DCC - This is fun??

[mobilman44]

Jim,

Nicely written OP!  

 I have not read the subsequent posts as I don't want them to temper what I have to say in reply.

After almost 50 years in DC, I switched to DCC two years ago.  I never thought I would do it, as the electronic complications and fancy "bells and whistles" were intimidating.  Buttttt, after a lot of reading and questioning, I realized that one makes DCC only as complicated as one wants to do so.

Said another way, to get the basic operations (equalling/surpassing DC) out of DCC, its really no big deal.  Yes, there is jargon and DCC is less forgiving of poor wiring and maintenance, but being able to run trains independently - and use all those sound functions - is just a terrific experience.

I'm extremely happy with my Digitrax setup on an 11x15 two level HO layout.  So far I've only gotten into assigning numbers to locos, consisting, changing volume levels on sound locos, and a few other relatively minor and simple procedures.  The stuff that Mr. Sperandeo (who I admire very much) is wayyyy over my head at this time, and I doubt I will ever need or want to get involved with it.

I absolutely love the freedom of operating trains with DCC, and recommend it highly.

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

This thread has been very amusing to follow, no offense to any of the posters.

I use a DC system that is way more complex than what will fit in a 50 page manual, and I know a guy with a basement filling DC layout who has one Aristo Craft Train Engineer wireless throttle - period. His grand total electrical investment - about $200. I'm writing an "owners manual" (how to book) on my system - it will likely be 200 pages including wiring/track diagrams.

All comparisons of price or complexity are useless without an equal set of goals and a specific track plan to apply them to. And, I would add, a predetermined roster and operational plan.

Only then could one weigh the advantages, costs, and complexities of DC verses DCC.

I love all these reponses that say "but you can get a Digitrax Zephyr for only X dollars", as if that is the only cost involved. What is the point of DCC if it's not wireless? I have wireless with DC? I really liked the guy who said I could forgo my next two loco purchases and pay for a DCC system - ha, ha, not for my layout bub.

Conservatively it would cost me $2600 just to put non sound decoders in my existing loco fleet and another $2600 for the eight radio throttles, boosters, reversers, detectors, stationary decoders, etc, to replace my existing system. An existing system that is admittedly complex and expensive - but not nearly that expensive.

I've said this before, I'll say it again. ONE SIZE DOES NOT FIT ALL.

Now if you want sound, get DCC, save your self a lot unhappyness, learn about it and have fun blowing whistles, horns and ringing bells.

If you like "helper" operations it might be a good choice as well.

But if your set of goals is a little different from the mainstream, you may well want to learn a fair amount about what can be done, and was does not have to be done, with both DC and DCC before deciding.

If your one of those people who's "goals" change with the cycle of the moon, go DCC, it's more flexible - it may cost more, but it's more flexible.

BUT, If you know EXACTLY what you want to accomplish, and you know what your skills, interests and budget are, again, check out both.

If you don't need or want sound, if you plan to only run one train at a time, or if your layout is large but relitively simple in terms of trackwork, than DC may provide some good options. DCC can do anything that advanced DC can do, but in many cases at an even higher level of cost and complexity when you get into CTC, signaling, advanced turnout control, display running, etc.

Now for the most important point - there are lots of different ways to accomplish multi train operation using DC. Many of which, a great number of you reading this have never seen in operation. To assume that "block toggles" or "Atlas Selectors" and complex control panels are the only way to have multiple train operation with DC, would be incorrect.

If you have any interest in control theory, you might want to learn about:

Computerized Block Control

MZL Control by Ed Ravenscroft

Progressive Cab Conrtol

Just to mention of few of the more advanced forms of DC operation, commonly called "Advanced Cab Control" as a group, many of which include signaling and CTC dispatching built in - something that requires a whole new set of "stuff" with DCC.

One needs to know WHAT they want to do before deciding on the BEST or most cost effective way to do it.

Sheldon

[A. Wallace]

To each his own. I run DC at home, with acceleration and braking at 3 settings, based on Lynn Westcott's articles from the 1960's. I don't need DCC. As for sound, unless you are right next to the locomotive, it is hard to hear. We have some sound locos at our Club, you can't hear them 2 feet away. My interest is in scratch-building, and I resent those with other interests demanding that I run my trains the way they want to, and only that way; never mind what I like.

     I watch the "operators" at the Club; they spend more time looking for little numbers on carsides than moving trains, and even more time in shuffling car cards. If they like it, fine. Just don't tell me I have to install decoders in all my locos to run on a layout at a Club where I have been a member for 62 years, or resign myself to watching trains belonging to others, only.

     To each his own. Just don't try to stuff it down my throat. And no, I am not "off-topic". Too often, the DCC advocates try to claim it is "the only way to fly". There should be room for everybody in the hobby.

[tstage]

A. Wallace

Too often, the DCC advocates try to claim it is "the only way to fly".

Thankfully, A. Wallace, that doesn't seem to be the case in this thread.

Tom

[simon1966]

A. Wallace

As for sound, unless you are right next to the locomotive, it is hard to hear. We have some sound locos at our Club, you can't hear them 2 feet away.

Lucky you!  At least your club ,members bother to turn down the volume.  Sound locos, DCC or DC, running at high volume levels make such a racket that I get a headache if there are too many set too loud!

 

A. Wallace

     I watch the "operators" at the Club; they spend more time looking for little numbers on carsides than moving trains, and even more time in shuffling car cards. If they like it, fine.

Surely car card operations are equally applicable to DC or DCC?

Wallace, there are indeed some strong DCC advocates on this and many other forums.  However, I would not take strong advocacy as telling anyone what they should do with their own layout.

[Motley]

And to think, we almost made it 4 pages without any bickering...oh well.

[downtowndeco]

I remember a few years ago in another model railroad magazine they had an article explaining how great DCC was and how very simple and easy to use it. The only problem was it was something like an eight part article stretching over most of the year. :  )

[cudaken]

 Jim, don't go DCC! By the way, if you have picked up any more evil decoders off E Bay engines, I take some more please! 

 Your Monon Friend, Ken

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

"Until you truly understand just what DCC has to offer you will always be a non believer."

Here we go, someone trying to "save me" again. Funny thing is I use DCC on 5 different large layouts on a regular basis (once a week usually), one of which I designed and one I helped wire. But of course I just don't understand the "wonders of DCC".

Sheldon

[Doughless]

Okay.  Before rudeness and mindless competition gets this thread locked...  The OP was talking about an article that gets fairly deep "into the weeds" of DCC.

Previous decades of MR would have similar articles about DC systems, complete with spaghetti bowl schematics and squiggly lines, things that look like trap doors, etc.; complete with unique terminology such as resistors, capacitors, etc.  Building your own DC control system and other such things was a common theme of many pre-DCC articles.

The main issue here is not with the differences in technology impacting operating systems, but rather how deep "into the weeds" a person wants to pursue that aspect of the hobby.  You'll have to learn one system or the other fairly competently in order to pursue it that deeply.

Bickering over which one is better is just pointless. 

 

[selector]

Doughless

Okay.  Before rudeness and mindless competition gets this thread locked...  The OP was talking about an article that gets fairly deep "into the weeds" of DCC...

Wasn't too long ago Model Railroader was heavily criticized for being too light-weight, too commercial, and geared toward the newbie.  Now we get a serious article on the potential in something as mundane as a locomotive decoder and we hear that it is too hard, too complex, requires too much reading, too advanced, too techincal........

No good deed shall go unpunished in this hobby.

Crandell

[blownout cylinder]

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

"Until you truly understand just what DCC has to offer you will always be a non believer."

Here we go, someone trying to "save me" again. Funny thing is I use DCC on 5 different large layouts on a regular basis (once a week usually), one of which I designed and one I helped wire. But of course I just don't understand the "wonders of DCC".

Sheldon

I guess some feel the need to proselytize just like an old revivalist minister....

You see Sheldon...we have some who feel the need to increase market share....

And I have NCE DCC here....

[rrinker]

selector

Doughless:

Okay.  Before rudeness and mindless competition gets this thread locked...  The OP was talking about an article that gets fairly deep "into the weeds" of DCC...

 

Wasn't too long ago Model Railroader was heavily criticized for being too light-weight, too commercial, and geared toward the newbie.  Now we get a serious article on the potential in something as mundane as a locomotive decoder and we hear that it is too hard, too complex, requires too much reading, too advanced, too techincal........

No good deed shall go unpunished in this hobby.

Crandell

 Ain't it the truth!

               --Randy

 

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

blownout cylinder

ATLANTIC CENTRAL:

"Until you truly understand just what DCC has to offer you will always be a non believer."

Here we go, someone trying to "save me" again. Funny thing is I use DCC on 5 different large layouts on a regular basis (once a week usually), one of which I designed and one I helped wire. But of course I just don't understand the "wonders of DCC".

Sheldon

 

I guess some feel the need to proselytize just like an old revivalist minister....

You see Sheldon...we have some who feel the need to increase market share....

And I have NCE DCC here....

Barry, I know, I think they all work for Digitrax. What they don't know is if I did go DCC, it would be Easy DCC all the way, and they would still loose out.

Sheldon

[JoeinPA]

Reminds me of my high school days and the debates over Ford vs Chevrolet vs Dodge.  It seems to be about as meaningful.

Joe

[Train Modeler]

I don't know about that analogy.    I have both a GML SYSTEM and a Digitrax DCC system for a few reasons on a pretty large layout with a lot of sound locos.

I'm 2nd in a 3 generation modeling family.   My generation represented holding onto the past, while moving on to the future--I know, that almost sounds corny.  

But my son's generation really does use computers in almost everything and so DCC allows him to use our computer for operating our layout.

Richard

[Geared Steam]

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

This thread has been very amusing to follow

I got a better one:

"How long does it take to read an unusually long post?"

0, because everyone skips over it.

 

[Doughless]

selector

 

Doughless:

 

Okay.  Before rudeness and mindless competition gets this thread locked...  The OP was talking about an article that gets fairly deep "into the weeds" of DCC...

 

 

Wasn't too long ago Model Railroader was heavily criticized for being too light-weight, too commercial, and geared toward the newbie.  Now we get a serious article on the potential in something as mundane as a locomotive decoder and we hear that it is too hard, too complex, requires too much reading, too advanced, too techincal........

No good deed shall go unpunished in this hobby.

Crandell

Crandell.

I remember those threads.  In defense of the OP, I didn't get the impression he was criticizing MR for writing an article like that.

Speaking of that topic, I think different editors have different influences.  I've noticed a more craftsman-ish flavor to the magazine's contents during Mr. Besougloff's tenure than what I remember over recent years.  While I'm not an electronics guy, I do appreciate the shift I think the magazine has made in being a little more "serious" so to speak. 

[AntonioFP45]

BRAKIE

I am probably in the minority but,I like switching cars using momentum and braking in DC and if I start using DCC/Sound then I will set the momentum with my Tech 6.

Brakie, your post gave me a pleasant memory "flashback".  In keeping with the title of the topic "RE: DCC - This is fun??"....................

A friend of mine installed a Digitrax decoder into my P2K ACL E8.  At the club, I had a lot of fun playing with the "Momentum" settings on the NCE wireless DCC throttle.  I challenged myself on the higher momentum settings to stop my passenger train without overshooting the stations.  I tried settings 7, then 8, then 9.  I thought that since I usually operated at prototyical speeds, stopping would not be much of an issue.  Was I mistaken!  That was tough, as my train would continue onward............. as if it weighed hundreds of tons. Really forced me to pay close attention to my station approach speed, just like the prototype.

I realized that setting 9 would be more realistic for a long heavy freight train, but nevertheless, for me, this was fun!  No way that I could have done that with my trusty old MRC 2500.

I agree with the OP that the jargon involved with this technology can potentially intimitdate modelers that aren't electronic savvy. But operating and maintaining a DCC equipped layout today does not require a degree in Digital Electronics.

[mononguy63]

Doughless

In defense of the OP, I didn't get the impression he was criticizing MR for writing an article like that.

Not at all, not at all. I'm just trying to have a little fun with a topic that soars so far over my head that I don't need to duck! And in the interest of full disclosure, there are two main reasons I haven't gone DCC: one, I'm an electronics coward and don't want to delve into that world, and two, I'm incredibly cheap with a shoestring hobby budget. The cost of a new system and new decoders isn't in the cards anyway.

I will stir the pot a little more here, though. I read lots of responses along the lines of "you have all these features available but most don't get used anyway, just program your address and go." Isn't that akin to buying a Ferrari and only using it to drive to the market a half-mile away?

Keep smiling

Jim

[Doughless]

mononguy63

 

 I'm an electronics coward and don't want to delve into that world.

 "you have all these features available but most don't get used anyway, just program your address and go." Isn't that akin to buying a Ferrari and only using it to drive to the market a half-mile away?

 

I haven't delved into that world because I'm lazy.  

As far as the Ferrari thing: I think of the same thing when the "demise of the LHS" "or "pre-ordering sucks" threads pop up.  Like the LHS owner having to order a minimum quantity from the distributor just to get the few items he really wants.  Probably related to the way the crates are packaged in China or some crazy thing like that.  Costs too much to split 'em up, you know. 

Its the way of the times, corporate consolidations and all.  Package products so the customer has to buy more than he really needs.

Timely:  I was just thinking exactly the same thing while sitting in the McDonalds drive through today at lunch.  Ordered one of those packaged meals.  Cost me $7.  I got about 5 pounds of food and a half-gallon of coke, so if I look at it that way, I guess I got a good deal.

I think I'll go back to ordering off of the value menu.

Good night everybody......

[selector]

Jim, yes, it is like that, and that is why I used the analogy of the advanced DSLR and only taking your kids' birthday photos with it once a year.  You can have the world's best camera, but if all you do is focus, meter, and then point and shoot, flash or no flash, you might as well get a disposable with the plastic lens and use up the contents to the extent possible.

Folks, when I respond to the OP, I try to remember, or to make it a practice, to either quote or to name the person in my first line.  Or, if I respond to a later poster, I usually quote to make it obvious and to save everyone from some ruffled feathers if my point is sharp and seems to be broadcast.   In my reply a few posts back, I was merely making a general observation about the nature of the hobby as it is practiced today.  We still  have the old soldiers who lament for the old ways, and we have the newer soldiers who have a lot of gee-whiz stuff to use if they can afford it.    I was drawing an inference across a broad range of topics over the past several years, one of which is the criticism of the editing staff for being too stingy with the beef.  I saw this as a more gritty, beefy, article that should be right up the alley of a lot of us, especially those who are dabbling in DCC or who are getting ready to convert or try.

My reply was not meant to be a direct criticism of anyone, but just a drawing of attention to an irony that I saw.

Crandell

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

Geared Steam

ATLANTIC CENTRAL:

This thread has been very amusing to follow

 

I got a better one:

"How long does it take to read an unusually long post?"

0, because everyone skips over it.

 

Sorry that could not be reduced to a sound bite for you.

[maxman]

mononguy63

I will stir the pot a little more here, though. I read lots of responses along the lines of "you have all these features available but most don't get used anyway, just program your address and go." Isn't that akin to buying a Ferrari and only using it to drive to the market a half-mile away?

Club I belong to has a narrow gage portion (DCC) that is basically two separate loops with one three foot portion that is common to both loops.  When we have open house, it is operated from a pit in the middle and the loops extend away from the operator way out of arms reach in both directions.  A lot of the track is out of sight.  The "main line" turnouts are operated by Tortoise machines controlled by DCC accessory decoders.  There is a dual gage section, a portion of which is actually a reversing section for a standard gage wye.

During our last open house, I was able to keep two trains moving without incident, demonstrate the neat start up sounds of the galloping goose, and still talk to the public.  And while I was doing that, the standard gage engineer was turning his train on the wye.

There is no control panel, no turnout push buttons, no block toggles, and no fancy reversing section electric wiring.  Oh, and when I got distracted and lost track of the engines, I could locate them by using the whistle on the engines with the sound decoders that some seem to despise.  I only needed one controller.

The DCC system that controls this narrow gage railroad happens to be part of a larger 5 amp control system, but all of what I described could have be accomplished with one of the entry level DCC systems with the exception of the decoders in the engines.  (But if you want one of those nicely detailed narrow gage locos that are out there today, I believe that the decoder comes with.)

Yes, the article about all the momentum CVs was way over my head too, but I didn't need to fool with any of them to accomplish what I described.  More or less, all that needed to be done to get the engines to run was to program in the addresses, so I suppose you could say that I didn't need the Ferrari.

DC versus DCC is a matter of choice, and one can do what one wants.  All I'll say is that if you can get your basic DC system to do what I described, more power to you.  But there are no electrical geniuses at our club, and I'm pretty sure that if this part of the railroad had to be DC they would have torn it up, paved paradise, and put in a parking lot.

Regards

[Hoomi]

Motley

And to think, we almost made it 4 pages without any bickering...oh well.

In the nearly immortal quote from Monty Python and the Holy Grail...

"This 'ere's a 'appy day! Let's not bicker and argue about 'oo killed 'oo!"

 

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

maxman

mononguy63:

I will stir the pot a little more here, though. I read lots of responses along the lines of "you have all these features available but most don't get used anyway, just program your address and go." Isn't that akin to buying a Ferrari and only using it to drive to the market a half-mile away?

 

Club I belong to has a narrow gage portion (DCC) that is basically two separate loops with one three foot portion that is common to both loops.  When we have open house, it is operated from a pit in the middle and the loops extend away from the operator way out of arms reach in both directions.  A lot of the track is out of sight.  The "main line" turnouts are operated by Tortoise machines controlled by DCC accessory decoders.  There is a dual gage section, a portion of which is actually a reversing section for a standard gage wye.

During our last open house, I was able to keep two trains moving without incident, demonstrate the neat start up sounds of the galloping goose, and still talk to the public.  And while I was doing that, the standard gage engineer was turning his train on the wye.

There is no control panel, no turnout push buttons, no block toggles, and no fancy reversing section electric wiring.  Oh, and when I got distracted and lost track of the engines, I could locate them by using the whistle on the engines with the sound decoders that some seem to despise.  I only needed one controller.

The DCC system that controls this narrow gage railroad happens to be part of a larger 5 amp control system, but all of what I described could have be accomplished with one of the entry level DCC systems with the exception of the decoders in the engines.  (But if you want one of those nicely detailed narrow gage locos that are out there today, I believe that the decoder comes with.)

Yes, the article about all the momentum CVs was way over my head too, but I didn't need to fool with any of them to accomplish what I described.  More or less, all that needed to be done to get the engines to run was to program in the addresses, so I suppose you could say that I didn't need the Ferrari.

DC versus DCC is a matter of choice, and one can do what one wants.  All I'll say is that if you can get your basic DC system to do what I described, more power to you.  But there are no electrical geniuses at our club, and I'm pretty sure that if this part of the railroad had to be DC they would have torn it up, paved paradise, and put in a parking lot.

Regards

Maxman, one question, how does the operator know the turnout numbers to operate them from the throttle? A track diagram, with numbers, even without any electrical devices, is still a control panel in my mind.

Now a simple comment - if what you discribe above is your desired goal, you NEED DCC. Nothing about what you discribed is even remotely close to my needs, wants or goals.

As previously stated, sound alone is reason enough to go DCC, I don't want sound.

And, not wanting sound was a major factor in my consideration of other options.

Does your club have signaling or CTC?

Sheldon

[steinjr]

mononguy63

I will stir the pot a little more here, though. I read lots of responses along the lines of "you have all these features available but most don't get used anyway, just program your address and go." Isn't that akin to buying a Ferrari and only using it to drive to the market a half-mile away?

 "stirring the pot a little bit more", but your intent is still not trying to deliberately provoke a flame war, eh? :-)

 Speaking of pots - do you know what a potentiometer is? A variable resistance - you turn a screw, and that adjust the resistance. An electronic circuit that includes a pot allows you to adjust voltage. Could be used to adjust e.g. the max speed a model railroad engine will attain at a given track voltage.

 An electronic circuit does not need to include pots. An adjustment could be made by firing up your trusted soldering iron, removing the standard resistance, and soldering in another resistance, bigger or smaller. Or you could just shrug, and live with "that's the way it is, and it cannot be changed".

 The same principle can be applied to other walks of life. You certainly can drive a car without knowing how to adjust the air/fuel mix when the motor is idling. 

 But for those rare times when you actually want to adjust how something works, it sure is nice to be able to adjust things.

 No matter what kind of car you are driving.

Grin,
Stein

 

[blownout cylinder]

There are your potentiometers...heeheehee

This is a modular synthesizer...

[HaroldA]

selector

Doughless:

Okay.  Before rudeness and mindless competition gets this thread locked...  The OP was talking about an article that gets fairly deep "into the weeds" of DCC...

 

Wasn't too long ago Model Railroader was heavily criticized for being too light-weight, too commercial, and geared toward the newbie.  Now we get a serious article on the potential in something as mundane as a locomotive decoder and we hear that it is too hard, too complex, requires too much reading, too advanced, too techincal........

No good deed shall go unpunished in this hobby.

Crandell

 

AMEN.  Although I will admit my eyes glazed over when I first read the article but that was just me.  I coverted to DCC about two years ago and am still learning about its capabilities.  So after decoding (no pun intended) Andy's article, it was another source of very good information for me. 

Whether someone uses DC or DCC to me is a matter of choice.  There are strong feelings and opinions in favor of both and maybe to say that one is better than the other is reflective of our individual preferences.

[Anonymous]

I have to admit I have a little problem following some of the reasoning given in this thread and I don´t think this is due to my limited understanding of the English language.

Most of the DCC systems let you enjoy the benefits right out of the box, without fiddling around with those CV´s. If you are not happy with the way the system performs under the standard settings, you can change them, even if that will take a little experimenting. So what´s the issue? Each electronic gadget we buy usually comes with some sort of instructions, which most of us don´t read. We usually just jump in, but after a little while we start to explore the features, referring back to the manual. DCC is as complex or as simple as you want to have it.

We are living in an electronics world, if you don´t like it, may I suggest you venture into live steam?