Kits VS RTR again.

[Anonymous]

Well, I'm going to weigh in here. I think the difference is lack of patience. Most folks now want instant gratification. I have been an RC airplane modeler for years. Love the satisfaction of building a good kit and then flying it. Not only is it satisfying, I know what's inside. I know how to fix it when necessary. I know when something is not quite right. In recent years, the guys in my club rarely build any more. They by ARFs (almost ready to fly) and spend their time flying instead of building. It may be that I live in Austin, Texas, where you can fly year round (ie, no winter indoor building season forced on us), but I miss seeing something different at the field.

Now for model railroading. I have always been interested. I am building my first layout (HO 4x8) with my grandson. We have some RTR, but we most have kits for our rolling stock. So far all of our structures are kits. He is absolutely LOVING the experience and so am I. I had not noticed the lack of kits, perhaps because I cannot compare to the old days, but I hope there will always be kits. They are so rewarding.

John Soule
Austin, Texas

[orsonroy]

No kits? Who are you guys fooling? There are more kits on the market NOW than there were 20-25 years ago! In addition to all the basic stuff from Athearn and Roundhouse (who are STILL making kits, no matter what the doom & gloom rumormongers claim), we've got Bowser, Branchline, Red Caboose, Intermountain, Accurail, ECW, AMB, NERS, F&C, Westerfield, Sunshine, LBF and at least two dozen other manufacturers cranking out kits. You could build one of each kit that's available NOW, and not be done building for 10 years!

True, what you see on the SHELVES are RTR. That's what's selling right now. Is that the herald of the end for the hobby? Not by a long shot. Most shops still have enough Athearn inventory to last for years, so the entry level crowd is covered. And the average modeler has far more money to spend on the hobby then they did 30 years ago. In 1970, $100 for a brass engine was an INVESTMENT. Today, $250 for a plastic steamer won't kill the budget of the average modeler.

Manufacturers are selling what will make them MONEY. That's one of the primary reasons they're making rolling stock. If the average modeler is buying RTR, it's because they want to. It's simple Economics 101. If some modeler is decrying the lack of kits and is being "forced" to buy RTR, he's not looking for kits.

And why is everyone crying about the lack of Athearn abd other shake the box kits anyway? Personally, I never got any satisfaction out of building a car kit in 5 minutes. Where's the challenge and pride in accomplishment in that? If you guys are complaing about no kits, switch to building resin. THAT will keep you quiet for awhile!

[MAbruce]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cjm89

If all kits would dissappear in HO scale, (that would be a very sad day.), I'd either get out of the hobby or move to N-scale.[V][:(]

Hey, I've been in N-scale all my life and it's really not all that bad. [:D][;)] They also say that I have a chance of getting out of the asylum in a couple of years if the medication keeps working. [:P][(-D][(-D]

It’s interesting that RTR vs. kits has not been that big an issue in N-scale. This is mainly because there have not been that many kit offerings over the years, and N-scale has always been dominated by RTR from the start.

But I do find it odd that even in N-scale, kits seem to be a hard sell. MDC/Roundhouse had been clearing out their N-scale rolling stock kits at dirt cheap prices lately. Much of my fleet is made up of these kits, and I find it hard to understand why they didn’t sell better. I really don’t even consider them “kits” because they only have a few basic parts. They take minutes to assemble – certainly not nearly complex as HO kits.

Oh well, times change.

[BRAKIE]

I like the better RTR cars but ,never did care for car kits with a zillion and one iddy biddy pieces..I like the "shake -the-box-kits..As far as RTR cars I would rather build my blue box cars to my standards then to buy the BB cars as ready to roll and still need to bring them up to my standards.I like the newer RTR cars from Athearn.I also like Atlas,Walthers and Intermountain RTR cars.
I have several KD cars but,these cars need slight more attention due to the way KD makes their cars..These cars are built with colored plastic which leaves a high shine..So the cars need dulcoated or weathered..As far as SOME of the Walther's cars they are no more then RTR kits.You will need to add the ladders and in the case of their cabooses drill holes and hadd the grabs..So how can Walthers call these cars RTR??? [:O] [}:)]

[Anonymous]

Trainnut1250, I related what I was told by a retailer and I found in his shop what he said, to be true. People are buying RTR over kits, you say this yourself. The retailer is responding to the trend in the hobby that the manufacturers are also responding to; RTR over kits! Although you disagreed respectfully, you are still wrong!

[Anonymous]

Lemscate,

I met the president of Red Caboose at O scale west a few years ago. When the subject of kits came up, he said that they were going to go more in the directon of RTR because the sales were stronger than kits. However, I have noticed that they have re-run a few kits since then.

Guy

[Anonymous]

Lack of kits...???? I respectfully disagree. I have six big boxes full of kits awaiting assembly. I am always buying more. Search kits on Ebay and see how many items come up (I just searched and came up 5542 entries in HO). Most of the guys I know have more kits than they will finish in their lifetimes. Maybe my friends are fanatics (I know I am, see my handle) but I think that many kits are bought and never built. They will be passed around for many years to come. Some are more expensive on resale, but I find I usually pay less than the original list on Ebay.

I don't see ap problem with RTR and I agree with Lemscate on the quality thing. Another angle to this is that many very cool kits are produced by guys in their garages or by small companies as a labor of love. Most of these kits are by necessity limited run items because these guys are small fish. If you like some of the obscure stuff, buy it because the guy may not be around next year if you don't. Most of these offerings don't make it to the LHS for a variety of economic reasons....

I enjoy kits and I haven't really felt that availability is a problem...If it gets to be in the future, there is always scratchbuilding...

Guy

[DSchmitt]

RTR usually sells better even at a higher price.

1. People who have never built kits do not realixe the pleasure and sense of accomplishment gained.
2. People who have tried to build kits and been fustrated.
3. People who find building the kits boring.
4. People who want a large fleet and prefer to do other things with their time. (like constructing a layout, building scenery, or operating trains)

While "shake the box" kits are easy and can be assembled quickly, some of the brands mentioned are not shake the box and take quite a bit of experence, skill and time to build. Even a shake the box can be fustrating to a young and/or inexperenced modeler.

I quit buying Intermountain N scale kits and started purchasing their RTR because after I built half a dozen box cars and refers successfully, I found them to be both boring (since they are all the same) and fustrating (due to fragile and small difficult to place parts). The first IM RTR's I bought were tank cars because I messed up every tank car kit I tried, either by breaking or losing parts, or damaging the paint.. Considering the number of IM cars I have, I have actually saved money and prevented a lot of fustration by paying a little more for their RTR.

[Anonymous]

There is a pretty large discrepancy which I feel needs some heavy duty clarification. That is RTR vs. kit, and high-quality vs. low[er] quality.

I hate it when people confuse RTR and kit with levels of detail and running ability. Ready to run means just that--it is ready to be put on the tracks and made into a train. A kit must be assembled first. The status of rolling stock in the box implies nothing about the actual quality of the piece. All of the low quality toy train junk comes RTR, and resin kits, some of the best there are, need to be assembled. Please do not confuse RTR vs. kit with degrees of quality!

When most people say that RTR is better because of more details or better paint or whatnot, they actually have no argument for RTR. They have an argument for product quality. It is truly sad that the manufacturers cannot see this distinction, and produce the most worthwhile rolling stock only in RTR form, and the not-quite-as-good rolling stock in kit form.

However, I must give kudos to Red Caboose, as they offer their fine quality products in both RTR and kit form. They are the same products, just different in the time and effort required to get them running (and of course, price). I'd like to see their sales of kits vs. RTR, as that would be the most accurate marketview yet (although biased towards higher end markets).

[Anonymous]

The mental image of children firing Grimy black at the cars for the joy of it brought a smile to my face.

You just have to take and post that pic. I bet you the car looks like a lump of coal.

[simon1966]

This evening, Andrew, 7, built a UP flat car. Christopher, 4 1/2, built a B&O pulp wood car. Both Athearn BB and both cost under $5. They needed some help as little hands struggle with Kaydee couplers and the difficult to install pocket covers, but within 45 minutes or so, they had 2 freight cars ready for weathering. Out to the garage we went for them to have their first go with my new airbrush. A liberal shot of rust and grimy black and they are thrilled with the results. The UP car is now well beyond recorgnition for copyright infringement [:D]!! This is what my hobby is all about! I think I own 2 R to R freight cars. Both were purchased at liquidation prices at GATS shows. I derive little or no satisfaction from them. This is one customer who will continue to purchase kits for as long as they are available!

[jsoderq]

One thing missing from all this is the fact that many people today have not learned how to use tools. The kids in my neighborhood can't even fix a flat on a bike. The neighbor can't fix a broken window. Many don't even know what a lathe is, let alone how to use itOne reason for prefab housing is there is no one to build stick bilt. So besides saving time , rtr avoids the problem of what tool to use.

[TrainFreak409]

I like the Athearn rolling stock kits. In my opinion, Ready to Roll/Run rolling stock is too expensive. Why buy a 200 ton crane RTR for $25.00+, when you can easily build one for $13.95? Some people are just too lazy to build kits. But, others might be afraid that they will not be able to build it to their expectations. That's what I thought when I purchased an Athearn 200 ton crane kit, but it turned out fine.

But, I prefer to buy RTR locos, for the time being.

[8]TrainFreak409[8]

[garr]

Student of the Big Sky Blue and Highiron,

I also grew up building models and I still do since I model the Georgia Railroad. However I do buy rtr when available. This has not hurt my modeling ability, if anything, it has improved it. To me the bottom-line standards have been raised by the quality of most of the rtr models.

As far as model or kit availability, what I call rolling scarcity has always been a problem. Athearn never marketed their blue boxes as limited runs, however their production cycles did, at times, create availability problems. Other manufacturers also operated similarily.

Models seem to never truely be limited run. This marketing ploy is used constantly but almost every model has additional runs and the most popular road names get repeated in the reruns. This pattern eventually saturates the market which allows the creative modeler to find the model at shows, meets, on ebay, etc. long after production was stopped.

The biggest problem I see(as partially stated in my reply above) is the lack of discounted prices by most manufacturers on undecorated/unassembled models in comparison to the same models' rtr price. The savings from not decorating and assembling should be passed on to the modeler.

Jay

[Anonymous]

I try to keep a couple of kits on my bench ready to be assembled( I guess I'm anticipating them doing away with kits.) Some people may not get their satisfaction from kit building..A lot of beginners not only buy RTR, but also hire someone to construct the layout as well.. All they have to do is write the check.. You have 20 to 30 advertisements for layout construction in MR every month. I would hate to get dependant on the manufacturers for RTR stuff

[garr]

Mark,

I think there is room for both the rtr and kit modelers.
The problem is that manufacturers are making it hard to resist the convenience of well decorated and, in a lot of cases, road specific detailed locos and cars. Used to be that the best paint jobs were self done but on most of the better manufactured models it is hard to beat the factory applied finish.
This trend seems to have really become visible, to me at least, about the time Atlas introduced the Dash 8-40B. Before this, undecorated models were prized by a large number of modelers and were quickly sold out. But with the Dash 8-40B Atlas covered most, if not all, options of the prototype roadnames and the undecorated units lanquished on the shelves. Modelers chose convenience and quality of the decorated units even though undecorated units were available.

I don't think this trend hurts the hobby. For those who choose, undecorated versions are available for nearly all the current rtr models and, in most cases, the undecorated versions are unassembled, at least to a lesser extent than the decorated models. It does seem, however, the manufactures should have a lower retail price for the undecorated models (as Atlas does or did).

These options only help the hobby. RTR models help time-strapped modelers, new and old, enjoy the hobby more and, without this convenience, these individuals may not be model railroaders at all. Undecorated models, in kit or semi-kit form, are available for the "true" craftsmen. And the manufacturers' bottom line is increased by the higher selling price of the rtr models, which also makes them stronger and will hopefully encourage them to keep investing in the hobby.

Jay

[Anonymous]

If all kits would dissappear in HO scale, (that would be a very sad day.), I'd either get out of the hobby or move to N-scale.[V][:(]

Look at Intermountain, they hardly have any kits anymore. But the thing is, that THE MANUFACTURERS PRODUCE WHAT SELLS. So there are too many people buying the expensive R-T-R stuff. (or the mfg'ers just want to make an extra $5-10 for them.) So if we want kits made, encourage everyone you know in the hobby to buy kits more than the R-T-R cars.

Just my 2 cents.

[Anonymous]

I went to a model show here in the UK last weekend, I checked out one of the traders who specialises in US trains. Appart from Branchlines and half a dozen very tried looking Accurail and MDC boxcar kits the entire rest of his stall was RTR.

It doesn't take a genius to work out why: a Branchlines Yardmaster boxcar kit costs £6.50 and a Kadee assembled boxcar £25. I would warrant a guess that it doesn't cost nearly 4 times the amount to assemble the parts ... For this reason I don't think that simply not buying RTR products will solve the problem.

I agree with some of the sentiments expressed here, and go a little further, I simply don't understand why you would want to buy RTR items when you can have the satisfaction of putting a kit together, then perhaps making detail modifcations along the way to end up with a unique model.

[Anonymous]

I grew up experiencing shops filled with kits. In the day everything was produced constantly except for some really exclusive limited run items that cost alot to make. The kits would fill the shelf and part of the fun is going thu them looking for the one gem to take home.

I had once an oppertunity to model Athearn's 40' Billboard reefers and we would take them home to build. Unfortunately they are out of production and with my skills much improved over what they were in the beginning I would just like to build these kits again.

I am reluctant to ba***he manufactors but I have understood that there is money to be made in business if you can get the volume of orders to pay for the costs of the production run before moving on to the next item...

What I have a problem with is the availibility of the items to the modeler who may not have the funds to take advantage right away of a item that is sold out before it hits the store.

I would like to see Hobby kit or RTR makers maintain the inventory for those who may have missed the first round for at least 3 years. Take Walther's Troop Train set as a example... I dont have the means to model this set at the time. But I do feel the urge to go outside the budget knowing they may stop production and will have to pay inflated prices at a later date for these items. This is not what the Hobby is about.

You can add "Finding out of production" items to the list of required skills in the hobby.

However, inventories are low and prices creep up and people who are not able to take advantage of these so called limited run, hurry order now (2 years before actual item hits stores) or announcements promising precision and customer satisfaction while the item in question is still a draftman's dream.

All these things will drive people out of the hobby eventaully. Those that remain have the means and the ability to enjoy the trains while others are left to browse shiny catalogs wondering of desired item will be made again someday.

I apolgize if this rant offended some folks but I feel strongly that the hobby needs consistent and complete inventory of everything from the .50 cent paint brush up to the 10,000 dollar Trix mega big exensive mortage breaking boy. In order to have a strong base and good customer support, hobby shops should be able to fill orders based on what people want than to be "soliticated" for special order items costing alot of money and certain to be delayed in production.

In a hobby shop kits and supplies as well as associated detail parts and raw materials make the bulk of the money spent not the mega expensive big boy that will never be made again (At least until another manufacter released thier own big boy)

The cyclic swing from frenzied ordering before the production is closed to the low of slack water low tide of waiting for the next big items while scraping empty hobby shops is NOT what a modeler wants to do.

Lee

[Anonymous]

I to am dismayed at the lack of kits in this hobby. Like you I grew up in what is apparently now the "old school" of model railroading. I agree that buidling models, be they freight cars, buildings, or even the odd airplane or two, is a fundamental part of this hobby. With all this ready to run taking over, I fear that a gap in fundamental skills will soon develop and and when that happens the hobby will begin to die.

There is a simple way to ensure that kits return to store shelves once more. Only buy kits when one goes to the hobby store, and when the manufacturors see that the RTR isn't moving, kits will soon return.

James.

[Anonymous]

While visiting my favorite hobby shop, Carr's Hobbies in Duluth, MN. I asked the owner if people where starting to complain about the lack of kits and dearth of expensive, ready to roll equipment. He said that yes, they are hearing this complaint more and more often. He said it is not only the model railroad hobby effected, but it is appearing to cover all aspects of the hobby industry. He said he would love to have his shelves stocked with kits, however, they seem to just sit there and gather dust. Availability of kits is a problem, there are less and less kits. I found their inventory of Roundhouse and Athearn kits to be dwindling down to the ridiculous.

I fear that in the future people will no longer understand the great satisfaction there is in building a kit. The modeling hobby to me has always been the above. The hobby is called model railroading and to me model means to build, be it a kit or kit bash or built from scratch, modeling is building!

I can't make the industry do what I think is right. I understand it responds to what the public wants. However, if this is the direction the hobby is going, it certainly leaves me cold and sad!

Is this the direction you all want the hobby to take?

Why isn't this topic discussed in the modeling media? I'll tell you why. If the courts feel that awarding MTH 40 million from Lionel is just, then I'm wet behind the ears about how much money is involved in this hobby!!!!!