Having been involved in some way or other with Model Railroading since the invention of dirt I have to say a lot of things have changed in the hobby over the years. Some Good and Some Bad.
One of the things I note in particular is the old issue of the "Everything MUST be perfect crowd" AKA Model RR Craftsman compared to the "Good Enough" crowd.
duck duck duck
Whatever floats your boat I suppose is what is right for you.... B-U-T (there it is, the big but) In my not so humble opinion the whole Perfection is the only standard does a serious disservice to the hobby in general. A newcomer or a old returning enthusist of the hobby can be seriously put off but the Perfect crowd. Ok Ok, That's your thing but honestly. All that Perfection STUFF makes newbies just throw up their hands in dispair and say I think I won't bother if this is the way thing are in this hobby.
So much for my thoughts of the subject.
Choo Choo Willie
PS - Got my flack jacket on...
CDN Dennis
Modeling the HO scale something or other RR in the shadow of the Canadian Rockies Alberta, Canada
Won't get any argument from me on this one.
Have you read the, "It's MODEL Railroading" thread? Same type of subject.
Connecticut Valley Railroad A Branch of the New York, New Haven, and Hartford
"If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right." -- Henry Ford
I'm with you, you ought to be flamed for this. I may like my narrowness better than yours, but I won''t try to sell it to you or the forum. I am going back to trying to paint a sunset.
Perfection is for perfect people.
Know any? Me neither.
ARTHILL I'm with you, you ought to be flamed for this. I may like my narrowness better than yours, but I won''t try to sell it to you or the forum. I am going back to trying to paint a sunset.
No, no Art..... We should all be striving our very best at all times for mediocrity......
(pulls up chair to watch the show.............)
Ray Seneca Lake, Ontario, and Western R.R. (S.L.O.&W.) in HO
We'll get there sooner or later!
howmus ARTHILL: I'm with you, you ought to be flamed for this. I may like my narrowness better than yours, but I won''t try to sell it to you or the forum. I am going back to trying to paint a sunset. No, no Art..... We should all be striving our very best at all times for mediocrity...... (pulls up chair to watch the show.............)
ARTHILL: I'm with you, you ought to be flamed for this. I may like my narrowness better than yours, but I won''t try to sell it to you or the forum. I am going back to trying to paint a sunset.
mmmmm...looking for a little action are we?
Far be it from me to tell someone how to do something 'correctly'...is there such a thing as 'correctly', I wonder...I'll stick my poker into the fire and say that maybe we should strive to some kind of excellence...even if it is our own...
Think I got everything I need..including the suit of armor
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
Here we go again.
How many of these threads are we going to see! I agree with you all, but no matter how many threads of this sort you put out, the "Everything MUST be perfect crowd" simply are not going to change their ways! To each his own, I say. This is a MODEL RAILROADING forum. Can we please keep the threads on THOSE topics!?
Ok, rant over.
When I was starting out, I was INSPIRED by the "perfection" guys. Al Kamm making an E8/9 instead of just settling for an E7. Jack work building that coal mine instead of buying a Suydam (like me). Or how about those articles about fixing up that same Suydam.
And, let me say, no one is making the new kids be run over by the perfection people. If they are, maybe they should invest in a spine.
I, too, think people should do what they please in this hobby, and let other people do what they please. And everyone should learn how to spell "rivet".
Ed
Edit: Read my signature.
I'm thinking on my next layout I'll have a sign posted prominently:
"If you find any errors on my layout, please understand that I try to please all visitors, and some of them are always looking for my mistakes."
Crandell
selector I'm thinking on my next layout I'll have a sign posted prominently: "If you find any errors on my layout, please understand that I try to please all visitors, and some of them are always looking for my mistakes." Crandell
I appreciate greatly the ideas I have taken from these forums. Most of them I have decided to try have made my layout better and given me great satisfaction. Those I have decided not to try for various reasons (too expensive, not related to what I am currently seeking, confusing instructions, too oriented to do it perfect or not at all, etc) have not caused me to throw in the towel or enjoy the hobby any less. We all need to learn to take what is beneficial, make suggestions others may or may not take and ignore posts that are inflamatory or insult another poster.
Thanks to all who have shared their ideas with me.
I used to have a bumper sticker that said Strive to meet the Minimum Requirements! The best you can do is all we can ask.
Wish I still had that sticker.
Pete
I pray every day I break even, Cause I can really use the money!
I started with nothing and still have most of it left!
Choo Choo Willie, of course you are correct. As in all areas of human activity there are folk that believe they know it all, and in fact may do so, but present their opinions in such a way as to put down another participant. This is in no way restricted to model railroading. Depending on the character of the neophyte, they may be put off by this, or may see it as a challenge.
I am of the opinion that this particular forum is very free of this type of interaction and is one of the more encouraging places for new folk to test the water,
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
Catt...great response.
locoi1sa I used to have a bumper sticker that said Strive to meet the Minimum Requirements! The best you can do is all we can ask. Wish I still had that sticker.
I like the saying we had in flight school for those of us who were not naturals and didn't have top grades, "If the minimum wasn't good enough, there wouldn't be a minimum." Of course, the reply was, "Do you really want to fly with a pilot (you can substitute doctor or other ego-driven professions) who didn't think he was the best in the world?"
Brought back to model railroading, I used to have no patience for the idea of anything less than 100% complete detail, down to the n-b-w castings. Why would anyone settle for less than the absolute best they could do? Then I learned that if I wanted a "complete" layout in my lifetime, some things would have be done to the "good enough" standard.
My dreams of P87 track, making drivers and boilers on my lathe, scratch building passenger cars from brass stock, etc., have quietly been crossed off the bucket list. Generic steam locomotives, code 88 or code 110 wheels, spikes every 4th or 5th tie where it doesn't show, not bothering with complete brake rigging, living with magnetic uncoupling and trip pins instead of air hoses, etc - these are my "good enough" standards.
my thoughts, your choices
Fred W
chochowillie So much for my thoughts of the subject.
......snore.
Alton Junction
I strive to please myself and if I can't please myself then how can I please others?
Now,if I please myself then why should I please others when I'm pleased?
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
I'm just in it for the fun.
Oh yah, and the Articulateds, LOL!
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
chochowillie One of the things I note in particular is the old issue of the "Everything MUST be perfect crowd" AKA Model RR Craftsman compared to the "Good Enough" crowd. In my not so humble opinion the whole Perfection is the only standard does a serious disservice to the hobby in general.
In my not so humble opinion the whole Perfection is the only standard does a serious disservice to the hobby in general.
I'm a prototype modeler and always strive to improve and raise my standards. That's MY business and I don't expect anybody else to comply. I'm not lowering my standards because somebody else has a thin skin. This whole argument hits a sore spot with me because I've caught crap over it at the local club and hobby shop - a couple of people rude enough to suggest that I ruin their hobby because I have standards on my layout, that I don't impose on anybody but me. Last time I hosted for the club layout tour, one of them made a big deal out of telling people he refused to come because of all this. I'd never even met this guy it turned out, he just didn't like the idea of anybody taking an approach to the hobby that didn't match his own.
It's the same type of silly peer pressure mentality that you shouldn't try to get straight A grades in school, because that might intimidate somebody. Just be happy with what happens on your own layout, it's all that should matter. Maybe you can come by my place, grab a throttle and run a train; you may have so much fun you forget the chip on your shoulder.
Rob Spangler
I am always in search of excellence, but I have yet to find it
I am in this hobby to please no one else but me, but that does not mean I am not open to justified critique. After all, learning never stops.
chochowillie A newcomer or a old returning enthusist of the hobby can be seriously put off but the Perfect crowd. Ok Ok, That's your thing but honestly. All that Perfection STUFF makes newbies just throw up their hands in dispair and say I think I won't bother if this is the way thing are in this hobby.
A newcomer or a old returning enthusist of the hobby can be seriously put off but the Perfect crowd. Ok Ok, That's your thing but honestly. All that Perfection STUFF makes newbies just throw up their hands in dispair and say I think I won't bother if this is the way thing are in this hobby.
When I returned to the hobby and via this site 5 years ago, that is what I thought as a re-newed newbie. That everyone's work was masterpieces! ANd I would never live up to it!
Then one day when my father showed an interest in playing with my old childhod/early teen O-O/27 layout I dug out some of the stuff I had packed away. I looked at some of attempts and mused out loud, "boy I didn't do a very a good job, did I" {at scratchbuilding buildings and structures}. My father said "well you have got to remember your abilities and what you had to work with at the time".
That kinda stuck with me. I was new again to stuff. SO it's my railroad and I'll run what I wanna! I'll paint my buildings with what colors and paint I wanna.
I can do certain things the "acceptable way" but others I shall DO what I wanna!
-G .
Just my thoughts, ideas, opinions and experiences. Others may vary.
HO and N Scale.
After long and careful thought, they have convinced me. I have come to the conclusion that they are right. The aliens did it.
Any resemblance to perfection in my endeavors is purely coincidental. I only try to approach it when laying trackwork - secure in the knowledge that I may approach, but will never attain.
What, me worry?
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
Before this thread dies, let me say that there are three important variables that modelers have to take into consideration:
1) Hand - eye coordination and dexterity: some modelers are clumsier than others (such as myself).
2) Tools and equipment: you have to have the right tools and equipment and take safety precautions when building and painting models. (I have no designated work area, no airbrush, and no place to spray paint models).
3) Money: all the equipment, tools, parts, and materials can get expensive, so budget and resources are important factors in being able to produce contest-quality models. (Locomotives are my favourite aspect of model railroading, and as of late I've been buying factory painted models and just adding a few detail parts to make them look a little more prototypical).
Why does this topic continue to rear it's ugly head? There will always be a chasm between the prototype modelers, the freelancers and those in between.
There are:
A. Model Railroaders
B. Railroad Modelers (including prototype modeling)
C. Freelancers
D. Toy Train enthusiasts
Almost all of us that socialize here are in the A category. We have model trains, are looking to build a layout, have a layout or belong to a club with a layout. We enjoy running trains, structured as in operating sessions or otherwise.
Many people who love trains and build layouts and buy model trains are in the C and D category. They are happy keeping things light and simple. Prototypical accuracy is not their main concern.
People in the B category are modeling from a retrospective, historical point of view; they are fascinated by the history of the railroad, the purpose of the motive power, rolling stock and structures. The accuracy of the model lends itself to learning the history of its prototype. They enjoy the challenge of creating a model that closely resembles the real thing. Brass models are aimed at this group. Companies such as Details West and Custom Finishing develop products for this type of modeler. There are prototype modeling meets held every year all over the U.S. (and other countries). Clinics are held to share ideas and to educate. Knowledge is as valuable a tool as an Xacto knife for this group.
Some of us are in between; we enjoy prototype modeling but also enjoy simply opening a box, placing the loco or cars on the track and run down the line!
You can have fun if you are A, B, C, or D types; do what makes you happy. But know this, the foundation of this hobby is to model the prototype; otherwise this would be the toy train hobby. How many of your non- hobby friends think you are silly to "play with trains"? Millions of dollars are invested each year by the manufacturers, to build quality models and accessories. Millions of dollars of revenue are generated each year by folks who are willing to spend $100.00 on a loco and $150.00 on paint, decals, and details parts to achieve satisfaction. They are also appreciative of the $300+ model that is accurately constructed, painted and detailed, as well as outfitted with electronics to enhance the realism.
On the other hand, many manufacturers sell products for the beginners and the uninitiated because there is a market for it. Over the years toy trains have been packaged as model trains. Just because is says HO scale on the box does not make it a "model". Browse Ebay and you'll see what I mean.
Many models of the past were made with the best technology available at the time. Their products are harshly criticized by the folks who were not around before 1980. Skilled modelers can convert some of these older items into very nice modern models.
Unfortunately, we have folks in each category that put down folks that don't share their philosophy. In my opinion, the term "Rivet Counters" is derogatory; aimed at the "Ivory Tower" group that criticize the work and efforts of the casual modeler or the beginner. Many are turned off by this attitude and rightfully so, Prototype modelers should always encourage and be respectful of the hard work someone put into a project. This attitude alienates and intimidates those who may have considered moving toward a higher level of modeling, only to become frustrated and disgusted.
But what is most disturbing are the folks who think having "the best" is bad. I believe the cause is based on several factors; higher pricing, models to fragile to handle, too complicated to operate, etc.I also believe that some people's self-esteem is threaten by those who can achieve the highest levels in anything and this hobby is no exception. Instead of seeing the challenge, they make negative comments as if striving to do the best is a bad thing. Like the comment made earlier regarding grades, this negativity is poison. It truly represents the dark side of the human condition.
The rules of this hobby are simple:
1. Have fun
2. Refer to number Rule 1.
Here are the unwritten rules we should all follow:
3. Encourage others that enjoy the hobby.
4. Give constructive criticism NOT destructive criticism.
5. Share your experiences so others can benefit.
6. Find others that enjoy the hobby as you do; work and have fun together help each other build a layout, paint a model, etc. if you read MR, you will find it takes a village to build a layout.
Recommendations:
If you model a specific railroad, learn its history; there are many books available as well as Internet articles. More awareness leads to better modeling.
Join the historical society of your favorite RR or Fallen Flag (look it up if you don't know this is).
Observe the prototype; learn how they operate; watch (from a safe non-threatening distance) switching maneuvers and yard operations. If possible talk to engineers, brakeman, yardmasters, etc.
Understand railroad modeling is 3 dimensional art. Appreciate the efforts of ALL who pickup a paint brush, glue, and tools and turn a few scraps of metal, wood, or plastic into magic.
I jump off the rant rail now
Carl in Florida - - - - - - - - - - We need an HO Amtrak SDP40F and GE U36B oh wait- We GOT THEM!
Thanks for your comments, Carl. Very good points and worth noting.
I agree with and am similar to Carl in my approach to this hobby of ours. I push myself for prototype accuracy, find enjoyment in learning about the history of the prototype (in my case, the NYC), and also enjoy helping others by sharing what I've learned in my short time in the hobby so far. Thankfully, I have run across VERY few (if any) MRRers that would fall into the category as those described by the OP.
I'm in this hobby for enjoyment and learning and realize that I will NEVER achieve "perfection" on my own layout; nor do I expect it on other's layouts. I push myself to be the best I can be - without pushing that demand onto others around me. And, although I may not choose to model like someone else because I don't particularly care for their modeling "style", choice of scale, or techniques, I can still learn from them and glean from their experience.
Actually, I find that I'm so busy with learning about the New York Central - how it operated, what it owned, what important details give a layout that "NYC look", etc. - I have little to no time nor concern for criticizing others about their layouts. Besides, what good will that do. They can find plenty of things to criticize about my own layout. LOL!
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
My two cents worth for today,
Those than can should- Those that can't should atleast try.
Just remember it's Your hobby not mine,if your happy who gives a rip if Joe Expert likes it.
While I strive for a fair amount of detail and accuracy in my modeling -
I also want to have an Operarting Layout and have twice monthly OPs Session - this is the only reason I built the layout in the first place.
If I spend all my time getting everything super accurate I won't have time for OPERATIONS!
And with building a Club sized home layout by myself - scenery sort of takes a backseat as does getting all of the buildings scratch built or kitbashed (as I am doing a Prototypical design layout)
So super detail will come - when I have nothing better to do - which might be a while!
BUT - At least I have an OPERATING layout and can then detail it as I get time - instead of trying to super build everything and NEVER have an OPERATING Layout as so many seem to have (or not have)!
And as for OPs - when I put out the e-mail that I am having an OPs Session - I can get over 30 replys wanting to come run the layout - so Scenery and Super Detail building and rolling stock- and unfortunately have to turn some away!
MUST NOT MEAN THAT MUCH to so many modelers as they would much rather have an OPERATING Session instead of looking at a bunch of super detailed stuff that doesn't make the trains run one bit better!
BOB H - Clarion, PA
Catt,
How 'bout this?...
"Those that (desire and) can should (have the freedom to do so); Those that can't should at least (give it a) try". And neither party should criticize the other openly for their approach to the hobby.