I also can relate to Bobs post, on one of my first layouts some one put a quarter on the rails and burnt out one of my early walk arounds that I built from MR. For some odd reason it didn't blow he fuse, it was a complete melt down. I have since moved and have built a club sized layout in my basement and have had 2 new Kato loco's disapear, now it is locked and stays locked until I open the door, 2 keys, mine and the wife's in case of an emergency. Too much time and labor is involved in todays home layouts to be mauled by folks who are either jealous or envious of our work and to be abused without any remorse. Jim.
Bob,I'm sorry to hear that but,one must do what needs doing..
Now,I will invite certain modelers over to view Slate Creek (when built) and that will be the extent of any public viewing.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
I have been opening my layout for tours for over 25 years. Yeah, I have experienced thefts, smelly and noisy kids, rude comments, and several times I have said "No More!" But the hobby is about sharing and I have refused to let the extremely small percentage of butt brains spoil this for me and so many who do enjoy visiting and behave quite well.
What I have done is to lay out ground rules......
1.Photos are allowed and encouraged, but no camera bags or any other kind of bag or box including ladies handbags will be allowed in basement.
2. Loose clothing, jackets, or coats are not allowed in train room.
3. Kids must be completely self propelled and over eight years......No exceptions!!!!! I once relaxed this, and lost a scratch built bridge to a small hand.
4.Teens must be accompained by adult.
5. All must sign guest register.
6. Unknowns are strictly forbidden access to other parts of home.
My basement model railroad is fairly large, and may accomodate over 75 folks at a time, but anytime I have groups over 10, I have help in running trains, fielding questions and comments and ..............you bet....security!
Bacically, just use common sense. I have in the past tossed someone out, but that was and is rare.
HZ
JMBJMB,
I think you made exactly the same points I did but with a little different twist. I pointed out that it is probably still a small minority but I stand by the my observation that the problem is growing worse with more permissive parents producing more permissive kids who don't really grow up and produce more permissive kids. I know it is better to think positive but I won't stick my head in the sand and pretend it is not happening.
Those involved in scouting, local churches and other clubs certainly are in the group that allow for open houses to occur without problems. When I meet kids with the proper training I am quick to compliment them and their parents for their behavior and citizenship. When scouting is bashed by certain groups in our country my blood boils. Scouting was the single most powerful influence in my growing up with honor, respect for others and all those scout qualities that make this country better. Maybe local scouts could provide some security during open houses (with adult supervision, of course.)
Bob,
You don't need to apologize. A man's gotta do what a man's gotta do. If you feel you want to share again after rethinking things, Howard Zane's post looks like a good way to operate.
Cheers, Jim Fitch
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Club I belonged to about 20 years ago ended up installing drop-in Plexiglas guards along the layout to stop the damage from fingers and dragging coat sleeves. We had many more problems with adults than kids, and I don't recall any equipment being stolen -- but almost all of the locomotives were "home-road" lettered for the club.
My current club opens only to recognized groups, like RR historical societies, or to visitors vouched for by club members. I don't miss the stress of annual shows.
I can understand Bob's feelings completely, and probably would have shut down after the very first theft. That's a little too much "sharing of the hobby."
Bob --
Hearing about behavior like you experienced really ticks me off.
It can't be just kids and parents nowadays. I've been a Den Leader, Cubmaster, and Committee Chairperson of my local Cub Scout pack for going on 9 years now, and I can say for sure that there are misbehaved children and lousy parents out there. But they're in the minority. You just notice them more because they're so obnoxious.
Really, though, most of the boors I encounter these days are old enough not to be the products of the latest craze in "permissive parenting" -- and how permissive is it really? When my neighbors heard that my 8 and 10 year old sons were going to be "latchkey kids" for about 15 minutes every day before their mother gets home in the afternoon, you should have seen the expressions of horror. And yet I did it at that age -- for a lot longer than half an hour -- and didn't suffer for it.
No, we're just having what I call an epidemic of rudeness. Drivers on the roads are just obnoxious. And this past Saturday, I was able to go to the Penn State football game. I was seated right on the aisle, and about every fifth person who walked up or down bumped into me... some just a little jostle, but in one case hard enough to make me spill my lemonade on the back of the guy in front of me. How many of them said "sorry" or "excuse me"? I can count them on the fingers of one hand.
Connecticut Valley Railroad A Branch of the New York, New Haven, and Hartford
"If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right." -- Henry Ford
There's never time to do it right, but always time to do it over.....
I understand completely! We have had similar problems in our local group which has held a series of open houses for decades. Other modelers here in our area, some well known, have had similar experiances as well.
It is cultural, and it is a sign of cultural decline, and/or fragmentation - buts that is another topic........
Having helped a number of our group members with their open houses, and have been to quite a few open houses, I have learned one thing - even with the best guests, open houses are less of a problem if the layout is designed for larger groups of viewers in the first place.
This does not mean you must have 6 foot isles and plexiglass, but the other extreme is simply not good for crowds.
For me, should my current layout ever be far enough along to consider an open house, I have a few advandages that I planned in - wide isles and the layout is not in my house, but rather above my detached garage.
As to the theft issue, I like the earlier suggestion of a side arm, it would send the message that one is not to be "messed with" - I could wear my Berretta on my hip, it would not bother me one bit, anyone who is bothered, is likely who you don't want around.
I'm a big believer that locks and guns are good, they remind people, good and bad, of where they belong and what they cannot touch.
Unlike some others, I have never had all this "warm and fuzzy" trust in other people, and 54 years has not changed my view.
Still more a lone wolf than a social sheep,
Sheldon
richhotrain I am sure that 9 out of every 10 people who visit a layout on an organized tour are well meaning folks, but not being able to identify and ban that tenth character is enough to keep most of us from ever opening up our house and our layout to strangers.
I am sure that 9 out of every 10 people who visit a layout on an organized tour are well meaning folks, but not being able to identify and ban that tenth character is enough to keep most of us from ever opening up our house and our layout to strangers.
I think what Bob is noticing is that in the better times it was 9 out of 10 being well meaning folks. These days it seem like it's dropped to 7 out of 10 - and getting worse.
I think this sort of thing is being experienced in all areas of life these days. It's a sad reflection of where our culture is heading. But that's drifting off topic...
Bob - please don't lose heart. Stopping home tours seems like a sensible decision, but I pray that it doesn't taint your enjoyment of this hobby and aspects of your day job (if you're still active in the ministry).
MAbruce richhotrain: I am sure that 9 out of every 10 people who visit a layout on an organized tour are well meaning folks, but not being able to identify and ban that tenth character is enough to keep most of us from ever opening up our house and our layout to strangers. I think what Bob is noticing is that in the better times it was 9 out of 10 being well meaning folks. These days it seem like it's dropped to 7 out of 10 - and getting worse. I think this sort of thing is being experienced in all areas of life these days. It's a sad reflection of where our culture is heading. But that's drifting off topic... Bob - please don't lose heart. Stopping home tours seems like a sensible decision, but I pray that it doesn't taint your enjoyment of this hobby and aspects of your day job (if you're still active in the ministry).
richhotrain: I am sure that 9 out of every 10 people who visit a layout on an organized tour are well meaning folks, but not being able to identify and ban that tenth character is enough to keep most of us from ever opening up our house and our layout to strangers.
At age 75, while I am "supposed" to be retired, I still am active in ministry, and right now we are working with a group of kids that have only one parent in their lives. I have had them in the basement to see the railroad (even have a couple of them come back to visit again), and between my wife who is ten years younger than me and works with youth at church) and a youth worker and I, we have had a good experience with this. Actually I worry less about youth and more about adults who should know better.
I guess my comments are directed more to adults (including some who are modelers) than to kids and youth. The adults are the ones I have to watch closely, as they are more prone to do damage or remove items.
What I am really getting at is that we as modelers just can't let every Tom Dick or Harry down in the train room, or for that matter even in the home without watching and keeping track. Too many home invasions happen because someone got into the home earlier on some other pretext, and "cased the joint".
To say I am disappointed is an understatement, but we do reach a few and that is important. But I am being a lot more selective about who is invited, and I don't have groups in anymore without some of the other railroaders present. A sad commentary.
Bob
I've stayed out of this up to now, but I do think it's easy to get overly gloomy about our fellow citizens. The whole idea of society getting worse is repeated often, but various measures like crime statistics don't necessarily bear it out. There's a fair amount of study on this aspect of human perception, suggesting that a person typically thinks society started going downhill at about the time he reached 20-25 years of age. Anyway...
I started reading the experiences in this thread out of curiosity as I'm preparing for another layout tour next month. I don't do public open houses, only tours for the local clubs or the NMRA divison, which limits the participants to other modelers. At one time I also hosted visits for Boy Scout and Cub Scout groups, but the only visitors that broke or stole anything were scouts, maybe because a gaggle of boys always has a few who are trying to out-macho each other, but who knows.
During a tour, I always try to have somebody at the front door, and another helper that stays near the train room entrance to keep watch. We all try to keep a closer eye on those we don't know or who act odd in any way. Reasonable precautions seem to keep things under control, but then again I could end up with some bad experiences like Bob. I like sharing the hobby too much to want to withdraw, so I hope I can maintain enthusiasm for future tours.
Rob Spangler
And I certainly hope your experience goes better. I have been having layout tours for a large number of years, and it is only the last 5 years or so that I really started having problems. My wife jokingly said maybe I should have a detector at the entrance.
A story I have told before, but I have a Lionel scale Hudson going back to the 30's that my dad got me for my first Christmas. I was 6 months old, but dad was a Santa Fe engineer who couldn't wait to have a "boy child" so he would have an excuse to have a layout. It worked. That scale hudson came into my hands when dad died, and I had it on a bookshelf outside the door to the train room.
During a tour, a guy came up and pulled out his billfold which had a lot of green showing. He offered me first $500, then $1000 and then two more offers. By this time my wife, who was manning (or is that womaning) the door got very nervous. I rejected all offers but after the tours had finished, the Hudson was moved to a shelf over the fireplace which was impossible to reach because of the layout (obviously we did not use that fireplace) and has remained there ever since.
Just can't be too careful.
The layout at my LHS (which goes from N to O) has removable plexiglass surrounding it to make sure nothing like all of this happens. It seems to have worked so far. It may be expensive, but have you though of using a shield for your layout? It may cut down on dumb people causing so many problems if you ever wish to show your layout again.
_________________________________________________________________
I suppose, there will always be thieves in our world as has been the case since the beginning of civilization. So, each of us must protect our property.
I can not imagine an actual model railroader stealing a locomotive for his layout. It would certainly not make the hobby fun and enjoyable if we are stealing our trains.
I would guess thieves of model trains do it to sell it for the money. Sin is sin, and peopel will answer for sins.
GARRY
HEARTLAND DIVISION, CB&Q RR
EVERYWHERE LOST; WE HUSTLE OUR CABOOSE FOR YOU
I can relate to this. When ever we have people over, Liam is always wanting to show the trains to the kids so i have to police it so little if anything goes missing or damaged.
Same with going to shows, I know for a 5 yr old, Liam is pretty good with stuff, but I have to keep reminding him not to touch & he doesn't.
He's also not afraid to ask anyone if he can run a train, just ask TA462!
Gord
Brought to you by the letters C.P.R. as well as D&H!
K1a - all the way
It's sad to hear that again. A few people again deprive the majority from sharing and good will. It is to be expected when people don't own or pay for a thing since they often use them in a careless way ignoring the hard work behind it. Breaking thing is a thing, stealing is an other... Coming from fellow modelers, that's even more frustrating since they should know the amount of time and investment put into this hobby.
I never experienced theft, but experienced a vandalism rampage few years ago. I clearly remember a meeting when most P2K boxcars and IMR grain hoppers lost their stirrups and brake wheel in some unorthodox fashion. Some cars also started to roll funnily after... until we discovered someone went as far as to use our dremel and cut several notches on metal wheels just to get a clickety sound... (Since they had the brilliant idea to butch a odd number of wheel sets, I still have one I can't use in the junk box which remember me this bitter event). I wasn't there at that moment, but I've heard later that most visitors decided to launch a pulling contest that only grade schoolers would think about... ending with scratched paint from bolt, nuts and whatever they found out in the garage to put weight on the engine. We knew who started this mess, but he always denied everything.
It was probably the only time I lost my temper over a hobby, but we needed to clarify things. After this meeting, we learned our lesson. Never operate the layout when there's too much visitors. The more the merrier they, and it's well known a crowd has 0 QI. All these people, as individual,would behave properly, but not as a crowd. At least, our vandal moderated his ways and worked diligently on improving the layout few times after... Looks like he was to proud to apologize but still wanted to repair his mistakes.
Matt
Proudly modelling the Quebec Railway Light & Power Co since 1997.
http://www.hedley-junction.blogspot.com
http://www.harlem-station.blogspot.com
The LION has no problems with unruly visitors. (He eats them.)
Seriously, I had not know this was such a problem. But that is the world we live in.
My layout is in a classroom above the library, and it is a private building. But we are monks, and monks have visitors. Many want to see the railroad. I really cannot refuse them, it is not my room, and I do not own any trains. Yes, I am the only one who builds them, but I cannot complain and claim "they are mine!"
That is the price one must pay for living in a monastery. I get to have a big room, and all of the tools that I need are nearby. The have barns filled with old but serviceable lumber, and all kinds of stuff that I can put to work on a railroad. But all of it is part of this world and makes no lasting impression on my soul. When I die, they will chop it all up, drag it out to the burn pile, and somebody else will do something else in this room.
So I let the kids look. It's not like anybody can put a subway train in their pocket. (The cars do not uncouple)
You want to know what really hurt me. Somebody took the red hat off of my stuffed tiger down by the wine cellar. My mother made that hat for a stuffed donkey, and I put the hat on the tiger in honor of some Red Hat Ladies who were visiting the wine cellar. The hat stayed there for about three years, and just recently I saw that it was gone. I always pointed it out to visitors, saying that the tiger had eaten a Red Hat Lady. Now the hat is gone.
Well I can buy another red hat for the tiger, and my mother can still knit me another for the donkey, so even this does not rise to the level of an eternal issue.
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
Just to update from my earlier comments in this thread about preparing for an open house...
I had around 70 total visitors through the train room today for a layout tour sponsored by a local club, but open to the NMRA division as well. I did not notice any damage or theft. I had a couple of helpers on hand the whole time to police the place, plus the separate basement entrance was blocked to discourage its use, forcing everyone to enter and exit via the front door where my wife was keeping watch as well. I thought it might be nice to provide a report on a positive experience.
I have not read all of the posts on this thread yet but feel compelled to comment. In one of my very first model railroad magazines I remember reading about a scratch built locomotive being stolen while the layout was open to a tour. In the magazine was a detailed description and possibly a photo of the item, I don't recall at this time. The passage devoted to this was also an all points bulletin type of message for folks to be on the look out for the item. That was close to 40 years ago. I am a former police officer and for a time ran my own investigation company and taught private security classes. I now work for Homeland Security. One thing I learned from my past endeavors is that about 20% of the people are honest and will not steal under any circumstances. Another 20% of the people are dishonest and will routinely steal even if it is likely they will get caught. The remaining 60% will steal if they think they can get away with it. I do not ever plan on inviting strangers into my home on a tour. I do not feel like catching the 20% and deterring the other 60% that will be tempted to take from me.
In my case I can not condone theft of anyone's property either real or intellectual. My feelings on this are very strict. I firmly believe that you are more than justified in not allowing anyone in to see your layout and see no reason for you to feel any sorrow for your decision. Should I feel that any of my efforts are worthy of showing to others I will attempt to video them and post them on the web for others to enjoy if they so desire.
Many of these items are expensive enough to warrant felony charges, if the party responsible were caught and convicted they could be put into prison. It says a great deal about the values people have when they can steal from someone. I wish all thieves the misery they deserve.
Hi!
My nephew (now an asst. Chief of an Illinois police force outside Chicago) started out as a "Mall Cop" many years ago. He tells how he had a hidden station in a cosmetic jewelry store, and caught many shoplifters. What he still talks about is that about half of those caught looked and acted like they would never do such a thing. And, the vast majority of these had money, and it was more for the thrill and taking an opportunity than an actual need.
His takeaway from that stint was that thieves don't necessarily look like thieves, and there are folks that can look you in the eye and lie very convincingly. AND, on the other hand, there are folks out there that are honest and gentle and caring - but their looks would scare most of us away.
My thoughts.......... Treat everyone with respect, but be aware.
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
I've managed to sidestep a lot of these issues by running a ceiling train; I'm 6'7" & I can't reach it, so neither can you...I am also designing in web cams & video camera mounts, & will have it all co-ordinated through my computer/and or TV screen. This way I can share real-time running with everybody, on-line..and not have to worry about my medicine cabinet being emptied...