I still don't know how they claim. To still have a metal finish, but just not as shiny. I think that's BS.
Here is a side-by-side photo of my OLD first release Super Chief RPO, and the NEW El Cap RPO.
Can you tell me which one is which?
Michael
CEO- Mile-HI-RailroadPrototype: D&RGW Moffat Line 1989
Hopefully Walthers will resolve this issue and get the metal finish plating right for next year's passenger train: The Southern Crescent
Texas Zepher I have called Walther's today. The Customer Service department call up the catalog entry and agreed that it seems from the avertisement the cars should not be painted but plated. She then sent me to the parts and warranty department where I had to leave a message. I will post what they say. I'm afraid I might have to cancel my entire order. Drat drat & double drat. I already sold my Hallmark Brass set in anticipation of these coming in.
I have called Walther's today. The Customer Service department call up the catalog entry and agreed that it seems from the avertisement the cars should not be painted but plated. She then sent me to the parts and warranty department where I had to leave a message. I will post what they say.
I'm afraid I might have to cancel my entire order. Drat drat & double drat. I already sold my Hallmark Brass set in anticipation of these coming in.
I have retained my 11 car brass set because of several issues.
CZ
mlehman Time -- and sales -- will ultimately tell which preference in finishes the market prefers.
Time -- and sales -- will ultimately tell which preference in finishes the market prefers.
I think that sums it up about as well as anyone can put it.
Rich
Alton Junction
Antonio,
To me, it's still the look that matters to me, not the way to get it. Interestingly, I was going to post this anyway and just read through the thread catching up and just read that's pretty much Walthers' reason, too.
I actually have a string of BLI CZ cars. To me, they got things just about right. I think they're plated? I was actually leery of it before they arrived, because of my worry that it would look "plated." Somehow, BLI got this just right and there was no need to worry. But I've seen others and plating is still something that doesn't always work for me. The BLI Zephyr is the exception that proves the rule in my opinion.
Your last pic below illustrates what the difference is. Getting that sort of light in the layout room is tough under any circumstances. The observer rarely stands that close to the model. And my impression of the way plating appears to me is that it just doesn't work as well with the 3 foot rule or under most layout lighting conditions. The glare and reflection just don't scale. You get something, um, different most of the time.
I swear Walthers didn't ask me to say this, but I think they've summed it up pretty well in corp-speak. They're not pulling any bait-and-switch and I'm sure are mortified if people think it's just a matter of cutting costs. Not doubt, the switch cost them money up front, unless they just pulled it out of their hat, because they put effort into looking into the matter and then doing something about complaints form those raising these concerns over the previous run.
Also note that Walthers said the change was precipitated by, well, pretty much what I just said, but said by customers who objected to this aspect of the finish (too much of the plated look, etc) on the earlier run. Guess Walthers can't win, looks like someone's going to be unhappy. Time -- and sales -- will ultimately tell which preference in finishes the market prefers.
Anyway, I don't want to be negative about YOUR preferences. You're disappointed, but I just wanted to point out that some may not see this as a flaw, instead seeing it as a feature.
Mike
AntonioFP45 You've got my curiosity. Specifically, how do the plated models produced by Walthers, and let's throw in BLI, look downright toy like? http://www.rcgrabbag.com/archives/walthers-super-chief If you're only judging by a photo then it's definitely an unfair comparative gauge. Metalized reflective finishes will starkly contrast under varying lighting conditions much more so than solid colors. Have you looked at a plated unit up close and personal? Not criticizing you, but I've been a modeler since the late 1970s and having ridden trains with Budd cars in the consist, my attitude regarding plating is more of "It's about stinkin time!" Now, grant it, my primary criticism of modelers that purchase plated units is that generally, THEY WON'T WEATHER THEM! That does drive me a bit nuts sometimes. I've looked at photos of the prototype Super Chief, El Capitan, Burlington's "Zephyrs", Seaboard's Silver Meteor, and even at their cleanest they still exhibited some dust and grime, especially around the diaphrams and underbody. SNIP Maybe it's my age, but to me and some of the modelers I know the traditional "whitish" silver finish on HO and N scale corrugated passenger cars made them look more toylike. You've likely seen this before, but below is modern example I like to use to respectfully illustrate the point:SNIP
You've got my curiosity. Specifically, how do the plated models produced by Walthers, and let's throw in BLI, look downright toy like?
http://www.rcgrabbag.com/archives/walthers-super-chief
If you're only judging by a photo then it's definitely an unfair comparative gauge. Metalized reflective finishes will starkly contrast under varying lighting conditions much more so than solid colors.
Have you looked at a plated unit up close and personal? Not criticizing you, but I've been a modeler since the late 1970s and having ridden trains with Budd cars in the consist, my attitude regarding plating is more of "It's about stinkin time!"
Now, grant it, my primary criticism of modelers that purchase plated units is that generally, THEY WON'T WEATHER THEM! That does drive me a bit nuts sometimes. I've looked at photos of the prototype Super Chief, El Capitan, Burlington's "Zephyrs", Seaboard's Silver Meteor, and even at their cleanest they still exhibited some dust and grime, especially around the diaphrams and underbody.
SNIP
Maybe it's my age, but to me and some of the modelers I know the traditional "whitish" silver finish on HO and N scale corrugated passenger cars made them look more toylike.
You've likely seen this before, but below is modern example I like to use to respectfully illustrate the point:SNIP
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
Uh, I don't collect train car boxes, I collect train cars to operate. Boxes are relegated to a storage area for future use so I can't get excited because the boxes are low class and cheepo. So are a lot of other things today.
Also I think the explanation about the car finishes is probably very valid. Since I don't model Santa Fe passenger operations, I don't have any of the cars, but I am still a "fussy" Santa Fe modeler otherwise, and I just don't get my tizzie in a twirl about small stuff.
Bob
Very interesting.
Maybe you could have commicated that in your advertising Walthers.
"new/refined realistic metal finish" or something like that.
Walthers received a lot of positive feedback with our release of the plated Santa Fe Super Chief in 2010. We also received some constructive criticism that cited the cars' finish as too shiny and bright. Walthers decided to refine the plating to be more realistic, especially as light plays off the surface. Our design team sought out a new vendor to apply the real metal finish. Through a rigorous sampling process Walthers found a plated metal finish that we feel is more accurate to the prototype's appearance as it would be seen in service, and it is incorporated on Walthers new HO scale Santa Fe El Capitan cars.
Real stainless steel cars had a wide variety of shine, so go ahead and combine your Super Chief and El Cap consists, just as the Santa Fe did in the 60's.
Your Friends at Walthers
Maybe already said in post, but just another example of why pre-ordering is a good deal only for the seller.
Richard
BIG JERR theres only one reason to change vendors if the quality is there, somebody says they can do it cheaper . and they should submit a product sample that is approved by someone at Walther's .
theres only one reason to change vendors if the quality is there, somebody says they can do it cheaper . and they should submit a product sample that is approved by someone at Walther's .
No,
The situation in China is more complex than that.
There are more customers than factories to produce the goods and a factory can decline to produce a follow -on product depending upon their workload. Walthers may not have been able to get a suitable production slot at any price with the factory that made the plated "Super Chief" cars, for example.
Because of this, prices are rising, but this is exacerbated by the fall of the US dollar relative to other currencies. But long lead times are affecting companies in other countries as they wait for production slots to become available.
M636C
ChadLRyan Rich, danke schoen!!!! I really hope this gets worked out, to everyones satisfaction.
Rich, danke schoen!!!!
I really hope this gets worked out, to everyones satisfaction.
I still want to hear what Amy has to say at Walthers.
ChadLRyan Na, I am totally with you man, some of my text comes out 'harsh' at times.. (cuz it's text without tone & inflection.. apologies!) I would have had a 'serious windup' had I had the coin to pre-order these.. I also am a victim of corporate operations, hence -No Coin! hah hah... I think folks are taking all this in & really wondering what is going on, as I am, as I posted. This could be a real serious 'deal' to hit one of the major suppliers. I was only saying or really trying to have empathy for those who are dissapointed with this, & also thinking that there could be a huge (& unexpected) backlash on the issue. I really don't think anything was intentional, but an error (now a very serious one) seems to have occured!!!
Na, I am totally with you man, some of my text comes out 'harsh' at times.. (cuz it's text without tone & inflection.. apologies!)
I would have had a 'serious windup' had I had the coin to pre-order these..
I also am a victim of corporate operations, hence -No Coin! hah hah...
I think folks are taking all this in & really wondering what is going on, as I am, as I posted. This could be a real serious 'deal' to hit one of the major suppliers. I was only saying or really trying to have empathy for those who are dissapointed with this, & also thinking that there could be a huge (& unexpected) backlash on the issue. I really don't think anything was intentional, but an error (now a very serious one) seems to have occured!!!
Chad, no apologies required. Your replies are quite clear and quite civil. But, I know what you mean about the tone of emails. It is not the same as talking back and forth, eyeball to eyeball.
I believe that you and I are on the same page throughout this thread.
ChadLRyan Rich, I do agree, in every way, "they have cars out may not meet expectations!"On Price, Im not sure, I [usually] have the patience of an OAK Tree.. Yeah, I would love that I want that "step up 'Transition' car" really bad. but like others have said, 20-30x $ sells well.... I doubt they will 3/4 cut the price.
Rich, I do agree, in every way, "they have cars out may not meet expectations!"On Price, Im not sure, I [usually] have the patience of an OAK Tree..
Yeah, I would love that I want that "step up 'Transition' car" really bad. but like others have said, 20-30x $ sells well.... I doubt they will 3/4 cut the price.
Chad, I hear ya, but don't dismiss a deep discount if they fail to sell.
I recently bought some Walthers Wabash coaches from Walthers. Original MSRP=$45. My price=$15.
I am not saying to wait if you otherwise want the cars. But, if they fail to sell, I would not be surprised to see deep discounts to move them.
Another thing, I'm kinda a painter guy, I know that a good gloss coat will MAKE a paintjob talk! I've clear coated polised primer & have gotten incredible finishes, when modeling 1/24 cars & semi's.. (Especially in blacks & silvers!!)
This week I tried an experiment with Alclad & I can say the same! I painted a shiny gloss object, & a matt, out of the stripper tank, flat etched item. The same paint, same session, was night & day!! The gloss was reflective & brilliant, the 'etched' 'flat' was just silver... I'm kind of wondering if there was a 'skipped step' in the plating process over there....
Without the gloss 'sheen' plating is just an expensive metallic paint.. or really an applied pigment!
ChadLRyan I sure hope Walthers can remedy this... in a positive way... It's sure growing into big issue....
I sure hope Walthers can remedy this... in a positive way... It's sure growing into big issue....
I don't know how Walthers can remedy this. They have a batch of cars out there that may not be what the consumer thought they would be. If they can't sell them, they are going to have to dump them.
I have been watching this from a distance, & it is interesting.
1) I too, would have thought "I'd be getting" a plated car, whether dull or shiny, from the ads..2) I'm now even more skeptical of computer generated "car representation" graphics, & 'here now' 'order quick' ads... Without Pix!!!
I am/was never impressed by 'illustrated images' in catalogs, those hit the fire pit, mighty right quick!Show me the real picture, hey I do, -in Show Me & WPF, whenever I can, & I usually [over] explain the status of said pictures.. & if someone IM's me, I follow-up with them.
Well, at least my late Grandfather is proud of my values & honesty... (not to say there is any dishonesty, I'm just sharing 'my' convictions!) I sure hope Walthers can remedy this... in a positive way... It's sure growing into big issue....
MerrilyWeRollAlong,
Thanks so much for sharing your info regarding Walthers response. I shared your info with our brethren over on the Atlas forum and also the post below:
So, apparently, Walthers has changed vendors. Was it a cost savings measure? In any case is this going to affect future plating projects? One would think that, hopefully, Walthers will want future runs of corrugated streamliners to match the popular finishes that have been produced on the Pine and Regal series units.Walthers scored a homerun hit with the plated Pine and Regal units. On ebay, they're still fetching a premium...........so why would Walthers take a very successful process/product and drastically alter it? Was it too expensive for them? Was the profit margin too low? (doubtful as the units sold out) Did the vendor that performed the plating on the Pine and Regal units recently raise the price of the process, making it unaffordable for Walthers? Was the change, perhaps, due to the persistence of some modelers stating that plated cars look "toy-like" so Walthers is trying to capture a wider customer group? I hope there was a good reason, because if there wasn't, this could turn out to be a MAJOR blunder for Walthers. Although I tend to stay away from sodas, this reminds me of the blunder back in the 1980s when Coca Cola decided to change its formula. After a major thumbs down from its customers, Coca Cola swiftly reverted back to its successful formula.
"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"
galaxy " caveat Emptor" and Buyer beware and READ what the advertisement REALLY says!!!
" caveat Emptor" and Buyer beware and READ what the advertisement REALLY says!!!
I don't think that Walthers is interested in trying to enforce the doctrine of Caveat Emptor.
Caveat Emptor is Latin and means "let the buyer beware". Prior to statuatory law, under the doctrine of caveat emptor, the buyer could not recover from the seller for defects on the property that rendered the property unfit for ordinary purposes. The only exception was if the seller actively concealed latent defects or otherwise made material misrepresentations amounting to fraud.
The modern trend in laws protecting consumers, however, has minimized the importance of this rule. Although the buyer is still required to make a reasonable inspection of goods upon purchase, increased responsibilities have been placed upon the seller, and the doctrine of caveat venditor (Latin for "let the seller beware") has become more prevalent. Generally, there is a legal presumption that a seller makes certain warranties unless the buyer and the seller agree otherwise.
In this case, I doubt that Walthers was trying to deceive or mislead anybody. It seems to be more of a case of semantics gone wrong. My guess is that when all is said and done, Walthers may well have some very unhappy customers looking for refunds or outright refusals to purchase. If the tone of this thread is any indication, Walthers may ultimately be forced to dump excess inventory at steeply discounted prices.
so the consumer ether excepts the finish product or sends it back as unexceptible.....but most wont do it. And there banking on that fact
as for me I'm very happy with the finish on my set of Walther's cars and the price 20 -25 American each ,oh the" empire builder "
Different vendor being a different finish concerns me for the Superliners now too.
ho modern modeler Here's a response from Facebook about the different finishes, on the RPO's, something we didn't think about.... Walthers Hi David,Thank you for the question. The finish is different between the two cars because we switched vendors, and the new vendor has a different process they use for the finish. We will also be happy to pass along your feedback about the box. Hope this helped!
Here's a response from Facebook about the different finishes, on the RPO's, something we didn't think about....
So what? That's a b.s. excuse and no it wasn't helpful. If Walthers really wanted their vendor to create a certain look, then they would have demanded it. It's the same as them saying well on the first run of the PRR Broadway Limited we used one vendor, and then on the second run, we used another. And the reason why the Tuscan Red looks different on the 2nd run is because the new vendor uses a different paint or process of painting. In the end, Walthers as the buyer has the ability to demand the vendor produce their products meet a certain criteria or they could take their business else where. Most likwly these cars are made in China so it shouldn't be too hard to find some vendor there who is willing to meet the criteria within the amount Walthers wants pay for them. The excuse they gave leads me to believe Walthers didn't care about how the car finish on the car looked.
Just like PRR Tuscan Red, you can get a "real metal" or "stainless steel" look if you really wanted to. This sort of reminds me of the 2-tone gray on the 20th Century Limited...
Mine doesn't move.......it's at the station!!!
Southwest ChiefBut the thing it, this is an RPO. An already relesead body and model. So maybe these are not entierely new cars, but just in new El Capitan boxes.
galaxy They are advertised with a "metal finifh"...that does not say "plated", "metal" of anything of the sort. The description SAYS "with a Metal finish" That could mean anything from real metal applied on metal, to real metal applied on plastic, to PAINTED "metalic look" PAINT applied, to anything they consider a "metal finish". My trailer's roof has a "metal finish" on it...it is a reflective fibergalss/metalic reflective coating to protect the roof from leaking. GOod for 5 years. "Metal finish" does NOT necessarily mean it is "Metal"!!! " caveat Emptor" and Buyer beware and READ what teh advertisement REALLY says!!!
They are advertised with a "metal finifh"...that does not say "plated", "metal" of anything of the sort.
The description SAYS "with a Metal finish" That could mean anything from real metal applied on metal, to real metal applied on plastic, to PAINTED "metalic look" PAINT applied, to anything they consider a "metal finish".
My trailer's roof has a "metal finish" on it...it is a reflective fibergalss/metalic reflective coating to protect the roof from leaking. GOod for 5 years.
"Metal finish" does NOT necessarily mean it is "Metal"!!!
" caveat Emptor" and Buyer beware and READ what teh advertisement REALLY says!!!
But the on-line catalog says "w/Plated Finish" (see my earlier post). Combining that with their other references to a "metal finish" pretty much means a plated metal finish.
Or am I missing something?
Ed
I saw the RPO at my LHS and didn't see anything that looked like a "metal" finish. So I agree with what has been said here.
But the thing it, this is an RPO. An already relesead body and model. So maybe these are not entierely new cars, but just in new El Capitan boxes.
When I see the first final version of a Hi-Level and the dorm car, then I'll be interested in what the finish looks like.
Matt from Anaheim, CA and Bayfield, COClick Here for my model train photo website
mlehman I won't bother with arguing over ad copy, because as a Rio Grande modeller I don't have a dog in this fight... However, to me plated models just don't look realistic. In fact, it makes things look downright toy-like. I saw one pic -- a bad one, but good enough to compare -- comparing the finish used on a previous run of Santa Fe passenger cars and this new run from Walthers. The finish LOOKS right, which to me is what counts on a model, right?
I won't bother with arguing over ad copy, because as a Rio Grande modeller I don't have a dog in this fight...
However, to me plated models just don't look realistic. In fact, it makes things look downright toy-like. I saw one pic -- a bad one, but good enough to compare -- comparing the finish used on a previous run of Santa Fe passenger cars and this new run from Walthers. The finish LOOKS right, which to me is what counts on a model, right?
The prototype Super Chief was often sprayed with silver to keep it looking pristine, but even then grime can still be seen in numerous photos. IMHO, some light weathering on the underbodies and diaphram areas will make these plated units look even better or more prototypical.
You've likely seen this before, but below is modern example I like to use to respectfully illustrate the point:
George Hamlin photo
I'm waiting for a call back from Amy. I wonder if she's busy answering calls on this issue.