At what cost?

[richhotrain]

NP2626

I want to promote model building!  That you and the few others that always say things like: "OMG, The Sky is falling", somehow manage to get these types of threads closed!  There is another FACT for you!

Of course I realize this is a complete waste of my time and only adding fuel to the fire, because that's the nature of Forums in this world!   

I don't see anything objectional in this thread that would warrant locking it.

Rich

[UP 4-12-2]

I don't always agree with Sheldon, but I think he's correct here.

People that want to can and will find a way to pay for it.

I myself am on a more limited budget such that if/when I change my mind and want something, other somethings have to go...I mean no disrespect to all the folks who say they never sell anything, but keep every train item they buy--that's great for them--but for those of us who want to try out the latest thing, whatever it is, that just won't work.

I do, however, very much miss my 46% employee discount that we once received at a train store (they cannot even offer their employees anything near that discount in the present day--because dealer cost has changed quite a bit since then)--lol--and when I did get that 46% discount I was a college student or just starting out such that I really didn't have much money at all, but I still managed to buy some of the better motive power at the time (Oriental Limited Powerhouse Series USRA 2-8-8-2's were not bad at all...)

John

P.S.  I'm "on the wagon" now--anything I buy I keep now, and I'm "retired" from Ebay as a seller--it was really starting to decline for sellers anyway.

 

[BRAKIE]

NP2626

Doom & Gloom prophecy", where did this gross exageration come from! 

From reading discussions like this..There are those doom and gloomers among us that believe RTR is killing kit building and the hobby in general because of the higher price.

So..

The sky isn't falling after all because there are still thousand of kits available.

But,twisting words  around seems to be popular on forums.

I'm in the process of building 3 Walthers  kits and have a Rix storage tank to build plus two 50' Accurail boxcars to build.

[mobilman44]

Guys,

   Do you realize that the OP - someone with 6 posts - dropped his opening post and then disappeared into the woodwork?   He is long gone, leaving us sparring with one another....................

Surely we have better things to do!   I know I've got some hard to get to scenicking that needs to get done, so I'm gonna leave this thread and get to it......................

ENJOY !!!!!

[blownout cylinder]

NP2626 wrote: "Doom & Gloom prophecy", where did this gross exageration come from!  My interest in this hobby is model building and your telling me that the actual building of models is being supplanted by RTR because "the majority of the modelers has voted with their wallets!"  So, I guess the reality is that we agree on this fact!

I want to promote model building!  That you and the few others that always say things like: "OMG, The Sky is falling", somehow manage to get these types of threads closed!  There is another FACT for you!

I just don't get it!  If your not interested in building models, or the condition of the inventory that is available out there, why all the passive/agressive comment?  Find something you are interested in and promote that!

My response:  This may still frustrate you but I still do not see why you think that this exchange of opinions is rife with The Sky Is Fallingism. Did you actually read the responses here? 

How about the various ideas that came forth about the various aspects of the hobby? Not all of it is/was about RTR. Since my thing is more about scratchbuilding than anything else I usually find all kinds of fodder for making up some of my own structures and such.....

BTW...I guess you missed the great high cost of the hobby debates of a couple of years back when there were actually people who thought just this...

[NP2626]

BRAKIE

NP 2626,First I am a moderator on three forums and I'm yet to see real mud slinging.I do see difference of opinion. 

Yes,the sky is not falling it never was.What did take place is the hobby as we knew revolved in to superior models,superior controls and to a degree superior modelers..Some  tries to remain in the "Blue Box" era when others gladly moved on with the hobby.

Like it or hate its here to stay since the majority of the modelers has voted with their wallets.

However..

 There are alternative and cheaper ways to enjoy the hobby that still requires old fashion modeling.

Sadly there are those that overlook those alternatives in their hand wringing doom and gloom prophecy.

"Doom & Gloom prophecy", where did this gross exageration come from!  My interest in this hobby is model building and your telling me that the actual building of models is being supplanted by RTR because "the majority of the modelers has voted with their wallets!"  So, I guess the reality is that we agree on this fact!

I want to promote model building!  That you and the few others that always say things like: "OMG, The Sky is falling", somehow manage to get these types of threads closed!  There is another FACT for you!

I just don't get it!  If your not interested in building models, or the condition of the inventory that is available out there, why all the passive/agressive comment?  Find something you are interested in and promote that!

Of course I realize this is a complete waste of my time and only adding fuel to the fire, because that's the nature of Forums in this world!   

[ksax73]

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

And just for the fun of it, I will add what I always say when these threads come up.

Adjusted for inflation, this hobby is NO MORE EXPENSIVE than it ever was. When Athearn box cars were $2 rather than $20, gas was 35 cents, cars were $3000, houses were $40,000 and $10,000 a year was a good wage.

Just because high taxes or a weak economy have erroded some peoples purchasing power does not change the value of other things relative to what people earn.

And, today in model trains, not all the "brass" is made out of brass - but models of a particular detail level have always been in a higher price class - and so they still are - and there are more of them to choose from.

I had no problem "entering" the hobby at age 12 in 1969 making $1 an hour, I'm sure if they want to today's young people will find a way.

Sheldon 

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

And just for the fun of it, I will add what I always say when these threads come up.

Adjusted for inflation, this hobby is NO MORE EXPENSIVE than it ever was. When Athearn box cars were $2 rather than $20, gas was 35 cents, cars were $3000, houses were $40,000 and $10,000 a year was a good wage.

Just because high taxes or a weak economy have erroded some peoples purchasing power does not change the value of other things relative to what people earn.

And, today in model trains, not all the "brass" is made out of brass - but models of a particular detail level have always been in a higher price class - and so they still are - and there are more of them to choose from.

I had no problem "entering" the hobby at age 12 in 1969 making $1 an hour, I'm sure if they want to today's young people will find a way.

Sheldon 

Very well said Sheldon!  I remember when I was 11/12 entering the hobby making $10/week (allowance).  It was something i WANTED to do so I did it.  I acquired things more slowly than I would h

The hobby seemed expensive to me at the time because I could literally only buy a few sections of track (flex track was out of the question, lol) at a time and if I was lucky, a passenger car (or what limited Amtrak/commuter stuff there was to choose from at the time).  

My income has risen to be more in line with my equipment acquisition ambitions which I am thankful for.  It hasn't quite gone beyond that where I could invest heavily into an appropriate space in which to accommodate my dream layout but I hope it will someday.

[f-unit]

I think we need to get out while there is still time,sell it all and start a mushroom farm in the basement where the layout was.

[UP 4-12-2]

What would I buy?

Some Westside engines have great gearboxes, are well detailed, and may just need a can motor to be updated to run as well as anything else.

Overland Reading 4-6-2's factory painted, among the best looking and running brass steamers I ever had or saw.  They also did some flashy paint schemes on other Anthracite Road 4-6-2's at the same time including the flashy CNJ paint schemes and the B&M Minuteman, LV, etc.  They should all be fine models--they just made a lot so they lingered in dealer inventory for awhile--at least the Readings are still fairly common.

In general, the late Challenger Imports/Samhongsa steam is well worth the money and should run very well.  This includes the C&O President Class engines, on up to the end.  I think the PRR 2-10-2's were also good.

The 1990's Hallmark/Samhongsa Super Crown steam series is well worth the money.  They have coasting drives--very smooth--you can push them on a table and they roll exceptionally well.  Very well detailed engines.

The late Key/Samhongsa steamers can also be fantastic, as well as anything made by W&R.

The post-Samhongsa era Korean builders--I have zero experience with--was out of brass entirely by then.

Beware A-B-B-A sets of Challenger/Samhongsa F units--some don't even couple together correctly or would require a huge radius due to very limited clearance between units.  I sold a WP A-B-B set in disgust at a significant loss because I couldn't even couple them together to run them.

John

[UP 4-12-2]

Train Modeler

John,

Thanks for the heads up.  I have Tenshodo and OMI.  Any brands I should avoid?   Any preferred sources?

Richard

Richard--

There is no simple answer to that question.  It's more a case of which specific models or years of models to avoid because they don't run well--and then if you want real "accuracy" and very "correct" models, there are still even more models to avoid.

Armand Mazzetti and Mark Matto at The Caboose are as honest and reputable as anyone in the activity when it comes to where to buy.

Tenshodo models generally have great paint jobs--though it is thick--and while basically the best of their era, generally speaking (with perhaps a few exceptions) they are not up to today's levels of detail or accuracy.

Here's some I would not buy again:

Do you want a correct Rio Grande L-131 or L-132 2-8-8-2?  Then don't buy any of the PFM ones--not even the "crowns" and not even the last run from 1981.  They are all incorrect.  Piping on one side of the boiler is close to correct for an L-131; other side is close to L-132.  If you want correct, spend the $3000 plus for the 1986 built W&R/Samhongsa version which has stainless steel valve gear and driver tires--they can run forever.

Do you want a correct Rio Grande M-75 4-8-2?  Don't buy the PFM Crown--plus it's boiler was enlarged 10% to make it appear more impressive (actually some other Crowns also have the exaggerated boiler size but I don't know the full list).

Avoid OMI diesels made prior to about 1988 when they switched over to the tower gear drive--which is an outstanding mechanism.  Why avoid the prior versions?  They have drive trains through the fuel tank, which do not hold up very well, gears that will fail, and many of them can be very noisy to boot.  The earlier versions can be modernized to tower gear drive (a friend has done several) but you have to be intimately familiar with all the parts involved, so you can get the right parts you need from OMI--and it takes time to do the conversions.  At least in the past, OMI would help some customers out with all the parts needed to do the full conversions.

Avoid Oriental Limited diesels with the nylon gears--they crack and have to be replaced.  Some folks mix nylon and metal to quiet the noisy beasts down--which works for awhile until the nylon gears crack and have to be replaced.

Generally speaking avoid Samhongsa produced steam power prior to about 1980.  It re-kits itself while test running on one's layout--especially the Rio Grande M-64 4-8-4's!  By about 1982 Samhongsa was producing really fine models--accurate that ran well--but some of them still had poor soldering that still can result in running boards coming loose from otherwise beautiful factory painted models...difficult to fix neatly without professional paint work.

New Jersey International Custom Brass earned the nickname "custom trash" for a reason:  Many of the articulateds look great--have lots of details on them (whether accurate on steam or not is another matter entirely but they look good)--however, the gears suck and require total replacement.  (W&R had offered excellent Samhongsa built articulated gearbox sets with delayed motion so the one set of drivers slips and starts moving before the other set ever starts moving.  But good luck finding them today.)

Hallmark steam of the '70's looked good but didn't generally run very well and needs work to run.

Precision Scale did a number of generally similar articulateds during the '80's (WP, D&H, WM Challengers) that are not the most accurate models (tenders are wrong for most) and have severe electrical issues such that they don't run very well.

With limited exceptions, I generally wouldn't buy anything from Sunset--they were inexpensive for many years and didn't run well at all. 

My 2c.

John

[Train Modeler]

UP 4-12-2

Train Modeler

This is one reason I am moving to more brass, less plastic.  The difference isn't the percentage it used to be.   Brass also holds its' value better

Richard

Yes, brass does hold its value.  However, as one who personally spent (or lost) a good 15k buying and trading brass models that weren't necessarily all they were cracked up to be, I learned a lot of lessons about what not to buy.  If one does not buy smart, one can lose or never make much money.

Again, I didn't buy trains to make money, I bought what I wanted that I thought would make me happy.  Not all the brass is good or will appreciate.  The "cheap" models now will likely always be cheap, and there's also no substitute for a real quality piece especially if it's rare.

John

John,

Thanks for the heads up.  I have Tenshodo and OMI.  Any brands I should avoid?   Any preferred sources?

Richard

[rclanger]

IronRooster: I have only read up to your comment on the first page of this thread but you have hit on a point that I have not seen before.

IRONROOSTER

This is hobby mostly enjoyed by folks in the middle class.  In the last decade the middle class has experienced a decline in numbers and income.  With that a decline, middle class activities/spending has also occurred

You are absoluty on to a very important observation. The income of the middle class has decreased, So it stands to reason that expendable  income has decreased too, hense people are spending less on things other than food and shelter,

[blownout cylinder]

This oughta be good.....

[richhotrain]

TA462

If people are looking for some mud slinging I could revert back to my old self from a few years ago.   I was kind of the instigator in a lot of topics getting kind of dirty.   Let me know...............

Dunno, I like the new TA462, sweet, kind, loving, gentle..................................

Oh heck, let's hear from the old TA462.    

[UP 4-12-2]

Train Modeler

This is one reason I am moving to more brass, less plastic.  The difference isn't the percentage it used to be.   Brass also holds its' value better

Richard

Yes, brass does hold its value.  However, as one who personally spent (or lost) a good 15k buying and trading brass models that weren't necessarily all they were cracked up to be, I learned a lot of lessons about what not to buy.  If one does not buy smart, one can lose or never make much money.

Again, I didn't buy trains to make money, I bought what I wanted that I thought would make me happy.  Not all the brass is good or will appreciate.  The "cheap" models now will likely always be cheap, and there's also no substitute for a real quality piece especially if it's rare.

John

[Train Modeler]

This is one reason I am moving to more brass, less plastic.  The difference isn't the percentage it used to be.   Brass also holds its' value better

Richard

[BRAKIE]

UP 4-12-2

"I've yet to see real mud slinging"?

Are you kidding me?

Perhaps not mud slinging on this one particular forum, because from what I've seen it has mainly been somewhat respectful "disagreement", but the Atlas forum was full of what I would consider mud-slinging and over the top personal attacks.

Yes,I was a member there from 2001 to its final shut down and seen it go from a good forum to a mud slinging contest.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

I was accused of being a paid shill for at least one manufacturer when that was never the case.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes,I recall that..Pitiful at best.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

the few whiny loudmouths somehow think they are or should have a right to be speaking for the masses who actually buy the products, when in fact they don't have a clue what the masses really want to buy in the first place.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Indeed..I never could understand who gave them the authority to speak for the hobby.I even asked once and was ripped to pieces-that was shortly before the second shut down.IIRC the Atlas forum was shut down twice before.I seen the final shut down coming since every topic turned into a whizzing contest.

[UP 4-12-2]

"I've yet to see real mud slinging"?

Are you kidding me?

Perhaps not mud slinging on this one particular forum, because from what I've seen it has mainly been somewhat respectful "disagreement", but the Atlas forum was full of what I would consider mud-slinging and over the top personal attacks.

I was accused of being a paid shill for at least one manufacturer when that was never the case.

I think the mudslinging, and generally misinformed total stupidity combined with general overall negative tone is why both Atlas and BLI have totally shut down their forums.  A bunch of loud-mouthed, er loud fingered, know-it-alls who really didn't know much of anything imo completely ruined both the Atlas and BLI forums.

Even if one goes to the Atlas Rescue forum, the overall tone could best be described as "less than positive".  Many of the same whiny know-it-alls are on there...and depending what competitor's product one might happen to like, they may totally shred it or attempt to discredit the poster.

There was useful content on the Atlas forum, but it was in the minority, and the few whiny loudmouths somehow think they are or should have a right to be speaking for the masses who actually buy the products, when in fact they don't have a clue what the masses really want to buy in the first place.

The people actually selling the trains (who do have a good idea of what the average customer really wants) don't generally frequent internet forums, with limited exceptions, because when they are done selling the trains, they go home--in some cases not even having time or desire to ever complete their home layout much less play with their collection all that much.  My one friend has spent nearly 20 years as the sales manager of a really great train store, and never finished his layout, or even part of one, so I know quite well of what I speak.  That doesn't mean he doesn't know model trains, for nothing could be farther from the truth, but beyond his 55 hour work weeks at the store, he desires to simply have "a life".

 

[selector]

Hornby/Rivarossi, Mantua, Athearn Genesis, and MTH are also making steam.  Of course, there'll always be brass...

[DigitalGriffin]

The sad fact is, Walthers priorities are in diesel not steam.

Before Walthers bought Life Like, there was a large selection of steam

2-8-4 Berks
0-8-0 USRA switchers
0-6-0 USRA switchers
2-10-2 USRA
2-8-8-2 Y3 class

I think there was more too.

And now there isn't a one available.  They phased them out over the years. Likely because more people model diesels, and they are easier to make allowing for a larger profit margin.

The only real companies left making steam are BLI and Bachmann.  It's a shame because of ALL my steam engines, the Walthers/Lifelikes were the most detailed (although lightly weighted) steamers I had.  The BLI's were my favorite pullers for their weight and easy maintenance, and the Bachmann's were my value champs, but my least favorite of the 3 due to lack of fine detailing.  (Compare a Lifelike Berk to a Bachmann Berk and you'll see what I mean)

At the end of the day, it's a business decision, so I can't blame Walthers for trying to maximize their profit.  But it still hurts modelers like me.

Qty    Engine
 1     0-8-0
 2     2-8-4
 1     4-8-2
 3     2-10-4
 1     2-8-8-2
 3     2-6-6-6
 3     2-6-6-2
 4     0-6-0T
 1     2-8-2
 2     0-4-0T
 3     2-8-0

Now I scour eBay to fill my collection, and I'm kind of loath to do that because you don't know who's problems you are inheriting.

[BRAKIE]

NeO6874

This thread's now about the aesthetic differences between the placement of the bell on the K4 and K5 Pacific

Would that be with slanted or modern pilot?

[NeO6874]

mobilman44

Everything's been said - more than a few times.   Why not shut this down and talk about something else?

This thread's now about the aesthetic differences between the placement of the bell on the K4 and K5 Pacific

[mobilman44]

Good Morning!

Folks, I've patiently watched this thread from the beginning and can't take being a bystander any more.  Let me make some simple, straight-forward bullet comments..........

-  The Hobby can be expensive, no argument there.  But so is every other hobby/activity out there, as compared to years gone by.  

- One can go to train shows and Ebay and get all the "necessities" for a decent layout at a reasonable price for used equipment.  If you can't / won't pay for used stuff, then you need to be an armchair modeler or maybe just get out of the hobby.

- One does not have to enter the hobby with "all new stuff" and the "best of everything".   Remember, an old Athearn BB kit can roll just as nicely as that $50 RTR (???) car.   Said another way, dried coffee grounds, dyed sawdust, and real dirt and rocks can make pretty nice ground cover as compared to the store bought stuff.   This hobby was built on innovation and creativity - and one needs to work that as best they can.

-  Why is it we once again have a major discussion about the same topic that has been worked time and time again.   And, of course it was initiated by a new member with little previous participation....

Everything's been said - more than a few times.   Why not shut this down and talk about something else?

-   

[BRAKIE]

richhotrain

  It is a civil dialog on multiple issues including projects being cancelled, the high cost of locomotives and rolling stock, passing on the hobby to the younger generations and declining NMRA membership.

Indeed it is civil when compared the times before the moderators this topic would have gotten completely out of hand.The moderators have been doing a great job in keeping the peace.

I fully agree there are issues with the hobby but,how to fix the problems is beyond the average layman that isn't willing take a active part.

The NMRA and local clubs could be more open to the general public and not like a secrete society..Clubs should be open to student members of a certain age.

The manufacturers need to rethink the future of the hobby..As I mention Bachmann seems to be the leader  in that area since you can buy their newer DCC engines for around $40-50.00 on e-Bay and some on line shops.Atlas Trainman is readily available at affordable prices as is some of Athearn RTR.Of course we still have Accurail car kits,Bowser kits all with reasonable pricing.There's still tons of BB kits floating around at various train shows and e-Bay.One can use Bachmann's E-Z DCC for basic train operation on a simple layout. Of course for one train operation a good use MRC Tech II can be found for around $5-10.00 at most train shows...Then how about the older yellow and red box Atlas locomotives? These can usually be picked up around $30-45.00 at most train shows.I seen the older LL P2K GP7/9/18/20 and SW1200s for $45.00 at train shows..I have seen (and bought) use BB with KDs for $4.00 again at train shows.

So,the hobby can be still affordable for anybody  if they attend and actually look around at train shows..

[richhotrain]

BRAKIE

NP 2626, First I am a moderator on three forums and I'm yet to see real mud slinging.I do see difference of opinion. 

Larry, I have to agree with you on this one.

I have seen some heated debates on these forums, some name calling, some flame wars, but I just don't see it here.

The dialog is not childish, there is no mud slinging.  It is simply a dialog among interested forum members.

To suggest that this thread is going to get shut down by the moderators is simply trying to make it a self fufilling prophesy.  I think that NP 2626 should go back and read the replies to this thread at the point where he first raised the issue about the inability of some of the people who come here to allow others to express their opinions.

It seems to me that it is exactly what is taking place - - - people expressing their opinions and allowing others to express their opinions.

I seriously doubt that the moderators are spending even a moment wondering whether to lock this thread.  Why would they?  It is a civil dialog on multiple issues including projects being cancelled, the high cost of locomotives and rolling stock, passing on the hobby to the younger generations and declining NMRA membership.

Rich

 

[blownout cylinder]

NP2626.    I, myself, do not see this as a case of one must win and the other must lose. Where do you see this?

What I see is an exchange of opinions. Simples.

The issue is not all that complex really. There are other ways to do this hobby. It is a hobby, is it not? It really does not effect life that much does it? 

[NittanyLion]

I'm still relatively young (30) so I'm expecting to see a renaissance in a couple decades after widespread home 3D printers come around.  Patterns might not be cheap, but I'm pretty handy with CAD software so not too worried.

Also, I think people don't compare the barriers to entry very well with other hobbies.  I'd love to build model rockets again.  Even just the little Estes cardboard tubes.  Except I live within eyeshot of the Washington Monument.  Any open space I can find puts me in danger of pinging it off an airliner or military helicopter!

[BRAKIE]

NP 2626,First I am a moderator on three forums and I'm yet to see real mud slinging.I do see difference of opinion. 

Yes,the sky is not falling it never was.What did take place is the hobby as we knew revolved in to superior models,superior controls and to a degree superior modelers..Some  tries to remain in the "Blue Box" era when others gladly moved on with the hobby.

Like it or hate its here to stay since the majority of the modelers has voted with their wallets.

However..

 There are alternative and cheaper ways to enjoy the hobby that still requires old fashion modeling.

Sadly there are those that overlook those alternatives in their hand wringing doom and gloom prophecy.

 

 

[simon1966]

The problem with this type of discussion is that nobody has any real hard data.  All we have are personal observation and the resulting inference from trends that we think we see.  Most of us only see a narrow slice of the market.  Opinions are formed from these observations, and that's the end of it.

There is simply not enough data to say anything with certainty.  So much of what is stated here is based on limited information.

If like me, you have two sons who are active, and attend a hobby shop like K-10 in Maryville, Il. which caters to kids, and lets them run the huge DCC layout every month, then you are going to think the future is rosy and bright and that kids are flocking to the hobby.

On the other hand, if you wandered around the exhibit hall of the Narrow Gauge Convention a couple of years back in St. Louis, then you would think the hobby is doomed and comprises of nothing but seriously over-weight late middle aged men, who will mostly die young from poor nutrition and exercise habits.

Anyway, the point being is that no-one is right, no-one is wrong.  You know what they say about opinions and .........    you get the drift!

[maxman]

So, the OP drops a turd into the pond for bait and the rest of us rise up to take it.

Boy, aren't we smart.