Gidday, With, Though only one of my twenty nine locos has sound.
By the way welcome to the forum
Cheers, the Bear.
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
Some with, some without.
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
A few more thoughts both for and against sound.
In additon to my comments about sound quality, frequency range, etc, Chuck said -
"That's another area where the laws of physics work against model sound. Sound attenuation at 8 feet is not the same as sound attenuation at 200 meters."
Model sound in our layout rooms does not attenuate with distance like in real life, and our distances are selectively compressed to begin with.
This is OK if we are running one train, and are focused on that train.
But on a large layout, intended for the operation of 4, 5 or maybe even 8 trains at once, this problem of lack of attenuation and selectively compressed distance turns into a din of noise - not anything you can distinguish.
So my take - large layout lots of trains - no thank you for sound - this is my situation.
Small or medum size layout, focus on one train, preferably larger scale like On30, S, O or larger - yes I think it adds to the experiance - an experiance that is more intimate with the train to begin with.
Hard to be intimate with something that is still 87 feet away when you are only 12 inches from it.
Sheldon
We have a bit of both here.
The reason is that we have a certain little one who has issues with RS's that have sound...it keeps him off the layout....
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
Without! All that noise drives me nuts.
Dr. Frankendiesel aka Scott Running BearSpace Mouse for president!15 year veteran fire fighterCollector of Apple //e'sRunning Bear EnterprisesHistory Channel Club life member.beatus homo qui invenit sapientiam
With
Sheldon, I understand you completely. I can stand one other loco, usually at rest and making QSI's 'neutral' sounds when I mute it (note that the QSI's have a settable mute level from off/no sound to 50% of the current max master volume level...a very handy feature for me). Once you have another idling, or even a diesel 10 feet away growling under load, and you want to enjoy a steamer to which you give your attention, it almost becomes infuriating because all the noises are coming from within 10-14 feet distance. If we had a real scale layout, where the closest sound locomotive was about 15 yards away, it would be a whole nuther thing, but even so a bunch of engines at or near max volume in a room able to hold 15 scale miles of track would get noisy, not only with the nearby trains but the other sounds associated with human interaction.
I am firmly fixed on having sound engines...they are a staple for me, but it doesn't mean I don't have to take a learning approach to making them as enjoyable as they can be. For both of us, if it must be sound (at all) it must be heavily reduced in intensity so that we can actually stand it.
Crandell
ATLANTIC CENTRALBut on a large layout, intended for the operation of 4, 5 or maybe even 8 trains at once, this problem of lack of attenuation and selectively compressed distance turns into a din of noise - not anything you can distinguish.
To me, that means the sound is too loud in each engine. I've operated on a number of medium-to-large layouts with multiple HO (or On3) sound-equipped engines running. When the volume is low on each engine the effect is very good.
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
Sound, but silent is good as well.
Steam engines, well they really need sound. My HO PCM Y6 B and Big Boy sound great. My BLI M1 a and Hudson sound OK, and the BLI Heavy Mike, stinks.
Far as Diesels, I have 3 with sound, Blue Line RS 15 and GE AC 6000 and on the sound. All so have a PK 2000 E 8 with QSI. At first I hated the sound of that engine. Now that I have got the sound down I like it.
Ken
I hate Rust
Nothing more from the OP....I wonder what the point of this is? Conclusion.....Some like sound, some don't. Did anyone see that result coming?
Is this just casual interest, going to influence your purchase decision, going to influence a manufacturer in some way?
Of course with a close to $100 difference between sound and non-sound that alone might be enough to influence a purchase decision for some.
With.
It's the immersion factor. Sound - however unfaithlfully reproduced - can enhance the experience. Just as an audio track enhances the movie experience when I got to the theatre to see a film (does anyone really have a sound track playing in the back ground of their real life?), so audio enhances my experience when I'm operating my model railroad.
Generally speaking, I'm of the opinion that it is best to omit any facet of a model that cannot be represented in a convincing fashion. Sound and smoke are a couple of such facets. I find the current sound offerings to be toy-like, and sound makes the model seem to me like a poorer representation than a model without sound. Models with sound seem to be a nice try, but they miss the mark.
Phil, I'm not a rocket scientist; they are my students.
simon1966 Nothing more from the OP....I wonder what the point of this is? Conclusion.....Some like sound, some don't. Did anyone see that result coming? Is this just casual interest, going to influence your purchase decision, going to influence a manufacturer in some way? Of course with a close to $100 difference between sound and non-sound that alone might be enough to influence a purchase decision for some.
A manufacturer who reads this and similar informal "polls" on the various forum may indeed be influenced. The 50/50 or 60/40 numbers and the stated reasons may reinforce the continued production of both sound and non sound models. It may direct them toward choices like Bachmann made with the EM-1, making sound an easily added option. It may tell them that lowering the cost may increase sales some.
The technical opinions offered by myself and others may help some understand their own mixed feelings about the issue, allowing them to make a better informed personal choice.
Sharing thoughts, without feeling pressured to be politically or "pop culture" correct, is never a bad thing in my view.
It seems to me from reading all the replies that even many who are very much into sound understand its weak points and problems, and many have their own "fixes" and standards regarding sound and its use.
Without.
Let me explain--I don't need sound IN the locomotives, those teeny tiny HO scale speakers to me, tend to sound like the original locomotive sounds were recorded in a high school men's room with the doors shut, LOL! And the factory settings tend to be set at "Mother In Law". However, I DO like sound, and so I've equipped the layout with an under-table Soundtraxx Heritage Steam doppler system coming out of fairly high-quality speakers spread around under the layout, which means I can turn it down comfortably low and still get a nice, full effect on my steamers (which as you know by now are all older brass). And with the Doppler effect used sparingly, I can approximate sound 'movement' with the locomotives. Works for me.
Oh yah, I do have a couple of diesels--a sound equipped BLI E-6 set and a Genesis F-3 set. They growl softly. That's all I need from them.
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
With sound.
With. Initially I thought I'd want only one or two with sound. But I've really come to enjoy it.
Just had my first sound equipped loco ran on DCC few days ago. From now it will be WITH.
Guy
Modeling CNR in the 50's
twhite Without. Let me explain--I don't need sound IN the locomotives, those teeny tiny HO scale speakers to me, tend to sound like the original locomotive sounds were recorded in a high school men's room with the doors shut, LOL! And the factory settings tend to be set at "Mother In Law". However, I DO like sound, and so I've equipped the layout with an under-table Soundtraxx Heritage Steam doppler system coming out of fairly high-quality speakers spread around under the layout, which means I can turn it down comfortably low and still get a nice, full effect on my steamers (which as you know by now are all older brass). And with the Doppler effect used sparingly, I can approximate sound 'movement' with the locomotives. Works for me. Oh yah, I do have a couple of diesels--a sound equipped BLI E-6 set and a Genesis F-3 set. They growl softly. That's all I need from them. Tom
While I have not done it yet, I too am considering something like Tom as done.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL twhite: Without. Let me explain--I don't need sound IN the locomotives, those teeny tiny HO scale speakers to me, tend to sound like the original locomotive sounds were recorded in a high school men's room with the doors shut, LOL! And the factory settings tend to be set at "Mother In Law". However, I DO like sound, and so I've equipped the layout with an under-table Soundtraxx Heritage Steam doppler system coming out of fairly high-quality speakers spread around under the layout, which means I can turn it down comfortably low and still get a nice, full effect on my steamers (which as you know by now are all older brass). And with the Doppler effect used sparingly, I can approximate sound 'movement' with the locomotives. Works for me. Oh yah, I do have a couple of diesels--a sound equipped BLI E-6 set and a Genesis F-3 set. They growl softly. That's all I need from them. Tom While I have not done it yet, I too am considering something like Tom as done. Sheldon
twhite: Without. Let me explain--I don't need sound IN the locomotives, those teeny tiny HO scale speakers to me, tend to sound like the original locomotive sounds were recorded in a high school men's room with the doors shut, LOL! And the factory settings tend to be set at "Mother In Law". However, I DO like sound, and so I've equipped the layout with an under-table Soundtraxx Heritage Steam doppler system coming out of fairly high-quality speakers spread around under the layout, which means I can turn it down comfortably low and still get a nice, full effect on my steamers (which as you know by now are all older brass). And with the Doppler effect used sparingly, I can approximate sound 'movement' with the locomotives. Works for me. Oh yah, I do have a couple of diesels--a sound equipped BLI E-6 set and a Genesis F-3 set. They growl softly. That's all I need from them. Tom
This concept sounds like a great idea and superior to the "sound" emitting from the present day sound systems on locomotives, "equipped with sound" makes me fall back on "newer is not necessarily better" let's hope the new generation is more realistic, but when you are operating with a 1" speaker, hence the results.
To be honest - either way. I'm more interested in the particular locomotive than if it has sound or not.
If it comes with sound - great; if doesn't - no bother. I can always put sound in if I want to.and/or can.
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
With!! Smoke and sound all the way!
WITH........
check out a video of mine on you tube.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-CrDrRsWs0
i only buy sound locos now or put sound units in them ... when i have non railroad visitors i turn up the sound to the max they love the loud sound.... i like to show off.... however i prefer mid sound..... my old layout on the movies was 30 ft x 20ft.... my new one is 40ft x 20ft so it is nice to have the trains aproach and then go away.... peter
Thank you all for your opinions.
The reason for the post is that I work for a hobby store that sales HO Locomotives, and the store policy was, if we were going to stock expensive, high detailed locomotives, they needed to be with sound, because no one is going to buy the NO sound Model.
BNSFnut57 Thank you all for your opinions. The reason for the post is that I work for a hobby store that sales HO Locomotives, and the store policy was, if we were going to stock expensive, high detailed locomotives, they needed to be with sound, because no one is going to buy the NO sound Model.
Looks like your boss is missing about 40% of the business out there to be had.
About 45%
At least on board the locomotive.
- Douglas
"Looks like your boss is missing about 40% of the business out there to be had."
I see no problem stocking locos that have no sound. Some of the Atlas locos come in the Silver Series variety (w/o sound and decoder) as well as the Master Series (decoder w/sound).
However, I'm not sure how that 40% number is derived. Looking at the responses to this thread as well as several other threads on the topic, for any particular loco offering there are those who:
a. won't buy the loco because the C4400-CW doesn't fit their era
b. if they buy the loco they will rip out the electricals anyway because it will otherwise not behave properly with their other locos.
c. model the East Bolivian Railways narrow gage and shouldn't even have an opinion on whether or not the C4400-CW comes with sound or without.
If I were a shop owner, I think I'd like to know what the real percentage of people I'm not catering to is.
maxman,
As pointed out by doughless and myself, somewhere between 40% and 45% of the people who responed to this thread answered "no" to onboard sound and/or DCC.
Like myself, I suspect most of that 42.5% does not want to spend and extra $100 on electronics they will rip out.
Those responses had nothing to do with a specific loco, era, etc. - it as a simple yes or no to sound.
OVER 40% voted no.
I will by stuff like Bachmann locos with the $15 DCC decoder I can easily unplug and bypass - but buy a sound loco and remove the sound - not happening - especially not at any "normal" price.
Sheldon,
Before you get too deeply into this, I just piggybacked off of the math I assumed you did and extrapolated a guessitmate. I did not verify it. I hope you actually calculated it because....... at this moment........ there is some smarty-pants out there calculating it and if the answer is, say, 37.8%, he'll put it in your face for the next 4 pages of this thread....
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After thinking about various things that I do and do not do in this hobby, I don't know if cost is that big of a factor. After all, I own 50 more locomotives than I need, so I'm obviously willing to throw money at something if I want it.
Which is the point... I don't want on-board sound. Just like I don't want many other things; dcc, brass, autoracks, doublestacks, cabooses, mow stock..... The bottom line for me is that this is a hobby, where analysis and rational thought about what I buy doesn't always prevail.
I can safely say that all of the things that I have, I have because I want them, and the things I do not have, I do not have because I don't want them.
I'll leave all of the analysis and rational decision making for my day job.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL maxman, As pointed out by doughless and myself, somewhere between 40% and 45% of the people who responed to this thread answered "no" to onboard sound and/or DCC. Like myself, I suspect most of that 42.5% does not want to spend and extra $100 on electronics they will rip out. Those responses had nothing to do with a specific loco, era, etc. - it as a simple yes or no to sound. OVER 40% voted no. Sheldon
Au contraire. The original post stated "when buying an expensive locomotive, say an Athearn Genesis..." If the hobby shop person is trying to decide whether to stock sound versus non-sound, why should he care what those who would never buy that loco think?
I do think that the owner needs to make those decisions on a loco by loco basis, and after doing some sort of analysis of what his local clientele desires and what their buying habits are. If I, or you, were the owner, I don't believe that I would be making decisions based on the opinions of those who will never be my customers no matter what I sell.
The numbers are not so accurate, because the peoples that says no to sound are often more inclined to answer in a thread like this, as opposed to those that have sound locos already......
And the number of people building big layouts with DC, blocks, sections and rotary switches etc. etc. must be real big as well?.........
If I wasn't a DCC user already, I would be by now as I build a 22' x 15' layout....... Wich by the way will be full of sweet sounding locos!!
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