Paul_in_GA Hi Rich. Sounds like we have a lot in common when starting out. Can you give me any advice to avoid some of the mistakes. Paul
Hi Rich. Sounds like we have a lot in common when starting out. Can you give me any advice to avoid some of the mistakes.
Paul
Hi Paul,
My best advice is to make the mistakes; that is, if you want to call them "mistakes".
Making prototypical blunders, as I would call them, is part of the learning process. When I started out, I wanted diesels and steam engines, so I was forced to declare my layout a mid-1950's era layout. Then, after filling my round house with steamers from PRR, NYC, UP and ATSF, I realized that these particular railroads would not occupy the same facilities. After buying a CSX SD40-2 and running it at the same time as a UP 4-8-2, I realized my no-no. I tried to run 2-10-4 steamers on 22" radius curves. I tried to have six axle diesels negotiate #4 turnouts. I still have 1980's era rolling stock on my 1950's era layout.
You make these blunders, you learn.
I painted water bright blue. I built a double truss bridge and two feet to the left, the track ran on a level surface. What happened to the river?
If I were you, I wouldn't worry about it. Just do your thing. Lay the track the way you want it. Put a bridge where you want it. Buy the locos you like and run them. Build a structure and don't light or decorate the interior. Nothing like vacant store fronts. LOL
Over time, you will begin to refine your layout to more closely match the prototype, keeping only the locos that are era specific, etc. etc.
Meanwhile, just have fun, explore, make blunders, correct them. Pretty soon, we will be coming to you for advice and critique.
Rich
Alton Junction
richhotrain CTValleyRR, your criticisms are valid, but I would be willing to overlook all of them for Paul_in_GA as a newcomer to the hobby. In fact, he reminds me of me. At least early on in the hobby. Tight curves, eclectic mix of road names and eras, the bridge to nowhere, flat vs. sloping terrain. These are all common mistakes, but great learning tools. Experience will teach the OP to overcome these learning errors and improve his layout planning techniques over time. I say, let him move ahead with his layout as is, and plan and learn accordingly. He is off to a start, a good start, and we can all look forward to his progress reports. Rich
CTValleyRR, your criticisms are valid, but I would be willing to overlook all of them for Paul_in_GA as a newcomer to the hobby.
In fact, he reminds me of me. At least early on in the hobby. Tight curves, eclectic mix of road names and eras, the bridge to nowhere, flat vs. sloping terrain. These are all common mistakes, but great learning tools.
Experience will teach the OP to overcome these learning errors and improve his layout planning techniques over time. I say, let him move ahead with his layout as is, and plan and learn accordingly. He is off to a start, a good start, and we can all look forward to his progress reports.
CTValleyRR Hi, Paul. Welcome back. Glad everything turned out well with your wife. Looks like you're making some progress. If you look at the photo of the RDC, you'll see how it hangs over the edges of the curve. That bothers some people, not others. Only you can say for sure. Also, you've got quite an eclectic mix of rolling stock there: UP, Pennsy, and CSX -- again, this may not bother you (and that's fine), but since none of the three mixed (I guess you could stretch and say that some Pennsy stuff is now CSX via Conrail, but still). Again, may not be a problem for you, especially if you're not overly concerned with fidelity to a prototype at this point. Now, go pull out a good, thick marker. Draw the contours of your river bank on your foam -- and you'll see a potential issue right away: you have four tracks running more or less parallel. Two have bridges, two don't. Where does the river go? Now you could build culverts under those other two tracks, or figure something else out. Cut out some paper templates for the structures you plan to use, so you can see where they will fit. Add roads and parking lots to service your buildings. Then you should just create elevations anywhere you don't have a building, road, river, or track. Terrain will naturally slope towards the river. Are you planning to put WS risers under your track?
Hi, Paul. Welcome back. Glad everything turned out well with your wife.
Looks like you're making some progress. If you look at the photo of the RDC, you'll see how it hangs over the edges of the curve. That bothers some people, not others. Only you can say for sure.
Also, you've got quite an eclectic mix of rolling stock there: UP, Pennsy, and CSX -- again, this may not bother you (and that's fine), but since none of the three mixed (I guess you could stretch and say that some Pennsy stuff is now CSX via Conrail, but still). Again, may not be a problem for you, especially if you're not overly concerned with fidelity to a prototype at this point.
Now, go pull out a good, thick marker. Draw the contours of your river bank on your foam -- and you'll see a potential issue right away: you have four tracks running more or less parallel. Two have bridges, two don't. Where does the river go? Now you could build culverts under those other two tracks, or figure something else out.
Cut out some paper templates for the structures you plan to use, so you can see where they will fit. Add roads and parking lots to service your buildings. Then you should just create elevations anywhere you don't have a building, road, river, or track. Terrain will naturally slope towards the river.
Are you planning to put WS risers under your track?
Hi CT, thanks. You are 100% correct on all your points. This is just a temporary layout. The real one is above in an image I uploaded which is from Tony Koester. This one is all Atlas track and the layout is from the WS book and video. Tight 15" curves. I have most of the "real" track that I'm going to use to build the above layout by Mr. Koester but still have some turnouts on order with my LHS guy. He's cool and helps me somewhat but I WISH I had a real human with me who has done this before as my son and I are winging it.
As for the mix, well, my wanted me to buy all that because she "liked" it. But I don't really mind the mix because I'm not yet good enough to build a prototype. I'm still learning terms! LOL!
Paper templates as buildings, great idea.
Thanks and will keep ya'll posted.
Connecticut Valley Railroad A Branch of the New York, New Haven, and Hartford
"If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right." -- Henry Ford
Paulus Jas Hi Paul, for some readers who might not know, your plan is the Wingate-layout; pretty well known by books written by Tony Koester. Possible operation on it is described in detail. However not the kind of layout i would build when loving rocky outcroppings, a coalmine and an elevated track. Going back to Wingate: the double track hole seems the most difficult to hide, maybe the roadbridge could go there. The other hole,it is smaller and more beyond a curve could be more easily hidden behind trees. I wish you the best with your family Paul
for some readers who might not know, your plan is the Wingate-layout; pretty well known by books written by Tony Koester. Possible operation on it is described in detail.
However not the kind of layout i would build when loving rocky outcroppings, a coalmine and an elevated track.
Going back to Wingate: the double track hole seems the most difficult to hide, maybe the roadbridge could go there. The other hole,it is smaller and more beyond a curve could be more easily hidden behind trees.
I wish you the best with your family
I'm back.
First, I'd like to thank all of you for your concerns about my wife. I appreciate it. She's fine and at home now.
This past weekend my son and I built a 4 x 8 table with removable legs. We have a sheet of 1" and 2" pink foam on top of it.
Then we laid out that real tight Atlas layout from the video because I had all the track. Everything ran fine and all the locos and rolling stock made it fine around the (GASP) 15" radius turns.
However, I have most of the track (Walther's) on hand except for some turnouts that my LHS has on order for me for the layout mentioned in the quote of this post.
I plan on making a modification of the above mentioned layout. I have read a lot and learned a lot since.
I have learned how to install couplers, install decoders, wire DCC, use DCC, and we have even started building the Woodland Scenics scenery kit.
The MOST difficult thing for me is to trying to visualize HOW to shape foam for different levels, say a street under a bridge. It seems like it is very difficult for me to grasp the idea of three dimensions and how to think ahead.
Otherwise this will be a simple starter layout, modified slightly, one level, no inclines, there will be ample switching opportunities, etc.
I don't think I will have any problems whatsoever with structures, wiring, laying track, scenery, and most other aspects of the hobby.
Also, one thing I need is a tip on how to remember which way a turnout is set for which track. Is there a simple nemonic to remember it? I keep running trains onto the wrong track. Getting my mind wrapped around which way turnouts will send a train is a learning curve for me. My son can just LOOK at a turnout and know which way a train will go. I guess it'll come with practice?
I will send some photos as soon as I get a chance to take them and upload them to Photobucket.
To the OP...............
I've been active in the hobby for almost 60 years, and loved trains for more than that. I've got some comments/questions for you..........
- What prompted you to try model railroading? It can be a huge undertaking, and can be expensive and the typical MR started out as a kid or for their kids.
- I always advise newcomers to read all they can, talk to other MRs, etc., etc. But all this is just a prelude to building your own layout (or structures or other aspect of the hobby).
- I would also advise a newcomer to try their best to figure out what they are trying to model - before buying stuff. By this I mean "what scale, time period, road, etc., etc.". More than a few folks (my hand is raised) have bought stuff and soon found they don't fit their "wants and needs" later on.
- This hobby can be relatively simple/easy, or very complicated and hard. It is good that you are well versed in all the "trade" aspects of the hobby, but putting those skills to work building a layout may still be hard.
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
Prayers for your family Paul.
Your friend Ken
I hate Rust
CTValleyRR Paul, If you were asking me about the layout, yes, something like that would be a good choice for you to get started on. You can add a completely different scenery model to the reverse side. Stein and Dan gave some good advice on disguising the hole. Generally, the trick is to make sure that the operator, in most locations, can't look directly through the opening and see the other side. Putting the opening on a curve generally accomplishes this, then other scenic elements can block the view. Trees and buildings are especially good at this. Again, the problem isn't that it's difficult to do, it's that there are so many possibilities that it's hard to narrow it down.
Paul,
If you were asking me about the layout, yes, something like that would be a good choice for you to get started on. You can add a completely different scenery model to the reverse side.
Stein and Dan gave some good advice on disguising the hole. Generally, the trick is to make sure that the operator, in most locations, can't look directly through the opening and see the other side. Putting the opening on a curve generally accomplishes this, then other scenic elements can block the view. Trees and buildings are especially good at this.
Again, the problem isn't that it's difficult to do, it's that there are so many possibilities that it's hard to narrow it down.
Thanks to you all, I REALLY appreciate it.
Now, I have a real word family emergency so I won't be on the forum for a week or two. Can't go into details but it involves my wife.
God bless.
Paul_in_GA NeO6874 Paul_in_GA But how do I make the trains go through a background? Cut a hole in it . Well, I KNOW that! I mean how is it usually done so it looks good? Any examples?
NeO6874 Paul_in_GA But how do I make the trains go through a background? Cut a hole in it .
Paul_in_GA But how do I make the trains go through a background?
But how do I make the trains go through a background?
Cut a hole in it .
Well, I KNOW that! I mean how is it usually done so it looks good? Any examples?
Possible ways:
-Dan
Builder of Bowser steam! Railimages Site
Paul_in_GA What about something like this? But how do I make the trains go through a background?
What about something like this?
Cut a hole, draw attention away from it in some way.
In the plan above, the hole on the left is being under a wooden road overpass, trees in the line of sight between the left edge and the hole at an angle you won't normally see when you stand at the front of the layout. On the right - don't know - a tunnel portal might work. Or place trees and buildings so you won't normally notice the hole when viewed from the normal viewing angle.
Or cut a hole, and then just ignore that there is a hole there, like you ignore the fact that there are something off to the sides of the stage when you watch a play in a theater. People on stage come in from the wings, but you focus on what happens on stage, not where they enter the stage.
Smile, Stein
CTValleyRR Paul_in_GA Rich, I have no one's hand to hold because there isn't anyones to hold. I asked my LHS guy and he said not even close to where I live. I would have to drive literally halfway across the state to find a group. I can do this even if it's trial and error. When I got back into the hobby about 15 years ago, I bought two things: a Walthers Sourcebook (what they call their catalog) and 2 how-to books, one by MR, one not. Reading both of those books showed me one thing in a clear light: there are many ways to accomplish just about everything in this hobby. It was only after I'd been at it for several years that I discovered these forums and a couple of friends who were also model railroaders. I learned everything in the way you suggest: trial and error. Which is why I support the Nike method: "Just do it!"
Paul_in_GA Rich, I have no one's hand to hold because there isn't anyones to hold. I asked my LHS guy and he said not even close to where I live. I would have to drive literally halfway across the state to find a group. I can do this even if it's trial and error.
Rich, I have no one's hand to hold because there isn't anyones to hold. I asked my LHS guy and he said not even close to where I live. I would have to drive literally halfway across the state to find a group.
I can do this even if it's trial and error.
When I got back into the hobby about 15 years ago, I bought two things: a Walthers Sourcebook (what they call their catalog) and 2 how-to books, one by MR, one not. Reading both of those books showed me one thing in a clear light: there are many ways to accomplish just about everything in this hobby.
It was only after I'd been at it for several years that I discovered these forums and a couple of friends who were also model railroaders. I learned everything in the way you suggest: trial and error.
Which is why I support the Nike method: "Just do it!"
cudaken Paul, send me the name of the Atlas starter track kit again and I will see what I can come up with for you. If the video I watched on U Tube and the layout I diagram I looked up are the one you watched and bought, there not the same layout. Post the here if you can. Ken
Paul, send me the name of the Atlas starter track kit again and I will see what I can come up with for you. If the video I watched on U Tube and the layout I diagram I looked up are the one you watched and bought, there not the same layout.
Post the here if you can.
Ken
It's from the DVD and companion book "SubTerrain Manual" ST1402, and DVD "Build a Layout Fast and Easy, A How-To Video" ST1400.
Paulus Jas Paul, from the Paul from Holland. Reading back through both your threads you are not very good at giving information. Cudaken seems to be the one you trust, though even he does not know which "Atlas layout" you have bought. More important however is the way you handle people with different opinions then yours. If needed your response is clear: I want to know everything before hand so I will not spend any money and efforts in vain. While a posting later your response is: "What the hack, i can always start anew". You may have very good reasons to build a starter 8x4 layout with 15" radii, hoever it does not go very well together with your wish to run a passenger train as well. It isn't the best choice for a more modern, 70's, freightroad either. Hopefully you are learning the world wide web might not be the best starting point for gathering basic information. Books by respected and knowledge-able authors often are the better choice. This forum is great for sharing or checking out ideas. Maybe you could share which plan you watched on You-Tube and which one you have chosen to build. Paul
from the Paul from Holland.
Reading back through both your threads you are not very good at giving information. Cudaken seems to be the one you trust, though even he does not know which "Atlas layout" you have bought.
More important however is the way you handle people with different opinions then yours. If needed your response is clear: I want to know everything before hand so I will not spend any money and efforts in vain. While a posting later your response is: "What the hack, i can always start anew".
You may have very good reasons to build a starter 8x4 layout with 15" radii, hoever it does not go very well together with your wish to run a passenger train as well. It isn't the best choice for a more modern, 70's, freightroad either. Hopefully you are learning the world wide web might not be the best starting point for gathering basic information. Books by respected and knowledge-able authors often are the better choice. This forum is great for sharing or checking out ideas.
Maybe you could share which plan you watched on You-Tube and which one you have chosen to build.
Paul, I'm sorry if I came across the wrong way. This is a major learning exoerience for me. I decided to change plans and do a small layout just to get some experience. Then I will move up to a different one.
I know the 15" radii layout does not work for a lot fo people, I may or may not try it as I have other track I can mix and match. I even have a book with nothing but layouts I recieved the other day and they look interesting.
Paulus Jas Hopefully you are learning the world wide web might not be the best starting point for gathering basic information. Books by respected and knowledge-able authors often are the better choice. This forum is great for sharing or checking out ideas.
Hopefully you are learning the world wide web might not be the best starting point for gathering basic information. Books by respected and knowledge-able authors often are the better choice. This forum is great for sharing or checking out ideas.
CTValleyRR Paul_in_GA cudaken Paul_in_GA Ken, it has 15 and 18 inch turns. This is just the first layout done on a 4 x 8 sheet and it will teach me a lot. After it is completed I will put it away or tear it down and build a better one and will have learned something in the process. Plus it'll go up pretty fast. I'm not gonna use ALL WS stuff, just the stuff I can't make myself. I'll use the building foam for sure. Paul, before you buy anything more () stake the track down on the plywood and see what happens with the tight turns. I still think they will bite you in the caboose! Your Friend Ken As soon as I have the table built, hopefully this week, I'll do just that. But I watched the DVD (it's a long one) and it shows long engines making those turns. I know it's a very simple layout and all but if my u-boat can roll around the 15" Atlas snap-track in one connected circle with rolliong stock along for the ride I think it'll be okay. Remember, this is just the beginning. All this is is just one big test for me. This is my first step in the process. I'm reading all about track, prototypes, DCC, you name it. I've been absorbing all this like a sponge. As I gain experience I'll do something different. I have to start somewhere right? Corvettes dont rust. Paul -- yes, the DVD shows long engines making tight turns. Two issues: First, it's kind of like buying a used car. The salesman will tell you anything you want to hear. These aren't your locos. They may have had to try 200 locos before they found one that would. Second, the guy who put that track down probably has a lot more experience laying track than you do. His trackwork is bullet-proof; yours probably won't be. Also, how did it LOOK going around that turn? This isn't an issue for everyone, but when the back of the loco swings way out, it doesn't look very realistic. It often causes derailments and uncouplings, too. My advice? Take your first shot at modifying a track plan, and see if you can't figure out a way to get those 15" curves out of there.
Paul_in_GA cudaken Paul_in_GA Ken, it has 15 and 18 inch turns. This is just the first layout done on a 4 x 8 sheet and it will teach me a lot. After it is completed I will put it away or tear it down and build a better one and will have learned something in the process. Plus it'll go up pretty fast. I'm not gonna use ALL WS stuff, just the stuff I can't make myself. I'll use the building foam for sure. Paul, before you buy anything more () stake the track down on the plywood and see what happens with the tight turns. I still think they will bite you in the caboose! Your Friend Ken As soon as I have the table built, hopefully this week, I'll do just that. But I watched the DVD (it's a long one) and it shows long engines making those turns. I know it's a very simple layout and all but if my u-boat can roll around the 15" Atlas snap-track in one connected circle with rolliong stock along for the ride I think it'll be okay. Remember, this is just the beginning. All this is is just one big test for me. This is my first step in the process. I'm reading all about track, prototypes, DCC, you name it. I've been absorbing all this like a sponge. As I gain experience I'll do something different. I have to start somewhere right? Corvettes dont rust.
cudaken Paul_in_GA Ken, it has 15 and 18 inch turns. This is just the first layout done on a 4 x 8 sheet and it will teach me a lot. After it is completed I will put it away or tear it down and build a better one and will have learned something in the process. Plus it'll go up pretty fast. I'm not gonna use ALL WS stuff, just the stuff I can't make myself. I'll use the building foam for sure. Paul, before you buy anything more () stake the track down on the plywood and see what happens with the tight turns. I still think they will bite you in the caboose! Your Friend Ken
Paul_in_GA Ken, it has 15 and 18 inch turns. This is just the first layout done on a 4 x 8 sheet and it will teach me a lot. After it is completed I will put it away or tear it down and build a better one and will have learned something in the process. Plus it'll go up pretty fast. I'm not gonna use ALL WS stuff, just the stuff I can't make myself. I'll use the building foam for sure.
Ken, it has 15 and 18 inch turns. This is just the first layout done on a 4 x 8 sheet and it will teach me a lot. After it is completed I will put it away or tear it down and build a better one and will have learned something in the process. Plus it'll go up pretty fast.
I'm not gonna use ALL WS stuff, just the stuff I can't make myself. I'll use the building foam for sure.
Paul, before you buy anything more () stake the track down on the plywood and see what happens with the tight turns. I still think they will bite you in the caboose!
Your Friend Ken
As soon as I have the table built, hopefully this week, I'll do just that. But I watched the DVD (it's a long one) and it shows long engines making those turns. I know it's a very simple layout and all but if my u-boat can roll around the 15" Atlas snap-track in one connected circle with rolliong stock along for the ride I think it'll be okay. Remember, this is just the beginning. All this is is just one big test for me. This is my first step in the process. I'm reading all about track, prototypes, DCC, you name it. I've been absorbing all this like a sponge.
As I gain experience I'll do something different. I have to start somewhere right?
Corvettes dont rust.
Paul -- yes, the DVD shows long engines making tight turns. Two issues: First, it's kind of like buying a used car. The salesman will tell you anything you want to hear. These aren't your locos. They may have had to try 200 locos before they found one that would. Second, the guy who put that track down probably has a lot more experience laying track than you do. His trackwork is bullet-proof; yours probably won't be.
Also, how did it LOOK going around that turn? This isn't an issue for everyone, but when the back of the loco swings way out, it doesn't look very realistic. It often causes derailments and uncouplings, too.
My advice? Take your first shot at modifying a track plan, and see if you can't figure out a way to get those 15" curves out of there.
Well, if I have to modify it I have to modify it. I don't think I'll have that much trouble. I have a lot of confidence, besides, I can always start over again. I have everything I need now, all I gotta do is start building it but I also have other real-world things going on too.
Remember, this is just a start, I'm trying to take everyone's advice and NOT build a huge dream layout right off the bat so I'm taking it slow.
Paul_in_GA Getting together all the materials has been the problem. First I build the table tomorrow. Then I lay track on the flat of the table and run trains. I have already learned how to program CV's, install modules, install couplers, and ran the trains successfully. One step at a time.
Getting together all the materials has been the problem.
First I build the table tomorrow. Then I lay track on the flat of the table and run trains.
I have already learned how to program CV's, install modules, install couplers, and ran the trains successfully.
One step at a time.
Well, don't make the mistake of thinking that you have to have everything on hand before you can do something. If you're building benchwork, then all you need is wood, glue, and some screws. And some basic tools. You don't need to know how to program CV's (yet) and you don't need any track.
Once your benchwork is put together, THEN you need to worry about those risers. No track yet -- it needs something to go on first. I put down the risers and inclines, and cover it all with plaster cloth before any track goes in.
So just concentrate on what you need for the next step. It's easier on the budget that way, too.
richhotrain Paul_in_GA I have discovered that this hobby isn't just one hobby, it's a million hobbies in one. Amen. And, a whole bunch of skills - - - carpenter, electrician, artist, designer, builder, landcaper, you name it. Rich
Paul_in_GA I have discovered that this hobby isn't just one hobby, it's a million hobbies in one.
I have discovered that this hobby isn't just one hobby, it's a million hobbies in one.
Amen.
And, a whole bunch of skills - - - carpenter, electrician, artist, designer, builder, landcaper, you name it.
You forgot EMT....
Paul_in_GACorvettes dont rust.
Real Men Drive Mopar! How many females have you seen driving R/T Chargers (well not counting this latest batch witch I disown) veriest Vets?
Looking forward to talking to you again Paul.
Ken, your friend.
PS I will see if I can dig up some pictures of the Vet I owned.