Like many other smaller businesses, Rapido is feeling the effects of the credit crunch we are in. It has become nearly impossible to obtain project funding from the banks these days and Chinese manufacturers like to see cash, as they have lost confidence in the US $´s stability.
Asking for affirmative pre-orders accompanied by a deposit is an unusual thing for consumer products, but not that uncommon in other industries. If we want those small, innovative and creative companies to stay in business, we will have to accept the fact that we have to pay deposits on our pre-orders.
I don´t see anything wrong or sinister in what Rapido is asking for, but I do question some of the retailers behavior.
The price sounds steep, but I suspect the person who rather dismissed it as a "train set" likely did not appreciate just what it includes. The 10 cars contain duplicate examples of coaches and the two types of sleepers, there are two DCC/sound equipped A-units, together with a dummy B-unit. This will be a train that conveys the appearance of CPR's flagship. Once you break the price down into the various units it is close to other premium high quality offerings, and I believe in this case it will look even better in real life than in advertising. Even if deliveries fall back, this promises to be a train worth waiting for.
A bigger problem for some of us is that it may overwhelm our layouts, something like11 actual feet long. I am surprised that nobody has questioned why Rapido chose to offer it only as a complete train rather than issue car by car as happened for the Super Continental. But that is their decision.
My other thought is financial. While some may be worried about putting a substantial deposit up front, does this also not protect us somewhat against possible price increases? Both sides have made a commitment.
John
You either trust the man or you don't. That's really the crux of the matter. The amount of deposit is entirely contributory to the eventual delivery of the product if you ever expressed your intent to buy one. So, I would ask those who are balking, would you ever have been in a position to pay more than four times what he is asking you for today? If so, then get your priorities straight. If you admit that you probabably would not, then it is entirely moot. Now Jason is asking people to put their money where their mouths were when they first held up their hands.
Crandell
When I placed my preorder with DMW about a couple of months ago, I was told that the delivery date was Nov 2011. Now Rapido is saying end of 2012.
Red flags everywhere.
Even if they finally deliver a product, what if something is wrong with the manufacturing. We all know at this point, that quality control is almost non existent in China.
If a big company like Athearn can't prevent issues like there recent release of the SD70Aces, with the way the speaker was constructed during assembly.
My days of preorders are over. If it's not in my LHS, and I can't walk out with it after paying for it, then I guess I'll pass.
All I can say is good luck to those who have paid the deposits. At this point I just don't trust that they will deliver the product.
Michael
CEO- Mile-HI-RailroadPrototype: D&RGW Moffat Line 1989
Motley When I placed my preorder with DMW about a couple of months ago, I was told that the delivery date was Nov 2011. Now Rapido is saying end of 2012. Red flags everywhere. Even if they finally deliver a product, what if something is wrong with the manufacturing. We all know at this point, that quality control is almost non existent in China. If a big company like Athearn can't prevent issues like there recent release of the SD70Aces, with the way the speaker was constructed during assembly. My days of preorders are over. If it's not in my LHS, and I can't walk out with it after paying for it, then I guess I'll pass. All I can say is good luck to those who have paid the deposits. At this point I just don't trust that they will deliver the product.
Michael, in spite of all that has transpired in this thread, I continue to agree with you.
For those who don't agree, they should consider that when you first placed your order with DMW, nothing was said about a pre-order deposit. And, DMW didn't know about the pre-order deposit because Rapido "forgot" to tell its U.S. distributors. Also, when you consider the tenor of the letter which the OP received from DMW, what would you think. DMW all but told the OP to consider cancelling the order. Rapido should have done the right thing and honored the pre-orders made without deposits since it was Rapido's oversight not to indicate to DMW that they were requiring pre-order deposits.
Rich
Alton Junction
Thanks Rich. You made a very good point, I didn't even think of that.
Also, when I placed the order with DMW and they verified my credit card, that is a promise to pay. Why is Rapido worried about a lot of people canceling right before delivery?
And if people do cancel their orders, is Rapido not confident enough to be able to sell those units? I mean this is such a great product and all....
There is absolutely no risk at all for Rapido to produce this train.
Motley Thanks Rich. You made a very good point, I didn't even think of that. Also, when I placed the order with DMW and they verified my credit card, that is a promise to pay. Why is Rapido worried about a lot of people canceling right before delivery? And if people do cancel their orders, is Rapido not confident enough to be able to sell those units? I mean this is such a great product and all.... There is absolutely no risk at all for Rapido to produce this train.
Just out of curiosity, I have to ask, why is Rapido only going to produce 2,000 trains? Is the train intended to be a collector's item?
Here is what Rapido has posted on its web site:
The production run will be strictly limited to 2000 trains or less, divided into six consists. Once we have orders for 2000 trains, the order desk will close. So even if we sell out in a month, we will not make more than 2000 sets.
Perhaps I should have put here WHAT I put in Selector's {Crandell's} BLI thread, then many of you may understand WHY I feel as I do:
I decided to take a chace on a preorder with no money down, when it came in, I declined the order as my financial situation had changed greatly. They offered me a "3-pay lay away" program and I took it for the 4 passenger cars I pre ordered. All three payments have been charged to my credit card, and 2 have been paid off. The third auto-billed the 15th of this month. Now I cannot get a straight answer from them as to WHEN my order will be shipped, IF it has been shipped, all I get is "our computer crashed, I have to look it up manually and will call you back" I will call again tomorrow and see, if they can't tell it has shipped and when and with a tracking number, I will DEMAND they refund my credit card the money back!!! In Writing if I have to. {Con-Cor}
I will never pre-order again. Thank you very much. Money down or not.
-G .
Just my thoughts, ideas, opinions and experiences. Others may vary.
HO and N Scale.
After long and careful thought, they have convinced me. I have come to the conclusion that they are right. The aliens did it.
Huh. I just had to pay half up front for a roof job on my home, the other half when the job's complete. Seems to me that just 25% down up front is a deal. But that's real life for you, and real business practices.
Worrying about your "lost" deposit so far in advance is absurd. A complaint after the fact is legitimate, teeth gnashing months or years in advance borders on ridiculous. To the OP, I understand your concerns, and why you felt the need to post, but it does seem a simple yes or no decision.
Rapido does great work in the hobby. Either pay the deposit, and get a great set (one that will be worth a ton more down the road if you decide to sell it), or sit down.
Mayhaps folks should spend their time crafting some new models, instead of bellyachin' about a product and business process that through their own decisions, doesn't affect them in any way.
I'm trying to model 1956, not live in it.
This entire discussion is making me begin to be almost nervous that Tyco will never deliver my Pennsylvania Railroad 2-10-4 that they advertised in 1966.
Dave Nelson
dknelson This entire discussion is making me begin to be almost nervous that Tyco will never deliver my Pennsylvania Railroad 2-10-4 that they advertised in 1966. Dave Nelson
Dave,
That is your fault. You were cautioned back then not to make that 75% deposit.
But, relax, you will eventually receive your order.
Wow. Just. Wow.
All this hoohaw over some dang simple request of a deposit....there are some boutique amplifier builders that do the same thing as these guys..and no one squawks about it like here.
And what is it about people who are not interested in this particular model getting into this thread to heat it up? You not buying...great..more for the ones who do want it...sheeesh.
A certain fellow who used to come on this forum had said sometime ago that pre-orders were going to be the name of the game for many manufacturers...just deal with it.
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
Scarpia Huh. I just had to pay half up front for a roof job on my home, the other half when the job's complete. Seems to me that just 25% down up front is a deal. But that's real life for you, and real business practices.
According the Home Builders and Remodeling Guild here and the top {and slightly more expensive} Roofing contractor around here One should NEVER pay anything up front until work is started. All types of shingles should be readily available on credit to the roofer if they offer them.
This ALSO PREVETNS "fly by night" rip-off contractor absconding with your money and never showing to do a job.
Even bank financing will rarely pay up front costs before a job is started, once started, they will have to pay out 25%, 50% when half the job is done and the balance when job is finished. Most housing roofs around here can be done in one or two days. SO paying 25% when the start on day one is fine, and 1/2 should be done {unless rain sets in} by end of dayone, then the other half finished day two so your money and the job are parting and completed almost simultaneously.
The only exception is if you ask for special order items such as custom fit kitchen cabinets, and then you only pay a nomimal deposit of 10% of cabinet costs only, NOT for labor and other materials.
Any GOOD contractor worth doing the job should have credit out the wazzoo they can buy supplies for your job on when they start the job so your money should NOT be needed BEFORE starting the job. If they don't pay off creditors when they get teh balance of the job, there is a problem with that contractor and should not be hired..
For example: we had the old gray colored plastic plumbing that cracks and splits with age and ours did so. The plumber's estimate was $3200.00 to replace ALL our plumbing with the new PEX plumbing. Never charged a cent till the job was half done, then wanted half payment, balance was when job was complete with no leaks.
For example: we had our roof done ten years ago. PAid NOTHING UP FRONT, and only PAID when job was COMPLETED! {only took one day for 1000 sq ft.}
My area may be different than others by local, state laws.
TA462 If you guys don'y want it, can't afford it or are just plain jealous that a company like Rapido is looking after us Canadian guys then you go can go jump off a bridge. I can't really say what I want to say so I said jump off a bridge. Why is it that it's always the same guys crying like a bunch of babies no matter what the topic is. You guys are really getting old. I'm really surprised that a fine site like this one allows some of you guys to spew your opinion about everything, even though it doesn't concern you or you don't have any experience on the topic. You guys have no intention of buying one so just SHUT UP. None of you could even build one to the same standard as Rapido so don't even start with that crap. I for one am very happy to help Rapido by paying a deposit to build something I want. The rest of you guys go have fun playing with your crap, low quality toy trains on your little 4x8 layouts and keep dreaming about the guys that actually buy this stuff that company's like Rapido build in low quantities for us collectors and higher end modellers.
If you guys don'y want it, can't afford it or are just plain jealous that a company like Rapido is looking after us Canadian guys then you go can go jump off a bridge. I can't really say what I want to say so I said jump off a bridge. Why is it that it's always the same guys crying like a bunch of babies no matter what the topic is. You guys are really getting old. I'm really surprised that a fine site like this one allows some of you guys to spew your opinion about everything, even though it doesn't concern you or you don't have any experience on the topic. You guys have no intention of buying one so just SHUT UP. None of you could even build one to the same standard as Rapido so don't even start with that crap. I for one am very happy to help Rapido by paying a deposit to build something I want. The rest of you guys go have fun playing with your crap, low quality toy trains on your little 4x8 layouts and keep dreaming about the guys that actually buy this stuff that company's like Rapido build in low quantities for us collectors and higher end modellers.
Wow, TA! Feel free to disagree but there's no reason to get demeaning and/or turn this conversation into some sort of "border war".
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Well...the point should be taken really.
Why are these people..who really do not want to buy these things getting involved and stirring up a hoohaw?
Try to imagine the possibility that some of us like what we see and want to buy it and leave it at that...simples....
galaxy My area may be different than others by local, state laws.
Exactly,
Making a long, detailed discussion of terms in your area becomes less than useful for this discussion.
(For your information, I've paid an advance on two other roofs in the past 4 years, for replacement windows, and again this summer for a replacement sill on our 200 year old home here in NH. Guess we just trust our folks more here).
Which brings me back to my point, that this is not an unusual business practice.
If you're worried about fly-by-night operations, than you're working with the wrong companies. Rapido certainly is not a fly-by-night company.
Home improvement is a totally different then retail products. We are talking about a retail product that is sold to the consumer.
And TA462, you need to cool your jets buddy. And I don't see anything wrong with people posting in this thread that is not purchasing the train or not. That is not the issue here.
The issue is paying a deposit on a product the may or may not be ever delivered, and you may not get your deposit back. I'm not wishing bad luck on anyone.
I must ask once again, where in the world on Rapido's website does it state the deposit must be made or your order is canceled? People keep saying it was a known from the beginning a long time ago. If I would have been aware of this, I would have never even thought about placing the order.
Well, with all due respect to THE CANADIAN, it's a train I'm not really interested in, but the pre-production examples I saw at the Sacramento show were extremely impressive. Okay, there were a few 'glitches' in details on the F units, but this was also PRE-PRODUCTION. But the cars were absolutely beautiful--I hung around the table eyeing the samples for quite a while. Very impressed.
As to the deposit--well, Rapido has stated in the thread that the deposit is totally refundable, so personally, I don't see the big deal here. I can't remember how many times in my profession that I've had to make a deposit to a music publisher to re-print a copy of some relatively 'obscure' classical music that has gone 'out of print'. And generally these publishers are in Europe, which adds a considerable 'buck to the bang', so to speak. But I want, and often NEED the music, so the Check's In The Mail and I wait patiently (or not) until the presses get warmed up and the music arrives. And usually at a Premium price.
So, if I really wanted THE CANADIAN and the only way I could get that very iconic train was to shell out a deposit (refundable, BTW), I'd probably do so without any hesitation. To my way of thinking, it's just present-day economics. The world just isn't in the post WWII financial 'glow' anymore, and business practices have to be adjusted accordingly.
A certain company has informed me that an HO scale model of the pre-1948 Rio Grande PROSPECTOR is in the 'planning' stage. Now there's a train I could REALLY use. And I'll probably be required to pay a deposit as time goes from 'planning' to 'pre-production'. And I can tell you that the 5-car PROSPECTOR will probably end up costing me about the same as the 10-car CANADIAN. But it's an iconic One Of A Kind train--like THE CANADIAN--(and I'll bet that more people are interested in THE CANADIAN than they would be THE PROSPECTOR) so I'll shell out the sheckels to get it.
Like it or not, financially it's the way the world seem to work these days. Maybe things will turn around for the better in the future. I certainly hope so.
But as I said, IMO at least, what I saw of THE CANADIAN seems certainly worth the money. AND the wait.
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
Yours and Scarpia's say it very well. No matter how it wuz, it ain't that way now. If ya wants tuh play, yuh gotta pay. It could be a lot worse...he might want 80%.
Oh, and for the Selkirk I expect by the first week in September (they're in transit now), I had to wait three years, and Uncle Dave had my reserve of USD$85 all this time.
Tsk....no one ever delivers in this hobby.
As to the refund, which was one of my concerns. How long do I wait until it's deemed the product is not being produced or delivered, that I can say or demand a refund?
So by Dec. 2012 if it's not ready to be shipped to people, they are sending out refunds to everybody? Or is it 2013, 2014.
All of the twists and turns that this thread has taken amuse me.
Many of the replies have totally lost sight of Motley's sole comment on the subject after posting the verbatim email message from his LHS and that comment was "Are you serious, like I'm willing to bet on a NON-REFUNDABLE $320 that Rapido will actually ship this quality product to me, by when...., who knows? You have got to be joking, apparently Walthers agrees with me".
He didn't question Rapido's integrity just their ultimate timetable for delivery and their marketing strategy.
Some of the replies range from a panic stricken "go jump off a bridge" remark to a guy paying for a new roof in advance and considering that a normal business practice to a wannabee forum administrator who thinks that no forum member should dare reply to this thread, stirring up a hoohaw, unless the person replying actually plans to pre-order the product and cough up the deposit.
Last time I checked, it is a forum and members are all invited to participate. No?
I must ask once again, where in the world on Rapido's website does it state the deposit must be made or your order is canceled?
Hey Rapido, if you're listeing, maybe you should update your website with this information, so that you don't get any "complainers" like me.
Rather than going ballistic about it...how about contacting them?
http://www.rapidotrains.com/contact.html
richhotrain Motley: Thanks Rich. You made a very good point, I didn't even think of that. Also, when I placed the order with DMW and they verified my credit card, that is a promise to pay. Why is Rapido worried about a lot of people canceling right before delivery? And if people do cancel their orders, is Rapido not confident enough to be able to sell those units? I mean this is such a great product and all.... There is absolutely no risk at all for Rapido to produce this train. Just out of curiosity, I have to ask, why is Rapido only going to produce 2,000 trains? Is the train intended to be a collector's item? Here is what Rapido has posted on its web site: The production run will be strictly limited to 2000 trains or less, divided into six consists. Once we have orders for 2000 trains, the order desk will close. So even if we sell out in a month, we will not make more than 2000 sets. Rich
Motley: Thanks Rich. You made a very good point, I didn't even think of that. Also, when I placed the order with DMW and they verified my credit card, that is a promise to pay. Why is Rapido worried about a lot of people canceling right before delivery? And if people do cancel their orders, is Rapido not confident enough to be able to sell those units? I mean this is such a great product and all.... There is absolutely no risk at all for Rapido to produce this train.
My memory is a little fuzzy on this, it's been a long time since I had an economics class, but I seem to remember something called like the economies of scale or some such thing, that the more things are produced the cheaper it becomes. Producing one roof shingle could cost a million dollars but producing a million roof shingles would cost a dollar a piece. A little simplistic I know but you get what I mean. When I shop at Sam's Club the 200 ounce catsup bottle costs less per ounce than the 100 ounce, and even less than the 50 ounce bottle. And isn't it the goal of a company to produce as many of an item as it possibly can to make as much money as it can? Henry Ford did this when he perfected the assembly line. Costs went down as he produced more.
So then why is Rapido limiting itself to just 2,000 sets? If 3,000 customers place an order the cost per unit goes down and they should, according to some economic law, make more money. Is there a hole in their business plan? 2,000 sets is a goal that needs to be achieved to produce the thing but if 3,000 sets are sold, then great, look at how much more cash flow I have. And if I sell double my original goal, then all the better. Makes sense to me.
-Paul
I'm not going ballistic at all.
Some people have said on here,that Rapido is a stand up company, and has been in complete communication with everybody about the deposit.
Apparantly, there was a notice to the US distributers about 6 weeks ago, and it was buried in a long and lengthy newsletter. So not only do the distributers like Walthers even know about it, but none of the consumers or hobby shops who are placing the preorders even know. Walthers didn't even receive a phone call from Rapido explaining the deposits. How do I know this? The owner of DMW called and asked his Walthers rep to see if he knew anything about it.
That to me sounds very sketchy, like it was a "oh by the way, we are demanding deposits now, you should have read our newsletter". And just hope that people won't have a problem with it.
I find this thread very amusing. So much tempest in a teapot.
I have paid in full for items where I was given a pre manufactured discount and then waited a year for delivery. Rapido seems to me to have been upfront about the fact that the product was in development.
Price seems comparable to Walther's limited run passenger trains.
As others have noted, deposits are frequently required for other type products. Frankly, for items with limited appeal and produced to order as it were, this seems normal to me. There seems to have been some failure to advise all their distributors in the beginning about the deposit, but it has been in their ads.
Trust is an important issue, don't buy from companies that you don't think are reputable. Keep in mind that Rapido has risk also - you might not pay the balance when the product comes in then they have to hawk the extra set. And I suspect that companies that produce based on pre orders without deposits get stuck with a lot of product.
But really, in the grand scheme of things this is not worth all the fuss. Don't like deposits or payments up front, then don't order. Just buy off the shelf at your LHS or a train show. And get on with enjoying the trains you have.
Enjoy
Paul
To me the issue lies with the misunderstanding that the deposit would be nonrefundable. If it's refundable as they say then it's not that big of a deal. The other issue is the expected delivery date. Given the record so far it may be a long time before you get it. Once again, if they pay you back if it's too long then it shouldn't be the issue.
The real issue is that if it takes too long and people start asking for refunds, I'd bet that Rapido won't have enough cash to cover it. I'm assuming the factory wants 20-25% paid in cash to begin production. Guess where your deposit money will be if you want it back, China!
Just my two cents.
Hi!
Well I've been watching this thing evolve into much ado about nothing, and maybe its time to chill...............
If you don't want the train, then why fret over Rapido's supposed down payment.
And if you want the train, then order it through one of the many hobby suppliers.
And if that doesn't work, wait til they arrive - it may be a longggg time - and then order one.
Orrr, wait til they hit Ebay.
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
Paul (ironrooster), I think along your line and I also think motley's fear is legitimate. In his case all there is to do is not order. Not a Pennie will be lost and he will rest in peace.
Heck I just lost $400 on 2 useless MTH SD70ACe, I took the lost and didn't turn the world upside down over a fistful of dollars.
Jack W.