blownout cylinder Again, to reiterate my previous message(s)...I have NOT had any problem gaining..and maintaining any contact with this forum...and YET my cache remains intact..since who knows how far back...all kinds of cookies are still in their folders..and et cetera... I just noticed that a few posters on another thread have been having issues not being able to post anything as well... And again, if it were corrupted files and such as crowded caches then this would be affecting more than just ONE site...
Again, to reiterate my previous message(s)...I have NOT had any problem gaining..and maintaining any contact with this forum...and YET my cache remains intact..since who knows how far back...all kinds of cookies are still in their folders..and et cetera...
I just noticed that a few posters on another thread have been having issues not being able to post anything as well...
And again, if it were corrupted files and such as crowded caches then this would be affecting more than just ONE site...
Yes, but if this were a problem involving Javascript and/or CSS, then it could be EXACTLY contained to this site and only this site. And, that is actually the most logical explanation for the problem-- especially given that it started reoccurring at the same time as the popups. Popup advertising, of the variety they used, involves BOTH Javascript AND CSS containers.
Moreover, because Microsoft has always insisted upon being DIFFERENT from every other standard on the planet, there are TWO types of Javascript code-- the one for "Everybody BUT Microsoft browsers" and then the one for "Microsoft browsers". To further complicate the issue, each REVISION of the browsers have their own little issues-- compatibility, workability-- etc. So it is quite typical that when you browse through Javascript that you see code that works for Firefox (et al), Microsoft IE4, IE5+, IE8, etc. As each has it's own set of issues that have to be worked around. This is ALSO a common issue in the CSS-- "cascading style sheet" markup codes that form the underlying framework-- skeleton if you will-- of a web page.
Yes there is still HTML involved, but modern web sites are much more complicated than they used to be. Nowadays, web application developers utilize a variety of technologies that (supposedly) work together (to varying degrees) such as HTML, Javascript, CSS, XML / JSON / YAML, some variety of interface such as REST / SOAP / WSF-- etc., and then back end code which can be developed in a variety of languages and does not even have to be all the same language-- such as JAVA (*not* Javascript), PHP, Perl, ASP (and the .NET Microsoft family), Ruby or others.
Additionally, large applications often use intermediate layers such as Messaging, Database Abstraction, Object-Relational Mapping, etc, etc. And finally, the applications are typically deployed in a clustered or "high-availability" fashion across MULTIPLE servers which MAY or MAY NOT be actually synchronized with respect to their code, function, or operational capabilities.
And of course, there are also the usual culprits as well-- bugs, "mis-features", poorly-coded functions, non-optimal architectural or deployment strategies, choked databases, misbehaving messaging layers, etc. Not to mention Mr. Murphy, the phases of the moon, and whether it happens to be an alternate Thursday.
It all has to go together and work reasonably correctly (not totally correctly) for the site to function at all. If it does not work totally correctly then you can have "unusual" functionality-- which is UNDEFINED in it's behavior, since its by definition, "something BROKEN".
I happen to know that this site is based on some version of "Telligent Community Software". I'm not sure which revision. (http://telligent.com/) Telligent is a large, commercial "Community" platform-- i.e., what this site is. It has MANY features and abilities to customize its behavior. It is also possible to change its "templates" (the underlying "scaffolds" that everything hangs on). Customize features through the use of "add-ons" and "permissions" (ACL's-- access control lists), etc. Entire chunks of the site can be turned ON or OFF by the site owner (Kalmbach) to tailor its functionality to the specific feature set that is desired.
For instance, the fully-implemented community server package DOES permit the ability to upload pictures DIRECTLY into the post-- skipping entirely the problem of having to host your image somewhere-- but that is one of the features that Kalmbach chooses NOT to implement. (Their business, not mine. I'm just pointing it out).
The Telligent software IS a modern web-based application which takes advantage of nearly all of the parts and pieces I mentioned above. In using a web-application debugger to open the running page, I see no less than SIX or SEVEN spots where it pulls in whole Javascript code segments that do whatever they do. I didn't investigate further. If you want to, feel free. It's all there.
Each of THOSE Javascript code segments are free to pull in yet MORE Javascript code segments, if they need or want to, so it can actually get quite code-heavy. To reduce page load times, it is QUITE COMMON to pull and CACHE Javascript code segments-- as well as CSS definitions and other stuff. Each of these caches are SITE DEPENDENT-- they exist if the SITE wants it.
Moreover, if the site makes use of another technology called "FLASH" (or "Silverlight" -- Microsoft's version), then there is a WHOLE 'NUTHER set of caches that are NOT controlled by the browser-- which, frankly, Adobe and Microsoft do everything in their power to keep them hidden and OUT of your control-- something that CONGRESS is getting into the act about, regarding "cookie" and "privacy" issues, but that's a WHOLE separate discussion.
FLASH, and to a lesser extent Silverlight, are ALSO both heavily used for advertising and popups. Although in this case I rather suspect they are NOT the culprits since all of my browsers utilize FLASH blockers and they were not triggered by this last episode. Thus I discount the prospect that the issue is based on FLASH and friends.
When RANDY talks about flushing your caches-- it's not because your browser picks up cruft from OTHER sites, its because it can pick it up from THIS site and for some reason NOT HONOR the request by this site to retrieve a new copy of a Javascript or CSS component (for instance) so the page might be sending out instructions to do something or other that your CACHED copy doesn't know anything about (or vice-versa). Moreover, if they combine their cache concept with the FLASH-based cache methods it can become darned-near impossible to correctly flush them without TOTALLY uninstalling the browser AND the plugins AND the FLASH/Silverlight AND then dumping the temp files and all known caches-- INCLUDING the hidden cache areas that FLASH installs. Some sites-- I don't THINK the MR site is one of them-- can use these advanced caching techniques to "survive" nearly anything you or a cleanup program can throw at them and then be able to pick up and continue "tracking" you (or else simply remembering your settings) even AFTER you have done darned near everything you can think of to FLUSH it out!
I'm not making that up-- you are free to google it yourself. But here is a quick overview of the technique if you're interested:
http://www.wired.com/epicenter/2011/07/undeletable-cookie/
I could go on at quite some length regarding the various issues involved and both HOW and WHY it CAN be a problem with YOUR browser despite the fact that you "HAVEN'T CHANGED ANYTHING" blah blah blah-- and even though you are sort of "right", from your perspective, the REAL TRUTH is that things can get changed ANYWAY even without your consent or knowledge.
Welcome to the REAL new world. Forget privacy, it doesn't exist anymore. These little "issues" that crop up from time-to-time are just the tip of the iceburg for what's really happening.
And I am NOT suggesting that Kalmbach is doing anything dirty or underhanded, or even engaging an outside party who knowingly or unknowingly does anything dirty or underhanded. These are just the new, modern techniques, and just like dynamite-- you can use it to help build a dam or else blow one up. Your choice.
John
TMarsh Hi. Computer Dumby here. Is it possible that some file was corrupted or misplaced for a brief time on the website say with the popup thing and then was changed, and only those who were signed on to the website, knowing browsers like to hold files for quicker page viewing because we are so impatient anymore a second seems like a lifetime, are the only ones to have picked this up? And now when trying to open pages, it keeps refering to this file which is no longer applicable? I mean if there was such a file that would explain why so many have no problems. You often don't get the flu if you haven't been around it when someone is contagious. Just a thought. Myself I did have all the page recovered issues mentioned. All I did was click Compatibility View and all was well and has been since. I have yet to unclick and see if the problem is still there. I have IE 8 running on Windows XP. All updated to the latest. Antivirus, antispyware / adware / malware programs indicate no issues, and I am running a firewall. Supposedly three. But couldn't prove it by me. (see introduction above.) Umm, oh and a cable modem.
Hi. Computer Dumby here.
Is it possible that some file was corrupted or misplaced for a brief time on the website say with the popup thing and then was changed, and only those who were signed on to the website, knowing browsers like to hold files for quicker page viewing because we are so impatient anymore a second seems like a lifetime, are the only ones to have picked this up? And now when trying to open pages, it keeps refering to this file which is no longer applicable? I mean if there was such a file that would explain why so many have no problems. You often don't get the flu if you haven't been around it when someone is contagious. Just a thought.
Myself I did have all the page recovered issues mentioned. All I did was click Compatibility View and all was well and has been since. I have yet to unclick and see if the problem is still there.
I have IE 8 running on Windows XP. All updated to the latest. Antivirus, antispyware / adware / malware programs indicate no issues, and I am running a firewall. Supposedly three. But couldn't prove it by me. (see introduction above.) Umm, oh and a cable modem.
That is precisely one of the things that I have been suggesting. I do not know for a fact, it is simply a reasonable speculation that would fit the available details and account for why some people have the issue and some people don't.
And I really suspect that the problem stems from something that happened when they instituted the last round of "popups". They were only doing it on the MR sites so it would fit that only the MR people could be affected by it.
I did NOT SAY I HAD issues here...I don't have issues here..and that is WITH all the cruft and stuff still in here...
My system must be really robust then....
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
blownout cylinder I did NOT SAY I HAD issues here...I don't have issues here..and that is WITH all the cruft and stuff still in here... My system must be really robust then....
Hmmph. If you *REALLY* want to see something scary, go read that link I put in my previous post:
The Undeletable Cookie:
And they've been quietly doing their thing and getting away with it completely undetected for years. In fact, their very existence was only discovered by complete serendipity.
I forget what the original post said the message was but I do see Java mentioned a lot.
You could try this.
Uninstall Java.
Run a program called Ccleaner. http://www.piriform.com/CCLEANER It's a free program
Run the registry cleaner as well as the regular cleaner.
Then re-boot and try the site again. Ignore the java popups and see if the site at least stays on-line, or different messages appear.
If all clears except for java messages, re-install Java.
Ccleaner is a very good program to have if you don't have system maintenance programs such as System Mechanic, Advance Sysem Optimizer, etc. It keeps the crud out of the system left over from old programs and updates.
I personally use System Mechanic, and run it once a week. You'd be surprised how much better your computer runs running these type of programs and run periodic maintenance.
Springfield PA
Hamltnblue I forget what the original post said the message was but I do see Java mentioned a lot. You could try this. Uninstall Java. Run a program called Ccleaner. http://www.piriform.com/CCLEANER It's a free program Run the registry cleaner as well as the regular cleaner. Then re-boot and try the site again. Ignore the java popups and see if the site at least stays on-line, or different messages appear. If all clears except for java messages, re-install Java. Ccleaner is a very good program to have if you don't have system maintenance programs such as System Mechanic, Advance Sysem Optimizer, etc. It keeps the crud out of the system left over from old programs and updates. I personally use System Mechanic, and run it once a week. You'd be surprised how much better your computer runs running these type of programs and run periodic maintenance.
Java and Javascript are two completely different and unrelated languages that just happen to have unfortunate similar-sounding names. Javascript, more correctly called "ECMA Script" (who wants to say that? Sounds like a skin disease!) was "named" soon after Java first came out and was enjoying a lot of press. So by giving it a similar-sounding name, its creators hoped for a little of that press to spill over onto it. And ever since people have been confusing the two, what they do, and how they work. The fact that both are often used in web-application development doesn't help clear up matter either.
However, everything you said about regular maintenance and cleaning out the various temp files and bit buckets is spot on correct.
blownout cylinder My Laptop....Dell Inspiron 1520 with Intel Centrino Duo...Vista with Opera, FF5, IE9 and Chrome... My DAW ...Custom built with W7 and IE9 and Chrome... Both have access to the Internet...the DAW is regularly defragged and delinted of all cookies and temp files...Laptop is still not cleaned of temp files and cookies..... As I said before...I have no issues getting on this site with either of them....
My Laptop....Dell Inspiron 1520 with Intel Centrino Duo...Vista with Opera, FF5, IE9 and Chrome...
My DAW ...Custom built with W7 and IE9 and Chrome...
Both have access to the Internet...the DAW is regularly defragged and delinted of all cookies and temp files...Laptop is still not cleaned of temp files and cookies.....
As I said before...I have no issues getting on this site with either of them....
So there....haaaarrrruuuuummmpph
And anyone who doubts just how complex this crud really is should go back and read Mr. Whitten's last couple of posts. Sheesh.
Connecticut Valley Railroad A Branch of the New York, New Haven, and Hartford
"If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right." -- Henry Ford
OK, I am trying this doing what TA462 says he does - opens the thread in another tab, with the General Discussions page still opn in the first tab,
However, the fact that there are no problems on the Trains forum but are on the MRR forum - points to it NOT being the forum software because it's all one piece of software, Trains and MRR are just two different top level sections on the same forum.
edit: this posted just fine doing that
edit 2: able to edit it as well
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
The error messages ALWAYS say it's the site. After all, it's never the browser's fault something doesn't work right, they can't ever say that.
What's even more pointing to a computer issue is two other means of access work just fine, just that one computer has problems.
As for blaming bad code in the popup, so has anyone 100% blocked it the way I mentioned to see if that fixes the problem? I suppose I could take one for the team and stop blockign it and see if it breaks my syste,
OK, I removed the blocked site and restarted IE. I see the side ads now, but no popup. See if this posts.
Edit: posted fine. But I'm not getting the popup subscription ad at this time. I do now have the ads down the side, which also get blocked when the site is added to restricted sites.
rrinker OK, I am trying this doing what TA462 says he does - opens the thread in another tab, with the General Discussions page still opn in the first tab, However, the fact that there are no problems on the Trains forum but are on the MRR forum - points to it NOT being the forum software because it's all one piece of software, Trains and MRR are just two different top level sections on the same forum. edit: this posted just fine doing that edit 2: able to edit it as well --Randy It doesn't rule out either of (or the combination of) having Javascript code that only comes into effect for the MR site (based on URL, or config settings obtained via the session-id, etc) -AND/OR- a Javascript code block that was pushed when the pop-up problem happened, that was subsequently "fixed" (or turned-off, or otherwise nullified) and yet some people still have a cached copy that they're using. And it could also happen from cached copies of the CSS definitions too-- although that generally is less problematic, it is not completely ruled-out. Plus, it is entirely possible that the Javascript code is only triggered by certain browser combinations-- whether the Javascript code is still current, or a bad-cached copy is being used. In looking at my copy of the page, which I'm pulling with Firefox not MSIE, I see that Kalmbach appears to be using an advertising framework called 'phpAds', and at least two of the Javascript code segments that get pulled are related entirely to this, and a portion of a third segment-- most likely to incorporate the ad code into the general site code. The stuff that gets pulled for MSIE is likely to be similar but does not have to be exactly the same. It is possible to detect the browser during the initial transaction and ONLY send over code that is relevant for that browser (one common scenario), or to send over "generic" code that checks on-the-fly for one browser type or another, or (most commonly) a combination of the two. I could say more on this subject but being a moderator I'm not sure how much public "picking apart" of Kalmbach's site code is really appropriate. If someone else wants to do it, well-- it's not coming from me :-) John
It doesn't rule out either of (or the combination of) having Javascript code that only comes into effect for the MR site (based on URL, or config settings obtained via the session-id, etc) -AND/OR- a Javascript code block that was pushed when the pop-up problem happened, that was subsequently "fixed" (or turned-off, or otherwise nullified) and yet some people still have a cached copy that they're using. And it could also happen from cached copies of the CSS definitions too-- although that generally is less problematic, it is not completely ruled-out. Plus, it is entirely possible that the Javascript code is only triggered by certain browser combinations-- whether the Javascript code is still current, or a bad-cached copy is being used.
In looking at my copy of the page, which I'm pulling with Firefox not MSIE, I see that Kalmbach appears to be using an advertising framework called 'phpAds', and at least two of the Javascript code segments that get pulled are related entirely to this, and a portion of a third segment-- most likely to incorporate the ad code into the general site code.
The stuff that gets pulled for MSIE is likely to be similar but does not have to be exactly the same. It is possible to detect the browser during the initial transaction and ONLY send over code that is relevant for that browser (one common scenario), or to send over "generic" code that checks on-the-fly for one browser type or another, or (most commonly) a combination of the two.
I could say more on this subject but being a moderator I'm not sure how much public "picking apart" of Kalmbach's site code is really appropriate. If someone else wants to do it, well-- it's not coming from me :-)
rrinker OK, I removed the blocked site and restarted IE. I see the side ads now, but no popup. See if this posts. Edit: posted fine. But I'm not getting the popup subscription ad at this time. I do now have the ads down the side, which also get blocked when the site is added to restricted sites. --Randy
I think they changed the code they were pushing out--- the popups STOPPED shortly after everyone started complaining and the admins picked-up on the problem (I relayed the info to the admins via the RA forums). I was talking to several users about what to do about it-- when it suddenly stopped. I had already blocked it for my browser, but it stopped for everyone else. I suspect they changed something-- a setting, fixed some code-- something so that people aren't getting the same setup any more.
Or like mine..Up to the job.
I don't understand what these reported problems are with Microsoft,windows or IE9 since I have zero problems and I been using windows XP and Microsoft since 2001 when I got my first computer..
I am interested in the cause and fix.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Yeah it was worth a try just to prove it out. It seems all ad content comes from a specific site, that's why I was able to block all ads, popup and otherwise, by adding it to restricted sites. I just finished my cycle of hitting allt he sections and replying to multiple messages with the site unblocked and had no issues. But, yes, it could stil be in cache. Or in the system temp files which cache some other things. The ones that DON'T get cleaned up automatically by the disk cleanup process (seriously annoying, you'd think by now Microsoft would fix this). I'll keep trying, but eventually my fingers get tired of typing the same thing over and over
As noted earlier the Ad popup stopped shortly after it appeared and people complained. A few are blaming the site because it happened to them about the same time as the pop-up.
A few things could have happened including the problem happening after they took actions to try to block the pop-up. A google of the issue and message might find a solution.
I don't remember the symptoms that are being seen since the original thread is being blocked.
I also can understand MRR deleting the thread if they think the issue isn't theirs and don't want new visitors thinking something might with the site tha might screw up their machine.
Hmm, that likely backed off a few Windows Updates, which includes updates to IE. I tend to keepmy system compeltely up to date though, and as of today I have all the latest available updates installed. One possibility is that one update broke somethign and a subsequent update fixed it, but the subsequent ones hadn;t been installed yet. Just checked my update history but there haven't been any compatibility mode updates for a while, at least for IE9. I know with IE8 I used to get them fairly frequently. These are things that are supposed to make the compatibility mode work better, something like that could easily cause problems with just a specific or specific sites. Although, it doesn;t make sense that Trains was workign but MRR wasn't, it's all the same software.
Even though I have IE8, not IE9, I have clicked on Compatibility View to see if that makes a difference. I will let everyone know if the problem goes away.
Rich
Alton Junction
I have to wonder if the whole thing isn't a message from the model railroad gods, clearly saying....."get off the computer....model more.....".
I'm trying to model 1956, not live in it.
mmmm...and during all thiis time I had no probllems posting or getting on to this site on both computers...cleaned or not.
Very weird this....
richhotrain Even though I have IE8, not IE9, I have clicked on Compatibility View to see if that makes a difference. I will let everyone know if the problem goes away. Rich
Last night, after clicking on Tools, Compatibilty View on my IE8 browser, I posted several messages and did not have any problems and I did not get any messages like Tab Recovered or Microsoft Internet Explorer has encountered a problem.
Again this morning, I posted some more messages without any problems or error messages.
Interesting. So, maybe, problem solved?
I had heard that IE9 had problems interacting with this forum but not IE8. For me, IE8 had always worked just fine until about 10 days ago when a lot of us started experiencing problems - - - but only on this web site. Logic tells us that the problem is site-related.
Question for those who believe that the browser is the one with the issue...
How can the problem be with the browser when other people reported that the problem was also with other browsers as well? And only one site?
I'm still holding on that Kalmbach was doing something, had a file that they no longer have or removed..., something that those of us who signed on while this was there got the "bug" so to speak. That would explain why SOME ARE FINE AGAIN! , for Pete's sake, and others are not. Especially after I forget who, said they restored their computer back to before and now the problem went away.
No matter, this thread has given me some excellent ideas to do to clean up my wifes sloooooow computer. I have tried all I know as a computer dummy. Hers is almost a twin of mine and less than a year apart but at a time when the advances in hardware and such slowed so that we have almost identical computers except for the HD size. And I know that it is less than one quarter full. So there is no reason mine should flash along and hers should putz along.......just had a thought. Hers has not been on this site so if it were something downloaded...., hers would not have it. AND being virtually the same computer (XP with IE 8 etc..) they should act the same.
Anyway...thanks guys. You may not "get the site fixed" but you may stand a good chance of saving me some bucks to keep the wife happy.
Todd
Central Illinoyz
In order to keep my position as Master and Supreme Ruler of the House, I don't argue with my wife.
I'm a small town boy. A product of two people from even smaller towns. I don’t talk on topic….. I just talk.
Todd,I'm a computer dummy too but,know my son backs everything up and reformats my computer every time he upgrades it with his old computer parts every time he upgrades his gaming computer...Needless to say my computer is extremely fast.
Day 3 and I still have no more problems or error messages since I clicked on Tools, Compatibility View on my Internet Explorer 8 using a Microsoft XP operating system.
I have Windows xp on a 6 year old Dell desktop with AOL as my server. I USED to have NO problems until recently before I reloaded IE8.
Once I re-loaded IE 8 {which apparently my AOL uses or accesses as well unbeknownst to me} I have had no problems.
I think Kalmbach DID do something that DID do some corruption {maybe with the pop-up windows about renewing your subscription that popped up EVERY PAGE} , but many have been able to fix it on their computers. Perhaps Kalmbach thinks they got the problem solved?
When I reloaded IE 8, it asked if I wanted IE8 to replace the current version of IE on my computer, but did not tell me which version it was replacing, so I don't know if it was IE9 or an older version of IE that I had. {I said YES to replace it}.
I have not had problems since.
We DO have to remember that this IS a free forum supported by advertising and Kalmbach sales off the site, so we should be thankful. Let us not forget that.
-G .
Just my thoughts, ideas, opinions and experiences. Others may vary.
HO and N Scale.
After long and careful thought, they have convinced me. I have come to the conclusion that they are right. The aliens did it.