Yes I fired off an email to them, as soon as I received the notice from Dallas Model Works. I have not received any communication back.
It's a 3 person operation. There's not a big back room with "operators standing by to take your call" so it may be a while before you get a reply.
In any case, Jason Shron did appear on this forum and address some of the issues raised. Effectively, you've got your reply even if it wasn't personal and private.
Andre
andrechapelon It's really funny. All the people hyperventilating about this project haven't the foggiest idea what's involved. That a 3 employee company would attempt a project of this magnitude in a country with a population slightly less than the state of California is downright amazing. People should be kissing Jason Shron's tuchas for having the cojones to see this project to fruition and take the financial risk. Andre
It's really funny. All the people hyperventilating about this project haven't the foggiest idea what's involved. That a 3 employee company would attempt a project of this magnitude in a country with a population slightly less than the state of California is downright amazing. People should be kissing Jason Shron's tuchas for having the cojones to see this project to fruition and take the financial risk.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
blownout cylinder Good Grief... What is it with you fine people??? You don't like the way that they are doing business? No one is holding a knife under your'n throat ordering you to buy the thing. It is primarily geared to those who 'collect' limited editio n sets like this..there is no economy od scale here. It is also a large set...http://www.rapidotrains.com/telegraph_current.html..READ the thing!! Who else is going to go through ALL that work? You? Doubt it....and I am sure that the people actually making this are going to be paid a little pin money.......the detail on this thing is going to be something to behold, I tell you... So, give it a rest...
Good Grief...
What is it with you fine people???
You don't like the way that they are doing business? No one is holding a knife under your'n throat ordering you to buy the thing.
It is primarily geared to those who 'collect' limited editio n sets like this..there is no economy od scale here.
It is also a large set...http://www.rapidotrains.com/telegraph_current.html..READ the thing!! Who else is going to go through ALL that work? You? Doubt it....and I am sure that the people actually making this are going to be paid a little pin money.......the detail on this thing is going to be something to behold, I tell you...
So, give it a rest...
blownout cylinder Motley: TA462: Oh and just for the record, the guys that are actually buying these things don't shop at Walthers so they can go jump off a bridge (you know what I mean) too. TQ462, there you go again with the jumping off a bridge thing. All I can say is... good luck, and you're new train should be arriving by 2015. HHAHAHAHAHAHA Did you even bother to contact them about your concerns? Sheesh.
Motley: TA462: Oh and just for the record, the guys that are actually buying these things don't shop at Walthers so they can go jump off a bridge (you know what I mean) too. TQ462, there you go again with the jumping off a bridge thing. All I can say is... good luck, and you're new train should be arriving by 2015. HHAHAHAHAHAHA
TA462: Oh and just for the record, the guys that are actually buying these things don't shop at Walthers so they can go jump off a bridge (you know what I mean) too.
Oh and just for the record, the guys that are actually buying these things don't shop at Walthers so they can go jump off a bridge (you know what I mean) too.
TQ462, there you go again with the jumping off a bridge thing.
All I can say is... good luck, and you're new train should be arriving by 2015. HHAHAHAHAHAHA
Did you even bother to contact them about your concerns?
Sheesh.
Michael
CEO- Mile-HI-RailroadPrototype: D&RGW Moffat Line 1989
What's my problem? (You are obviously talking to me, because I started this crazy thread.)
My problem is, I was interested in the train, and was looking forward to getting it. But then I was notified that I had to pay a deposit by next week.
And once again, you guys keep saying it was clearly communicated with people a long time ago? Really? Who exaclty, is this a secret society in Canada? Why is this information not even on their website? Why do I have to place an order, and then find out about the deposit after the fact?
All I can say is $1,500 is a lot of model train money... serious bank.
Motley TA462: Oh and just for the record, the guys that are actually buying these things don't shop at Walthers so they can go jump off a bridge (you know what I mean) too. TQ462, there you go again with the jumping off a bridge thing. All I can say is... good luck, and you're new train should be arriving by 2015. HHAHAHAHAHAHA
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
TA462 Oh and just for the record, the guys that are actually buying these things don't shop at Walthers so they can go jump off a bridge (you know what I mean) too.
tatans The big mystery @ the "Canadian' is the massive interest in this train from the U.S. What is the interest in this foreign train? Nice train, I've been lucky to ride it a few times and the greed of the C.P.R. not to continue passenger service to Canada when they were given untold vast amounts of land in promise of passenger service, we want our land back.
The big mystery @ the "Canadian' is the massive interest in this train from the U.S. What is the interest in this foreign train? Nice train, I've been lucky to ride it a few times and the greed of the C.P.R. not to continue passenger service to Canada when they were given untold vast amounts of land in promise of passenger service, we want our land back.
Service "TO" Canada???? The route of the "Canadian" was entirely WITHIN Canada.
Canadian rail passenger service was taken over by Via some years ago, much as US passenger service was taken over by Amtrak, so what's the big deal? Should the UP return land because it no longer runs the "City of <fill in name>", not to mention MP, Katy, WP, and SP trains.
TA. What's a Walther's? I have five excellent train only stores within a fortyfive minute drive and non of them are called Walthers. Are they related to Walmart?
I think most modelers tend to model a railroad that is home grown, or something that is remembered from their childhood. I remember a good thread on this subject a couple of years back.
This got me to wondering how many of the 2000 units will be sold to Canadians and how many units will be sold elsewhere. If Rapido thinks most of the units will be sold to Canadians and 2000 units is the production benchmark then that explains the number. If the train was an American passenger train icon, the number would possibly be 20,000 as the United States has ten times the population of Canada.
If the majority of the sets are to be sold to Canadians then it becomes even more of a niche item and the risk is larger. It is kind of like making T-shirts for the local club. If at least 30 people don't order a shirt it ain't going to be made, and deposits will be required.
I think most Canadian modelers understand the situation Rapido is in as far as commitment goes and are willing to come to the table cash in hand. That being said if I thought I would lose a wink of sleep over losing the deposit that tells me I can't afford the train and wouldn't order it.
Last year I ripped up a $300.00 tire on my annual railfanning trip into the Rockies. Guess what I'm going back in a couple of weeks for this years trip. I am not staying home in fear of losing another tire.
Rapido guys. Any numbers on how many units are expected to be sold in Canada vs: elsewhere?
Motley I'm not going ballistic at all. Some people have said on here,that Rapido is a stand up company, and has been in complete communication with everybody about the deposit. Apparantly, there was a notice to the US distributers about 6 weeks ago, and it was buried in a long and lengthy newsletter. So not only do the distributers like Walthers even know about it, but none of the consumers or hobby shops who are placing the preorders even know. Walthers didn't even receive a phone call from Rapido explaining the deposits. How do I know this? The owner of DMW called and asked his Walthers rep to see if he knew anything about it. That to me sounds very sketchy, like it was a "oh by the way, we are demanding deposits now, you should have read our newsletter". And just hope that people won't have a problem with it.
I'm not going ballistic at all.
Some people have said on here,that Rapido is a stand up company, and has been in complete communication with everybody about the deposit.
Apparantly, there was a notice to the US distributers about 6 weeks ago, and it was buried in a long and lengthy newsletter. So not only do the distributers like Walthers even know about it, but none of the consumers or hobby shops who are placing the preorders even know. Walthers didn't even receive a phone call from Rapido explaining the deposits. How do I know this? The owner of DMW called and asked his Walthers rep to see if he knew anything about it.
That to me sounds very sketchy, like it was a "oh by the way, we are demanding deposits now, you should have read our newsletter". And just hope that people won't have a problem with it.
I suppose they have the right to change their policies "subject to change without notice" as lots of fine print for various things, legal and practical or common do.
I would say it is VERy sketchy if Walthers, the revered leader in the MRRIng industry has declined to participate in this practice. That should send up red flags, surely.
I DO have to agree though, that you either: pay up and shut up, or don't pay and don't get. The choice, apparently, is yours.
COntact RAPIDO over your frustration. You've made your point here. WE can do nothing but boycott RApido if we are of a mind to but if there are people out there who want the product, adn are willing to take the chance and prepay, and are willing to pay the balance to get this train, they will do so. They apparently have decided this is how they will operate, and expect in the future for Rapido {and perhaps other manufacturers} to do so again.
-G .
Just my thoughts, ideas, opinions and experiences. Others may vary.
HO and N Scale.
After long and careful thought, they have convinced me. I have come to the conclusion that they are right. The aliens did it.
Fastball richhotrain: Just out of curiosity, I have to ask, why is Rapido only going to produce 2,000 trains? Is the train intended to be a collector's item? Here is what Rapido has posted on its web site: The production run will be strictly limited to 2000 trains or less, divided into six consists. Once we have orders for 2000 trains, the order desk will close. So even if we sell out in a month, we will not make more than 2000 sets. Rich My memory is a little fuzzy on this, it's been a long time since I had an economics class, but I seem to remember something called like the economies of scale or some such thing, that the more things are produced the cheaper it becomes. Producing one roof shingle could cost a million dollars but producing a million roof shingles would cost a dollar a piece. A little simplistic I know but you get what I mean. When I shop at Sam's Club the 200 ounce catsup bottle costs less per ounce than the 100 ounce, and even less than the 50 ounce bottle. And isn't it the goal of a company to produce as many of an item as it possibly can to make as much money as it can? Henry Ford did this when he perfected the assembly line. Costs went down as he produced more. So then why is Rapido limiting itself to just 2,000 sets? If 3,000 customers place an order the cost per unit goes down and they should, according to some economic law, make more money. Is there a hole in their business plan? 2,000 sets is a goal that needs to be achieved to produce the thing but if 3,000 sets are sold, then great, look at how much more cash flow I have. And if I sell double my original goal, then all the better. Makes sense to me. -Paul
richhotrain: Just out of curiosity, I have to ask, why is Rapido only going to produce 2,000 trains? Is the train intended to be a collector's item? Here is what Rapido has posted on its web site: The production run will be strictly limited to 2000 trains or less, divided into six consists. Once we have orders for 2000 trains, the order desk will close. So even if we sell out in a month, we will not make more than 2000 sets. Rich
Just out of curiosity, I have to ask, why is Rapido only going to produce 2,000 trains? Is the train intended to be a collector's item?
Here is what Rapido has posted on its web site:
The production run will be strictly limited to 2000 trains or less, divided into six consists. Once we have orders for 2000 trains, the order desk will close. So even if we sell out in a month, we will not make more than 2000 sets.
Rich
My memory is a little fuzzy on this, it's been a long time since I had an economics class, but I seem to remember something called like the economies of scale or some such thing, that the more things are produced the cheaper it becomes. Producing one roof shingle could cost a million dollars but producing a million roof shingles would cost a dollar a piece. A little simplistic I know but you get what I mean. When I shop at Sam's Club the 200 ounce catsup bottle costs less per ounce than the 100 ounce, and even less than the 50 ounce bottle. And isn't it the goal of a company to produce as many of an item as it possibly can to make as much money as it can? Henry Ford did this when he perfected the assembly line. Costs went down as he produced more.
So then why is Rapido limiting itself to just 2,000 sets? If 3,000 customers place an order the cost per unit goes down and they should, according to some economic law, make more money. Is there a hole in their business plan? 2,000 sets is a goal that needs to be achieved to produce the thing but if 3,000 sets are sold, then great, look at how much more cash flow I have. And if I sell double my original goal, then all the better. Makes sense to me.
-Paul
Paul
If you owned the entire supply and distribution chain, and cost of capital (or inventory) is no object, then what you say is true.
However, as we have seen Rapido is a 3 man planning and import shop. They do not own their production facilities, they rent them for a short duration. Components and supplies (motors, gears, wheels, shafts, couplers, electronics, boxes, packaging, paint, etc) to be assembled after the plastic parts are cast must be acquired and drop shipped to the assembly facility. Tooling and masters and paint masks must be commissioned.
For all these reasons, a pretty good idea of how many units are going to be produced is necessary when you negotiate space at the Chinese casting and assembly factory. In the end, batch-procured things like the number of motors or gears or PC boards ordered are going to put a ceiling on a given production run. You just can't hold the production line open waiting for additional motors and gears - the owner of the factory needs to keep the facility working to keep his prices down, and you only paid for a specific time frame for the facility in the 1st place.
Selling 2,000 train sets at over $1K each is a breath-taking million dollar gamble for Rapido. By limiting the production run, Rapido limits their potential losses, but also limits the potential profit from impulse sales at retailers. But really, how many impulse sales of a $1K+ train are likely to be seen at your LHS? Of a Canadian prototype? How many months does it take before the cost of carrying the inventory destroys the profit for the retailer or Rapido (depending on who owns the inventory, usually the retailer)?
Because of the cost of money and inventory, selling out a first run, and then producing a smaller 2nd (and possibly 3rd) at 6 month intervals if demand is high enough, is today's method to maximize sales in the face of limited demand.
In this specific case, Rapido gets the initial orders quicker and in larger quantity than if the door were left open for more future production. Rapido obviously did not believe it would be easy to get the initial 2K orders.
just my understanding of business
Fred W
Paul (ironrooster), I think along your line and I also think motley's fear is legitimate. In his case all there is to do is not order. Not a Pennie will be lost and he will rest in peace.
Heck I just lost $400 on 2 useless MTH SD70ACe, I took the lost and didn't turn the world upside down over a fistful of dollars.
Jack W.
Hi!
Well I've been watching this thing evolve into much ado about nothing, and maybe its time to chill...............
If you don't want the train, then why fret over Rapido's supposed down payment.
And if you want the train, then order it through one of the many hobby suppliers.
And if that doesn't work, wait til they arrive - it may be a longggg time - and then order one.
Orrr, wait til they hit Ebay.
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
To me the issue lies with the misunderstanding that the deposit would be nonrefundable. If it's refundable as they say then it's not that big of a deal. The other issue is the expected delivery date. Given the record so far it may be a long time before you get it. Once again, if they pay you back if it's too long then it shouldn't be the issue.
The real issue is that if it takes too long and people start asking for refunds, I'd bet that Rapido won't have enough cash to cover it. I'm assuming the factory wants 20-25% paid in cash to begin production. Guess where your deposit money will be if you want it back, China!
Just my two cents.
I find this thread very amusing. So much tempest in a teapot.
I have paid in full for items where I was given a pre manufactured discount and then waited a year for delivery. Rapido seems to me to have been upfront about the fact that the product was in development.
Price seems comparable to Walther's limited run passenger trains.
As others have noted, deposits are frequently required for other type products. Frankly, for items with limited appeal and produced to order as it were, this seems normal to me. There seems to have been some failure to advise all their distributors in the beginning about the deposit, but it has been in their ads.
Trust is an important issue, don't buy from companies that you don't think are reputable. Keep in mind that Rapido has risk also - you might not pay the balance when the product comes in then they have to hawk the extra set. And I suspect that companies that produce based on pre orders without deposits get stuck with a lot of product.
But really, in the grand scheme of things this is not worth all the fuss. Don't like deposits or payments up front, then don't order. Just buy off the shelf at your LHS or a train show. And get on with enjoying the trains you have.
Enjoy
richhotrain Motley: Thanks Rich. You made a very good point, I didn't even think of that. Also, when I placed the order with DMW and they verified my credit card, that is a promise to pay. Why is Rapido worried about a lot of people canceling right before delivery? And if people do cancel their orders, is Rapido not confident enough to be able to sell those units? I mean this is such a great product and all.... There is absolutely no risk at all for Rapido to produce this train. Just out of curiosity, I have to ask, why is Rapido only going to produce 2,000 trains? Is the train intended to be a collector's item? Here is what Rapido has posted on its web site: The production run will be strictly limited to 2000 trains or less, divided into six consists. Once we have orders for 2000 trains, the order desk will close. So even if we sell out in a month, we will not make more than 2000 sets. Rich
Motley: Thanks Rich. You made a very good point, I didn't even think of that. Also, when I placed the order with DMW and they verified my credit card, that is a promise to pay. Why is Rapido worried about a lot of people canceling right before delivery? And if people do cancel their orders, is Rapido not confident enough to be able to sell those units? I mean this is such a great product and all.... There is absolutely no risk at all for Rapido to produce this train.
Thanks Rich. You made a very good point, I didn't even think of that.
Also, when I placed the order with DMW and they verified my credit card, that is a promise to pay. Why is Rapido worried about a lot of people canceling right before delivery?
And if people do cancel their orders, is Rapido not confident enough to be able to sell those units? I mean this is such a great product and all....
There is absolutely no risk at all for Rapido to produce this train.
Rather than going ballistic about it...how about contacting them?
http://www.rapidotrains.com/contact.html
I must ask once again, where in the world on Rapido's website does it state the deposit must be made or your order is canceled?
Hey Rapido, if you're listeing, maybe you should update your website with this information, so that you don't get any "complainers" like me.
All of the twists and turns that this thread has taken amuse me.
Many of the replies have totally lost sight of Motley's sole comment on the subject after posting the verbatim email message from his LHS and that comment was "Are you serious, like I'm willing to bet on a NON-REFUNDABLE $320 that Rapido will actually ship this quality product to me, by when...., who knows? You have got to be joking, apparently Walthers agrees with me".
He didn't question Rapido's integrity just their ultimate timetable for delivery and their marketing strategy.
Some of the replies range from a panic stricken "go jump off a bridge" remark to a guy paying for a new roof in advance and considering that a normal business practice to a wannabee forum administrator who thinks that no forum member should dare reply to this thread, stirring up a hoohaw, unless the person replying actually plans to pre-order the product and cough up the deposit.
Last time I checked, it is a forum and members are all invited to participate. No?
Alton Junction
As to the refund, which was one of my concerns. How long do I wait until it's deemed the product is not being produced or delivered, that I can say or demand a refund?
So by Dec. 2012 if it's not ready to be shipped to people, they are sending out refunds to everybody? Or is it 2013, 2014.
dknelson This entire discussion is making me begin to be almost nervous that Tyco will never deliver my Pennsylvania Railroad 2-10-4 that they advertised in 1966. Dave Nelson
This entire discussion is making me begin to be almost nervous that Tyco will never deliver my Pennsylvania Railroad 2-10-4 that they advertised in 1966.
Dave Nelson
Yours and Scarpia's say it very well. No matter how it wuz, it ain't that way now. If ya wants tuh play, yuh gotta pay. It could be a lot worse...he might want 80%.
Oh, and for the Selkirk I expect by the first week in September (they're in transit now), I had to wait three years, and Uncle Dave had my reserve of USD$85 all this time.
Tsk....no one ever delivers in this hobby.
Crandell
Well, with all due respect to THE CANADIAN, it's a train I'm not really interested in, but the pre-production examples I saw at the Sacramento show were extremely impressive. Okay, there were a few 'glitches' in details on the F units, but this was also PRE-PRODUCTION. But the cars were absolutely beautiful--I hung around the table eyeing the samples for quite a while. Very impressed.
As to the deposit--well, Rapido has stated in the thread that the deposit is totally refundable, so personally, I don't see the big deal here. I can't remember how many times in my profession that I've had to make a deposit to a music publisher to re-print a copy of some relatively 'obscure' classical music that has gone 'out of print'. And generally these publishers are in Europe, which adds a considerable 'buck to the bang', so to speak. But I want, and often NEED the music, so the Check's In The Mail and I wait patiently (or not) until the presses get warmed up and the music arrives. And usually at a Premium price.
So, if I really wanted THE CANADIAN and the only way I could get that very iconic train was to shell out a deposit (refundable, BTW), I'd probably do so without any hesitation. To my way of thinking, it's just present-day economics. The world just isn't in the post WWII financial 'glow' anymore, and business practices have to be adjusted accordingly.
A certain company has informed me that an HO scale model of the pre-1948 Rio Grande PROSPECTOR is in the 'planning' stage. Now there's a train I could REALLY use. And I'll probably be required to pay a deposit as time goes from 'planning' to 'pre-production'. And I can tell you that the 5-car PROSPECTOR will probably end up costing me about the same as the 10-car CANADIAN. But it's an iconic One Of A Kind train--like THE CANADIAN--(and I'll bet that more people are interested in THE CANADIAN than they would be THE PROSPECTOR) so I'll shell out the sheckels to get it.
Like it or not, financially it's the way the world seem to work these days. Maybe things will turn around for the better in the future. I certainly hope so.
But as I said, IMO at least, what I saw of THE CANADIAN seems certainly worth the money. AND the wait.
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
Home improvement is a totally different then retail products. We are talking about a retail product that is sold to the consumer.
And TA462, you need to cool your jets buddy. And I don't see anything wrong with people posting in this thread that is not purchasing the train or not. That is not the issue here.
The issue is paying a deposit on a product the may or may not be ever delivered, and you may not get your deposit back. I'm not wishing bad luck on anyone.
I must ask once again, where in the world on Rapido's website does it state the deposit must be made or your order is canceled? People keep saying it was a known from the beginning a long time ago. If I would have been aware of this, I would have never even thought about placing the order.
galaxy My area may be different than others by local, state laws.
My area may be different than others by local, state laws.
Exactly,
Making a long, detailed discussion of terms in your area becomes less than useful for this discussion.
(For your information, I've paid an advance on two other roofs in the past 4 years, for replacement windows, and again this summer for a replacement sill on our 200 year old home here in NH. Guess we just trust our folks more here).
Which brings me back to my point, that this is not an unusual business practice.
If you're worried about fly-by-night operations, than you're working with the wrong companies. Rapido certainly is not a fly-by-night company.
I'm trying to model 1956, not live in it.
Well...the point should be taken really.
Why are these people..who really do not want to buy these things getting involved and stirring up a hoohaw?
Try to imagine the possibility that some of us like what we see and want to buy it and leave it at that...simples....