jwhitten Frankly, I'm surprised Model Railroading hasn't (de)evolved into a contact sport... John
Frankly, I'm surprised Model Railroading hasn't (de)evolved into a contact sport...
John
You obviously have not been to a large crowded train show.
I once argued with a person over what material MY modules that I built were made from. This went on for about 20 minutes. He finally plunked an elbow onto one of them and dented the foam real deep. I then thanked him for wrecking it and suggested he have a few more beers before attending the next time. The crater with the pink showing through proved it was foam and not plywood. The next show had a crashed HO scale (?) flying saucer stuck into the crater. That's as prototypical as I wanted to get.
Pete
I pray every day I break even, Cause I can really use the money!
I started with nothing and still have most of it left!
Paul3 Being intimidated by quality work is a mark against the observer, not against the work.
Being intimidated by quality work is a mark against the observer, not against the work.
Great response.
Rob Spangler
Anyone who sees a "perfect" model railroad and throws their hands up in despair should quit the hobby at once. This hobby is not meant for you. You will only become frustrated by your insecurities. Leave this hobby now and go find something else that can satisfy you or you will become bitter and miserable.
Anyone who sees a "perfect" model railroad and says, "That's what I want to do! How can I learn to do that?" is someone who will make this a life-long hobby. This is a hobby where striving for "perfection" leads to a life-long hobby goal of trying your best and improving your skills. This chase for "perfection" is itself part of the "fun" of the hobby, and figuring out a solution or finding that nugget of information or completing that hard-to-build model can lead to a satisfied feeling that can last for years...which makes for a happy hobbiest.
Paul A. Cutler III
Put up your dukes....
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
While I mostly follow a particular railroad, I am most interested in getting a layout up and running. To that end I will use as much RTR as possible to become operational. For each building activity, I always do the best job that I can on each project in a reasonable time frame - always keeping in mind the overall goal. While I am interested in being reasonably accurate to the prototype, I also include stuff that I like even if not exactly correct, so you'll see billboard reefers on my 50's layout. I also have some phantasy road names from the NMRA's Heritage and Living Legends series. Once I'm operational I'll work on the kits I have accumulated over the years, scenery, and do some scratch building.
While some people love a competitive hobby, I do not. My modeling pleases me. Which is not to say I'm stagnant, I always look to improve my skills. But I'm not really interested in competing with others or going through a certification program.
I have found the happy middle ground that pleases me. My layout will be my interpretation of the Maryland and Pennsylvania Railroad - yours may differ. But in the end it doesn't matter if you're having fun and not hurting others.
Enjoy
Paul
All on the same layout I have Erie Lackawanna passenger trains, Atlantic Coast line freight, Amtrak Passenger, Delaware and Hudson Freight, PRR steam, NYC subway, Thomas the Tank Engine, and Hogwart's Express.
I am probably not the best person to discuss prototypical perfection.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
There really should not be this urge to make everyone do things the same way you do...it'd be incredibly boring if that happened.
My layout I build to mine own expectations..which is high to begin with..that is what I strive FOR. Heaven forfend someone do the exact same dang thing if they do not feel like it...
Catt,
How 'bout this?...
"Those that (desire and) can should (have the freedom to do so); Those that can't should at least (give it a) try". And neither party should criticize the other openly for their approach to the hobby.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
While I strive for a fair amount of detail and accuracy in my modeling -
I also want to have an Operarting Layout and have twice monthly OPs Session - this is the only reason I built the layout in the first place.
If I spend all my time getting everything super accurate I won't have time for OPERATIONS!
And with building a Club sized home layout by myself - scenery sort of takes a backseat as does getting all of the buildings scratch built or kitbashed (as I am doing a Prototypical design layout)
So super detail will come - when I have nothing better to do - which might be a while!
BUT - At least I have an OPERATING layout and can then detail it as I get time - instead of trying to super build everything and NEVER have an OPERATING Layout as so many seem to have (or not have)!
And as for OPs - when I put out the e-mail that I am having an OPs Session - I can get over 30 replys wanting to come run the layout - so Scenery and Super Detail building and rolling stock- and unfortunately have to turn some away!
MUST NOT MEAN THAT MUCH to so many modelers as they would much rather have an OPERATING Session instead of looking at a bunch of super detailed stuff that doesn't make the trains run one bit better!
BOB H - Clarion, PA
My two cents worth for today,
Those than can should- Those that can't should atleast try.
Just remember it's Your hobby not mine,if your happy who gives a rip if Joe Expert likes it.
Thanks for your comments, Carl. Very good points and worth noting.
I agree with and am similar to Carl in my approach to this hobby of ours. I push myself for prototype accuracy, find enjoyment in learning about the history of the prototype (in my case, the NYC), and also enjoy helping others by sharing what I've learned in my short time in the hobby so far. Thankfully, I have run across VERY few (if any) MRRers that would fall into the category as those described by the OP.
I'm in this hobby for enjoyment and learning and realize that I will NEVER achieve "perfection" on my own layout; nor do I expect it on other's layouts. I push myself to be the best I can be - without pushing that demand onto others around me. And, although I may not choose to model like someone else because I don't particularly care for their modeling "style", choice of scale, or techniques, I can still learn from them and glean from their experience.
Actually, I find that I'm so busy with learning about the New York Central - how it operated, what it owned, what important details give a layout that "NYC look", etc. - I have little to no time nor concern for criticizing others about their layouts. Besides, what good will that do. They can find plenty of things to criticize about my own layout. LOL!
Why does this topic continue to rear it's ugly head? There will always be a chasm between the prototype modelers, the freelancers and those in between.
There are:
A. Model Railroaders
B. Railroad Modelers (including prototype modeling)
C. Freelancers
D. Toy Train enthusiasts
Almost all of us that socialize here are in the A category. We have model trains, are looking to build a layout, have a layout or belong to a club with a layout. We enjoy running trains, structured as in operating sessions or otherwise.
Many people who love trains and build layouts and buy model trains are in the C and D category. They are happy keeping things light and simple. Prototypical accuracy is not their main concern.
People in the B category are modeling from a retrospective, historical point of view; they are fascinated by the history of the railroad, the purpose of the motive power, rolling stock and structures. The accuracy of the model lends itself to learning the history of its prototype. They enjoy the challenge of creating a model that closely resembles the real thing. Brass models are aimed at this group. Companies such as Details West and Custom Finishing develop products for this type of modeler. There are prototype modeling meets held every year all over the U.S. (and other countries). Clinics are held to share ideas and to educate. Knowledge is as valuable a tool as an Xacto knife for this group.
Some of us are in between; we enjoy prototype modeling but also enjoy simply opening a box, placing the loco or cars on the track and run down the line!
You can have fun if you are A, B, C, or D types; do what makes you happy. But know this, the foundation of this hobby is to model the prototype; otherwise this would be the toy train hobby. How many of your non- hobby friends think you are silly to "play with trains"? Millions of dollars are invested each year by the manufacturers, to build quality models and accessories. Millions of dollars of revenue are generated each year by folks who are willing to spend $100.00 on a loco and $150.00 on paint, decals, and details parts to achieve satisfaction. They are also appreciative of the $300+ model that is accurately constructed, painted and detailed, as well as outfitted with electronics to enhance the realism.
On the other hand, many manufacturers sell products for the beginners and the uninitiated because there is a market for it. Over the years toy trains have been packaged as model trains. Just because is says HO scale on the box does not make it a "model". Browse Ebay and you'll see what I mean.
Many models of the past were made with the best technology available at the time. Their products are harshly criticized by the folks who were not around before 1980. Skilled modelers can convert some of these older items into very nice modern models.
Unfortunately, we have folks in each category that put down folks that don't share their philosophy. In my opinion, the term "Rivet Counters" is derogatory; aimed at the "Ivory Tower" group that criticize the work and efforts of the casual modeler or the beginner. Many are turned off by this attitude and rightfully so, Prototype modelers should always encourage and be respectful of the hard work someone put into a project. This attitude alienates and intimidates those who may have considered moving toward a higher level of modeling, only to become frustrated and disgusted.
But what is most disturbing are the folks who think having "the best" is bad. I believe the cause is based on several factors; higher pricing, models to fragile to handle, too complicated to operate, etc.I also believe that some people's self-esteem is threaten by those who can achieve the highest levels in anything and this hobby is no exception. Instead of seeing the challenge, they make negative comments as if striving to do the best is a bad thing. Like the comment made earlier regarding grades, this negativity is poison. It truly represents the dark side of the human condition.
The rules of this hobby are simple:
1. Have fun
2. Refer to number Rule 1.
Here are the unwritten rules we should all follow:
3. Encourage others that enjoy the hobby.
4. Give constructive criticism NOT destructive criticism.
5. Share your experiences so others can benefit.
6. Find others that enjoy the hobby as you do; work and have fun together help each other build a layout, paint a model, etc. if you read MR, you will find it takes a village to build a layout.
Recommendations:
If you model a specific railroad, learn its history; there are many books available as well as Internet articles. More awareness leads to better modeling.
Join the historical society of your favorite RR or Fallen Flag (look it up if you don't know this is).
Observe the prototype; learn how they operate; watch (from a safe non-threatening distance) switching maneuvers and yard operations. If possible talk to engineers, brakeman, yardmasters, etc.
Understand railroad modeling is 3 dimensional art. Appreciate the efforts of ALL who pickup a paint brush, glue, and tools and turn a few scraps of metal, wood, or plastic into magic.
I jump off the rant rail now
Carl in Florida - - - - - - - - - - We need an HO Amtrak SDP40F and GE U36B oh wait- We GOT THEM!
Before this thread dies, let me say that there are three important variables that modelers have to take into consideration:
1) Hand - eye coordination and dexterity: some modelers are clumsier than others (such as myself).
2) Tools and equipment: you have to have the right tools and equipment and take safety precautions when building and painting models. (I have no designated work area, no airbrush, and no place to spray paint models).
3) Money: all the equipment, tools, parts, and materials can get expensive, so budget and resources are important factors in being able to produce contest-quality models. (Locomotives are my favourite aspect of model railroading, and as of late I've been buying factory painted models and just adding a few detail parts to make them look a little more prototypical).
Any resemblance to perfection in my endeavors is purely coincidental. I only try to approach it when laying trackwork - secure in the knowledge that I may approach, but will never attain.
What, me worry?
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
chochowillie A newcomer or a old returning enthusist of the hobby can be seriously put off but the Perfect crowd. Ok Ok, That's your thing but honestly. All that Perfection STUFF makes newbies just throw up their hands in dispair and say I think I won't bother if this is the way thing are in this hobby.
A newcomer or a old returning enthusist of the hobby can be seriously put off but the Perfect crowd. Ok Ok, That's your thing but honestly. All that Perfection STUFF makes newbies just throw up their hands in dispair and say I think I won't bother if this is the way thing are in this hobby.
When I returned to the hobby and via this site 5 years ago, that is what I thought as a re-newed newbie. That everyone's work was masterpieces! ANd I would never live up to it!
Then one day when my father showed an interest in playing with my old childhod/early teen O-O/27 layout I dug out some of the stuff I had packed away. I looked at some of attempts and mused out loud, "boy I didn't do a very a good job, did I" {at scratchbuilding buildings and structures}. My father said "well you have got to remember your abilities and what you had to work with at the time".
That kinda stuck with me. I was new again to stuff. SO it's my railroad and I'll run what I wanna! I'll paint my buildings with what colors and paint I wanna.
I can do certain things the "acceptable way" but others I shall DO what I wanna!
-G .
Just my thoughts, ideas, opinions and experiences. Others may vary.
HO and N Scale.
After long and careful thought, they have convinced me. I have come to the conclusion that they are right. The aliens did it.
I am always in search of excellence, but I have yet to find it
I am in this hobby to please no one else but me, but that does not mean I am not open to justified critique. After all, learning never stops.
chochowillie One of the things I note in particular is the old issue of the "Everything MUST be perfect crowd" AKA Model RR Craftsman compared to the "Good Enough" crowd. In my not so humble opinion the whole Perfection is the only standard does a serious disservice to the hobby in general.
One of the things I note in particular is the old issue of the "Everything MUST be perfect crowd" AKA Model RR Craftsman compared to the "Good Enough" crowd.
In my not so humble opinion the whole Perfection is the only standard does a serious disservice to the hobby in general.
I'm a prototype modeler and always strive to improve and raise my standards. That's MY business and I don't expect anybody else to comply. I'm not lowering my standards because somebody else has a thin skin. This whole argument hits a sore spot with me because I've caught crap over it at the local club and hobby shop - a couple of people rude enough to suggest that I ruin their hobby because I have standards on my layout, that I don't impose on anybody but me. Last time I hosted for the club layout tour, one of them made a big deal out of telling people he refused to come because of all this. I'd never even met this guy it turned out, he just didn't like the idea of anybody taking an approach to the hobby that didn't match his own.
It's the same type of silly peer pressure mentality that you shouldn't try to get straight A grades in school, because that might intimidate somebody. Just be happy with what happens on your own layout, it's all that should matter. Maybe you can come by my place, grab a throttle and run a train; you may have so much fun you forget the chip on your shoulder.
I'm just in it for the fun.
Oh yah, and the Articulateds, LOL!
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
I strive to please myself and if I can't please myself then how can I please others?
Now,if I please myself then why should I please others when I'm pleased?
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
chochowillie So much for my thoughts of the subject.
So much for my thoughts of the subject.
......snore.
Alton Junction
locoi1sa I used to have a bumper sticker that said Strive to meet the Minimum Requirements! The best you can do is all we can ask. Wish I still had that sticker.
I used to have a bumper sticker that said Strive to meet the Minimum Requirements! The best you can do is all we can ask.
Wish I still had that sticker.
I like the saying we had in flight school for those of us who were not naturals and didn't have top grades, "If the minimum wasn't good enough, there wouldn't be a minimum." Of course, the reply was, "Do you really want to fly with a pilot (you can substitute doctor or other ego-driven professions) who didn't think he was the best in the world?"
Brought back to model railroading, I used to have no patience for the idea of anything less than 100% complete detail, down to the n-b-w castings. Why would anyone settle for less than the absolute best they could do? Then I learned that if I wanted a "complete" layout in my lifetime, some things would have be done to the "good enough" standard.
My dreams of P87 track, making drivers and boilers on my lathe, scratch building passenger cars from brass stock, etc., have quietly been crossed off the bucket list. Generic steam locomotives, code 88 or code 110 wheels, spikes every 4th or 5th tie where it doesn't show, not bothering with complete brake rigging, living with magnetic uncoupling and trip pins instead of air hoses, etc - these are my "good enough" standards.
my thoughts, your choices
Fred W
Catt...great response.
Choo Choo Willie, of course you are correct. As in all areas of human activity there are folk that believe they know it all, and in fact may do so, but present their opinions in such a way as to put down another participant. This is in no way restricted to model railroading. Depending on the character of the neophyte, they may be put off by this, or may see it as a challenge.
I am of the opinion that this particular forum is very free of this type of interaction and is one of the more encouraging places for new folk to test the water,
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
I appreciate greatly the ideas I have taken from these forums. Most of them I have decided to try have made my layout better and given me great satisfaction. Those I have decided not to try for various reasons (too expensive, not related to what I am currently seeking, confusing instructions, too oriented to do it perfect or not at all, etc) have not caused me to throw in the towel or enjoy the hobby any less. We all need to learn to take what is beneficial, make suggestions others may or may not take and ignore posts that are inflamatory or insult another poster.
Thanks to all who have shared their ideas with me.
selector I'm thinking on my next layout I'll have a sign posted prominently: "If you find any errors on my layout, please understand that I try to please all visitors, and some of them are always looking for my mistakes." Crandell
I'm thinking on my next layout I'll have a sign posted prominently:
"If you find any errors on my layout, please understand that I try to please all visitors, and some of them are always looking for my mistakes."
Crandell
Edit: Read my signature.