I post this with some trepidation knowing I risk igniting another DC vs DCC flame war. Please know that is not my intent, and if it degrades so then I preemptively sincerely apologize. That caveat having been presented, here goes:
I was amused reading Andy Sperandeo's column in the March issue of MRR, in which he discusses momentum effects in switching. The parts that struck me were where he talks about "remapping Function 11 to F9" and this word-for-word quote, "...the brake subtracts an amount determined by CV61 from the value of CV4." I read that and had to ask myself whether he was still talking about model railroading or had gone on to doing his taxes. He talked about studying decoder manuals and pulling information from page 50 of the Diesel Sound User's Guide. Page 50!?!? Good heavens, I have no interest in reading a 50-page user's guide to learn the best way to optimize my engine's performance. I also have no interest in programming up to 61 different control variables to optimize my locomotive's performance. Where's the fun in that? If I want that kind of fun, I'll just go back to my workplace and run some of our engineering analysis software!
I'm quite happy thank you very much with my simple DC system. The less I have to deal with electronics in general, the better off I am. The last thing I want to do when playing with my trains is to have to think really hard about much of anything. Further justification in my own mind why I'm even less interested in making the switch.
Happy (and fun!) railroading
Jim
"I am lapidary but not eristic when I use big words." - William F. Buckley
I haven't been sleeping. I'm afraid I'll dream I'm in a coma and then wake up unconscious. -Stephen Wright
it took me a long time to partialy convert to DCC. I didnt care for the complicated and very computer technicaly written Digitrax system, despite having used it several times on others layouts in our local club. Then I tired a NCE system and loved it. Much easier to understand, manual written in layman's terms over a techo geek terms that I dont understand. While I dont go thru all those steps to optimize a single engine's performance. I do configure the basics, lighting, top speed and if any adjustments are needed to the speed steps. All very simple and listed in step by step procedures in my NCE manual. If you run any sound engines, or like to have special effects lighting on locomotives, then DCC is about the only way to go anymore. I also can use analog DC on my layout due to some older brass engines that I havent had the time or $$ to remotor and install a decoder. I fully agree that anytime a hobby becomes more like a job, such as spending any decent length of time programing a locomotive or getting lost in the manual that has terms that are more for an electrial engineer, then the hobby is nolonger fun and has become a job. Mike
LHS mechanic and geniune train and antique garden tractor nut case!
Showing my age again...
I thought I was in hog heaven when I bought a power pack with pulse control, momentum, and braking switches. As I recall, the last time I used it, was to run a train around the Christmas tree some sixteen or seventeen years ago.
When I built my Time Saver many years ago, I scratch-built a simple power supply circuit that provided the single speed with braking for the Time Saver game. I had a small, plastic enclosure with a 9 pin 'D' connector cord with the direction and brake switches, easily removed and stowed out of the way when the layout wasn't in use. At the time, we had two young children on my single income, and in our small home, this was the only layout that fit the available space and budget. I don't think it would have been any more fun to play with, had I been able to afford to equip the locomotive with DCC.
It's whatever works for any given individual. No debate needed - it's your railroad, and if you're having fun the way it is, then that's all that really matters IMNSHO.
"We do not quit playing because we grow old; we grow old because we quit playing." ~ Oliver Wendell Holmes
Jim,
Some folks - albeit DC or DCC - really get into the nitty-gritty of operating their trains and that's their prerogative. The beauty of either system is that you can go as deep or as shallow a swim in the pool as you want to.
If you like continuous running but I like switching, I might look at you and say, "What's the fun watching your trains do the roundy round thing*?" OTOH, I may like detailing the inside of a building or structure but you're only concerned with the outside appearance, you might look at me and say, "What's the fun in doing all that when no one is going to really see inside it?"
I operate DCC and enjoy it very much but I don't have to go to the same degree of "enjoyment" as someone else who has different goals and objectives than I do. Hey, to each his own. And no flaming needed in this discussion.
*FWIW, Jim, I actually like continuous running and switching. The RRs did both!
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
This discussion just highlights why model railroading is such a great hobby. There are so many different aspects to it,. It's up to the modeler to follow their own likes and interests and do less (or nothing at all) on some aspects.
It's also a chance to try things that you otherwise wouldn't think of doing. Any one out there who has never surprised themselves by learning something new from your railroad?
George V.
I am wit you!!
Making a gooey mess with plaster and getting it all over your hands and clothes isn't any fun, either. Or is it?
I've been a computer geek for over 40 years, so programming decoders is just another day at the office for me. Hydrocal, on the other hand, was a completely new experience when I got back into the hobby. I quickly discovered that I really enjoyed this primitive process, mess and all.
The many aspects of model railroading gives us all a chance to learn something new and different. There are so many facets to this hobby that we are constantly exposed to new opportunities for developing new skills, or learning more old stuff through prototype research.
How many people can get up any morning and choose if they want to be a carpenter, programmer, electrician, landscape architect, painter, bricklayer or brakeman that day?
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Ever heard the term "rivet counter" often used as a pejorative term to describe someone that is very focused on the details. The modeller that takes an off-the-shelf ready-to-run locomotive and then spends hours super detailing it to look exactly like a specific prototype.
Well it is the same with DCC, you can either simply plop a DCC equipped loco on the track, set its road number and run it with all the default settings of the decoder. The loco will run fine, and for many modelers, this is all they need to do to enjoy a DCC equipped locomotive.
Or the modeller can "super-detail" the performance and tweak the running characteristics, the lighting and sound, if so equipped, to their hearts desire.
It is entirely up to you how you choose to super-detail both the look and performance of your locomotive. Think of Andy's article as a super detailing piece.
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
You don't have to do ANY of that. And only the SOUND decoders have large manuals. And software like JMRI renders the gobbledygook in plain English so you cna make changed by simply clicking boxes or dropping down choices from a list.
The only thing you really NEED to do with DCC is give each loco an address - usually the cab number so there's nothign to 'remember'. That's all you HAVE to do, how much of the rest you do depends on how many features you actually want to use. You are free to use as many or as few as you want, just like you are free to set up a simple a/b two cab DC system or use something more complicated (and more flexible) like PCC or MZL.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
After recently trying DCC at a local club. I now find DC to be boring and mundane now. Granted that is my opinion and everyone is free to use what they wish,but for me. DCC offers so much more. Like running multiple engines with out having to have switches and blocks all over the place.
For all the simplicity I hear about NCE DCC systems. That doesn't justify the cost of the system. I've been looking at the different systems and NCE is simply to expensive. So Digitrax it is for me.
Like many before you, you have confused what you CAN do with what you MUST do, and posted a rant that it is too complicated.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
simon1966Think of Andy's article as a super detailing piece.
Electronic superdetailing. Hmmm, now there's an interesting perspective.
That is why I like the simplicity of my Bachmann EZ Command DCC system and their simple "DCC OnBoard" locos.
There ARE many CV {Configuration Variables} you can set/program/switch to get your loco "to do more realistic operations". I don't have to worry about them YET, but will as I upgrade my system to another and get more CV enhanced DCC locos. I will learn as I grow.
It all sounds complicated, but so did home computers in 1982, and look where we are now. You are on one typing your "complaint"
My new '06 Kia Sedona minivan has more complicated "configuration variables" on it than I might use, but I don't have a choice. It has: separate climate control for front driver and passenger, separate climate control for rear passgengers{kinda nice really} , a tire pressure monitoring system {which can be a pain in the butt as it goes off when temps change and air in the tires contracts/expands}, "electronic stability control system" {still not sure what that does}, and other computers and sensors to do who knows what. It has a key fob that is nice to lock/unlock doors, but I was perfectly capable of doing that myself. The one thing that DOES bug me about it is that unlike other vehciles with power locks and windows I've had, that the KiA does not automatically lock the doors when the vehicle is put into drive or reaches 15 MPH like my Grand Caravan does, for instance. The other annoying thing I found out about that key fob is that when I point it at my house door lock with an arm full of groceries, it won't unlock the durn door for me! {LOL}
But like the Stark Trek Borg: resistance is futile: you WILL be assimilated.
ANd so, I, Too, will learn to use/put up with my Sedona's new "toys", and any new toys that will follow on any other new car I buy in the future.
-G .
Just my thoughts, ideas, opinions and experiences. Others may vary.
HO and N Scale.
After long and careful thought, they have convinced me. I have come to the conclusion that they are right. The aliens did it.
tony314For all the simplicity I hear about NCE DCC systems. That doesn't justify the cost of the system. I've been looking at the different systems and NCE is simply to expensive. So Digitrax it is for me.
Tony,
Which of the NCE systems were you looking at? Cost wise, NCE's starter system (Power Cab) is actually slightly cheaper than Digitrax's starter system (Zephyr). Both offer features the other one doesn't have and the Zephyr has more power. (3.0A for the Zephyr Xtra/2.5A for the Zephyr; 1.7A for the Power Cab)
If features are your determining factor then that's one thing. If it's price, the Power Cab has the edge in this case.
Not a big deal. This is 2011 and we are in the digital age and the digital age is continually evolving. Deal with it or ignore it. Your choice.
In 1972, I started with a computer that used a teletype for data input and retrieval.
I am seventy and use PC's, laptops, cellphones and go wireless when outside the house, coffee shops, etc.
I will not go to iPhone or iPod use. They are nice but I do not need that instant a communication. Some want to control DCC trains with those.
I run DCC with a NCE Power Cab and mess with some CV's but have really no more needs than that.
That will continue to evolve as time goes on and it will get easier as the software improves. We are really in the beginning phase of DCC.
But the subject does provide Rant material for the bored. I am going to play with my trains.
Rich
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
The LHS near me has the 3 amp Zephyr Xtra for $179 that up gradable which is what I'm getting..
I am probably in the minority but,I like switching cars using momentum and braking in DC and if I start using DCC/Sound then I will set the momentum with my Tech 6.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
tony314The LHS near me has the 3 amp Zephyr Xtra for $179 that up gradable which is what I'm getting..
The Power Cab can be found for $149-$159 (discounted) and is also upgradeable. Even so, you're getting a very good DCC system with the Zephyr.
I really don't understand why the cost of a good DCC system is an issue? I mean, look at it this way, it's about the same cost as a single, sound equipped DCC locomotive! Or in my case, 2 locomotives. It's the heart of your railroad, without it you can't run trains!
I guess you DC guys compare it to the cost of a DC controller, which you can get for really cheap (less than $100). And then look at the cost of a DCC system and try to compare by prices. The DCC systems have a lot more engineering and electronics.
So.. the next time you spend $500 for 2 nice steam engines and don't even think twice about that. You could be getting a top of the line DCC system.
Michael
CEO- Mile-HI-RailroadPrototype: D&RGW Moffat Line 1989
mononguy63,Imagine a world where a mainline freight stalls on the grade. A helper comes out of a nearby siding, and pushes the train over the hill. At the crest, the pusher cuts off on the fly, then returns to it's siding. In this same world, imagine an engine terminal where all locos are parked where they can fit, regardless of size. Imagine a yard where two or more switchers could be moving cars around at the same time. This world is rather a fun place to be, and it's called "DCC".
For the rant about a 50-page manual for DCC, DC doesn't even have a manual. There are books and magazine articles, but every DC layout is different. For example, how would you trouble shoot a DC cab like this:
This is Cab 7 from my old RR club (we had 8 such mainline cabs). We were strictly DC and used these cabs for 45 years (they were updated to pot throttles in the late 1970's...before, they were rheostats). When something broke, you had to figure out how to fix it. There was no one to call, no help desk or expert online. You had to chase down wires, replace toggles, isolate wire bundles, etc. This is fun?DCC can be a chore, that's certain. But DC isn't all sunshine and roses, either.
Paul A. Cutler III
Choose your fun; pick your poison. Either system has it's pros and cons.
Motley I really don't understand why the cost of a good DCC system is an issue? I mean, look at it this way, it's about the same cost as a single, sound equipped DCC locomotive! Or in my case, 2 locomotives. It's the heart of your railroad, without it you can't run trains! ...
I really don't understand why the cost of a good DCC system is an issue? I mean, look at it this way, it's about the same cost as a single, sound equipped DCC locomotive! Or in my case, 2 locomotives. It's the heart of your railroad, without it you can't run trains! ...
So true. I just came back after 20 years and since I only had one working engine it was easy for me to go with DCC. After reading the forums for a while and seeing how much DCC/Sould locomotives cost I bought the Digitrax Super Chief Extra Duplex system. I consider it a long term investment and the cost is no where near what I will be putting into locomotives or scenery.
My main reason for going DCC is not to micromanage the engines. I like it because I can mix and match brands and not have to worry about speed matching.
HO & N scale. Digitrax DCC. Mostly L&N (Louisville and Nashville) railway using a mix of brands. Back in the hobby after a looooong absence.
tstage Choose your fun; pick your poison. Either system has it's pros and cons. Tom
Exactly! That's why I like my Tech 6. I can use DC or DCC locomotives by simply changing modes.For me that's a win since I don't want to add decoders to all my N Scale locomotives.
Well, I used DC control starting in 1959, converted to Dynatrol in 1991, moved to DCC (NCE) in 1990 which I still happily use. The move to DCC was the best move, and I am quite happy with it. I don't do all the stuff Andy does, instead I run my DCC pretty "stock" and would never go back to DC.
That's my opinion and I am sticking to it. What anyone else does or doesn't is of little concern to me.
Bob
Personally I swiched my small layout from DC to DCC for one reason only. The ablity to run multiple trains on the same track without dealing with the wiring issues DC would have caused.
Joe Staten Island West
Some people tune their cars on a regular basis, looking for the highest performance or greatest efficiency. They are looking to get absolutely the most from what they have. Others are perfectly content to drive merrily down the highway, doing only "normal" maintenance, satisfied with what they have. Neither are wrong. I think that is up to the individual, and THAT is what I absolutely LOVE about model railroading. Take what you like and leave the remainder for those who like that aspect. And besides, why do you beat your head against the wall? Because it feels so good when you stop.
Kevin
rrinker You don't have to do ANY of that. And only the SOUND decoders have large manuals. And software like JMRI renders the gobbledygook in plain English so you cna make changed by simply clicking boxes or dropping down choices from a list. The only thing you really NEED to do with DCC is give each loco an address - usually the cab number so there's nothign to 'remember'. That's all you HAVE to do, how much of the rest you do depends on how many features you actually want to use. You are free to use as many or as few as you want, just like you are free to set up a simple a/b two cab DC system or use something more complicated (and more flexible) like PCC or MZL. --Randy
Exactly. DCC allows a sort of "fire and forget" aspect to the running of locomotives. If you buy a $1800 DSLR body, and add a $3000 zoom lens, and then use it only at your kids' birthday party to show group photos......sure, it can be done, and SHOULD be done for the sake of memories, but if a $90 point-and-shoot would produce those and do an acceptable job, why get all the complications and spend all that money?
A decoder has many 'room's. They afford the interested user with many possibilities. Some of us don't read our manuals, and that can go for the point and shoot and for the expensive DSLR. And we never avail ourselves of the true potential the designers put into our hands.
It''s always a choice, mind you. Always a choice. My choice has been to get into the manuals and find out that you can set power sounds in a decoder for when you advance the throttle. My Tsunami steamers will roar loud and chuff louder when I apply more speed to the throttle, I learned that I can even control the 'dwell' time for that increased throttle response. If I want it to last many seconds, I can make the decoder do it. If I want the decoder to just blast out a few extra loud chuffs, I can make it do it.
It is up to each of us to define the inconvenience we want if we feel that it is inconvenient to actually have to learn about the products we elect to buy. Nobody holds our hands to the fire. No hoses down our gullets, and no one is holding our nose while they pour in the water.
Really folks, our personalities do to a large extent dictate how we approach this hobby.
Crandell
mononguy63 I post this with some trepidation knowing I risk igniting another DC vs DCC flame war. Please know that is not my intent, and if it degrades so then I preemptively sincerely apologize. That caveat having been presented, here goes: I was amused reading Andy Sperandeo's column in the March issue of MRR, in which he discusses momentum effects in switching. The parts that struck me were where he talks about "remapping Function 11 to F9" and this word-for-word quote, "...the brake subtracts an amount determined by CV61 from the value of CV4." I read that and had to ask myself whether he was still talking about model railroading or had gone on to doing his taxes. He talked about studying decoder manuals and pulling information from page 50 of the Diesel Sound User's Guide. Page 50!?!? Good heavens, I have no interest in reading a 50-page user's guide to learn the best way to optimize my engine's performance. I also have no interest in programming up to 61 different control variables to optimize my locomotive's performance. Where's the fun in that? If I want that kind of fun, I'll just go back to my workplace and run some of our engineering analysis software! I'm quite happy thank you very much with my simple DC system. The less I have to deal with electronics in general, the better off I am. The last thing I want to do when playing with my trains is to have to think really hard about much of anything. Further justification in my own mind why I'm even less interested in making the switch. Happy (and fun!) railroading Jim
I flubbed rather badly at trying to make a similar point a few weeks ago. You've done a better job of it.. However, because of my mistakes, I learned something in the process.....
I think the real issue is whether or not a person thinks complexity is fun.
Either system can be simple or complex. Just as can other aspects of the hobby such as detailing an urban street, or the underside of a boxcar, or getting the dimensions of NKP's Veedersburg Indiana depot accurate. Yes, to some folks, fussing with the electronics aspect of the hobby is fun. To others, maybe not.
You indicated that you have a "simple DC" system. As do I. Since I would not find a complex DC system to be very much fun either, I don't really think the type of operating system is the issue here.
Maybe its more about the manner in which you choose to operate your trains and the type of layout that interest's each of us that determines whether or not Mr. Sperandeo's article seemed like fun.
- Douglas
mononguy63Further justification in my own mind why I'm even less interested in making the switch.
If that justification helps you feel better about the choice you're making, great. But you're taking an extreme example and over-generalizing.
Most DCC users never mess with any of the stuff Andy Sperandeo was talking about -- and probably many never go further in the manual than the quick start guide. They select the engine, turn the throttle, and go. No blocks, no worries about reversing loops, just run trains.
That's the DCC experience for most people. And yes, DCC is a ton of fun.
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
Just wanted to add that the manuals for Digitrax are MUCH easier to read and understand these days than the original manuals. I wish people would say this more.
I saw an older manual at a friend's layout when I helped with scenicing and finally understood why people found them so intimidating! They were NOT written for laypersons. The current ones, in my opinion, are.
I'm not a computer geek or tech oriented guy but have not had any trouble with my Super Chief manuals at all. Very clear and written in plain english. I think it's time for the perptuation of the Digitrax nightmare manuals (once true) myth finally dies. I'd suggest comparing a current manual with NCE's or anyone elses and see what you think if you're going to move into DCC.
I have my share of beginner glitches and the relative fussiness of DCC with track shorts from metal wheelsets, etc. etc. but running more than one train at a time is priceless and protoypical and I can't go back to DC blocks/one loco at a time in a block. For me, having a Mt. railroad without helper service (just one example) seems...wrong.
For the OP if you haven't seen the website wiringfordcc.com it's an excellent intro/primer.
I have a friend who's layout I operate on and he IS into a massive amount of momentum. It's frustrating for some of the operators. I just add a "tich" or none at all. It's a personal thing and I usually run using mostly the manufacturer's default settings. I think if it's YOUR layout and you are familiar with stopping distances with a lot of momentum it's cool. For visitors/operators it can be "nail biting".
Raised on the Erie Lackawanna Mainline- Supt. of the Black River Transfer & Terminal R.R.