Folkses, we dun this, a zillion times. This wun's dun 2.
P.S. - In Canada, where some of us are from, "modeler" would get a strikethrough and a correction to what the country of origin of our language would insist be spelled "modeller".
Crandell
[click]
TA462 jwhitten: blownout cylinder: it would be nice if others would consider doing the same in return, and not refer to those who are more to the prototypical side as ....rivet counters. Yeah and besides, rivet-counting is hard work... one thousand three hundred forty two.... one thousand three hundred forty three... one thou-- ARRRGGH! Now see what you made me do! (Sigh) One... two... three... John There is a big difference between being a rivet counter (I think your the only one that has brought it up) and trying to be a better modeller.
jwhitten: blownout cylinder: it would be nice if others would consider doing the same in return, and not refer to those who are more to the prototypical side as ....rivet counters. Yeah and besides, rivet-counting is hard work... one thousand three hundred forty two.... one thousand three hundred forty three... one thou-- ARRRGGH! Now see what you made me do! (Sigh) One... two... three... John
blownout cylinder: it would be nice if others would consider doing the same in return, and not refer to those who are more to the prototypical side as ....rivet counters.
it would be nice if others would consider doing the same in return, and not refer to those who are more to the prototypical side as ....rivet counters.
Yeah and besides, rivet-counting is hard work... one thousand three hundred forty two.... one thousand three hundred forty three... one thou-- ARRRGGH! Now see what you made me do!
(Sigh)
One... two... three...
John
There is a big difference between being a rivet counter (I think your the only one that has brought it up) and trying to be a better modeller.
I would think that as hard as you're working to admonish others for not performing at their peak, that you would have done a better job of reading my post. If you had you would have no doubt noticed that I quoted another user in my response. Moreover, I was not beating anybody over the head with it.
Also, just for the record, "modeler" is spelled with a single 'L'...
That is precisely the issue.
With regards to the above I found that recently the idea of 'rivet counting' has gone on to mean that it involves anyone who actually wants to, or desires, to do better even...whence did this come up?
Far be it from me to preach unto others how to do certain things..but it would be nice to go to a trainshow without someone jumping down my throat about my wanting to improve my skills...sheeesh.
If you do not want someone asking why you don't want to improve your skillsets then don't be jumping on the person who does want to improve their skillsets...simples.
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
TA462What do you think the reason is [for not advancing up the skill ladder]? I think it's because people are to lazy to try to improve and because of this Good Enough mind set that this forum tends to have. I've seen some very poor modeling that people praise up and down on this forum. Your not really helping people by praising them when the model really looks like a turd. Polite yes but honest no. I'd rather people be honest with me then polite when it comes to my own modelling skills.
And herein lies the problem with what too many modelers think of with "good enough." As applied by the acknowledged initiator of the phrase, it was that every model has a point at which it's good enough to fulfill its role on the layout. It was never intended to be an excuse for doing crappy work or refusing to improve.
For example, you may have a the back wall of a structure that a viewer will never see. Rather than expending the work on finishing that wall, you could say the model is good enough if the visible portions are complete. You still do a thorough job on those visible portions.
Can't see a structure's interior? It's good enough without that. Can't document every single detail of a freight car? Do the best possible job on the model with what's available.
Allen McClelland may have popularized the "good enough" philosophy, but he did his prototype research and exercised a high level of craftsmanship in his modeling. I wonder what he would say about how his turn of phrase has been perverted into an excuse for "anything goes?"
Rob Spangler
Weeelllllll...maybe so...but there have been some around at some trainshows who have conflated the two into one and the same.
In fact it happened to me just awhile back. Someone at a trainshow didst do this aforesaid thing when I said that I was taking down an elevator that I built and redoing it into a better model of one. I just looked at him and asked which version of what dictionary he got that from.....and he was not joking either...
selector I'm thinking on my next layout I'll have a sign posted prominently: "If you find any errors on my layout, please understand that I try to please all visitors, and some of them are always looking for my mistakes." Crandell
I'm thinking on my next layout I'll have a sign posted prominently:
"If you find any errors on my layout, please understand that I try to please all visitors, and some of them are always looking for my mistakes."
Dear Crandell & Friends
I love this.
It's pure genius. Thanks for sharing!
Who cares how well one models? I don't try to improve my handwriting because it's good enough for me, and I can make it good enough for others when it must be. I am, however, always trying to improve my skills as a photographer. As model railroads, I have only Thomas ones, and they're out of the box.
Take it easy. Or don't. It's up to you.
--Jaddie
But to not challenge yourself to do better by reaching beyond one's skill set? That's when I disagree. You said, "...do your best within your modeling skills..." To me, that says that we shouldn't try to increase our modeling skills at all. I think that one should occasionally reach beyond one's skills and try new ideas, new techniques, etc. How else does one learn?
Paul.
------------------------------
Suffice it to say some modelers will never advance up the skill ladder because they lack the ability for some reason.
I seen modelers that knew a lot about the hobby and yet never had the needed basic skills to paint and decal a locomotive or lay a straight piece of flex track..
And as Clint Eastwood said as Dirty Harry "A man gotta know his limitions.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Brakie,We both agree that one should always try to please yourself in this hobby. Other than that, you lost me. At no time did I state that this is a competitive hobby (altough there are some of us who enjoy entering modeling contests...not me, but there's many out there that do), nor did I state that musuem-quality models and/or layout are somehow required. I have no idea where you got that impression from my above posting.
I did say that people who are intimidated by great model railroads should quit now. I also said that those who are inspired by great model railroads tend to make this a lifetime hobby. Where's the "trap"? If the trap is that some are never satisfied and never feel happy because they can't make a "perfect" model, then I'll add that these people should quit now, too. This is a hobby, it's supposed to be for our own entertainment. If you are never happy with it, why be a part of it?
Paul A. Cutler III
I actually went through a stage wherein I thought that I should be able to model the approach to Toronto's Union Station. The whole 30 mile stretch into and out of that station....yeah right!!! ...compression anyone? That was when I realized that I, only having X space could only place a certain amount of said idea into that space.
Then there was the idea of an elevator....anyone ever notice how many different elevators existed in the 1970's-1990's? And how they changed over time? Even a 15 year period was a bit of a jog....
So, I came to realize that to be a prototype/lancer I had to become a bit more realistic with what I could do with the space I had
I'm just in it for the fun.
I'm in it only for the money & hot babes.
jwhitten blownout cylinder: it would be nice if others would consider doing the same in return, and not refer to those who are more to the prototypical side as ....rivet counters. Yeah and besides, rivet-counting is hard work... one thousand three hundred forty two.... one thousand three hundred forty three... one thou-- ARRRGGH! Now see what you made me do! (Sigh) One... two... three... John
Every time I try to count rivets I lose count or fall asleep..
blownout cylinder it would be nice if others would consider doing the same in return, and not refer to those who are more to the prototypical side as ....rivet counters.
It really is interesting seeing all these reactions to people who seem to have a need to go for a more realistic layout.
I don't get..oh oh, I just said something here that may ignite some fires here...the attitude that decries someone having more of a predilection for this realism in the first place...what is it about? Are we really 'threatened' by their existence here? How can someone jump on someone else simply because they have skills that were built up over time and they don't?
That is why we have this forum...so that we who may not have all those skills can learn from each other how such and such is done. I like seeing how people get things to look more realistic. I like how these people can get things to that extra level...but it seems some just are not into that learning curve...
I, myself, am not in the camp that likes calling others lazy simply because of their lack of interest in what others are doing, or can do....it would be nice if others would consider doing the same in return, and not refer to those who are more to the prototypical side as ....rivet counters.
We do have choices in how we react to these challenges..mine is with learning...
vsmith Model railroading is about making perfection? Perfection!
Model railroading is about making perfection?
Perfection!
Awesome !
Here is a photo of my perfect track laying in S scale. Notice the prototypical rail ties. Perfect !
Alton Junction
TA462 There are two types of people in this world. People that strive to be the best in what ever they do and people that are to LAZY to try to improve. The rest of you that think "GOOD ENOUGH" really is good enough then come on, get off your lazy rearends and improve your skills. EVERYONE can improve, not just you lazy guys.
Lazy? When I was into painting and detailing I spent long hours trying to get my locomotives to look the way I wanted them to. The paint jobs may not be flawless, but I am satisfied with the results.
Paul3 Anyone who sees a "perfect" model railroad and throws their hands up in despair should quit the hobby at once. This hobby is not meant for you. You will only become frustrated by your insecurities. Leave this hobby now and go find something else that can satisfy you or you will become bitter and miserable. Anyone who sees a "perfect" model railroad and says, "That's what I want to do! How can I learn to do that?" is someone who will make this a life-long hobby. This is a hobby where striving for "perfection" leads to a life-long hobby goal of trying your best and improving your skills. This chase for "perfection" is itself part of the "fun" of the hobby, and figuring out a solution or finding that nugget of information or completing that hard-to-build model can lead to a satisfied feeling that can last for years...which makes for a happy hobbiest. Being intimidated by quality work is a mark against the observer, not against the work. Paul A. Cutler III
Anyone who sees a "perfect" model railroad and throws their hands up in despair should quit the hobby at once. This hobby is not meant for you. You will only become frustrated by your insecurities. Leave this hobby now and go find something else that can satisfy you or you will become bitter and miserable.
Anyone who sees a "perfect" model railroad and says, "That's what I want to do! How can I learn to do that?" is someone who will make this a life-long hobby. This is a hobby where striving for "perfection" leads to a life-long hobby goal of trying your best and improving your skills. This chase for "perfection" is itself part of the "fun" of the hobby, and figuring out a solution or finding that nugget of information or completing that hard-to-build model can lead to a satisfied feeling that can last for years...which makes for a happy hobbiest.
Being intimidated by quality work is a mark against the observer, not against the work.
Paul,I been in this hobby way to long to fall into that trap again like I did when I was young.
This isn't a competitive hobby as many try to make it nor is it required you need museum quality models and layout..
The best advice is do your best within your modeling skills and accept you need to please no one except yourself..Do that and you will enjoy this hobby throughout your life time.
Anything other then that can lead you down the path of quiting because you're never please.
I have always felt that I should do my personal best when it comes to any project. But, I also know that there comes a time when you get so involved with a project that it doesn't become fun anymore.
For instance, I just super detailed one of my Athearn P42s and decided not include the HEP cables on the ends. The reason, they were hard to drill in and I was happy with the end result of the undercarriage being complete. I also did not add MU hose, but may go back and finish those.
I am also super-detailing an Athearn GP 38-2. It won't have all of the detail parts as the prototype, but it will have DCC and sound and LED lighting. My goal is to make it run and sound prototypical.
Whenever I visit someone's layout or see their work (especially on these forums) I appreciate their hard work and am extremely grateful they have taken the time to show what they have done and most people have personally given me hints to accomplish my personal endeavors.
And for that, I am eternally grateful.
Will
Even the trash and garbage is perfect!
Its the imperfections that make things perfect
Have fun with your trains
It might be more useful to put something of a tune to it...http://lab.andre-michelle.com/tonematrix
A yes! It has come down this, has it? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teMlv3ripSM
Maybe this is a fitting end to this thread as it seems to be a dead sketch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6Lq771TVm4&feature=related
"Oh I'm a modeler and I'm OK........."
In fact this whole thread is just plain silly: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhJQp-q1Y1s
73
Ray Seneca Lake, Ontario, and Western R.R. (S.L.O.&W.) in HO
We'll get there sooner or later!
jwhitten "WHAT DO YOU WANT?" "Well, I was told outside that..." "Don't give me that, you snotty-faced heap of parrot droppings!" "What?" "Shut your festering gob, you twit! Your type really makes me puke, you vacuous, coffee-nosed, maloderous, pervert!!!" "Look, I CAME HERE FOR AN ARGUMENT, I'm not going to just stand...!!" "OH! Oh I'm sorry, but this is abuse." "Oh, I see, well, that explains it." "Ah yes, you want room 12A, Just along the corridor." "Oh, Thank you very much. Sorry." "Not at all." "Thank You." (mutters under breath) "Stupid git!!" ... and now for something completely different... John
"WHAT DO YOU WANT?"
"Well, I was told outside that..."
"Don't give me that, you snotty-faced heap of parrot droppings!"
"What?"
"Shut your festering gob, you twit! Your type really makes me puke, you vacuous, coffee-nosed, maloderous, pervert!!!"
"Look, I CAME HERE FOR AN ARGUMENT, I'm not going to just stand...!!"
"OH! Oh I'm sorry, but this is abuse."
"Oh, I see, well, that explains it."
"Ah yes, you want room 12A, Just along the corridor."
"Oh, Thank you very much. Sorry."
"Not at all."
"Thank You."
(mutters under breath) "Stupid git!!"
... and now for something completely different...
Continuing on......
(Walk down the corridor) (Knock) Come in. Ah, Is this the right room for an argument? I told you once. No you haven't. Yes I have.When?Just now.No you didn't.Yes I did. You didn'tI did!You didn't! I'm telling you I did!You did not!! Oh, I'm sorry, just one moment. Is this a five minute argument or the full half hour? Oh, just the five minutes. Ah, thank you. Anyway, I did.You most certainly did not. Look, let's get this thing clear; I quite definitely told you. No you did not. Yes I did. No you didn't. Yes I did. No you didn't.Yes I did. No you didn't. Yes I did.You didn't.Did.Oh look, this isn't an argument. Yes it is. No it isn't. It's just contradiction. No it it isn't. It is!It is not.ook, you just contradicted me. I did not.Oh you did!!No, no, no.You did just then. Nonsense!.........<continues for a few minutes more>
That and the above quote pretty much sum up this thread.
Breaks into "Lumberjack" song with altered lyrics
I build model trains and I'm OK,
I dream all night and I plan all day
He builds model trains and he's OK
He dreams all night and plans all day.
I handlay track, I weather cars,
I go to the lavat'ry
On Wednesday I go shopping
For components of DCC......
--------------------------------------------------
The world would be a darker place without Monty Python.
Andre
davidmbedard There is a huge difference between "perfection" and striving to do the best you can. Looking at anyone who strives to do the best they can in a negative light is a disservice to this hobby and to your character. If we all were happy with the status-quo, then we would still be living with X2f couplers, cd100 brass rail and truck mounted couplers on everything. Personally, I grow every day in this hobby, and I am a far cry from my first train set. My advice is to grow in this hobby, enjoy the challenges, learn from your failures and come out with the satisfaction that you had fun in learning something. David B
There is a huge difference between "perfection" and striving to do the best you can. Looking at anyone who strives to do the best they can in a negative light is a disservice to this hobby and to your character. If we all were happy with the status-quo, then we would still be living with X2f couplers, cd100 brass rail and truck mounted couplers on everything.
Personally, I grow every day in this hobby, and I am a far cry from my first train set.
My advice is to grow in this hobby, enjoy the challenges, learn from your failures and come out with the satisfaction that you had fun in learning something.
David B
David, as always, you said it better that I ever could.
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
jmbjmb TA462: The rest of you that think "GOOD ENOUGH" really is good enough then come on, get off your lazy rearends and improve your skills. Wonder if the V&O was "good enough" since that was the philosophy used to build it? Otherwise this whole post perfectly defines the issue -- basically you've stated that anyone who doesn't follow the same philosophy as you is "lazy" and therefore wrong. Everyone is in a hobby for different goals and not neccessarily to compete to outdo everyone else. If someone meets their goals, why is that wrong?
TA462: The rest of you that think "GOOD ENOUGH" really is good enough then come on, get off your lazy rearends and improve your skills.
The rest of you that think "GOOD ENOUGH" really is good enough then come on, get off your lazy rearends and improve your skills.
Wonder if the V&O was "good enough" since that was the philosophy used to build it?
Otherwise this whole post perfectly defines the issue -- basically you've stated that anyone who doesn't follow the same philosophy as you is "lazy" and therefore wrong. Everyone is in a hobby for different goals and not neccessarily to compete to outdo everyone else. If someone meets their goals, why is that wrong?
He had a different level of 'good enough' than your level. Simples. To me, good enough is that which I aspire to, on MY layout. Different means only that ...different. No hieracrhy of valuation here.
What YOU do with your layout is YOUR business ..not mine. Nobody is saying here that you have to achieve greater goals if you do not desire to.
I have a client here who is a child with CP..he always attempts--with some success I might add --to do his best with his layout, with the help of a few of us around here. If you have issues with something we are here to help you figure the thing out...no issues from my end...
TA462 The rest of you that think "GOOD ENOUGH" really is good enough then come on, get off your lazy rearends and improve your skills.
Well.... (a deep subject!), since the OP hasn't been back, I would guess the post was just to get as much going as possible for our (and his) entertainment....
I wonder if the OP was mistreated somewhere in his hobby ventures to say such a statement. No where in any magazine article, NMRA bulletin, or web site is there a rule etched in stone concerning what way to model is best. You strive to do the best you can. If you're happy with your results, that's as far as it goes. If you're not, you try harder the next project. There are some top notch modelers here, Dr.Wayne and Jon Grant are two examples, I never see them posting about perfection,the costs, the hobbies dying. Maybe they just know how to be great modelers and model........mh