"I believe there was a slight decrease in attendance at most of the shows I attended over the last year. I think I went to around 12. Most of the vendors I spoke with tend to agree with you up here as well. People aren't buying as much as they use to."
I saw the above comment on the "lone wolf" thread this morning and felt compelled to remark:
Two weeks ago, I attended a local trainshow/flea market that I regularly mark on my calendar. It is held every 3 months and i often find at least a few cars or an engine to take home. This past event, I looked around a bit more closely-
- there were fewer tables with vendors showing their inventory.
- I am certain that i have seen much of that inventory before- particularly where there were "mint condition" or very good condition engines (steam and diesel) offered.
- things such as structure kits, parts, woodland scenics figures in new boxed condition were being offered at only a hair below their actual retail purchase prices- no bargain there!
- there was a lot of stuff in such conditon that a junkyard would have been the better venue, particularly the old DC electrical power pack equipment.
-many vendors were closing up their tables after only 2-3 hours (on the second day-Sunday), having opened the doors at 9am.
- many more "lookers" than buyers, as might be the case anyway, but really noticeable this past show.
- a number of previously-familiar faces among the table vendors were missing this time around.
At any rate, I went home with my precious cargo of several cars to add to my modest inventory, but was not as "content" as I had been in the past, as per the above observations.
Perhaps this is not the case in other areas (incl. our friends in Canada), but I offer this as one anecdotal observation, vis- a vis the present economy.
Shows/swap meets are precious few in my neck of the woods, though the last one I attended I had much the same experience. In fact I left the show disappointed and empty-handed; there were really no bargains at all to be had for the modeler on a shoestring hobby budget like myself. I think it's just a sign of the times.
Jim
"I am lapidary but not eristic when I use big words." - William F. Buckley
I haven't been sleeping. I'm afraid I'll dream I'm in a coma and then wake up unconscious. -Stephen Wright
There was a period of about a dozen years when I'd go to at least two train shows a month from October through April. While I've cut back on the number of shows I attend lately in favor of using the time to work on the models I've acquired, I've still noticed a few trends with respect to the vendors at shows.
1) In the early 1990s, a lot of guys got into the "basement hobbyshop business", focusing on doing train shows. Of these, a number have gone to selling exclusively over eBay, and many have decided it was just too much work and dropped out altogether. I've heard second- and third-hand that a couple were supposedly forced out by their distributors adding "brick-and-mortar store" requirements.
2) A lot of the older, more established dealers have been retiring, or just plain dying off. 'just the normal aging process at work, here. Their old stuff keeps appearing at shows, though, as other dealers buy them out.
3) Several dealers I know have cut down the distance they're willing to travel to get to a show, largely citing gas prices, and in one case, vehicle age and wear. They opt to do shows closer to home.
For a number of years I was involved in running a medium-sized show. Vendors who packed up and left very early without a good reason (generally a personal emergency) were bumped to lowest priority and less desirable table spots in the following years. A couple took offense and stopped doing our show, but frankly we didn't miss them as much as we hated having empty tables in prime spaces within two or three hours of opening.
Over a 25-year period, I've watched train shows in SE Michigan shift from being dominated by guys who bought one or two tables to move excess personal stuff or their own home-manufactured products to being dominated by larger dealers with four to six tables apiece.
-Fritz Milhaupt, Publications Editor, Pere Marquette Historical Society, Inc.http://www.pmhistsoc.org
Family ski trips kept me from all of the major shows this past winter, but I did get to one of the smaller shows a few weeks back. It was a 1-day event, held in a school gym. There were only a couple of operating layouts, but one was quite large and had a lot to look at.
The vendor tables were all full, and they seemed to be doing a brisk business. I spent about $25, and I came away with a new car, a used car and a couple of kits.
A year or so ago, I was at a show. I was talking to a vendor who was complaining that people weren't buying the big-ticket items, only the small stuff. I bought a bunch of junk from him - literally - stuff for my scrapyard. I found a treasure at that show, too - a new-in-the-box IHC Mikado for a bargain price.
Like shopping at the LHS, we need to keep going to shows, too.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
I usually attend two-possibly bring that claim to several-per year. My purposes are to find things not normally available in shops (EG: roundhouse doors from Central valley-I have never seen them in LHS), and craftsman-level kits; as well as finding older kits like Sheepscot, Timberline, Scale Structures LTD, et al. Other reasons are to attend clinics, and enjoy cameraderie with old and new friends on both sides of the tables and boothes. I do a great deal of scratch-building/bashing, kit modifications,introduction of other skills (like casting my own parts); so my quest at these shows might be more towards acquiring skills from the clinics, and searching out and purchasing parts from companies like Tichy, Grandt,, etc. I, like others here, also have found that ordering on-line is a really great way to do business, albiet no bargains usually. This, I know, eats into the commerce of a hobby show; but so go the times, I guess.
The one thing I will comment on is that the Springfield show-from the people I talked to-had as many visitors, if not more, than in precious years. As I am usually pretty busy with a work schedule, I do not consider travelling beyant and beyond to fit into my schedule. This does contradict with the state of the ecomony; to which I would assume that peopl usually plan and budget for these events. I know I do.
On noteworthy observation is, of course, the state of the economy and the dearth of jobs, the accompanying drops in discretionary spending, and the availability and sometimes price of the items in this hobby. it is sad to see this condition, and I do hope it changes soon, with more and more people again becoming more financially able to satisfy their desires/goals.
The Prototype meet in Canton, Ct is up-coming. I do hope to see a goodly crowd there, as the clinics are really worth attending, as well as the insight and inspiration gained from looking over the displays of craftsmanship found there; as well as meeting up and talking with some of the more visible personalities, lilke Tony Koester, etc..
EF_3 Yellowjacket
There's only one or two held in Tucson, Arizona each year now, both by the same organization. It seems that the same vendors with the same offerings are at each one, with very little variance from show to show.
I must mention how much RAIN very often helps in the succes of model train shows. The local Hooksett , NH Lions Club held their 16th Annual Show here, last Sunday and it started raining heavily just after show opened. After I got home, my wife commented: If t'were NOT for the rain and we had warm, sunny weather instead, folks would be out riding, maybe going to yard sales and the train show would have suffered with poor attendance. Couldn't argue a bit with her feminine logic. In my case, the good crowds were a Blessing, as I sold 4 surplus HO locos and some rr books, making some badly need layout capital, so it worked out quite well for yours truly. CAN'T WAIT for the next local show here in August [ the 21st, in Concord, NH ] as will have some more surplus HO items to put up for sale there. TTFN......Old Tom aka papasmurf in NH
I agree with most of what you said.
I went to a few shows this year and the number of vendors was fewer than in years past.
Many shows have COMBINED with some other hobby {dolls, antiques} etc. to draw more people.
Much of the "new in box" BB and others were quite "shop warn" having been carried around for years, and the prices actually marked UP over the years...regardless of "show discounts".
Many NEW items were, as stated, about the same retail as a shop or online, including the "show discount".
Much of used stuff was junk yard fodder as stated. Even IF i was INTO , say Lionel trains, I would NOT want the old used beat up crap they were trying to sell at @ $30-$50 a car. HO stuff of old train sets the same way. WHY oh WHY would I want to buy JUNK? and @ $10 a car???? As has been said several times on this forum, just because it is old does not mean it is valuable. I don't know of anyone who wants to "complete their set" of old TYCO train set cars in HO @$10 a piece, or the REAL bargain of "3 for $25".!!!
ANything with horn hooks on it I pass on now. I bought only 2 cars with horn hooks that I have to convert and don't really want to convert any more. I will tolerate knock-off KaDees, but horn hooks? no car is worth that much time and energy to convert at the prices they want for them!
I can only see the same vendors with the same stuff showing up at the same shows so much. Then it becomes boring and a waste fo my time and money!
MAny of the vendors of "other hobbies" seemed to be doing more business than the trains, especially the antiques.
We are in an economic situation, but marking up prices just to take off a measly 10% or 20% "Show discount" isn't a bargain to me.
-G .
Just my thoughts, ideas, opinions and experiences. Others may vary.
HO and N Scale.
After long and careful thought, they have convinced me. I have come to the conclusion that they are right. The aliens did it.
galaxy Many shows have COMBINED with some other hobby {dolls, antiques} etc. to draw more people.
Quite some time ago, before I got back into the hobby, I went to a Greenberg show. At the time, it was billed as a "Doll House and Model Railroad Show." It was about 2/3 doll house stuff. Now, the same show is easily 3/4 model railroading. There are some doll house vendors, and the rest is Power Rangers, action figures, Barbie and other toys. It's fine with me. I helps pay the bills, and it keeps the non-train members of the family busy.
At the last Greenberg show I attended, the happiest person I saw was a little girl walking with her Princess Barbie set. She had entered that wonderful place whose boundries are that of imagination.
I have always found the shows and flea markets sponsored by non-profits were more fun than the purely commercial events since there was always something for window shoppers like me to do and more people to talk to.
We have to be realistic, it must cost the dealers a great deal of money to acquire inventory, buy display cases, drive to shows, rent table space, and let's face it, their weekend time is extremely valuable. The $10 plastic box car with molded-on ladders and horn-hooks begins to look reasonably priced. (Every time I went to a show, I would see the same $60 beat-up Stephenson Rocket OO locomotive that I really wanted to buy, but at the time money was very tight. I wonder what ever happened to that locomotive?)
A recent show and flea market at the Garden State Exposition Center in Somerset, New Jersey, was really great. The organizers invited several modular clubs and provided tables for non-profits. There was a trackless train-ride for the kids, and a special display of circus models. Whether you were there to spend thousands of dollars or just look around the event was very nice.
Here are some suggestions for show organizers:
1. Invite non-profits like historical societies, museums, and NMRA special interest groups to set up information tables,
2. Provide distractions for young children. Give them a table with old brass track and some beat-up unsellable freight cars, hours of fun while dad spends his money.
3. When you invite a modular club to your event, remind them to TALK to the public, not just huddle among themselves. (See previous post on clubs) Our club seriously considered establishing a position of "official greeter" but stopped having public shows before this policy could be put in place.
4. Hold a Timesaver switching contest, or a trivia game, or a "beat the clock" type game where the contestants have to assemble a running locomotive from the boxes of junk under the vendor tables. Give some of the door prizes for the winners of these events.
Thanks for the chance to vent
Kein
MisterBeasley Family ski trips kept me from all of the major shows this past winter, but I did get to one of the smaller shows a few weeks back. It was a 1-day event, held in a school gym. There were only a couple of operating layouts, but one was quite large and had a lot to look at. The vendor tables were all full, and they seemed to be doing a brisk business. I spent about $25, and I came away with a new car, a used car and a couple of kits. A year or so ago, I was at a show. I was talking to a vendor who was complaining that people weren't buying the big-ticket items, only the small stuff. I bought a bunch of junk from him - literally - stuff for my scrapyard. I found a treasure at that show, too - a new-in-the-box IHC Mikado for a bargain price. Like shopping at the LHS, we need to keep going to shows, too.
The big ticket items are hard to sell at local train shows since individuals local sellers do not take CC. I do not carry much cash to these shows so that limits my spending. Some of the business type sellers do take Credit Cards but you still take a chance on a bargain that may have problems and they cannot be normally be returned. This is probably the reason most of us spend $25 to $50 dollars on small items or books. Most of the sellers tables could not run the locomtives they had for sale so you take a chance on those.
CZ
I have found over the last few years train show attendance waning. The one show I attend most years seems to be turning more to a general hobby show than just trains.
It has R/C car racing, Slot car racing, R/C planes in the horse arena and this year an R/C Battle tank club showed up and put on a battle in the horse arena.
While I think some hard core train modelers might scoff at the mix of other hobbies at what was once a mostly train show. I have found many young faces peering at the dozens of layouts in awe, discovering trains for the first time. Perhaps including other hobbies and turning train shows into hobby shows is one way to keep the required cost down of putting on a good quality train show. The train show component of this show is as big if not bigger than it ever was. However there are now more things to attract more people. This can only be good exposure to our hobby.
My kids were lukewarm to going to the train show in the past. Now they and their friends very much look forward to it every year. I load them into the truck, they all get their Motorola radios so we can meet for lunch and stay in touch. I can shop in piece while they watch an epic tank battle or aerial dogfight in the horse arena. Life is good.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
The number of local train shows seems to be on the decline. One of the local clubs in Greensboro hold an annual open house/swap meet. Another club in Winston-Salem has an open house once a year. Not much else in the area. I miss the "good old days" when there were 6-10 train shows in a 100-150 mile radius. The Great Model Train Show" and Greenberg's have both abandon the Winston-Salem/Greensboro area. That that they were much to see for HO scale "scale" modelers. Need to get up with the NMRA Regional show (MER). I have never been to the National Model Railroader Association show. I have always been working. Would love to go to Howard Zane's Train Show in Timoniam, MD.
Craig North Carolina
Where do you guys live that you have 1-2 shows per month? I live in Knoxville and there hasn't been a show in almost 2 years. The last one was so bad I left after an hour and bought nothing. Most stuff is junk or overpriced and there were only 2-3 layouts,one was Lionel O gauge. They used to have 5-8 layouts, some quite large and impressive and I could spend hours there. NO MORE. I am thinking the interest here is not that high and the vendors/show management aren't making enought money to justify it. I only know of a couple of shows in the Atlanta area which is at least a 3 hour drive for me. Not worth it. Just my observations.
-Bob
Life is what happens while you are making other plans!
I've been at a number of train shows lately. The annual shows draw good crowds of vendors and visitors. The monthly shows, on the other hand, draw lots of visitors but fewer vendors. The last monthly show I was at had around a dozen empty tables in the main hall.
A lot of the things on sale were at previous shows. Lionel cars were on sale for $ 10 - $ 20 NIB.
Didn't see too much at list price, though. However, there are some things that you don't see at train shows - try looking for HO track.
The reason I brought up the other writer's quote and my recent observations at a local flea market/ swap meet is that many necessarily "frugal" modelers, such as myself, rely on these venues to improve our modeling circumstances, by buying used goods that we can use as projects, by obtaining structure kits that might be more costly online or at retail stores, etc. Given the recent loss of a longtime LHS in my area, these events are more critical now for me. I know there are bargains to be had online, but being there able to touch the merchandise is far more appealing.
I am sure that there is great variance, based on where and when swap meets are held, and in no way am I trying to say that there is a general trend, other than what I see locally.
Still, it's a bit depressing to walk the same aisles I travelled just a few months earlier and see less that I can "invest in" at my modest level. (sigh)!
Cedarwoodron
The number of vendors and attendees seems to have dropped over the last few years. I assume that the economic recession and high gas prices are the reasons.
But another reason might be that folks are reaching saturation. In my case, I have close to 200 freight cars and really don't need any more, even if I do fill my basement someday with layout. So while I'll buy a car or two over the next year if they interest me, I'm not likely to buy 20 or 30 as I have in years past. Same with locomotives - the 12 I have are more than I need for my envisioned operations. Similarly, I have gotten more selective in the other things model railroading as well.
Enjoy
Paul
As a member of a modular group and also a club that hosts an annual show I just have to add a few observations on this subject.This mostly applies to hosts of shows.
1. We used to do 9 to 10 annual shows a year. This year we only did 3. There are fewer shows to do.
2. The economies involved in doing multiple day shows have gotten way out of hand. As a modular group we make no money at shows. The last 2 day show cost me over $150 just in food, fuel and over night stay. That left nothing left in the wallet for buying items of interest. Hosting a show can help some of the vendors and modular groups by offering lunch or a donation to the club but rarely do.
3. Hosts of shows must think of the vendors and modular groups. Vendors that come to our show love the fact that we help carry and set up and take down for them. We also have coffee and donuts for vendors and groups in the morning. Our lunch vendor also gives discounts to vendors attending. Nothing pains me more then driving 2 hours to your show and spending $2 for a cup of coffee and $5.00 for a hotdog and coke for lunch.
4. Weather plays an important role in a successful show or a failure. Our show is in the spring. It does a better job attracting attendees in bad weather than good. Last year was a crummy spring and the first good day was the day of our show. Attendance was very poor. If there are a few good weather days in front of the show attendance is better. Snow and rain will not keep people away more than a sunny day will.
5. Mix it up a little. Having the tables in the same place every time tends to get stale. By just flipping a few things around it looks like a different show. Mix up the vendors with modular groups or different items of interest. Don't make the vendors compete with each other. Don't lump all the HO sales in with each other. Mix scales and items offered in the same isles. Make each and every isle interesting to all attendees. Don't let the attendees get the seen one show seen them all attitude.
Pete
I pray every day I break even, Cause I can really use the money!
I started with nothing and still have most of it left!
I agree that the local train shows offer fewer vendors and a lot of the items are in either poor condition (think junk) or close to MSRP. Sundays are NOT a good day to go to the 2nd day of a train show as a lot of vendors leave early or do not stay for another day. I rarely find scratchbuilding materials such as tools, paint, or powdered chalk. Brass dealers are even more rare. If they come, they do not seem to have a "handle" on what the local roads that would sell might been (so there is little stock) or their prices are very high (like I don't do my homework before I buy brass).
A lot of the vendors I used to see at shows are no longer there. I am certain that the economy has been difficult for modelers and vendors alike. And I understand that there is a cost involved in bring one's items to sell. I hope the trend reverses>
What I notice is that as DCC becomes more popular, and the newer generation of really nice and accurate freight cars is established, that at more and more train shows and swap meets you basically see folks selling off the same collection of 'no longer good enough' models -- and if you are lucky, they recognzie the white elephant nature of what they are selling and the prices are OK. Indeed in some ways a beginner willing to go with DC and previously enjoyed rolling stock can get going for relatively little money.
Ironically the same is true for older brass locos and rolling stock. Some of it was frankly not very good and it can be found often at decent prices -- but it pays to know what is junk and what is OK because otherwise some guys get stars in their eyes at the idea of "oh boy -- my first brass engine."
If you are lucky Billy Carr (or someone like him) the Tool Man comes to your train show.
http://web2.airmail.net/toolman/about.htm
That is a good chance to stock up on stuff that the LHS might not carry. If it is not something you otherwise can see before you buy, the fact that the prices may not be bargains is sort of irrelevant.
I particularly enjoy shows where small basement manufacturers have a booth. This is often your only chance to buy their products.
Dave Nelson
farrellaa Where do you guys live that you have 1-2 shows per month? I live in Knoxville and there hasn't been a show in almost 2 years.
Where do you guys live that you have 1-2 shows per month? I live in Knoxville and there hasn't been a show in almost 2 years.
We have quite a few shows here in the Boston area, but they are all concentrated in the pre-Christmas and early-spring timeframes. The big West Springfield show is in January, and I almost always miss many of the shows because they conflict with family ski trips. One of the bigger shows, Greenberg as I recall, tried a summer show one year. I guess they weren't happy with the results, because they never did it again.
I have been to a few smaller shows, generally hosted by one club or another, and I find that they are great fun, too. They may not have the number of vendors or layouts that the bigger shows do, but they are still well worth attending.
farrellaa Where do you guys live that you have 1-2 shows per month? I live in Knoxville and there hasn't been a show in almost 2 years. The last one was so bad I left after an hour and bought nothing. Most stuff is junk or overpriced and there were only 2-3 layouts,one was Lionel O gauge. They used to have 5-8 layouts, some quite large and impressive and I could spend hours there. NO MORE. I am thinking the interest here is not that high and the vendors/show management aren't making enought money to justify it. I only know of a couple of shows in the Atlanta area which is at least a 3 hour drive for me. Not worth it. Just my observations. -Bob
Bob,If you lived in Ohio you could attend a show every weekend from September to April but,that could require 3 or more hours travel time.
One of the best shows in the State is the Berea show since the show covers 4 buildings.Of course for N Scalers the show to attend is the Ohio N Scale weekend.
I am at the point were I attend 5 of the better shows a year.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
I have not attended a train show since the 1980's, why should I pay $7-10 and sometimes parking to get into a show, where I may not find anything to buy. I can find the same item from an internet seller or E-Bay and not have to put up with the crowd, high priced food and now high priced gasoline to get there.
Rick
Rule 1: This is my railroad.
Rule 2: I make the rules.
Rule 3: Illuminating discussion of prototype history, equipment and operating practices is always welcome, but in the event of visitor-perceived anacronisms, detail descrepancies or operating errors, consult RULE 1!
dti406 I have not attended a train show since the 1980's, why should I pay $7-10 and sometimes parking to get into a show, where I may not find anything to buy. I can find the same item from an internet seller or E-Bay and not have to put up with the crowd, high priced food and now high priced gasoline to get there. Rick
I've gone to shows, paid my entry fee, and walked out with nothing but a smile. I enjoy seeing operating layouts, and looking at what people are doing for scenery and weathering. I think of the entry fee as the "cost of entertainment," and it's a better deal than going to the theater to see most movies. If I see something I want for a reasonable price, I'll buy it, but I realize that it's going to be cheaper to buy many things online.
Rick,If you can walk through the Berea show and walk out emptied handed you must have not walk through the shows 4 buildings..There is a mecca of deals,hard to find items,parts, and nice layouts..
The admittance cost is minimal and there's lots of free parking.
My biggest gripe about the show?
No apple pie.
I made it to the West Springfield Ma Train Show since 8 or 9 years in a row and will go as long as health will permit. To me it is a (4 days 7hours drive one way) vacation trip with friend and quite frankly, price of gas, entry fee, parking cost, food, lodging is not a concern. I don't care about bargains what I want is diversity and brand new offering in quantity. I want to see many well put together layouts and see what is coming from manufacturers.
Jack W.
BRAKIE farrellaa: Where do you guys live that you have 1-2 shows per month? I live in Knoxville and there hasn't been a show in almost 2 years. The last one was so bad I left after an hour and bought nothing. Most stuff is junk or overpriced and there were only 2-3 layouts,one was Lionel O gauge. They used to have 5-8 layouts, some quite large and impressive and I could spend hours there. NO MORE. I am thinking the interest here is not that high and the vendors/show management aren't making enought money to justify it. I only know of a couple of shows in the Atlanta area which is at least a 3 hour drive for me. Not worth it. Just my observations. -Bob Bob,If you lived in Ohio you could attend a show every weekend from September to April but,that could require 3 or more hours travel time.
farrellaa: Where do you guys live that you have 1-2 shows per month? I live in Knoxville and there hasn't been a show in almost 2 years. The last one was so bad I left after an hour and bought nothing. Most stuff is junk or overpriced and there were only 2-3 layouts,one was Lionel O gauge. They used to have 5-8 layouts, some quite large and impressive and I could spend hours there. NO MORE. I am thinking the interest here is not that high and the vendors/show management aren't making enought money to justify it. I only know of a couple of shows in the Atlanta area which is at least a 3 hour drive for me. Not worth it. Just my observations. -Bob
We attend the West SPringfield Mass show in January periodically. Unless weather is really bad, it is a 5 hour drive one way to get there, pay for parking, pay for entry and pay for motel after to leave the next day to come 5 hours to home. We find a all-in-one-day trip a bit much as there is 4 buildings of stuff and vendors to look at. Well worth the trip.
Syracuse is an hour and 15 mins away, so it can easily be done in one day for the show at the fairgrounds.
SO a 3 hour drive one way doesn't really seem so bad, if he were to search Ohio for shows to go to...
Larry.
When is the show in Berea? I grew up in Olmsted Falls and there were very few shows 30 years ago. I assume its at the fair grounds. I used to build and enter scale model cars in the fair when I was a wee lad. Won a few ribbons with them. My Mom still lives near there and I can time my vacation to go to the show.
PM me with info if you can.
Larry,
I'm also not far from Berea. If you could either post or message me the details for the show as well, that would be awesome. Thanks.