I don't know where you guys come up with the twists to what is said; but, some of you are very good at doing so!
Moving on to the crux of what I think: Because this topic, for some reason tends to bring out some pretty childish and heated mud slinging, like it or not, eventually every one of these threads gets shut down by the moderators! The Model Railroader forums, in particular, are moderated very closely and they do not let things get out of hand! Who is it that is causing these threads to be shut down?
This is, after all, a hobby that I, and I'm guessing most of you, have enjoyed for a large portion of our lives! Simply put, I don't like some of the direction I see the hobby taking! However, I don't have the right to discuss what I don't like, because many of you will turn the discussion into an "I'm smarter than you are" jousting match! and the thread will get shut down!
In the end, your not going to convince me that my views are wrong any more than I can convince you that your views are wrong!
If the above is unclear to you than once again I don't know how I can make what I have to say any clearer and I'm through here because it's a loosing cause!
NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"
Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association: http://www.nprha.org/
NP2626 You know what I'm most tired of is the inability of some of the people who come here to allow others to express their opinions! If you don't feel that the high prices of things are a detriment to the hobby, don't feel that the hobby switching from modeling to purchasing RTR is one of the reasons for the hobby's decline, then good for you! Let those of us who are concerned about such things have our own little discussions on these things and just move on to the next post you can poke fun at!
You know what I'm most tired of is the inability of some of the people who come here to allow others to express their opinions! If you don't feel that the high prices of things are a detriment to the hobby, don't feel that the hobby switching from modeling to purchasing RTR is one of the reasons for the hobby's decline, then good for you! Let those of us who are concerned about such things have our own little discussions on these things and just move on to the next post you can poke fun at!
If you are offended by opinions different from your own then it is not a discussion, it is a speech.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
richhotrain NP2626 richhotrain NP2626 You know what I'm most tired of is the inability of some of the people who come here to allow others to express their opinions! If you don't feel that the high prices of things are a detriment to the hobby, don't feel that the hobby switching from modeling to purchasing RTR is one of the reasons for the hobby's decline, then good for you! Let those of us who are concerned about such things have our own little discussions on these things and just move on to the next post you can poke fun at! I'm sure the fact that the youth have little interest the modeling hobbies will have no effect on the hobby what so ever! However, you are right, I don't think I'll have much care about the hobby when I'm dead and gone. Oh, and it is only a hobby! You would think people with a like interest would be just a little more gracious with each other! Instead it's just like the politics of today! Nobody working together; but, everyone slinging barbs at each other! I'm confused. As I read through this thread and then come upon your reply, I am not sure who you are mad at, the OP for raising the issue or the other members of the forum who replied. It seems like a perfectly civil dialog to me. I just cannot decide which side of the fence you are sitting on. Rich Sorry your confused, don't know how to make what I want to say any clearer! Not mad at anyone simply commenting on how people here take a caustic approach to some of their comments which I feel is totally un-necessary, short sighted and counter productive (The proverbial "the Sky is falling" statement)! Still confused. So, you are mad at the OP?
NP2626 richhotrain NP2626 You know what I'm most tired of is the inability of some of the people who come here to allow others to express their opinions! If you don't feel that the high prices of things are a detriment to the hobby, don't feel that the hobby switching from modeling to purchasing RTR is one of the reasons for the hobby's decline, then good for you! Let those of us who are concerned about such things have our own little discussions on these things and just move on to the next post you can poke fun at! I'm sure the fact that the youth have little interest the modeling hobbies will have no effect on the hobby what so ever! However, you are right, I don't think I'll have much care about the hobby when I'm dead and gone. Oh, and it is only a hobby! You would think people with a like interest would be just a little more gracious with each other! Instead it's just like the politics of today! Nobody working together; but, everyone slinging barbs at each other! I'm confused. As I read through this thread and then come upon your reply, I am not sure who you are mad at, the OP for raising the issue or the other members of the forum who replied. It seems like a perfectly civil dialog to me. I just cannot decide which side of the fence you are sitting on. Rich Sorry your confused, don't know how to make what I want to say any clearer! Not mad at anyone simply commenting on how people here take a caustic approach to some of their comments which I feel is totally un-necessary, short sighted and counter productive (The proverbial "the Sky is falling" statement)!
richhotrain NP2626 You know what I'm most tired of is the inability of some of the people who come here to allow others to express their opinions! If you don't feel that the high prices of things are a detriment to the hobby, don't feel that the hobby switching from modeling to purchasing RTR is one of the reasons for the hobby's decline, then good for you! Let those of us who are concerned about such things have our own little discussions on these things and just move on to the next post you can poke fun at! I'm sure the fact that the youth have little interest the modeling hobbies will have no effect on the hobby what so ever! However, you are right, I don't think I'll have much care about the hobby when I'm dead and gone. Oh, and it is only a hobby! You would think people with a like interest would be just a little more gracious with each other! Instead it's just like the politics of today! Nobody working together; but, everyone slinging barbs at each other! I'm confused. As I read through this thread and then come upon your reply, I am not sure who you are mad at, the OP for raising the issue or the other members of the forum who replied. It seems like a perfectly civil dialog to me. I just cannot decide which side of the fence you are sitting on. Rich
NP2626 You know what I'm most tired of is the inability of some of the people who come here to allow others to express their opinions! If you don't feel that the high prices of things are a detriment to the hobby, don't feel that the hobby switching from modeling to purchasing RTR is one of the reasons for the hobby's decline, then good for you! Let those of us who are concerned about such things have our own little discussions on these things and just move on to the next post you can poke fun at! I'm sure the fact that the youth have little interest the modeling hobbies will have no effect on the hobby what so ever! However, you are right, I don't think I'll have much care about the hobby when I'm dead and gone. Oh, and it is only a hobby! You would think people with a like interest would be just a little more gracious with each other! Instead it's just like the politics of today! Nobody working together; but, everyone slinging barbs at each other!
I'm sure the fact that the youth have little interest the modeling hobbies will have no effect on the hobby what so ever! However, you are right, I don't think I'll have much care about the hobby when I'm dead and gone.
Oh, and it is only a hobby! You would think people with a like interest would be just a little more gracious with each other! Instead it's just like the politics of today! Nobody working together; but, everyone slinging barbs at each other!
I'm confused.
As I read through this thread and then come upon your reply, I am not sure who you are mad at, the OP for raising the issue or the other members of the forum who replied. It seems like a perfectly civil dialog to me. I just cannot decide which side of the fence you are sitting on.
Rich
Sorry your confused, don't know how to make what I want to say any clearer! Not mad at anyone simply commenting on how people here take a caustic approach to some of their comments which I feel is totally un-necessary, short sighted and counter productive (The proverbial "the Sky is falling" statement)!
Still confused. So, you are mad at the OP?
No. He is not mad at the OP, he is mad at us for the commentary about the "Sky is falling" stuff.
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
Alton Junction
Sorry your confused, don't know how to make what I want to say any clearer! Not mad at anyone simply commenting on how people here take a caustic approach with some of their comments which I feel is totally unnecessary, short sighted and counter productive (The proverbial "the Sky is falling" statement)!
maxman richhotrain As I read through this thread and then come upon your reply, I am not sure who you are mad at..... I just cannot decide which side of the fence you are sitting on. Generally when I'm mad after trying to jump the fence it's because I ended up straddling it.
richhotrain As I read through this thread and then come upon your reply, I am not sure who you are mad at..... I just cannot decide which side of the fence you are sitting on.
Generally when I'm mad after trying to jump the fence it's because I ended up straddling it.
Ouch! That will smart some..
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
jrbernier The OP was talking about Walthers lack of enthusiasm for N scale. He is correct. Walthers has brought out a lot of N scale items over the years, but it appears that they do not see the same return on investment that they see with HO. As a business, you invest your capital where you get the best return. This is a business decision - Not a personal attack on N scale. The market numbers for Walthers bear this out. Now, maybe a 'niche' market is out there for other manufacturers in N scale. Athearn & Intermountain make some N scale engines/cars, but not a duplicate of their HO line, & they do not do structures. Maybe Walthers spread themselves too far in the market place. The other part of this thread seems to lament the 'dying hobby' and the usual blame of high prices & batch production runs. Lets face it, this is the new business model as the actual manufacturer of the product is in China. Jim
The OP was talking about Walthers lack of enthusiasm for N scale. He is correct. Walthers has brought out a lot of N scale items over the years, but it appears that they do not see the same return on investment that they see with HO. As a business, you invest your capital where you get the best return.
This is a business decision - Not a personal attack on N scale. The market numbers for Walthers bear this out. Now, maybe a 'niche' market is out there for other manufacturers in N scale. Athearn & Intermountain make some N scale engines/cars, but not a duplicate of their HO line, & they do not do structures. Maybe Walthers spread themselves too far in the market place.
The other part of this thread seems to lament the 'dying hobby' and the usual blame of high prices & batch production runs. Lets face it, this is the new business model as the actual manufacturer of the product is in China.
Jim
Jim, you raise some good points. I think the OP should return and sort out his concerns a little better.
After re-reading his initial post, I am not so sure that he is talking about Walthers lack of enthusiasm for N scale. Maybe he is, maybe he isn't.
He seems to be upset and/or concerned about several issues:
1. Projects being cancelled.
2. The high cost of locomotives and rolling stock.
3. The quality issue.
4. Passing on the hobby to the younger generations.
5. Declining NMRA membership.
cedarwoodron By the way, exactly where are those trading card hobbyists and slot car racers these days.
Slot cars are still going strong in the 1/24th 1/32nd groups-they even have digital slot cars.
So,slot cars hasn't faded from the scene..
Card traders has evolved to "magic" card playing-don't ask I have no idea how they play but,know they have weekly tournaments.
hon30critter OK I gotta chime in here again! I won't buy stock cars until they come with smell!!!LMAOROF Sorry - couldn't resist! Too serious some of us are. Dave
OK I gotta chime in here again!
I won't buy stock cars until they come with smell!!!LMAOROF
Sorry - couldn't resist! Too serious some of us are.
I love when I'm walking near the tracks and a lot of lumber goes by. Smells wonderful!
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
NittanyLionPretty awesome, but not so useful or cheap!
Well,a simple decoder installed by the modeler should do the trick with the modeler furnishing the car and metal wheels.The modeler could engage or disengage the sound by his/her DCC throttle or MRC Tech 6.
BRAKIE There was an article in MR maybe 15 or more years ago which had a circuit one could build and install in a reefer to provide sound. ------------------------------ Yes,I recall that article and one thing hasn't change over the years..I thought then what I do now..Sound in a reefer is silly..Of course that is subject to change if I get to hear a sound equipped reefer Now the freight cars with the sound of a flat wheel just might get my attention.
There was an article in MR maybe 15 or more years ago which had a circuit one could build and install in a reefer to provide sound.
------------------------------
Yes,I recall that article and one thing hasn't change over the years..I thought then what I do now..Sound in a reefer is silly..Of course that is subject to change if I get to hear a sound equipped reefer
Now the freight cars with the sound of a flat wheel just might get my attention.
Yeah, the sounds you can actually hear would be pretty neat. If you wanted to see a freight car climb into the $700 range, they could do some exotic stuff like having sensors tied to the mount for the truck so that it can detect the rotation of the two trucks. Then a processor would play an appropriate amount of flange squealing or banging over a crossover. Pretty awesome, but not so useful or cheap! But those are things that you can actually hear when you're trackside...or track half mile away.
And just for the fun of it, I will add what I always say when these threads come up.
Adjusted for inflation, this hobby is NO MORE EXPENSIVE than it ever was. When Athearn box cars were $2 rather than $20, gas was 35 cents, cars were $3000, houses were $40,000 and $10,000 a year was a good wage.
Just because high taxes or a weak economy have erroded some peoples purchasing power does not change the value of other things relative to what people earn.
And, today in model trains, not all the "brass" is made out of brass - but models of a particular detail level have always been in a higher price class - and so they still are - and there are more of them to choose from.
I had no problem "entering" the hobby at age 12 in 1969 making $1 an hour, I'm sure if they want to today's young people will find a way.
Sheldon
blownout cylinder Stock cars that had "mooo" anyone?
Stock cars that had "mooo" anyone?
Oh, and I believe that BLI also had some sound cattle cars.
Here at the Salamanca Rail Museum we see a lot of families with one or two sons who absolutely love trains. Of course, that has a lot to do with a certain blue tank engine, but if it gives the younger generation inspiration, I'm all for it. The key is to get them to the next level which is prototypical modeling with something as simple as an old Model Power or Tyco set that they can play with and it won't wipe out Dads bank account. Usually after that, a parent should be able to tell whether the child will want to stay with the hobby. I've given away a lot of my older HO trains to young families like this. It has paid off with locals who now visit the museum more frequently. We also invite local kids to get involved with the upkeep and operation of the museums N scale layout, and with the new HO layout that is currently under construction. The cost of many new models must be figured into any debate on the future of the hobby, but having four sons, and having to deal with the cost of upgrading the Xbox 360 and the cost of new games, this is still a pretty reasonable hobby, and much more rewarding for the kids.
-Stan
BRAKIE NittanyLion Can I use this thread to say I think those sound equipped reefers Athearn's got are absolutely ridiculous? There's a fine example of what one doesn't really need to enjoy the hobby.. I fully agree those reefers are ridiculous.
NittanyLion Can I use this thread to say I think those sound equipped reefers Athearn's got are absolutely ridiculous?
Can I use this thread to say I think those sound equipped reefers Athearn's got are absolutely ridiculous?
There's a fine example of what one doesn't really need to enjoy the hobby..
I fully agree those reefers are ridiculous.
Do you need these to enjoy the hobby? The answer is "no".
On the other hand I wouldn't say the idea is ridiculous. There was an article in MR maybe 15 or more years ago which had a circuit one could build and install in a reefer to provide sound.
Maybe once or twice a week, I'm less than 30 feet away from an entire train of reefers and I've never heard any sound coming out of them. At least nothing that I could hear over all the other sounds going on.
Heavy J611 With the notice that the Proto 2000 0-8-0 and other brands have been cancelled, is the cost of the locomotives and cars getting too high? I have been in this hobby for 40 years. The quality of everything is better than ever except for the cracked gears that you read about in other groups. $400 to $500 dollars is too much to pay for equipment that won't fun. But I am concerned about passing the hobby to the younger followers. I know my modeling dollars are going down. The NMRA membership is down and troubled times seem to not be far off.I truely love model railroading and everything it has to offer but what is the limit?
With the notice that the Proto 2000 0-8-0 and other brands have been cancelled, is the cost of the locomotives and cars getting too high? I have been in this hobby for 40 years. The quality of everything is better than ever except for the cracked gears that you read about in other groups. $400 to $500 dollars is too much to pay for equipment that won't fun. But I am concerned about passing the hobby to the younger followers. I know my modeling dollars are going down. The NMRA membership is down and troubled times seem to not be far off.I truely love model railroading and everything it has to offer but what is the limit?
To high for what, or for whom? My first locomotive was over CDN$400, and that was eight years ago. It is a plastic steamer with DCC/Sound. My diesels have been much cheaper, but they can sell more units and keep their prices down to make them more attractive. None of my 17 steamers was less than $150, and those were DC. I had to add speakers and a sound decoder.
Sort of like the proverbial, "How big is an elephant?" About this big [holds his arms yay wide]. The question isn't really if the hobby is getting too costly, it is if it will continue to bring to market items that people are willing to pay for in numbers that keep the suppliers/importers feeling they can make a living. Some items offered or suggested don't have much currency with the buyers, and in this case, Walthers feels it was a lost cause. Move on to another idea and see if it generates more interest. Quite a bit more would be ideal. BLI has offered a GN Northern for years, and seems loath to just drop it. It's still on the books, but still no closer to production. Their 4-12-2 has been on the books for about 4 years, but its proposed delivery date gets put back by six months every six months. Meanwhile, BLI's second and third runs of four or five popular items sell out.
In other words, for you, yep, it sure seems like it. Nothing that you can or want to use is available, and what you hope for is being cancelled. That can't be encouraging, and may appear to signal a demise in the hobby. But, that would be a myopic view. For those of us who do find items we can use, if by conversions or bashing, or who find items that are ideal, we find ways to pay what it takes to get them to our doors. If that means sales in sufficient numbers, the suppliers continue to bring them to market. It's simple economics.
When you consider that many had to make pretty much everything they used at one time, and that for some years later the market had some really iffy products, and that today our models look fantastic, and generally run very well with tight matching specificationis, I would say the hobby is still in very good shape and that it will appeal to many satisfied and motivated buyers for quite some time to come. Railroads have an inherent appeal to them, so I don't see the demise of the hobby until the last spike is pulled up.
Crandell
BRAKIE As far as kids in the hobby I seen kids buying trains at various train shows. So,yeah,the sky is falling for those that doesn't attend train shows on a regular bases or isn't active in the hobby beyond the confines of their basement.
As far as kids in the hobby I seen kids buying trains at various train shows.
So,yeah,the sky is falling for those that doesn't attend train shows on a regular bases or isn't active in the hobby beyond the confines of their basement.
Larry-Great post, I couldn't have said it any better myself.
A recent experience;
Labor Day weekend I visited a MRR club who recently had made some changes. I noticed some very new (and young) faces, about 12 of them, ranging from 9 to 16 years old. All very involved in running trains for spectators (open house) , soldering, installing a tortoise in a new addition (those young guys crawl under bench work a lot easier than us older folk) and were very involved and respectful of the older members (one in their mid 80's) I have no worries about the future of this hobby.
My Humble Opinion (as always)
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
To be blunt, I don't think the cost is really a barrier to new members entering the hobby. Adults generally have disposable income and can budget towards purchases. Younger members can either save for longer periods, or ask for items for birthdays and other holidays where the giving of gifts is part of the tradition. It's the mentality of instant gratification or entitlement that causes the problem -- people these days seem to be unwilling to save and wait for what they want (or need).
Those of us with children can encourage them to take it up... not by forcing them to, but by allowing them to participate when Mom or Dad enjoys the hobby. I'm privileged enough to be able to allow my youngest son his own layout -- he's been the only one of my three to take to it (although the middle one has recently shown interest in operations, though not construction. He's done a lot of the scenery work all by himself, although I helped with the model construction.
I also serve as a merit badge counselor for Boy Scouts working on their Railroading badge. Basically, you learn something about real railroads, something about model railroading, then do a final project, which can either be railfanning or model railroad construction. If he chooses model railroading, he actually has to build something -- either a diorama or an actual layout. Our troop has enough money that it pays for the materials for the diorama, or a comparable size of a real layout. So this is another way a newcomer can get started.
Another way to get started inexpensively is to join a club.
And just to set the record straight, prices generally increase over time. My father, in his youth, could ride the bus downtown, have lunch, see a movie, and take the bus home again, for $0.50. To take my family out to a movie -- never mind buses and food -- costs $50. Accept it.
Connecticut Valley Railroad A Branch of the New York, New Haven, and Hartford
"If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right." -- Henry Ford
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
blownout cylinder mmmmm...I keep thinking about this topic because it is kind of interesting to compare prices of other 'hobbies' as well... Another one of my 'hobbies' as running a home recording studio here....just imagine the cost of a good computer system, mixing desk, interface, preamps, mics, stands, guitars, bass(es), amplifiers, stompboxes, and et cetera...then look at this hobby with a new eye....
mmmmm...I keep thinking about this topic because it is kind of interesting to compare prices of other 'hobbies' as well...
Another one of my 'hobbies' as running a home recording studio here....just imagine the cost of a good computer system, mixing desk, interface, preamps, mics, stands, guitars, bass(es), amplifiers, stompboxes, and et cetera...then look at this hobby with a new eye....
Now that you mention it - the other hobbies are not anywhere as cheap as Model Railroading!
I was into Show Cars!!!
Now that is a REALLY INEXPENSIVE Hobby ;-)
I have now moved down the level of EXPENSE to Restoring OLD CUB CADET Lawn Tractors.
I now have to have a Metal Lathe, just purchased a NEW Vertical Mill as well as welders etc. Let alone all of the NEW parts!
Again Model Railroading is CHEAP compared to the other Hobbies! ;-)
YMMV
BOB H - Clarion, PA