC control systems require "block toggles" or fixed control panels to mount them on are patently false and outdated by several decades.
Walk around control can be accomplished with DC in a number of ways.
DC lends itself to CTC signaling/dispatching, ATC features, working interlockings, and operations with separate dispatchers. All of this can of course be done in DCC, but again it requires just as much or more additional infrastructure as DC.
While small layouts designed for multiple train operation shine with DCC, small layouts designed for one operator and one train realize no benifit from DCC other than sound or lighting effects.
Personally, I am constantly amazed at the lack of interest in signaling and dispatching among the modeling public - regardless of choosen control system.
Sheldon
I was just about to ask a Moderator to move this thread to the DCC sub-forum when I read David's post.
I, too, run DC, and my layout is a room-size one. It's designed to be run solo, so there's only one train moving at a time, but that train may be double-headed and using a pusher, too. My operations are sequential, so different trains move in-turn over an operating "day", which may take many real days or weeks to complete. There's no sound (had enough to last a lifetime after almost 40 years in a steel mill) and nothing moving that doesn't have a dedicated and observant operator. I don't have blocks, as there's still only a single operator, but I do have passing sidings and other areas where locomotives can be held until needed. All of the switches to control this, plus rotary switches for two turntables and all of the associated wiring (not really much at all, as I didn't need to bother with a bus wire) probably cost less than $25.00. A ControlMaster 20 added another $100.00 or so, as did a better-quality PWM throttle, so the start-up cost was manageable for me. (The throttle and switches were add-ons acquired later.)
The features of DCC, for what the OP appears to want, are perfect, and I'd suggest that he should take the plunge. There's likely not a loco that can't be converted, but it's up to him to decide which ones are worth the effort and expense. I suspect, after the first DCC loco or two, that many of those older ones will become redundant, resulting in not only a reduced change-over budget, but also the opportunity for some extra cash to put towards the new operating system.
Now, back to your regularly-scheduled love-in.
Wayne
I bought a Bachmann EZ Command DCC system with a GP40 for around $80 a few years back. The reason I did this was to see if I liked DCC and not to put out a lot of cash. I had a large amount of DC locos and converting would take time and money. My bottom layout is a loop with spurs and I have it clipped to just unplug the DC and connect DCC. Everything works fine. My upper layout is a switching layout and I do the same exact thing. It works good too. Now that I have discovered that I like DCC I am going to buy a more featured system. My advice would be to buy an inexpensive setup at first and see if you like it. The Bachmann may not be what you want but it worked for me. Digitrax and others have expandable starters too. As for old loco's my first conversion was an old Atlas SD35 from the 70's. Took a little bit to do but works fine and it gets easier the more of them you do.
RMax
Sleep Like a Kitten:
I think you could Consider the Bachmann EZ Command DCC system in a package that will give you at least one DCC loco, if not 2.
I have the EZC and love it..in fact I have two. I have a small layout {due to space} of 3.5 feet by 5.1 feet {yes its small for HO} and I have two interconnected ovals with a 4 spur yard inside the inner oval and a 2 spur engine storage/servicing facility inside the inner oval. ALL it takes for this small pike is literally TWO wires connected to it from the EZC to run 2 trains {one on each oval} and I can even play with a 3rd in the engine "yard" while the 2 go round and round! {Providing the amp draw allows-newer DCC locos run on fewer amps than most of the older locos}}. I also have an EZC for the under the table top tree layout for Christmas.
Now, I will grant you the BAchmann DCC oNBoard locos in these packages do not have sound, just DCC control for lights, speed and direction. BUT you can always add Sound locos later.
Bachmann USED to be "train set cheapo quality" but Bachmann has worked long and hard to improve their locos to be good runners and well detailed, especially their Spectrum line. But even the standard line are great runners.. I Have 14 Bachmann DCC OnBoard locos! They also,,I hear,,, have a GREAT service department compared to the makers of the more expensive locos! {I have never yet had to find out about service!}
At least ONE guy on here is pleased he KEPT his EZC as his digitrax burns out sometimes and he reverts back to the simple to use and program EZC form his more expensive model. He mentions it whenever hsi $$$$ system crashes.
Here is a package with TWO locos:
http://www.wholesaletrains.com/Detail.asp?Scale=HO&Item=160Set&ID=200411080
Here are some sets with the controller AND one diesel loco {there are differing ones for livery names}:
http://www.wholesaletrains.com/Detail.asp?Scale=HO&Item=RGBVCW&offset=25&ID=200429899
http://www.wholesaletrains.com/Detail.asp?Scale=HO&Item=RGBVCW&ID=200401358
http://www.wholesaletrains.com/Detail.asp?Scale=HO&Item=RGBVCW&offset=25&ID=200855163
Here is one with steam if you like there are other sets wiht differing livery names}:
http://www.wholesaletrains.com/Detail.asp?Scale=HO&Item=RGBVCW&offset=25&ID=200429902
So, for a mere $79.99 and up to $197.99 you can get a controller and one or two DCC OnBoard {lights, speed, direction} !!!
The EZC is easy to program, and ALLOWS you to Run ONE DC locomotive too!!!! So you can run your new DCC loco and a DC older loco that you have!!!
Here are some You Tube VIdeos of How EASy it is to do with the EZC:
Bachmann E-Z Command Part 1 - YouTube
Bachmann E-Z Command part 2 - YouTube
E-Z Command Part 3 - YouTube
E-Z Commmand Part 4 - YouTube
BACHMANN E-Z COMMAND - CONTROLLING SOUNDS - YouTube
So, GOod luck with your hunting! and consider this starter system with the loco in it!
-G .
Just my thoughts, ideas, opinions and experiences. Others may vary.
HO and N Scale.
After long and careful thought, they have convinced me. I have come to the conclusion that they are right. The aliens did it.
While the decision to go DCC; or not, is totally an individual's choice, I don't see any reason to not go DCC.
NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"
Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association: http://www.nprha.org/
I went to DCC a few years back. It was a tough choice, but I had a friend who game me several decoders that he was not using (he had gone over to sound). With these in hand, I decided to make the jump. It was easy... NOT. But it was well worth it in the end.
Yes, I still have my switches to shut down various tracks and I would not get rid of them. I have now added two automatic reversers to my reversing loops and that has changed the way that I operate. Some of my old engines have been retired and sold off and I have added two new ones set up for DCC.
So, make the choice. But if you decide to go with DCC, Athearn and Atlas locos are no problem. Decoders can be added and you will be off and running.
Roger Hensley= ECI Railroad - http://madisonrails.railfan.net/eci/eci_new.html == Railroads of Madison County - http://madisonrails.railfan.net/ =
To the OP Eric,
Your interest in DCC has been piqued and evidently the responses on this thread have strengthened that interest. Your understandable concern is the desire to continue to run your older equipment. As others have said, conversion of Athearn Blue Box and Atlas of the era you speak are quite possible. But let's be clear here, in both cases you are looking at hard wired installations that require soldering and wiring skills.
Take a look at http://www.tcsdcc.com/public_html/Customer_Content/Installation_Pictures/HO_Scale/HO_Search/search.html
The TCS web site has a lot of installation examples. Browse around on YouTube, there are lots of installation videos on there. Our old forum buddy Big Al has one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKF7U3ccnco
Someone had mentioned that Digitrax has a special decoder and harness set for Athearn Blue Box locomotives, but this was discontinued back in August, so may not be all that easy to find? http://www.digitrax.com/news/2012/08/20/athearn-blue-box-wire-harnesses-discontinued/
So take a look at these resources and see if you feel up to tackling decoder installation?
I have recently converted a pair of older Atlas, one with the Kato drive and one with the Roco drive, these both run really quite well under DCC.
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
Ok, It's very clear to me the biggest expense is the starter DCC kit. If I need to start out with a 150-200 dollar investment, I can live with that.
Today I'm starting to take a good look at the motive power I have. I'm going to maintenance all my power and see how each one runs.
I think that's going to make the final decision easier. I must say not running some of my older Athearn blue box motives is going to break my heart.. I've had some of those since I started the hobby 32 years ago...
Buy the way what's ( To the OP Eric) OP??????
OP = original poster
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Sleep like a kitten (SLK) I must say not running some of my older Athearn blue box motives is going to break my heart.. I've had some of those since I started the hobby 32 years ago...
I must say not running some of my older Athearn blue box motives is going to break my heart.. I've had some of those since I started the hobby 32 years ago...
Living in Fernley Nevada, about 30 miles east of Reno, also lived in Oregon and California, but born In Brooklyn NY and raised on Long Island NY
As noted by another poster earlier, Athern engines with old motors can be upgraded to new motors that will make them run to more modern standards, but that is definitely a "loves labor". It comes back to just how attached you are. Even bad modern loco's have more detail than found on some of the oldest 60's Athern products.
I was fortunate. When I cranked up again, I changed gauges, (but not scales). Thus, all my old favorites got packed away and put in a closet and I got to start 100% from scratch which I consider a total benefit all around. This allowed for easy decisions to take advantage of all the modern electronics and motor technology, super-high scale, and the latest in scenics and track advances. My old HO stuff looks and operated pretty shabby compared to the new stuff. (except for those old fabulous Atlas diesels.)
Good luck in going DCC and keeping your best runners in the game.
Richard
If I can't fix it, I can fix it so it can't be fixed
With DCC each engine has a code. So can you run multiple engines hooked together with DCC? With DC you just link them together and go.
Sleep like a kitten (SLK)With DCC each engine has a code. So can you run multiple engines hooked together with DCC? With DC you just link them together and go.
Dr. Frankendiesel aka Scott Running BearSpace Mouse for president!15 year veteran fire fighterCollector of Apple //e'sRunning Bear EnterprisesHistory Channel Club life member.beatus homo qui invenit sapientiam
jeffrey-wimberly Sleep like a kitten (SLK)With DCC each engine has a code. So can you run multiple engines hooked together with DCC? With DC you just link them together and go.Yes, you can. Under DCC you can run several locos together. It's called consisting. Several locos with different addresses can be assigned to run together under a universal address (hence universal consisting) or several locos with the same address can be run together (simple consisting). I use simple consisting. Universal consisting is nice but I don't recommend it for someone with short term memory problems such as myself.
Don't forget advanced consisting.
jeffrey-wimberlyor several locos with the same address can be run together (simple consisting). I use simple consisting. Universal consisting is nice but I don't recommend it for someone with short term memory problems such as myself.
That's not "consisting", that just having multiple engines with the same address. (And if your memory's bad, how do you remember what address they're all set to? The standard (and easiest) method is to assign the decoder address the road number on the side of the engine.)
Consisting is a bit of an extra step vs. DC where you just put engines on the same track and they run, but it's pretty quick to set up (at least on the control systems I've used) and it's really flexible. (Unless of course you program engines with the same address to permanently run together.)
Aside from permanently addressing the engines the same, there's two types of consisting. "Univeral" and "advanced". Neither is more or less difficult to set up for the user. The difference is technical: with "universal" consisting the command station keeps track of it and sends commands to all the engines in the consist. With "advanced" consisting the consist address is stored in a variable in the decoder and the command station just sends commands to the consist address.
Chris van der Heide
My Algoma Central Railway Modeling Blog
Sleep like a kitten (SLK) Does it matter which decoder is best for engine manufacture? i.e. Atlas or Athearn
I actually also like these two decoders for Athearn units, but the installation is not as easy. One must use double sided sticky tape or silicon to mount the decoder on top of the motor being careful not to let the motor leads touch the side of the metal motor.
Back to your original post though.... Yes, DCC is worth it on many counts. Even if one is only running one locomotive, having constant power to the tracks opens new doors for lighting of trains, signalling, and reversing loop control.
Unlike many self proclaimed newbies here I have been installing decoders into locomotives since 1979 (long before DCC) with the first CTC-16 system. That was long before the decoders got small and cheap. I have yet to meet a locomotive that I could not convert. Of the ones you might have the Athearn SW7 and Atlas NW2 will be the hardest.
cv_acrThat's not "consisting", that just having multiple engines with the same address. (And if your memory's bad, how do you remember what address they're all set to? The standard (and easiest) method is to assign the decoder address the road number on the side of the engine.)
My main recommendation is to try out an NCE, Digitrax and any other systems you can find in your area before you buy anything.. I did this and ended up choosing NCE, all the controls and buttons are logically laid out. My club uses Digitrax and after 2 years of using that system, I still find it confusing to operate and program with, my point again is to try out different systems and try to get a feel for them so you can make an educated choice. Both of the systems I mentioned have expanable starter systems for about the same price give of take 20-30 bucks, depending on where you get them. Lenz is another top of the line system that lets you use your old cordless phones for additional throttles. http://www.lenzusa.com/ MRC also has a pretty good system that deserves a look.
And then there is the next step in DCC, wireless control. all the systems I mentioned above can be expanded to wireless control. These all use a throttle/tranciever and a base reciever that then tranmits the DCC signal to the rails via the buss.
And then there's Ring Engineering's RailPro that is wireless-direct. This system transmits directly to a reciever/decoder in the loco. http://www.ringengineering.com/index.html All it requires is 12 to 20 volts on the track to power the loco and the reciever/deoder (you can use you're old MRC pack for track power). An onboard battery is in the works. Northwest Short Line has a battery powered (rechargable) wireless-direct system http://www.nwsl.com/S-CAB_Radio_DCC_Control.html Railflyer also has a system http://www.railflyermodel.com/collections/wireless/motor-control These are proprietary systems, but they are NMRA/DCC compatible and can use the eight-pin plugs or be hard wired. We have a guy in our club that went with the RailPro system and runs his equipment right along with our Digitrax powered layout and locos.
So, the point is there are quite a few options now and I believe the future is heading toward the self contained wireless systems, eventually not needing any power or wiring under the layout except for a couple of charging tracks.
Jay
C-415 Build: https://imageshack.com/a/tShC/1
Other builds: https://imageshack.com/my/albums
For running at the club, I just use basic consistign and set the addresses all the same. I also configure the lights in each unit (easy with JMRI) so that only the headlight ont he lead unit lights up when going forward, and only the ehadlight on the trailing unit lights in reverse. Any middle units, no lights. Consist address is one of the unit's cab address, usually the lead unit. Such is the way of life in a club modeling a specific prototype when everyone has the same models and oftent he same numbers. Plus a few members who don;t pay attention when callign up their locos, so any other form of consisting is typically not allowed. Originally it was because those who don;t use DCC would find it difficult to build and break consists, but the random gerfinkerpoking crowd pointed out a second reason. I did try a command station consist at one show and then on one lapof the layout my train came to a halt, one unit running at speed and the other stopped. Or it seemed stooped, when I gave it a push it was actually going the opposite way. Someone else was not paying attention and called up my second loco and blew right through the consist and steal warnings and took control
But enough of this esoteric stuff, we're getting off topic. The OP did say actually installing a DCC system wasn't an issue, it was getting his locos converted, if they are worth converting, and if they are fro the early to mid 80's they're quite fine. None should be power hogs requiring special attentions. The Atlas ones from that era were often made by Kato and are excellent runners, very high quality. Occasionally there is a dud - I had a 6-axle ALco that had a bum motor, due to an excess of the glue used on the commutator segments cotating one segment, but it wouldn;t run on DC either, if they run well on DC, they will run great on DCC.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Absolutely, which is why I always recommend the D13SRJ. It's cheap but it has a 9 pin connector so you cna swap another of the same or even a different brand once it's wired in.
Bachmann preys on the unwary selling those cast-off Lenz with no features, not even silent running, for $20 when the far superior D13SRJ is only $12. Thankfully I think they are finally done with those junkers, but MRC also has a rather poor quality motor only decoder that sells for way more than the D13.
Having messed with goofy DC lighting circuits, my preference is always to rip out whatever sort of electronics is supplied with the loco and connect wires directly to the motor, track pickups, and lights. That way I KNOW it's wired right, and I am not at the mercy of someone else's circuit board, which sometimes have mistakes that make no difference on DC but can be fatal to the decoder when swtichign to DCC, or simply take up a lot of space that could otherwise be used to fit a larger (and cheaper) decoder or a speaker for a sound install. "DCC Ready" is one of those no set definition marketing terms that can mean anything from, it will take longer to get the hsell off than install the decoder to you can plug in a decoder easily, but it will let the magic smoke out the second you put it on the rails.
I have a bachmann DC system. And i have a small layout 4X8 And wanted a locomotive with sound. so what i did was get a MRC TECH 6 SOUND CONTROLLER 2.0 And with a couple of blocked tracks i can run DC With DCC
It works great. And ya You can program the cv's
Price
I was DCC and returned to DC only because my past layouts was a one horse operation.
Today I use a MRC Tech 6 for sound and basic CV settings.
As a side note if my ISLs was a two horse operation I would go with a basic DCC system like Bachmann's EZ DCC.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Ok, stop twisting my arm. I ordered the MRC 0001408 Prodigy Express today along with some harness and DCC decoders for 2 of my blue box Athearn engines.
Thanks everyone for your input and thoughts on DC or DCC. I feel all of you helped me to make the best choice. Of course you all realize, this will cause me to have tons more questions.........
I sincerely hope that you did not buy MRC decoders to go along with the MRC DCC system? If you did, we failed miserably in guiding you to the best choice. Enjoy your DCC system. You have chosen one of the simplest units to use.