I heard the El Capitan cars from Walthers were arriving so I went into Caboose Hobbies today. Sure enough they had about 20 of them on the shelf. I saw the unit and couldn't belive my eyes. The prices are the same as the Super Chief last December, but they are not plated cars.
I went back to the Walthers catalog and they are clearly advertised with a metal finish. Did anyone order a set of these? Is the one that came with your pre-order plated? If not are you disappointed and going to complain or return it to them?
While I personally can't say that I have seen the sets for myself, the Walther website says that the that the 9- car set in question does not mention any metal plating (seem image below). The description for the INDIVIDUAL cars says they are suppose to be plated. I'm assuming you are referring to the 9-car set. It would seem silly that they wouldn't sell the set as metal plated but it doesn't say that it is suppose to.
/:550:0]
I picked up my El Cap RPO car yesterday, took it straight home and pulled out the Super Chief RPO for a side-by-side. I swear to Antonio it's (EC) not as shiny and/or unplated. By itself the finish is quality, and if the whole train is the same it will be cool, but if we all paid for a plated car I think we got duped. Walthers, you own the Forum, you have the floor.......
Mine doesn't move.......it's at the station!!!
What the heck is this all about. I picked up my RPO car yesterday at Caboose Hobbies. I didn't have a chance to inspect it, until I saw this thread.
It's painted all right, in fact it looks like the first run of the Super Chief cars, which I have. They are identical finishes.
These things are expensive, and I assumed they were plated.
On the name train product page, it says:
The HI-LEVEL Train That’s Fun for Everyone! Racing the clock between Los Angeles and Chicago, Santa Fe’s El Capitan thunders by in a flash of silver - right on time! An instant success from its 1938 debut, the popular coach streamliner was refitted in 1956 with its signature Hi-Level cars. Inspired by the new domes on many luxury trains, passengers rode eight feet higher than a standard car, and had a magnificent view through large side windows. Based on El Capitan as it ran from 1956 to 1971, Walthers ninth HO Scale name train features eight new cars, plus matching 37-Class F7s from PROTO 2000® to build an authentic consist!
First Edition Cars come with: * Certificate of Authenticity * Special Equipment History
Michael
CEO- Mile-HI-RailroadPrototype: D&RGW Moffat Line 1989
Technically Walthers never promised that the metal finish would be plated to look like the re-released Super Chief cars. In fact, Walthers only promised a Real Metal Finish while the re-released Super Chief (and the re-tooled Superliners) promised a Real Metal Finish Simulating Stainless Steel. In both cases of the Super Chief and Superliners, the descriptions/ads tout the cars would have the look of simulating stainless steel. Note the the El Capitan ad/descriptions do not mention stainless steel anywhere.
Note how the El Capitan ad say "Mix & Match w/ Super Chief Cars - Just like the Prototype!" Didn't say they would look the same.
Also note the use of the word "silver" in the first sentence of the description: "Racing the clock between Los Angeles and Chicago, Santa Fe’s El Capitan thunders by in a flash of silver - right on time!" It didn't say a flash of "shiny stainless steel."
CONSPIRACY THEORY... the first run of the Super Chief was not plated and the new El Capitan cars seem to have the same finish despite saying that have a "real metal finish." A few years after the first release, the Super Chief is re-released with a finish that simulates stainless steel after perfecting the technology. Maybe Walthers is trying to sell more products by releasing the El Capitan without a stainless steel look right now and then a few years from now they "re-release" the train again but this time with "stainless steel" plating. So a lot of people buy the El Capitan now only to purchase it again in the future because of the "new" stainless steel finish. Hmm...
I think if Walthers stated real metal finish in the description and people have gotten used to Walthers most recent offerings - newest Superliners and latter run Super Chief, I think buyers would have "assumed" these new El Capitan b-level's would be up to that standard. If they aren't produced that way, I have a feeling Walthers is going to be getting a lot of negative feedback, especially conderning the price. Higher prices people have higher expectations. I know I'd be upset if I forked over a thousand for a train set and it ididn't have the expected finish and looked like basic silver finish paint.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
The prices are actually higher for the El Cap cars, than the Super Chief cars.
Super Chief cars are $64.95
El Cap cars are $79.95
I'm going to contact Walthers tomorrow and see what they say.
Just a thought......
I wonder if Walthers' might have made an unintentional slip up.
In the past (before Walthers started offering plated cars), if I'm not mistaken, Walthers advertised their first Super Chief as having a "realistic metal finish" which appeared to be a silver paint with a very fine, brilliant pigment.
The unit being offered currently is almost identical in finish, except with a slightly higher sheen.
But common-sense "should have" dictated to Walthers marketing rep that his/her passenger train customer base has become very familiar with the plated Pine, Regal, and Super Chief units. So introducing or re-releasing models with the advertised phrase "Real Metal Finish" would likely cause modelers to expect plated finishes. I can't imagine Walthers deliberately misleading customers, considering that so many of us already pinch our hobby dollars.
Do you guys think that this could be the case here?
"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"
I entered "el capitan" in the advanced search and went to the Walthers section.
The site lists eight cars individually and says "w/Plated Finish" for each. The prices range from $70 to $80.
The deluxe set does not appear to say it is plated, but at $107 average per car, it clearly ought to be. And customers had every reason to believe they would be. If Walthers had chosen not to plate the set, they should have CLEARLY said so.
Ed
Patience is a virtue. I'll wait and pick them up for half price in the sale flyer, like all their other name trains.
Duplicate post see below.
hobo9941 Patience is a virtue. I'll wait and pick them up for half price in the sale flyer, like all their other name trains.
ho modern modeler I picked up my El Cap RPO car yesterday. By itself the finish is quality, and if the whole train is the same it will be cool, but if we all paid for a plated car I think we got duped. Walthers, you own the Forum, you have the floor.......
I picked up my El Cap RPO car yesterday.
By itself the finish is quality, and if the whole train is the same it will be cool, but if we all paid for a plated car I think we got duped. Walthers, you own the Forum, you have the floor.......
Wow, after reading through this thread, I gotta agree with the above statement. Walthers clearly owes an explanation to its customer base.
As a proud owner of a consist of older, silver colored, plastic Athearn streamlined Santa Fe passenger cars that I originally bought for less than ten bucks apiece a few years back, I truly feel for you guys spending up to $80 or more per car or more and then getting duped, or misled, or whatever.
This really is a confusing situation. As I read through the thread, I counted nine different terms to describe the finish on these Walthers cars: plated, metal finish, metal plated, real metal finish, real metal finish simulating stainless steel, flash of silver, stainless steel finish, realistic metal finish and plated finish.
I cannot even sort this all out. It is totally confusing trying to grasp the finish on the older cars, the newer cars, the Super Chiefs, the El Capitans, the first runs, the second runs.
Are all of these cars plastic? Or, are some actually metal?
Rich
Alton Junction
Guys,
This may be "hearsay" but according to info on another forum.........the cars are actually plated but exhibit a finish that "supposedly" is designed to help match the "painted" units more closely.
IMHO, the best thing to do is to get the info from the horses mouth and either email or telephone Walthers.
AntonioFP45 Guys, This may be "hearsay" but according to info on another forum.........the cars are actually plated but exhibit a finish that "supposedly" is designed to help match the "painted" units more closely. IMHO, the best thing to do is to get the info from the horses mouth and either email or telephone Walthers.
Well, this sure muddies the water even further.
Amy, Walthers Customer Service Representative, can undoubtedly shed some light on this growing mystery.
What are purchasers of these cars looking for or expecting? Plated cars with unique finishes? Plated cars that match the prior painted cars?
Rich has a good point. I mean, they do match my first run Super Chief cars. And I could run them interchangeably like the prototype did.
But, to be honest, I wanted the look of the new plated Super Chief cars.
After I call them sometime today, I'll report back here what I find out.
Motley Rich has a good point. I mean, they do match my first run Super Chief cars. And I could run them interchangeably like the prototype did. But, to be honest, I wanted the look of the new plated Super Chief cars. After I call them sometime today, I'll report back here what I find out.
Michael,
If you call, ask for Amy. She pretty much has her finger on the pulse of what is going on at Walthers at all times.
Texas Zepher I heard the El Capitan cars from Walthers were arriving so I went into Caboose Hobbies today. Sure enough they had about 20 of them on the shelf. I saw the unit and couldn't belive my eyes. The prices are the same as the Super Chief last December, but they are not plated cars. I went back to the Walthers catalog and they are clearly advertised with a metal finish.
I went back to the Walthers catalog and they are clearly advertised with a metal finish.
They are advertised with a "metal finifh"...that does not say "plated", "metal" of anything of the sort.
The description SAYS "with a Metal finish" That could mean anything from real metal applied on metal, to real metal applied on plastic, to PAINTED "metalic look" PAINT applied, to anything they consider a "metal finish".
My trailer's roof has a "metal finish" on it...it is a reflective fibergalss/metalic reflective coating to protect the roof from leaking. GOod for 5 years.
"Metal finish" does NOT necessarily mean it is "Metal"!!!
" caveat Emptor" and Buyer beware and READ what teh advertisement REALLY says!!!
-G .
Just my thoughts, ideas, opinions and experiences. Others may vary.
HO and N Scale.
After long and careful thought, they have convinced me. I have come to the conclusion that they are right. The aliens did it.
I won't bother with arguing over ad copy, because as a Rio Grande modeller I don't have a dog in this fight...
However, to me plated models just don't look realistic. In fact, it makes things look downright toy-like. I saw one pic -- a bad one, but good enough to compare -- comparing the finish used on a previous run of Santa Fe passenger cars and this new run from Walthers. The finish LOOKS right, which to me is what counts on a model, right?
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
galaxy " caveat Emptor" and Buyer beware and READ what teh advertisement REALLY says!!!
I checked the monthly sails flyers, I checked the Walther's catalog, I checked the poster in the hobby shop, and I checked the on-line catalog. In combination all of these use one or multiple of the phrases "real metal finish" (like the Super Chief set last December), the actual words "Santa Fe El Capitan Streamlined Car Ready to Run w/Plated Finish", or 'real metal "stainless steel" finish'.
http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/932-9730
Any person who has purchased Walthers plated cars before (which I have both the Super Chief and Amtrak cars that used these same phrases) would have reasonably expected these to match.
I have called Walther's today. The Customer Service department call up the catalog entry and agreed that it seems from the avertisement the cars should not be painted but plated. She then sent me to the parts and warranty department where I had to leave a message. I will post what they say.
I'm afraid I might have to cancel my entire order. Drat drat & double drat. I already sold my Hallmark Brass set in anticipation of these coming in.
I'm waiting for a call back from Amy. I wonder if she's busy answering calls on this issue.
mlehman I won't bother with arguing over ad copy, because as a Rio Grande modeller I don't have a dog in this fight... However, to me plated models just don't look realistic. In fact, it makes things look downright toy-like. I saw one pic -- a bad one, but good enough to compare -- comparing the finish used on a previous run of Santa Fe passenger cars and this new run from Walthers. The finish LOOKS right, which to me is what counts on a model, right?
http://www.rcgrabbag.com/archives/walthers-super-chief
If you're only judging by a photo then it's definitely an unfair comparative gauge. Metalized reflective finishes will starkly contrast under varying lighting conditions much more so than solid colors.
Have you looked at a plated unit up close and personal? Not criticizing you, but I've been a modeler since the late 1970s and having ridden trains with Budd cars in the consist, my attitude regarding plating is more of "It's about stinkin time!"
Now, grant it, my primary criticism of modelers that purchase plated units is that generally, THEY WON'T WEATHER THEM! That does drive me a bit nuts sometimes. I've looked at photos of the prototype Super Chief, El Capitan, Burlington's "Zephyrs", Seaboard's Silver Meteor, and even at their cleanest they still exhibited some dust and grime, especially around the diaphrams and underbody.
The prototype Super Chief was often sprayed with silver to keep it looking pristine, but even then grime can still be seen in numerous photos. IMHO, some light weathering on the underbodies and diaphram areas will make these plated units look even better or more prototypical.
Maybe it's my age, but to me and some of the modelers I know the traditional "whitish" silver finish on HO and N scale corrugated passenger cars made them look more toylike.
You've likely seen this before, but below is modern example I like to use to respectfully illustrate the point:
George Hamlin photo
I saw the RPO at my LHS and didn't see anything that looked like a "metal" finish. So I agree with what has been said here.
But the thing it, this is an RPO. An already relesead body and model. So maybe these are not entierely new cars, but just in new El Capitan boxes.
When I see the first final version of a Hi-Level and the dorm car, then I'll be interested in what the finish looks like.
Matt from Anaheim, CA and Bayfield, COClick Here for my model train photo website
galaxy They are advertised with a "metal finifh"...that does not say "plated", "metal" of anything of the sort. The description SAYS "with a Metal finish" That could mean anything from real metal applied on metal, to real metal applied on plastic, to PAINTED "metalic look" PAINT applied, to anything they consider a "metal finish". My trailer's roof has a "metal finish" on it...it is a reflective fibergalss/metalic reflective coating to protect the roof from leaking. GOod for 5 years. "Metal finish" does NOT necessarily mean it is "Metal"!!! " caveat Emptor" and Buyer beware and READ what teh advertisement REALLY says!!!
But the on-line catalog says "w/Plated Finish" (see my earlier post). Combining that with their other references to a "metal finish" pretty much means a plated metal finish.
Or am I missing something?
Southwest ChiefBut the thing it, this is an RPO. An already relesead body and model. So maybe these are not entierely new cars, but just in new El Capitan boxes.
Here's a response from Facebook about the different finishes, on the RPO's, something we didn't think about....
ho modern modeler Here's a response from Facebook about the different finishes, on the RPO's, something we didn't think about.... Walthers Hi David,Thank you for the question. The finish is different between the two cars because we switched vendors, and the new vendor has a different process they use for the finish. We will also be happy to pass along your feedback about the box. Hope this helped!
So what? That's a b.s. excuse and no it wasn't helpful. If Walthers really wanted their vendor to create a certain look, then they would have demanded it. It's the same as them saying well on the first run of the PRR Broadway Limited we used one vendor, and then on the second run, we used another. And the reason why the Tuscan Red looks different on the 2nd run is because the new vendor uses a different paint or process of painting. In the end, Walthers as the buyer has the ability to demand the vendor produce their products meet a certain criteria or they could take their business else where. Most likwly these cars are made in China so it shouldn't be too hard to find some vendor there who is willing to meet the criteria within the amount Walthers wants pay for them. The excuse they gave leads me to believe Walthers didn't care about how the car finish on the car looked.
Just like PRR Tuscan Red, you can get a "real metal" or "stainless steel" look if you really wanted to. This sort of reminds me of the 2-tone gray on the 20th Century Limited...
Different vendor being a different finish concerns me for the Superliners now too.
theres only one reason to change vendors if the quality is there, somebody says they can do it cheaper . and they should submit a product sample that is approved by someone at Walther's .
so the consumer ether excepts the finish product or sends it back as unexceptible.....but most wont do it. And there banking on that fact
as for me I'm very happy with the finish on my set of Walther's cars and the price 20 -25 American each ,oh the" empire builder "