galaxy " caveat Emptor" and Buyer beware and READ what the advertisement REALLY says!!!
" caveat Emptor" and Buyer beware and READ what the advertisement REALLY says!!!
I don't think that Walthers is interested in trying to enforce the doctrine of Caveat Emptor.
Caveat Emptor is Latin and means "let the buyer beware". Prior to statuatory law, under the doctrine of caveat emptor, the buyer could not recover from the seller for defects on the property that rendered the property unfit for ordinary purposes. The only exception was if the seller actively concealed latent defects or otherwise made material misrepresentations amounting to fraud.
The modern trend in laws protecting consumers, however, has minimized the importance of this rule. Although the buyer is still required to make a reasonable inspection of goods upon purchase, increased responsibilities have been placed upon the seller, and the doctrine of caveat venditor (Latin for "let the seller beware") has become more prevalent. Generally, there is a legal presumption that a seller makes certain warranties unless the buyer and the seller agree otherwise.
In this case, I doubt that Walthers was trying to deceive or mislead anybody. It seems to be more of a case of semantics gone wrong. My guess is that when all is said and done, Walthers may well have some very unhappy customers looking for refunds or outright refusals to purchase. If the tone of this thread is any indication, Walthers may ultimately be forced to dump excess inventory at steeply discounted prices.
Rich
Alton Junction
MerrilyWeRollAlong,
Thanks so much for sharing your info regarding Walthers response. I shared your info with our brethren over on the Atlas forum and also the post below:
So, apparently, Walthers has changed vendors. Was it a cost savings measure? In any case is this going to affect future plating projects? One would think that, hopefully, Walthers will want future runs of corrugated streamliners to match the popular finishes that have been produced on the Pine and Regal series units.Walthers scored a homerun hit with the plated Pine and Regal units. On ebay, they're still fetching a premium...........so why would Walthers take a very successful process/product and drastically alter it? Was it too expensive for them? Was the profit margin too low? (doubtful as the units sold out) Did the vendor that performed the plating on the Pine and Regal units recently raise the price of the process, making it unaffordable for Walthers? Was the change, perhaps, due to the persistence of some modelers stating that plated cars look "toy-like" so Walthers is trying to capture a wider customer group? I hope there was a good reason, because if there wasn't, this could turn out to be a MAJOR blunder for Walthers. Although I tend to stay away from sodas, this reminds me of the blunder back in the 1980s when Coca Cola decided to change its formula. After a major thumbs down from its customers, Coca Cola swiftly reverted back to its successful formula.
"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"
I have been watching this from a distance, & it is interesting.
1) I too, would have thought "I'd be getting" a plated car, whether dull or shiny, from the ads..2) I'm now even more skeptical of computer generated "car representation" graphics, & 'here now' 'order quick' ads... Without Pix!!!
I am/was never impressed by 'illustrated images' in catalogs, those hit the fire pit, mighty right quick!Show me the real picture, hey I do, -in Show Me & WPF, whenever I can, & I usually [over] explain the status of said pictures.. & if someone IM's me, I follow-up with them.
Well, at least my late Grandfather is proud of my values & honesty... (not to say there is any dishonesty, I'm just sharing 'my' convictions!) I sure hope Walthers can remedy this... in a positive way... It's sure growing into big issue....
ChadLRyan I sure hope Walthers can remedy this... in a positive way... It's sure growing into big issue....
I sure hope Walthers can remedy this... in a positive way... It's sure growing into big issue....
I don't know how Walthers can remedy this. They have a batch of cars out there that may not be what the consumer thought they would be. If they can't sell them, they are going to have to dump them.
Rich, I do agree, in every way, "they have cars out may not meet expectations!"On Price, Im not sure, I [usually] have the patience of an OAK Tree..
Yeah, I would love that I want that "step up 'Transition' car" really bad. but like others have said, 20-30x $ sells well.... I doubt they will 3/4 cut the price.
Another thing, I'm kinda a painter guy, I know that a good gloss coat will MAKE a paintjob talk! I've clear coated polised primer & have gotten incredible finishes, when modeling 1/24 cars & semi's.. (Especially in blacks & silvers!!)
This week I tried an experiment with Alclad & I can say the same! I painted a shiny gloss object, & a matt, out of the stripper tank, flat etched item. The same paint, same session, was night & day!! The gloss was reflective & brilliant, the 'etched' 'flat' was just silver... I'm kind of wondering if there was a 'skipped step' in the plating process over there....
Without the gloss 'sheen' plating is just an expensive metallic paint.. or really an applied pigment!
ChadLRyan Rich, I do agree, in every way, "they have cars out may not meet expectations!"On Price, Im not sure, I [usually] have the patience of an OAK Tree.. Yeah, I would love that I want that "step up 'Transition' car" really bad. but like others have said, 20-30x $ sells well.... I doubt they will 3/4 cut the price.
Chad, I hear ya, but don't dismiss a deep discount if they fail to sell.
I recently bought some Walthers Wabash coaches from Walthers. Original MSRP=$45. My price=$15.
I am not saying to wait if you otherwise want the cars. But, if they fail to sell, I would not be surprised to see deep discounts to move them.
Na, I am totally with you man, some of my text comes out 'harsh' at times.. (cuz it's text without tone & inflection.. apologies!)
I would have had a 'serious windup' had I had the coin to pre-order these..
I also am a victim of corporate operations, hence -No Coin! hah hah...
I think folks are taking all this in & really wondering what is going on, as I am, as I posted. This could be a real serious 'deal' to hit one of the major suppliers. I was only saying or really trying to have empathy for those who are dissapointed with this, & also thinking that there could be a huge (& unexpected) backlash on the issue. I really don't think anything was intentional, but an error (now a very serious one) seems to have occured!!!
ChadLRyan Na, I am totally with you man, some of my text comes out 'harsh' at times.. (cuz it's text without tone & inflection.. apologies!) I would have had a 'serious windup' had I had the coin to pre-order these.. I also am a victim of corporate operations, hence -No Coin! hah hah... I think folks are taking all this in & really wondering what is going on, as I am, as I posted. This could be a real serious 'deal' to hit one of the major suppliers. I was only saying or really trying to have empathy for those who are dissapointed with this, & also thinking that there could be a huge (& unexpected) backlash on the issue. I really don't think anything was intentional, but an error (now a very serious one) seems to have occured!!!
Chad, no apologies required. Your replies are quite clear and quite civil. But, I know what you mean about the tone of emails. It is not the same as talking back and forth, eyeball to eyeball.
I believe that you and I are on the same page throughout this thread.
Rich, danke schoen!!!!
I really hope this gets worked out, to everyones satisfaction.
ChadLRyan Rich, danke schoen!!!! I really hope this gets worked out, to everyones satisfaction.
I still want to hear what Amy has to say at Walthers.
BIG JERR theres only one reason to change vendors if the quality is there, somebody says they can do it cheaper . and they should submit a product sample that is approved by someone at Walther's .
theres only one reason to change vendors if the quality is there, somebody says they can do it cheaper . and they should submit a product sample that is approved by someone at Walther's .
No,
The situation in China is more complex than that.
There are more customers than factories to produce the goods and a factory can decline to produce a follow -on product depending upon their workload. Walthers may not have been able to get a suitable production slot at any price with the factory that made the plated "Super Chief" cars, for example.
Because of this, prices are rising, but this is exacerbated by the fall of the US dollar relative to other currencies. But long lead times are affecting companies in other countries as they wait for production slots to become available.
M636C
Maybe already said in post, but just another example of why pre-ordering is a good deal only for the seller.
Richard
Walthers received a lot of positive feedback with our release of the plated Santa Fe Super Chief in 2010. We also received some constructive criticism that cited the cars' finish as too shiny and bright. Walthers decided to refine the plating to be more realistic, especially as light plays off the surface. Our design team sought out a new vendor to apply the real metal finish. Through a rigorous sampling process Walthers found a plated metal finish that we feel is more accurate to the prototype's appearance as it would be seen in service, and it is incorporated on Walthers new HO scale Santa Fe El Capitan cars.
Real stainless steel cars had a wide variety of shine, so go ahead and combine your Super Chief and El Cap consists, just as the Santa Fe did in the 60's.
Your Friends at Walthers
Very interesting.
Maybe you could have commicated that in your advertising Walthers.
"new/refined realistic metal finish" or something like that.
Michael
CEO- Mile-HI-RailroadPrototype: D&RGW Moffat Line 1989
Uh, I don't collect train car boxes, I collect train cars to operate. Boxes are relegated to a storage area for future use so I can't get excited because the boxes are low class and cheepo. So are a lot of other things today.
Also I think the explanation about the car finishes is probably very valid. Since I don't model Santa Fe passenger operations, I don't have any of the cars, but I am still a "fussy" Santa Fe modeler otherwise, and I just don't get my tizzie in a twirl about small stuff.
Bob
Antonio,
To me, it's still the look that matters to me, not the way to get it. Interestingly, I was going to post this anyway and just read through the thread catching up and just read that's pretty much Walthers' reason, too.
I actually have a string of BLI CZ cars. To me, they got things just about right. I think they're plated? I was actually leery of it before they arrived, because of my worry that it would look "plated." Somehow, BLI got this just right and there was no need to worry. But I've seen others and plating is still something that doesn't always work for me. The BLI Zephyr is the exception that proves the rule in my opinion.
Your last pic below illustrates what the difference is. Getting that sort of light in the layout room is tough under any circumstances. The observer rarely stands that close to the model. And my impression of the way plating appears to me is that it just doesn't work as well with the 3 foot rule or under most layout lighting conditions. The glare and reflection just don't scale. You get something, um, different most of the time.
I swear Walthers didn't ask me to say this, but I think they've summed it up pretty well in corp-speak. They're not pulling any bait-and-switch and I'm sure are mortified if people think it's just a matter of cutting costs. Not doubt, the switch cost them money up front, unless they just pulled it out of their hat, because they put effort into looking into the matter and then doing something about complaints form those raising these concerns over the previous run.
Also note that Walthers said the change was precipitated by, well, pretty much what I just said, but said by customers who objected to this aspect of the finish (too much of the plated look, etc) on the earlier run. Guess Walthers can't win, looks like someone's going to be unhappy. Time -- and sales -- will ultimately tell which preference in finishes the market prefers.
Anyway, I don't want to be negative about YOUR preferences. You're disappointed, but I just wanted to point out that some may not see this as a flaw, instead seeing it as a feature.
Mike
AntonioFP45 You've got my curiosity. Specifically, how do the plated models produced by Walthers, and let's throw in BLI, look downright toy like? http://www.rcgrabbag.com/archives/walthers-super-chief If you're only judging by a photo then it's definitely an unfair comparative gauge. Metalized reflective finishes will starkly contrast under varying lighting conditions much more so than solid colors. Have you looked at a plated unit up close and personal? Not criticizing you, but I've been a modeler since the late 1970s and having ridden trains with Budd cars in the consist, my attitude regarding plating is more of "It's about stinkin time!" Now, grant it, my primary criticism of modelers that purchase plated units is that generally, THEY WON'T WEATHER THEM! That does drive me a bit nuts sometimes. I've looked at photos of the prototype Super Chief, El Capitan, Burlington's "Zephyrs", Seaboard's Silver Meteor, and even at their cleanest they still exhibited some dust and grime, especially around the diaphrams and underbody. SNIP Maybe it's my age, but to me and some of the modelers I know the traditional "whitish" silver finish on HO and N scale corrugated passenger cars made them look more toylike. You've likely seen this before, but below is modern example I like to use to respectfully illustrate the point:SNIP
You've got my curiosity. Specifically, how do the plated models produced by Walthers, and let's throw in BLI, look downright toy like?
http://www.rcgrabbag.com/archives/walthers-super-chief
If you're only judging by a photo then it's definitely an unfair comparative gauge. Metalized reflective finishes will starkly contrast under varying lighting conditions much more so than solid colors.
Have you looked at a plated unit up close and personal? Not criticizing you, but I've been a modeler since the late 1970s and having ridden trains with Budd cars in the consist, my attitude regarding plating is more of "It's about stinkin time!"
Now, grant it, my primary criticism of modelers that purchase plated units is that generally, THEY WON'T WEATHER THEM! That does drive me a bit nuts sometimes. I've looked at photos of the prototype Super Chief, El Capitan, Burlington's "Zephyrs", Seaboard's Silver Meteor, and even at their cleanest they still exhibited some dust and grime, especially around the diaphrams and underbody.
SNIP
Maybe it's my age, but to me and some of the modelers I know the traditional "whitish" silver finish on HO and N scale corrugated passenger cars made them look more toylike.
You've likely seen this before, but below is modern example I like to use to respectfully illustrate the point:SNIP
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
mlehman Time -- and sales -- will ultimately tell which preference in finishes the market prefers.
Time -- and sales -- will ultimately tell which preference in finishes the market prefers.
I think that sums it up about as well as anyone can put it.
Texas Zepher I have called Walther's today. The Customer Service department call up the catalog entry and agreed that it seems from the avertisement the cars should not be painted but plated. She then sent me to the parts and warranty department where I had to leave a message. I will post what they say. I'm afraid I might have to cancel my entire order. Drat drat & double drat. I already sold my Hallmark Brass set in anticipation of these coming in.
I have called Walther's today. The Customer Service department call up the catalog entry and agreed that it seems from the avertisement the cars should not be painted but plated. She then sent me to the parts and warranty department where I had to leave a message. I will post what they say.
I'm afraid I might have to cancel my entire order. Drat drat & double drat. I already sold my Hallmark Brass set in anticipation of these coming in.
I have retained my 11 car brass set because of several issues.
CZ
Hopefully Walthers will resolve this issue and get the metal finish plating right for next year's passenger train: The Southern Crescent
I still don't know how they claim. To still have a metal finish, but just not as shiny. I think that's BS.
Here is a side-by-side photo of my OLD first release Super Chief RPO, and the NEW El Cap RPO.
Can you tell me which one is which?
I must be the only guy in the world who isn't interested in the SantaFe in the least...
Dont know why, they have cool equipment, flashy color schemes, a great history, and was generally a well run road.
But the Frisco, on the other hand, is an interesting road... Always in bankruptcy, etc, but gut the job done again and again....
Van Hobbies H1b, K1a, T1c, D10g, F1a, F2a, G5a. Division Point: H24-66 Hammerhead, Alco covered wagons A-B-B-A, C-Liner A-B-B-A, EMD FP7A A-B-B.
H1b modified to replicate modern day 2816. All with Tsunamis.
the one on the right doesn't have the grabs installed & has one less window other than that their the same ,Oh boy what do I win!!
Walthers Walthers received a lot of positive feedback with our release of the plated Santa Fe Super Chief in 2010. We also received some constructive criticism that cited the cars' finish as too shiny and bright. Walthers decided to refine the plating to be more realistic, especially as light plays off the surface. Our design team sought out a new vendor to apply the real metal finish. Through a rigorous sampling process Walthers found a plated metal finish that we feel is more accurate to the prototype's appearance as it would be seen in service, and it is incorporated on Walthers new HO scale Santa Fe El Capitan cars. Your Friends at Walthers
And you chose to share this wonderful news with your customers AFTER some of them had a hissy-fit? Wouldn't it have made more sense to alert us all of this wonderful improvement back when you made the decision? Why not, uh, share? It is, as you say, "more accurate"; and it would have been a service to us all to have revealed this in a more timely manner.
Myself, I'm very happy with the apparently unacceptable shine on my Superliners.
Ed
Mike,
I wasn't snipping at you. But since I've been working intensely with Alclad and sharing the info with modelers I always want to read/hear what modelers think of stainless steel appearances on models and use the input.
No, actually I'm not disappointed at all. How can I be if I haven't seen the new units yet.
I chime in only as an observer as I'm interested in seeing more passenger cars introduced on the market with a "stainless steel" appearance. I emailed Walthers a couple of years ago regarding plated finishes and included brief info on the importance of tone-values. I have no idea if my input was used or not. Remember, on my Alclad threads, I often point out that streamlined units varied in appearance. However, as some modelers pointed out on other threads.......when a stainless steel train was new, the cars from the same manufacturer generally had a very similar finish.
Re: BLI. Beautiful job on the Cal-Zephyr cars. My respectful criticism is that the slight yellowish tint on the cars leans a bit too warm when the tone should, imho, should have been a little cooler (grayer). But a view that was circulated was that a number of prototype photos of the "Cal Zeph" were shot in desert terrain. So naturally, the Budd units' surfaces were reflecting their "yellowish-brown" surroundings.
In the case of El Capitan, I was being supportive of the modelers that were expecting the plated finishes from previous releases for purposes of matching. I'm not slamming Walthers as they face the same problems that the other manufacturers face: Due to the cost, they're forced to metalize or "plate" production runs of SS cars with the same finish and don't have the flexibility of varying finishes within a run.
I've had a Pine unit in my hands before and commented that the job was well done. I still feel that the reflectivity and the medium-dark tone were realistic andthat the primary reason that some prototype modelers may have found them too shiny (although the prototypes were when new) was because THEY WOULD NOT WEATHER THEM! I've pointed out over and over that even the prototype Super Chief (although washed repeatedly) often had light coatings of brown dust on and around the diaphrams and the underbodies as did the El Capitan.
IMHO, if at least ONE of these modelers had taken a PIne or Regal unit, lightly airbrushed a thin wash of Polly Scale dirt and grime on the underbody and ends and posted it on various forums or even on MRR magazine........the skeptical modelers might have had a changed opinion. The sheen could easily be toned down more by a single coat of semi-gloss clear to age it slightly.
As for glare and reflection.....I've been researching and have concluded that with regards to metalizing/plating the plating should be matched to the prototype and instead modelers should change/adjust the lighting. Reflective surfaces tend to scale themselves, especially under daylight corrected lights. This is an aspect of the hobby that should be explored and discussed in greater depth. A significant number of modelers today have layouts that they've invested thousands of dollars in and yet,.................old fashioned 1970s technology shop florescent bulbs or incandescent 60-75 watt bulbs hang glaringly on the ceiling!
Unlike a decade ago, lighting options in varying color temperatures for the typical bedroom or basement have expanded greatly and prices are affordable now.
High Greens
Motley I still don't know how they claim. To still have a metal finish, but just not as shiny. I think that's BS. Here is a side-by-side photo of my OLD first release Super Chief RPO, and the NEW El Cap RPO. Can you tell me which one is which?
Super Chief-left, El Capitan-right, and that's me waving in the window in the yellow house.
Mine doesn't move.......it's at the station!!!
ho modern modeler Motley: I still don't know how they claim. To still have a metal finish, but just not as shiny. I think that's BS. Here is a side-by-side photo of my OLD first release Super Chief RPO, and the NEW El Cap RPO. Can you tell me which one is which? Super Chief-left, El Capitan-right, and that's me waving in the window in the yellow house.
Motley: I still don't know how they claim. To still have a metal finish, but just not as shiny. I think that's BS. Here is a side-by-side photo of my OLD first release Super Chief RPO, and the NEW El Cap RPO. Can you tell me which one is which?
The fact that you can't tell the difference between the silver painted car and the "metal plated" car means the "metal plating" finish is way too subtle to be of any practical use in HO visually. Basically it fails to achieve the effect. I don't know but in small scale, sometimes things don't look as they should. Is this a case of holding a model up to the real thing and saying they look alike? But then the model doesn't look right as a representation of the full scale car shrunk down to HO. This reminds me of how HO diesels were painted t o match a paint chip of the real thing, but it always looked way to dark. Well, maybe that paint looks dark because its not out in bright sunlight and we don't run our HO models in bright sunlight, we run them in basments or rooms with fluorescent lights or some other artificial light.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
riogrande5761 This reminds me of how HO diesels were painted t o match a paint chip of the real thing, but it always looked way to dark. Well, maybe that paint looks dark because its not out in bright sunlight and we don't run our HO models in bright sunlight, we run them in basments or rooms with fluorescent lights or some other artificial light.
This reminds me of how HO diesels were painted t o match a paint chip of the real thing, but it always looked way to dark. Well, maybe that paint looks dark because its not out in bright sunlight and we don't run our HO models in bright sunlight, we run them in basments or rooms with fluorescent lights or some other artificial light.
For stainless steal,. it's not just sunlight verse fluorescent lights that makes the difference, it's the surroundings make a huge difference. Polished stainless steel is really a duller mirror that reflects everything like just like a mirror. If you stand next to a stainless steel passenger car, you will see your reflection in, although it's usually fuzzy. Because the prototype is generally seen and pictured in the open, where it takes a shade of whatever color the sky is (light blue, grey, etc.). If you're inside a dark station, let's say Chicago Union Station, where there is poor light and the walls/column and ceilings are all painted a dark color, then the stainless steel will seem darker and the reflectiveness lessens due to less light shining off of it.
Besides unnatural lighting on our model railroad layouts, another issue with modeling stainless steel is how we look at the cars. Just about all of us look downwards on our layouts so the colors that the car's metal finish reflects ends up being whatever the surrounding ground are colors. Also, we can see our model train's roofs which are facing upwards but instead of reflecting the blue sky, it's reflecting your ceiling (which probably isn't a sky blue). Most of our real-life memories, mental images and even photo/videos of stainless steel passenger cars are from a perspective of looking upwards at the cars where the reflection is would be what is skyward. In short, even if you can get natural lighting on to your layout, the angle you normally look at the model will never give the look you see on the prototype.
I thought this might be a useful comparison photo.
Here is an Intermountain silver painted Hi-Level dorm next to a Walthers plated Superliner:
So this contrast could be close to what to expect when Walthers eventually issues an Amtrak Pacific Parlor car, if the current subtle plating is still used when compared to the previously issued mirror like Superliner plating.
The Walthers plated Superliners reflect their surroundings nicely. Note how in my photo the Superliner has taken on a brownish sheen by reflecting the brown of the table top and wood wall background. Put it in a different background color environment and it reflects that.
I'm worried the new finish being applied to the "El Cap" cars is not be as reflective as it could be. And the overall "metal" effect is simply lost in the small scale of HO.
Matt from Anaheim, CA and Bayfield, COClick Here for my model train photo website
Not really trying to bash the AT&SF. I appreciate their history and all, and in TX I'm surrounDed by fans in the club.
I actually own a couple locos as well, and lots of their rolling stock.
I just wonder about the road, and what makes it so popular. Literally everywhere...
One of the few roads who continued to take passenger trains seriously right up to the bitter end.
I just don't get the all encompassing craziness over the road.
I'm sure by the end of the decade, Walthers and otheRs will have modeled every single SF train there ever was.
A Katy/Frisco Texas Special would be nice, or something other than from ATSF, UP, Pennsy, NYC, etc..
Just for a change and all
But I probably will end up with a few El Cap cars just the same...
Nope. BIG JER had it correct. He cheated by looking at the grab irons.
El Cap on the left
Super Chief on the right.