Kits VS RTR again.

[on30francisco]

I believe there is room in this hobby for both RTR and kits. I prefer to buy locomotives RTR. I have built some kits of structures and rolling stock and although they came out good, I found them boring and did not enjoy assembling the petty items included in the kits (eg. trucks). For myself I find scratchbuilding structures and rolling stock much more enjoyable, less frustrating, and much easier than assembling most kits. I did enjoy building kits from Foothill Model Works because the instructions are very precise about all phases of the assembly including painting and weathering techniques.

[Anonymous]

Well - I read this thread before visiting my LHS... and NOW I feel comfortable enough to add my POV

There are so many skills used to build a layout (carpentry to leectronics as well as the obvious model making). That considered, there must be room for those (like me) who like to build our own rolling stock (just don't make me assemble the truck sideframes!).
as well as those who like RTR.

There are also those who build their own furniture VS those who buy it at Etahn Allen VS those who hire a decorator. There- another topic of discussion... and still no answer!

I just want to see a selection of BOTH... (heck - the old RTR was Lifelike, Bachmann, Tyco and Mantua- the cheap kind. So this new RTR stuff is an improvement - I think RTR over Kit is an obsession with the manufacturers, though)

[Anonymous]

Paul3
Where did I yell at anyone?

[Anonymous]

I honestly prefer kits (preferably Athearn Blue Box), although I did just buy and Athearn RTR UP 50' Boxcar for $15.00. It's very nice, I got my $15.00's worth. But, it does lack some features that come with kits. For example, the doors don't open, the coupler pockets stick out, and I've yet to figure out how to get the body off the frame. But, the bonus was that it came with metal wheels, which is good since metal wheels don't dirty up the track so much. So in the end, there are pros, and cons, but I still prefer kits.

[Paul3]

deschane wrote:

QUOTE: If you don't understand the pleasures of building a kit, please try one. Start with something easy. Athearn blue box, MDC, Branchline Yardmaster, etc. Give yourself time and don't get frustrated. It may take a couple, to build your confidence, but in the end, you WILL understand what a pleasure it is to do this.

Some people will never understand, and "shouting" at them that they will once they do is more likely to pu***hem away, rather than encouraging them. [;)]

Now, I build models. Heck, I still have 1/32 airplanes to finish building someday.

But the most critical thing about model railroading to me is that my models will run, and that I can make them run almost like the real thing. I can't say that about my M4E8 Sherman tank in 1/35th scale, nor can I say that about my Chevy Camaro model in 1/24th. But I can say that with my 1/87th scale boxcar.

To me, model railroading is all about running trains. Building railroad models, for the most part, is just one step on the way to running trains, just like building benchwork or wiring switch machines.

If I could afford to have all my railroad (benchwork, wiring, model building, scenery) built for me so that I could start running my Boston to Providence section of New Haven's Shoreline route on a perfectly manicured layout tomorrow, I'd do it in a heartbeat. The reason why I built my 25' x 50' HO layout is precisely because I could not afford to have it done, not for the pleasure of getting splinters. [:)]

Paul A. Cutler III
*****************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
*****************

[Anonymous]

If you don't understand the pleasures of building a kit, please try one. Start with something easy. Athearn blue box, MDC, Branchline Yardmaster, etc. Give yourself time and don't get frustrated. It may take a couple, to build your confidence, but in the end, you WILL understand what a pleasure it is to do this. It's a learning process that is easily gained and in the long run you will build the skills that will serve you a lifetime and you will be proud of your abilities.

I just think passing this learning experiance by will be a deep loss for you!

[Martin4]

I have plenty of kits that will take years to be built. But in every magazine I read each month shows new interesting items that are not available as kits. These are molded with much more precision and detail level than the Athearn blue box and MDC Roundhouse kits, with many hand applied parts; that hand should be mine ! I'm sure there will always be kits around but the choice is getting thinner. Walthers recently issued items that previously available only as built-ups (Golden Valley Depot etc) and I hurried to get them for my son's layout. I don't want to ban Ready-to-roll but I love to build and I would appreciate everything to be available as a kit. Especially the nice modern cars Atlas issued in the in the last few years.

Martin
Québec City

[Anonymous]

When I started in this hobby, we handlaid ties and spiked rail. Only the newbies used flex or snap track. If you were in a hurry to lay track or had a tunnel you would use Tru-Scale milled roadbed. I've built my share of Ulrich, Central Valley, Silver Streak, and Walthers old kits. I've also done some scratch building, but the "new" Proto time savers look a lot nicer then some of my work. I think that the RTR is for the person that doesn't want to build a kit but still wants a nice fleet.

I can remember when you would have never stated that you didn't build your own layout. I was at the Lone Star convention a couple of weeks ago and was talking to a man about his layout as we looked at the track plan, when I ask him how far along it was he stated "they're going to deliver it in about six months".

The hobby is going to go the way of the dollar (profit is not a dirty word), so if people want RTR more then kits so be it. I can still buy Silver Streak and all of the others on eBay . I've got two FSM's in different stages of construction and work on them when i'm in the mood. If I want a fast scene filler, I purchase a plastic kit and get it done in a couple of days.

I also look for the old kits at the GATS and local train shows.

I feel like i've put in a nickle instead on my 2 cents

Have a good day
Bob Stephens

[Anonymous]

Years ago, I used to build model sailing ships. I'd get a styrene model and spend a month or two putting it together, painting it, and rigging it. I enjoyed myself tremendously. Then, in 1980, my wife pulled one of those wifely tricks on me. She bought me a wooden model of a J-Class racing sloop. The hull was a roughly shaped block of wood that I was supposed to cut down to match paper templates. After three months of working on the hull, I decided that building this model was not fun! In fact it was so much not fun that I haven't built any more sailing ship models to this day.

A lot of people just getting into model railroading have similar experiences. They'll start working on a kit and it'll be a disaster. How many of us have cut a piece off of a sprue and watched the piece fly off towards the next county? If that happens enough times (say, twice), then the novice will decide "kits are not fun, I'll stick will RTR."

[Anonymous]

I'm not saying anything about weather one (RTR or kits) should be available, or not. In an ideal world, both could certainly share the market. However, the market is driven by what sells and less and less of you out there are buying kits.

[fec153]

Trackster- I agree. However just can't afford them. Oh I could buy one a month or so,
instead of of 2 or 3 kits for the same amount of $.

[Anonymous]

For me, It"s RTR, I"ll gladly let someone else add all those loving little details, I"ve built a lot of kits, but the older I get, the more appealing the RTR becomes.


Mac

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Trainnut1250

Lack of kits...???? I respectfully disagree. I have six big boxes full of kits awaiting assembly. I am always buying more. Search kits on Ebay and see how many items come up (I just searched and came up 5542 entries in HO). Most of the guys I know have more kits than they will finish in their lifetimes. Maybe my friends are fanatics (I know I am, see my handle) but I think that many kits are bought and never built. They will be passed around for many years to come. Some are more expensive on resale, but I find I usually pay less than the original list on Ebay.

I don't see ap problem with RTR and I agree with Lemscate on the quality thing. Another angle to this is that many very cool kits are produced by guys in their garages or by small companies as a labor of love. Most of these kits are by necessity limited run items because these guys are small fish. If you like some of the obscure stuff, buy it because the guy may not be around next year if you don't. Most of these offerings don't make it to the LHS for a variety of economic reasons....

I enjoy kits and I haven't really felt that availability is a problem...If it gets to be in the future, there is always scratchbuilding...

Guy

Exactly. I'm one of those types of guys. In today's MR world, the RTR products are definately making their presence known. In my MR world, I have a mixture of both. But, kits are ahead of RTR about 95% to 5%. The 5% include several items that are not available as kits. I custom paint and detail all locomotives, and unless you aren't going to have industries like Coal mines, Cement plants, Quarries, and Oil Refineries, then you'll have to build a kit or two. American Model Builders are another source for great kits to build.

I certainly hope that the market doesn't eliminate the freight car kits and undecorated locomotives. It would put a hurt on my MR enjoyment!!

[Anonymous]

Has anyone considered the attention needed to build a kit?

When the microwave was invented for home cooking we all thought that the stove is going to join the junk pile.

Now that life is flying by too fast to catch a breath in today's dog eat dog world it is wonderful to actually sit and build something. Attention spans and skills improve over time.

I have bought RTR as well. Sometimes as a *Gasp! a starting point for a kitbash. I built some Athearn undecorated tank cars into Domino's Sugar Cars using paint and microscale decals. I thought here were very nice cars worthy of the rail. Athearn released the Domino's RTR a few months ago and I ended up buying two because they looked alot nicer than mine were.

[Isambard]

Here's another viewpoint from one who in retirement returned to HO modelling after an absence of 50 years.
In those halcyon days of my youth I enjoyed putting together kits from Ulrich, Varney, Central Valley and others, and creating buildings and structures from scratch following instructions from Railroad Model Craftsman or Model Railroader.
Two years ago, I decided to get back in the fun, despite having lost such manual hobby or other skills and knowledge as I had then, and not having appropriate tools and a decent area to work in. Also despite the fact that my manual dexterity, steadiness of hands and visual acuity aren't quite what they used to be.
I decided that it was essential that I get the Grizzly Northern Railway up and running quickly (on a club layout for the time being), so I bought, or received as gifts, a number of ready to run Athearn, or completed kit, freight cars and several Bachmann Spectrum steamers and got running. In parallel I also started buying and assembling a number of kits, from Intermountain, Red Caboose, Accurail and Roundhouse. Assembling these has been frustrating at times as I re-learn skills and adjust to my annoying physical limitations, however it has been fun and I'm learning to take my time and enjoy the process as much as the end result. Ah, maturity!
From my point of view, there is a marvellous range of stuff available to the modeller, whether ready to run, shake the box, kit bash or build from scratch and I hope all categories will continue to be available, so that modellers of every persuasion can enjoy the hobby.
Now I must get on with planning surgery on my 2-8-0, to install an Elesco feedwater heater, where I'll tax my skills at a new level. Oh yes, two Tichy ore cars also await my attention-now there's a challenge!

[fec153]

Affordability. rtr too expensive.
Expertise. Arthritis-Nerve damage.
Love the BLUE BOX.
Going to the Deland Fl. train show on the 24th,get me some more KITS.
Phil

[Anonymous]

Some of it I suspect is that Kit builders are going heavily into Prototype Modelling, while most of the former BB market is going RTR.

I know my local hobby shop has about 1/3 of it's total kit stock in Resin, and they appear to be turning over better than the Plastic. I know there's about 5 of those in my to build pile. I don't see as much of a market for the BB, MDC or Accurail level kits. They're low-detail compared to Red Caboose, Branchline or Resin kits, and the RTR versions are a lot better (Better detail, better running).

Of course, I am the guy who pays RTR money for a kit (Resin isn't cheap.) I build for fun, so Resin kits are a better choice for me than RTR. And I like good detail, 75% of my 50-odd pieces of Rolling Stock are Branchline Blueprint, and much of the rest is P2K.

[Anonymous]

I'm 14 and I buy a few cars each month. The only ready to run car I have is an Alska Grain car i bought on ebay for $15. All the others are Athearn kits. I bought my second undecorated car that I have to paint this week.

I prefer building kits because I can build the Athearn Kits pretty quick. I like the satisfaction of seeing the cars that I put together running better than my dads three RTR lumber cars.

Also the hobby shop that my dad and I buy our rolling stock from has enough kits to last along time. The guy that owns the store stocks very few RTR cars.

[IRONROOSTER]

First my bias - I have both kit and RTR and will continue to buy both.

I remember years ago when no "serious" modeler would even look at a plastic kit. [:D][:D] If the box wasn't full of wood and metal, it wasn't a craftsman kit. Scratchbuilding was the mark of the "true" hobbyist. Everyone moaned about how the hobby was go to the dogs because scratchbuilding was in decline.

The truth is that as long as the number of modelrailroaders grows, we all benefit: the manufacturers who can sell more, us the hobbyists who have a larger selection to chose from, the retailers who have more customers.

People today have more leisure time opportunities. They don't want to just do model railroading. RTR allows them to get a layout built and trains running in less time. This is a good thing, it keeps them in the hobby. The kits and scratch building supplies are still there. You may have to mail order them but you can still get them. This has always been true for a lot of modelers anyway.

Today I can work on the layout, run trains, build kits, scratch build as I desire. I don't have to spend months or years building cars, locomotives, hand laying track, etc before I can run trains. Personally, I think the state of the hobby has never been better.

Enjoy
Paul

[Anonymous]

im 13 and like puting togather kits i got my first kit when i was 10 they dont take long and arnt very difficult so i encourage begginers or anyone 2 try at least one kit if i can do it u can do it im not an a+ student so u dont need 2 be an engineer 2 put one togather

[Anonymous]

A question for you guys: How many of you actually build kits??? I'm referring to kits with more than 20 parts.

Kit Definition: This very slippery. When I got back into the hobby 15 years ago, to me, an Athearn BB was a kit. Now I build kits that are few castings and a bunch of wood/wire or plastic kits with many parts that may take hours or days to assemble. Many people who consider BB's to be their definition of a kit are scared off when they buy Red Caboose or, god forbid, resin kits. I think that a hobby store that caters to these customers will have a hard time selling Westerfield resin kits.

Mark, It appears to me that you are basing your opinion off of your LHS' opinion that kits are dissappearing. Perhaps for HIM, RTR is selling better and he will be stocking more of it. One man does not a trend make.

RTR: The "new" trend in RTR is the higher quality. I think that Kaydee, Intermountain, Red Caboose, P2k etc. have detail now that wasn't available a few years ago in RTR with the exception of brass. In the old days, you had to build kits if you wanted the accuracy and detail (unless you were rich). Now you can buy it RTR. This is a good thing. If you want to concentrate on other aspects of the hobby, you can now buy great looking, accurate RTR cars. I see nothing wrong with this and I think the higher quality is why dealers are selling more RTR. What this means is that the kits are now left to those who enjoy building kits, those who can't afford RTR and those who want items (and there a lot of them) that are not available RTR.

As to the availability of kits: The internet and mail order have changed the dynamics of the modelling business. We as modellers are partly responsible for this because we want a low price. This has caused a centrallzation of resources as far a retailers go. The LHS can't afford to carry items that may not sell as well to his customers. He can order it for you. I think most hobbyists looking for more obscure kits are forced to go the online/mail order route if the LHS doesn't stock the item.

I agree with Orsonroy, there are more kits than ever before. I still stand by my earlier statement: Kits are not going anywhere. They may not be at your LHS in the numbers that you might like, but they are out there ...in vast quanities.

My 2 cents

Guy

[Don Gibson]

IF THERE IS A MARKET FOR KIT's: Someone will fill it .

Manufacture's and dealers today want stuff that sells, quickly. Stock (inventory) costs and has to be covered by higher profit margins.They 'Vote' with their dollars, too.
Whether these kits will be 'Craftsmen' type or 'Shake-the box' will be the question.

INTERMOUNTAIN 'craftsmen type' kits sold for only $5 less than assembled ones. Obviously a beautifully made RTR took precedence over one's own assembled kit. When the price spread is greater, we'll see what happens.

Athearn has changed to RTR because they see Proto 2000 walking off with their market - and using their chassis design! Meanwhile some dealers are unloading their BB inventory.

I notice that loafers with bows on them are back in style.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by orsonroy

What I see are more and more kits being produced, with only a few of the same manufacturers cranking out the bulk of the RTR stuff (Athearn, RC, and IM).

I can now get well in excess of 40 laser cut wood caboose kits, all railroad specific, from two manufacturers and half a dozen distributors. You couldn't come CLOSE to that sort of variety in the "golden age of kits".

Westerfield is a resin manufacturer. Probably the biggest one in the hobby with well over 150 car kits in their product line. With a bigger freight car product line than Athearn and Roundhouse combined, and the best resin car sales in the hobby, they're by no means "the small guys".

And you think that Westerfield, ECW, F&C, even Titchy are main-stream and readily available everywhere? No - I don't think so. If you can get them at your LHSs in Chicago then you are very fortunate. For the rest of us it takes someone with a bit of knowledge and determination to track them down - if I want a kit from one of these manufacturers (and I have quite a few) I usually have to go for a good search on the 'Net before I can find someone selling them. Even the US specialists here in the UK don't carry most of these lines, and half the big internet stores don't either.

For the beginner who walks into a LHS off the High Street and wants to buy a couple of inexpensive kits (and for that I don't necessarily mean "shake the box" ) to see if he really wants to get into the hobby there simply isn't the choice available. All power to Branchlines for sticking with good quality kits at a competitive price which are widely available - but their bucking the trend.

If you want to see how this will end up look at the British OO guage market. There is virtually no mass produced kits any more, everything is either limited availability craftsman kits or mass produced RTR. This is not good for the long term future of the hobby.

[Anonymous]

Ray-

I have only 1 R-T-R car in my (very small) roster, and that's a Trix steel reefer.
The rest are Red Caboose flatcars and wood reefers, and then I'm going to buy a few IM Modified AAR boxcars as undec. kits, and paint them into (you know what road) grain-loading boxcars. Dave Lotz from the BRHS has gotten me into AMB wood kits (have a CB&Q tool shed waiting to be built right now, sometime I'll try to build one of their cabeese), plus maybe a few Westerfiled resin kits if I think I can handle one.

So if someone who's only been in the hobby for 3 years can already find that many kit mfg.ers, you must be right in that the kit era isn't going anywhere soon.

[Anonymous]

Orsonroy,
The folks selling model railroad product should be a good source of this information as well as observance of what is being offered for sale in the catalogs and magazines. Obviously, you shop at stores I do not and read magazines with a differant spin on these topics than I do. What I am seeing is more and more RTR and less and less kits! I don't see the sky falling, but see a direction the hobby is taking I do not like! Modeling is building in my opinion!

[orsonroy]

How is this a "fact"? Do any of us griping on this forum know what sort of money the model railroad hobby REALLY spends or takes in? The few that do won't tell, so none of us have any factual data to base our uninformed observations on. What I base my opinions on is rumor and opservation, same as you. What I see are more and more kits being produced, with only a few of the same manufacturers cranking out the bulk of the RTR stuff (Athearn, RC, and IM).

I can now get well in excess of 40 laser cut wood caboose kits, all railroad specific, from two manufacturers and half a dozen distributors. You couldn't come CLOSE to that sort of variety in the "golden age of kits".

Westerfield is a resin manufacturer. Probably the biggest one in the hobby with well over 150 car kits in their product line. With a bigger freight car product line than Athearn and Roundhouse combined, and the best resin car sales in the hobby, they're by no means "the small guys".

[Anonymous]

My LHS seems to be phasing out their kits - they've cut their prices on Athearn Blue Box massively. This is, to my mind, a bad thing. I first got into US HO scale as a result of seeing a review of an Athearn BB kit (I think it was one of their SE caboose packs) in Continental Modeller. I was attracted by the fact that the kits are prepainted and lettered - at that time, my painting skills were not very good and I had no source of decals. I've since built some slightly more involved models (built a RPP 56ft well car recently), but I still buy the old BB kits - they're cheap, robust, and look pretty good if you add some extra detailing.

Another key factor is cost. To my mind, Athearn RTR does not represent good value for money. Their new Maxi-II well car costs £60 RTR over here - for the same money I could have bought the kit version, added metal wheels and Kadees, and bought a few containers to start loading it. I think the reduction in availability of "shake the box" kits will hit beginners hardest - with these kits it's possible to produce a running model cheaply and quickly, and with a decent standard of finish. This holds interest and will probably lead to someone buying more challenging "craftsman" kits later on.

Having said that, I did buy one Athearn RTR car last year - one of the CSX cabooses - and was impressed by the printing and paintwork, but unimpressed by the out of gauge wheels and plastic couplers - I actually used some spare BB wheelsets I had to replace the factory ones - it now rolls far more freely (couldn't find metal wheelsets in the correct size) and is easier to use thanks to the Kadee #5s I fitted. Considering I fit Kadees to everything as I build it, I would rather pay half the price, and buy the kit.

[orsonroy]

Mark,

I can walk into any one of the hobby shops in the greater Chicago area right now, and come out of there with loads of kits. I don't know of a single LHS in this area that's having a problem getting or selling kits (getting the roadnames you might want, due to batch manufacturing, is a different topic, but one that hasn't really changed in the past 20 years or more). B&G Train World can't keep Intermountain (IM) or Red Caboose (RC) kits in stock. Even Des Plaines Hobbies, the big boys in Chicago, say they sell more kits than RTR.

Mostly, I see the old timers buying more RTR than the midline modelers, or even the still-growing proto modelers. The guys who have been in the hobby for 30+ years see that a new IM car is MUCH nicer than the Athearn stuff they cut their teeth on, but don't have either the skills, time, patience or confidence to actually build one. So they turn to RTR, which they can now afford. I sell at local swap meets. My RTR stuff, be it old Blue Box or a new in box IM car that I'm purging, always get snapped up by guys over 60. My old BB stuff also gets bought by kids (I discount for anyone under 10!). All my P2K or Branchline kits get snapped up by guys in their 20s-40s, and mostly by guys who are proto modeling. (engines are another story. I've yet to sell a steam kit to anyone under 45!)

Intermountain is the ONLY manufacturer who has gone to wholly RTR sales. Even then, they DO stock a large number of their cars as KITS. They're all undec, and you have to buy direct. That they don't sell is mostly a marketing decision. They don't advertise their kits! (nor do they offer them decorated, which is a shame) Want a P2K kit? They JUST released a new batch of their Mathers box cars as KITS. Want a RC X29? Look at their website: they've got eight roadnames worth of kits. Before Roundhouse got bought, you could hop on their website and buy hundreds of kits direct.

My rambling point is that the sky isn't falling. Kits are still out there, in great numbers, and they're not going away any time soon. So Athearn is selling BB cars as RTR; so what? Athearn is still making kits, and I've never been in a LHS that didn't have scads of them. And we've had RTR on the market for over 40 years (ever heard of Train Miniature?) Why are people complaining about high end kit makers finally joining the fray? (especially when most of the people complaining won't build a REAL kit)

AMB: American Model Builder
ECW: Eastern Car Works
NERS: North Eastern Rail Service

Between these three manufacturers (who have been around for at least 20 years, so aren't some new guys) you've got your choice of well over 50 kits, including freight, passenger, MOW and cabooses. Take your pick.

[Anonymous]

Orsonroy, I am not trying to fool anyone! Go to your hobby shop and look at the amount of kits offered as opposed to RTR. Intermountain isn't offering many, if any, kits anymore. LL/P2K is going to RTR. The LHS is not able to get Athearn or MDC kits right now (I would guess due to the transition). Yes, thank your lucky stars, Branchline, Bowser and Accurail are still kits (for now) and the resin kits will likely stay that way. The ECW, AMB, NERS, names are so abbreviated, I have no idea whom you are talking about, but would guess you may be right!

However, if you think the trend isn't to RTR over kits, you are doing a good job of fooling yourself. THIS IS A TREND THE MANUFACTURERS WILL SAY IS HAPPENING!! I for one do not like it.