Well, maybe not quite that radical, but I have been bothered for some time now about the damage I have after being on organized tours. I first started showing in the early 1980's for NMRA functions. I always enjoyed meeting fellow modelers from other places, exchanging info, etc. I also enjoyed having operating sessions made up of people other than the regular group.
That has ended now. The last few years, as I have been open for NMRA region and local tours, I have seen a large increase in equipment vanishing after a tour, damage to the railroad from people who should know better and such. So I decided that I will no longer show for any function. The only visitors will be those I invite and trust. I never thought I would feel that way, but in the last couple of years I have had diesels stolen, cars badly damaged, scenery and structures destroyed and also the need to almost fumigate the railroad room because some do not observe good hygeine practices.
This may sound judgmental, well it is. I spend a lot of time on the layout, I have spent a lot of money on the layout, I have spent a lot of personal time and effort on the layout, and I don't do that just so I can open the layout to groups who have those with the manners of a wild pig loose. I don't know how many others feel the same, in fact, I don't even care. If you choose to expose your layout to that sort of action, then have at it. But there will be no more NMRA tours in this basement, and no one invited to take part unless I know them and trust them.
This is a hobby for enjoyment and relaxation, not a hobby to see how much I can spend on repairs of damage caused by people with no respect or manners. I wonder how many others have taken the same course of action. I do know of a few. Too bad, as I have always enjoyed having tours, but no more.
Bob
Bob,
I can fully understand your point. It is sad that you see yourself forced into a position of closing your layout to the "public", just because a few misbehaving folks can´t keep their cotton-pickin´ fingers to themselves.
Years ago (decades?), there was a cartoon in MR, showing Frankenstein guarding a layout. The by-line was "I keep him for visitors who can´t keep their fingers off my layout".
I haven't even glued down my first section of track and I know exactly how you feel. I don't intend to make my layout public at any point, and in fact the design itself shows that. (No fat people in my aisles, please!)
It's a fundamental disrespect some people have for people they don't know and their property - People are most definitely welcome to visit my layout, but as a new friend, not as a group. This doesn't rule out operating sessions between a group of people I know and trust (even though I haven't found the young modeler clique in Calgary yet) but large groups of people you don't know are notoriously bad for whatever it is you're showing them, regardless of what it is. That's why museums have all the little plexiglass cases.
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Building the CPR Kootenay division in N scale, blog here: http://kootenaymodelrailway.wordpress.com/
Good for you for having the guts to post that message.
I am sure that 9 out of every 10 people who visit a layout on an organized tour are well meaning folks, but not being able to identify and ban that tenth character is enough to keep most of us from ever opening up our house and our layout to strangers.
I hurt on your behalf. Sorry for your losses and damage.
Rich
Alton Junction
I organize tours for my Division and I always worry. At our division meetings we have member sit by the model contest with a big stick to keep hands off. I was amazed at how busy he was. Things have improved latley, he is getting his message across. We have had a few bad experiences on the tours, but we continue to try to do tours for members only. I don't know what has been our biggest problem, but it is probably a tie between bad manners and arrogant members. Neither seem to apply the rules they have at their houses to themselves at other layouts.
I am on schedule for this fall and we will see how much damage occurs. We have not had a lot of theft yet.
Someone needs to set them up, sensor tags and the eqipment to operate them are cheap now, put that brass engine within grab range but expect some layout damage as somebody gets manhandled waiting for the police!
WEll, it is unfortunate that this happens.
I understand your feelings fully and I have never shown off my meager little layout to anyone who wasn't a close friend already.
You are not the first to post such a dreadful feeling and change of heart about showing off a layout on a tour.
Unless you put up lexan walls and have the space for an aisle 3 feet from that lexan wall protecting your layout, then you can't guarantee no one will "meddle where they oughten be meddlin'".
Theft, damage are not the only things people who shut off thier layouts to public viewing have complained of.
Others have complained also about access to their layouts with people traipsing throuhg their house, getting nosey on what's in the fridge, for example, and kids who "gotta go potty" and leave the bathroom a mess. Even Adults who "gotta go potty" and nose around while in the house. One never knows who mighta stole the TV and computer after such a showing where people have to go through the house to get the train room.
The sadest part is, as you said, this is from people who "SHOULD know better". It IS unfortunate that one or two bad apples can spoil the whole bunch.
-G .
Just my thoughts, ideas, opinions and experiences. Others may vary.
HO and N Scale.
After long and careful thought, they have convinced me. I have come to the conclusion that they are right. The aliens did it.
Bob, you're not withdrawing from the human race, but it sounds like you're just protecting your layout from the Animal Kingdom.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Next time have a gun at the next show.
Russell
Wow, that is scary sad. I think its the first time I've heard of such problems. I've been on a few national event layout tours and was glad I didn't hear of any such things happening at the time.
Quite some years ago a late friend who had a part time hobby shop in his basement alongside his layout had a brass 44 tonner stolen. I know I was flabbegasted to hear of it, especially since most of the area modelers all know each other. He had a suspicion who it was but couldn't prove it. Scumbags in all hobbies I guess.
Bob Boudreau
CANADA
Visit my model railroad photography website: http://sites.google.com/site/railphotog/
I might add to my comments about my decision at the beginning of this post. I was in seminary in the late 50's, living in a student apartment with my bride in Enid Ok. She agreed to my having a sheet of plywood with an HO layout that slid under the bed. When I graduated and we left Oklahoma for our first church near Topeka KS, the layout was stripped except for track, strapped to the roof of the car and off we went to Kansas. That layout survived a lot.
The church that called me couldn't afford us, so I ended up taking a job with the Santa Fe in Topeka GOB where I ended up being on the ground floor of the IBM era, while continuing to serve the church. That layout survived a few years in Topeka before I really got started in serious modeling. So I have really been in the hobby almost since birth. Dad was a Santa Fe engineer, fill in the blanks. Modelers then were really nice guys, a few a little strange, but aren't we all.
Unfortunately the change in our society has expanded to our hobbies and outside activities. I really regret my decision because I love showing off the layout. But that 4 by 8 has grown into a large 3 deck layout over the years after moving to Kansas City, and I have too much invested financially and emotionally to allow it to be destroyed by people who have no respect for property. Simple as that.
One of the real joys for me of this hobby - like most hobbies - is meeting the people of it. We all have a common interest (even as diverse as that can be within it's confines) but come from a variety of backgrounds and life experiences. Still, it is a joy to talk with and get to know folks from this beloved hobby of ours. I have especially enjoyed doing this at local train shows and meeting up with some of the fine folks here from the forum. It's always great to finally put a face to the name.
With that said, I am very sorry for the bad experiences you've experienced recently, Bob, and can completely understand your reasons for limiting the accessibility to your layout to the general public. It's a real shame - especially for those you might have benefited from seeing your efforts, skill level, and modeling experience.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
I'm sorry too to hear of your experiences. You hate to hear stories like that about the hobby and how a few bad eggs can ruin it for everyone.
On the good side, I have to say that we have had our display layout at shows for the past 7-8 years where it has been seen by tens of thousands of people. We also leave it unattended and uncovered at night. I've expected many times to come back and find that things were missing since vehicles aren't glued down and we leave the trains out too. There were times I half expected to find whole buildings missing. So far, though, that hasn't been the case. About the only real damage has been a few loose people or a broken switchstand, which is too close to the edge anyway.
So sometimes you have problems where you don't expect it (in your own basment) and then times where nothing happens where you do expect it. Of course, after saying that, I'll probably find the whole layout missing at the next show we attend!
Jim
Hi!
How sad, but I sure can't blame you. Most all of the MRs I've met are regular folks, but obviously it only takes one or two in a group to ruin the whole experience.
Frankly, that is one of the reasons I'm a "Lone Wolf" MR, and I expect I'll always be one.
For what its worth, I would definitely advise the organizers of the tours of your withdrawal - and of course the whys of it all.
Mobilman44
ENJOY !
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
I guess I am guilty of some of the complaints expressed here--- only in reverse.
My vice is sneaking extra models surrepticiously onto people's layouts when they are not looking. Like a fellow who had trhe supporting column for an upper level conspicuously near his lower level yard throat. It was a simple matter to measure that post, then make a pre-fab modular shell to glue around the post when he wasn't looking to camoflage it as a switch tower.
Another fellow had a layout notorious for all-night operating sessions- he wouldn't let people go home. He also had a vacant spot on a street that was just too inviting a "business opportunity." One night, an "after-hours club" suddenly appeared on that site, with graphics of a bleary-eyed night owl.
But those are among the dangers of having visitors. Unplanned extra additions may show up!
Sorry to hear of your difficulties, but realize that there are some who come to you home not to see your layout, but specifically to steal and case your home. Ever sell your used car yourself ? I did once. Guy shows up with 2 little kids. The little one, may 5 years old, asks to use the bathroom. My wife takes her in to the house. Next thing she in the kitchen getting some water. As soon as she she comes out dad says let's go. Not interested in car only taking the kids around to have something to do. They're gone and so too is my wife's engagement ring which had been on the sink counter when she did dishes. Did the kid take the ring. I don't believe in coincidences....do you? Oliver Twist lives!!!
Can't blame the OP for his outlook.
I never, ever let anyone into my basement who isn't a trusted friend or a trusted friend of a trusted friend. In addition to lots of model railroad stuff, my other hobby is performance motorcycles. And I have lots of toolboxes with lots of valuable, specialized tuning tools in them.
It's just too easy for some people to give in to temptation. I don't want to be the one tempting them.
This isn't exactly a new situation. Clear back in the 1960s, Whit Towers closed the Alturas and Lone Pine to tour groups after a brass Shay vanished during an NMRA Division group visit. (The group replaced the Shay, but the culprit never owned up to it.)
One reason that I'm the lonest of lone wolves is that my wife is absolutely paranoid about allowing any but trusted friends and blood relations into our home. Anyone else is interviewed through a locked iron grillwork door, which frustrates the visiting Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses and political pitch people terribly. OTOH, there have been too many incidents reported of armed home invasions, and of later burglaries where the premises had been cased by some `legitimate' visitor who later returned to take easily-pawned items.
My layout isn't visitor-friendly because Ive never intended to open it up to visitors. If that constitutes withdrawal from the sub-human race, so be it.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - privately)
PastorBob,
That is just sad!! I understand and respect your feelings. I guess that I don't blame you. It seems that good manners and respect for other individuals (and their property) has gone out of style. All of us reading this Forum spend a great deal of time and money on our layouts. I showed my 1st layout in the 1980's when I lived in St. Louis, MO. It was for the regional convention. I had close to 400 visitors. Everyone was respectful and there was neither damage to the layout nor loss of property. My wife was the only other person there to help me. I had one derailment and was hard pressed to have someone place the locomotive back on the track (I was on the other side of the layout and had little chance of getting to the location due to the number of visitors).
I live in an area of North Carolina that does not have an active Division of the NMRA, so I guess I won't have to worry about having your type of experience. Keep the faith, there still are some good people out there.
Craig North Carolina
Unfortunately, I believe we are seeing the results of permissive parenting reap the results you describe. Instead of parents dealing with their little brats who touch things they shouldn't they allow it and criticize us adults who suggest that their little ones are less than perfect. When these little ones grow up (actually get older but fail to grow up) they just produce more offspring who have no respect for other peoples property, kindness and generosity. Hopefully, this is still the minority of visitors but it only takes one malcontent to destroy weeks of scenery work or a $200+ locomotive.
While I do not have a layout worthy of an open house yet, I do have a plan to protect my more expensive locomotives and rolling stock. They are only for my use and others that I totally trust. My grandkids (until they are trained properly) and all other visitors can run my garage sale and used Bachman trains so if they drop it or run it off the layout I won't be out a great deal.
Bob.
As a modular layout guy I can easily see your point. I too have watched parents watch their children remove things from our modules and not blink an eye over the damage they do. At one show a grown adult male had walked up to one of my modules and rested both elbows on the top. When I asked him to remove them for fear of damaging the foam top he argued with me over their construction! I can not count how many times I want to just leave my modules at home and say the heck with it! It amazes me that the kids are better behaved then the adults. At one show I stopped on the main to clear a switch for an opposing train. This woman thought it stalled and pushed it by hand into the open switch which derailed the oncoming train and damaged the pilot of my steam engine. I was so mad I yelled out PLEASE DON"T TOUCH THE TRAINS!!!! She offered up no apology or anything and just walked away.
I can truly feel your pain.
Pete
I pray every day I break even, Cause I can really use the money!
I started with nothing and still have most of it left!
I am sorry to hear about this and know what you mean. I am 16 and have some freinds(none are MR's) that see the layout most are good about being careful but some just think its a toy and put freight cars on top of buildings, drive the auto's on the layout around wrecking scenary. I just never let them near the layout, but see that your problem is not as simple. Soory
Next time keep the .44 on a holster on your hip, that will scare the nitpickers.(Ha Ha)
"Mess with the best, die like the rest" -U.S. Marine Corp
MINRail (Minessota Rail Transportaion Corp.) - "If they got rid of the weeds what would hold the rails down?"
And yes I am 17.
Sorry to hear of your situation, but understand your position totally. The saddest part is that many of these incidents have occurred with other model railroaders, who as mentioned should know better. Outsiders have little idea of the costs and values of our items, but that is still no excuse for taking or willfully damaging them. Society has always had some percentage of meliciously irresponsible people, but the percentage seems to have grown markedly in the past few decades. They have no concept of caring for other peoples possessions.
I have only been to one home layout where operating sessions were held. There were spots where asile space was limited and I could see how some mishaps could occur. Accidents do happen, but folks should be ready to admit it and offer to help with the repairs in some manner.
Your sharing of your situation does give me food for thought though. If I ever have a layout that I would open to public display, I will do some careful planning as to numbers in the room at a time and securing any items of value (dollar or sentimental) out of reach or sight.
I drive school bus and some of the kids these days, if they get it in their hand, it's theirs. They think, if they want it they should have it. They are given things far to freely. I still have the first Lionel engine I bought with my own earnings. Though it is not of great dollar value, it has great value to me because I EARNED IT. These kids and many adults have little idea what it is to have to earn and then reap the rewards of that effort.
Hope you find many good people to enjoy your railroad with you.
Richard
"The more people I meet, the more I love my dog."
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
OK..it was a single locked post.
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
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Looks like your thread was unlocked. There was no flaming involved and a lot of thoughts have been well expressed.
My thoughts: I find it very saddening that our society has deteriorated to this point. I remember that back in the 80s and early 90s, layout visits were quite common and photos were often published in model railroad related magazines, including MRR.
Seems that after 2000, when a higher percentage of modelers had web access than during the 90s, the stories of open house nightmare scenarios in modeler's homes were being reported more frequently. Add to that, today hosts have to be concerned about someone getting hurt in their home as out litigation happy society encourages frivilous lawsuits over things like hot coffee.
I salute the kind modelers that choose to host an open house, but having worked with today's children myself (many whom are being raised by extremely permissive parents) and dealing with adults that freely put their hands on my models without permission, I certainly would suggest to hosts that erecting some sort of transparent barrier around your layout, if feasible, is not a far fetched idea. Also, storing those expensive models, locking bedrooms, having trusted family members or friends "floating" around the home to help "guide" visitors that stray off course on their way to the bathroom may be helpful in keeping the experience a positive one.
"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"
leighant I guess I am guilty of some of the complaints expressed here--- only in reverse. My vice is sneaking extra models surrepticiously onto people's layouts when they are not looking. Like a fellow who had trhe supporting column for an upper level conspicuously near his lower level yard throat. It was a simple matter to measure that post, then make a pre-fab modular shell to glue around the post when he wasn't looking to camoflage it as a switch tower. Another fellow had a layout notorious for all-night operating sessions- he wouldn't let people go home. He also had a vacant spot on a street that was just too inviting a "business opportunity." One night, an "after-hours club" suddenly appeared on that site, with graphics of a bleary-eyed night owl. But those are among the dangers of having visitors. Unplanned extra additions may show up!
LOL I once slipped a toy Godzilla into a friends N gauge city layout ...took him a week to notice it. Bob sorry the human race has let you down, but I'm not surprised by that kind of behavior any more. People have really lost thier manners of late. One solution may be to use the same chip technology used in retail stores. Just put the sensor gates at the entry and wait and see if it gets triggered when someone leaves. That would really shut down the thieves at least.
Have fun with your trains
Boy oh boy Pastorbob,
Real sorry for your losses. I for some reason always felt that model railroaders were the most trusted people on earth, At least all the ones I have been in contact with. I have hosted 3 local tours, the past few years. Nothing got damaged or taken BUT, one young boy, who was about 9 or 10 yrs old, who by the way was with his dad, just could not keep his hands off my layout. I was more upset with his dad,than I was with the boy. I kept an eye on him for a bit until I couldn't take it any longer, I just had to tell his dad to please tell your son not to touch anything on the layout. You will not believe what that guy said to me. Why, what do you think he'll BRAKE SOMETHING ?? I said, Well yes, could you please speak to him. The guy just said come on son they don't want us here. And they left I just couldn't believe it. That was the only problem I ever had with local tours at my house. Now I was asked by the pres. of my regional NMRA ,if I would be interested in opening for an upcoming NMRA tour. I told him I didn't think I would have enough of my new layout finished in time,but if do I will let him know.
After reading this thread, I think I will have 2nd thoughts about opening for an NMRA tour.
Sam
Eaglescout -- while I have complete sympathy with PastorBob's plight, please don't fall into the "kids these day's" routine. While there are certainly kids who cause problems, they are not the majority. Following on your own tag, our scout troop has five active Eagles, two more awaiting approval, and two working on it. Not bad for 15 scouts, the rest of whom aren't there yet, but on the path. This year alone they have cleaned up homes after tornados hit, and put in hundreds of hours in service projects. My wife & I also coach soccer and out of the hundreds of kids involved there, only a very few cause problems. And in most of those cases, it is the parents who are the real problem, not the kid. In the local high school, the kids run blood drives, pick up trash, and about every thing you can think of. Are they all perfect? Certainly not. There are the trouble makers, users, and such. But they make up a very small percentage of the kid generation. Please don't slam an entire generation of kids and their parents for the actions of a very few.
Your experience and those of others who have replied gives me pause. I have been asked to open my small layout October 2012 during our regional convention. Makes me wonder if I might be sorry.
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