Kits VS RTR again.

[Anonymous]

While visiting my favorite hobby shop, Carr's Hobbies in Duluth, MN. I asked the owner if people where starting to complain about the lack of kits and dearth of expensive, ready to roll equipment. He said that yes, they are hearing this complaint more and more often. He said it is not only the model railroad hobby effected, but it is appearing to cover all aspects of the hobby industry. He said he would love to have his shelves stocked with kits, however, they seem to just sit there and gather dust. Availability of kits is a problem, there are less and less kits. I found their inventory of Roundhouse and Athearn kits to be dwindling down to the ridiculous.

I fear that in the future people will no longer understand the great satisfaction there is in building a kit. The modeling hobby to me has always been the above. The hobby is called model railroading and to me model means to build, be it a kit or kit bash or built from scratch, modeling is building!

I can't make the industry do what I think is right. I understand it responds to what the public wants. However, if this is the direction the hobby is going, it certainly leaves me cold and sad!

Is this the direction you all want the hobby to take?

Why isn't this topic discussed in the modeling media? I'll tell you why. If the courts feel that awarding MTH 40 million from Lionel is just, then I'm wet behind the ears about how much money is involved in this hobby!!!!!

[Anonymous]

I to am dismayed at the lack of kits in this hobby. Like you I grew up in what is apparently now the "old school" of model railroading. I agree that buidling models, be they freight cars, buildings, or even the odd airplane or two, is a fundamental part of this hobby. With all this ready to run taking over, I fear that a gap in fundamental skills will soon develop and and when that happens the hobby will begin to die.

There is a simple way to ensure that kits return to store shelves once more. Only buy kits when one goes to the hobby store, and when the manufacturors see that the RTR isn't moving, kits will soon return.

James.

[Anonymous]

I grew up experiencing shops filled with kits. In the day everything was produced constantly except for some really exclusive limited run items that cost alot to make. The kits would fill the shelf and part of the fun is going thu them looking for the one gem to take home.

I had once an oppertunity to model Athearn's 40' Billboard reefers and we would take them home to build. Unfortunately they are out of production and with my skills much improved over what they were in the beginning I would just like to build these kits again.

I am reluctant to ba***he manufactors but I have understood that there is money to be made in business if you can get the volume of orders to pay for the costs of the production run before moving on to the next item...

What I have a problem with is the availibility of the items to the modeler who may not have the funds to take advantage right away of a item that is sold out before it hits the store.

I would like to see Hobby kit or RTR makers maintain the inventory for those who may have missed the first round for at least 3 years. Take Walther's Troop Train set as a example... I dont have the means to model this set at the time. But I do feel the urge to go outside the budget knowing they may stop production and will have to pay inflated prices at a later date for these items. This is not what the Hobby is about.

You can add "Finding out of production" items to the list of required skills in the hobby.

However, inventories are low and prices creep up and people who are not able to take advantage of these so called limited run, hurry order now (2 years before actual item hits stores) or announcements promising precision and customer satisfaction while the item in question is still a draftman's dream.

All these things will drive people out of the hobby eventaully. Those that remain have the means and the ability to enjoy the trains while others are left to browse shiny catalogs wondering of desired item will be made again someday.

I apolgize if this rant offended some folks but I feel strongly that the hobby needs consistent and complete inventory of everything from the .50 cent paint brush up to the 10,000 dollar Trix mega big exensive mortage breaking boy. In order to have a strong base and good customer support, hobby shops should be able to fill orders based on what people want than to be "soliticated" for special order items costing alot of money and certain to be delayed in production.

In a hobby shop kits and supplies as well as associated detail parts and raw materials make the bulk of the money spent not the mega expensive big boy that will never be made again (At least until another manufacter released thier own big boy)

The cyclic swing from frenzied ordering before the production is closed to the low of slack water low tide of waiting for the next big items while scraping empty hobby shops is NOT what a modeler wants to do.

Lee

[Anonymous]

I went to a model show here in the UK last weekend, I checked out one of the traders who specialises in US trains. Appart from Branchlines and half a dozen very tried looking Accurail and MDC boxcar kits the entire rest of his stall was RTR.

It doesn't take a genius to work out why: a Branchlines Yardmaster boxcar kit costs £6.50 and a Kadee assembled boxcar £25. I would warrant a guess that it doesn't cost nearly 4 times the amount to assemble the parts ... For this reason I don't think that simply not buying RTR products will solve the problem.

I agree with some of the sentiments expressed here, and go a little further, I simply don't understand why you would want to buy RTR items when you can have the satisfaction of putting a kit together, then perhaps making detail modifcations along the way to end up with a unique model.

[Anonymous]

If all kits would dissappear in HO scale, (that would be a very sad day.), I'd either get out of the hobby or move to N-scale.[V][:(]

Look at Intermountain, they hardly have any kits anymore. But the thing is, that THE MANUFACTURERS PRODUCE WHAT SELLS. So there are too many people buying the expensive R-T-R stuff. (or the mfg'ers just want to make an extra $5-10 for them.) So if we want kits made, encourage everyone you know in the hobby to buy kits more than the R-T-R cars.

Just my 2 cents.

[garr]

Mark,

I think there is room for both the rtr and kit modelers.
The problem is that manufacturers are making it hard to resist the convenience of well decorated and, in a lot of cases, road specific detailed locos and cars. Used to be that the best paint jobs were self done but on most of the better manufactured models it is hard to beat the factory applied finish.
This trend seems to have really become visible, to me at least, about the time Atlas introduced the Dash 8-40B. Before this, undecorated models were prized by a large number of modelers and were quickly sold out. But with the Dash 8-40B Atlas covered most, if not all, options of the prototype roadnames and the undecorated units lanquished on the shelves. Modelers chose convenience and quality of the decorated units even though undecorated units were available.

I don't think this trend hurts the hobby. For those who choose, undecorated versions are available for nearly all the current rtr models and, in most cases, the undecorated versions are unassembled, at least to a lesser extent than the decorated models. It does seem, however, the manufactures should have a lower retail price for the undecorated models (as Atlas does or did).

These options only help the hobby. RTR models help time-strapped modelers, new and old, enjoy the hobby more and, without this convenience, these individuals may not be model railroaders at all. Undecorated models, in kit or semi-kit form, are available for the "true" craftsmen. And the manufacturers' bottom line is increased by the higher selling price of the rtr models, which also makes them stronger and will hopefully encourage them to keep investing in the hobby.

Jay

[Anonymous]

I try to keep a couple of kits on my bench ready to be assembled( I guess I'm anticipating them doing away with kits.) Some people may not get their satisfaction from kit building..A lot of beginners not only buy RTR, but also hire someone to construct the layout as well.. All they have to do is write the check.. You have 20 to 30 advertisements for layout construction in MR every month. I would hate to get dependant on the manufacturers for RTR stuff

[garr]

Student of the Big Sky Blue and Highiron,

I also grew up building models and I still do since I model the Georgia Railroad. However I do buy rtr when available. This has not hurt my modeling ability, if anything, it has improved it. To me the bottom-line standards have been raised by the quality of most of the rtr models.

As far as model or kit availability, what I call rolling scarcity has always been a problem. Athearn never marketed their blue boxes as limited runs, however their production cycles did, at times, create availability problems. Other manufacturers also operated similarily.

Models seem to never truely be limited run. This marketing ploy is used constantly but almost every model has additional runs and the most popular road names get repeated in the reruns. This pattern eventually saturates the market which allows the creative modeler to find the model at shows, meets, on ebay, etc. long after production was stopped.

The biggest problem I see(as partially stated in my reply above) is the lack of discounted prices by most manufacturers on undecorated/unassembled models in comparison to the same models' rtr price. The savings from not decorating and assembling should be passed on to the modeler.

Jay

[TrainFreak409]

I like the Athearn rolling stock kits. In my opinion, Ready to Roll/Run rolling stock is too expensive. Why buy a 200 ton crane RTR for $25.00+, when you can easily build one for $13.95? Some people are just too lazy to build kits. But, others might be afraid that they will not be able to build it to their expectations. That's what I thought when I purchased an Athearn 200 ton crane kit, but it turned out fine.

But, I prefer to buy RTR locos, for the time being.

[8]TrainFreak409[8]

[jsoderq]

One thing missing from all this is the fact that many people today have not learned how to use tools. The kids in my neighborhood can't even fix a flat on a bike. The neighbor can't fix a broken window. Many don't even know what a lathe is, let alone how to use itOne reason for prefab housing is there is no one to build stick bilt. So besides saving time , rtr avoids the problem of what tool to use.

[simon1966]

This evening, Andrew, 7, built a UP flat car. Christopher, 4 1/2, built a B&O pulp wood car. Both Athearn BB and both cost under $5. They needed some help as little hands struggle with Kaydee couplers and the difficult to install pocket covers, but within 45 minutes or so, they had 2 freight cars ready for weathering. Out to the garage we went for them to have their first go with my new airbrush. A liberal shot of rust and grimy black and they are thrilled with the results. The UP car is now well beyond recorgnition for copyright infringement [:D]!! This is what my hobby is all about! I think I own 2 R to R freight cars. Both were purchased at liquidation prices at GATS shows. I derive little or no satisfaction from them. This is one customer who will continue to purchase kits for as long as they are available!

[Anonymous]

The mental image of children firing Grimy black at the cars for the joy of it brought a smile to my face.

You just have to take and post that pic. I bet you the car looks like a lump of coal.

[Anonymous]

There is a pretty large discrepancy which I feel needs some heavy duty clarification. That is RTR vs. kit, and high-quality vs. low[er] quality.

I hate it when people confuse RTR and kit with levels of detail and running ability. Ready to run means just that--it is ready to be put on the tracks and made into a train. A kit must be assembled first. The status of rolling stock in the box implies nothing about the actual quality of the piece. All of the low quality toy train junk comes RTR, and resin kits, some of the best there are, need to be assembled. Please do not confuse RTR vs. kit with degrees of quality!

When most people say that RTR is better because of more details or better paint or whatnot, they actually have no argument for RTR. They have an argument for product quality. It is truly sad that the manufacturers cannot see this distinction, and produce the most worthwhile rolling stock only in RTR form, and the not-quite-as-good rolling stock in kit form.

However, I must give kudos to Red Caboose, as they offer their fine quality products in both RTR and kit form. They are the same products, just different in the time and effort required to get them running (and of course, price). I'd like to see their sales of kits vs. RTR, as that would be the most accurate marketview yet (although biased towards higher end markets).

[DSchmitt]

RTR usually sells better even at a higher price.

1. People who have never built kits do not realixe the pleasure and sense of accomplishment gained.
2. People who have tried to build kits and been fustrated.
3. People who find building the kits boring.
4. People who want a large fleet and prefer to do other things with their time. (like constructing a layout, building scenery, or operating trains)

While "shake the box" kits are easy and can be assembled quickly, some of the brands mentioned are not shake the box and take quite a bit of experence, skill and time to build. Even a shake the box can be fustrating to a young and/or inexperenced modeler.

I quit buying Intermountain N scale kits and started purchasing their RTR because after I built half a dozen box cars and refers successfully, I found them to be both boring (since they are all the same) and fustrating (due to fragile and small difficult to place parts). The first IM RTR's I bought were tank cars because I messed up every tank car kit I tried, either by breaking or losing parts, or damaging the paint.. Considering the number of IM cars I have, I have actually saved money and prevented a lot of fustration by paying a little more for their RTR.

[Anonymous]

Lack of kits...???? I respectfully disagree. I have six big boxes full of kits awaiting assembly. I am always buying more. Search kits on Ebay and see how many items come up (I just searched and came up 5542 entries in HO). Most of the guys I know have more kits than they will finish in their lifetimes. Maybe my friends are fanatics (I know I am, see my handle) but I think that many kits are bought and never built. They will be passed around for many years to come. Some are more expensive on resale, but I find I usually pay less than the original list on Ebay.

I don't see ap problem with RTR and I agree with Lemscate on the quality thing. Another angle to this is that many very cool kits are produced by guys in their garages or by small companies as a labor of love. Most of these kits are by necessity limited run items because these guys are small fish. If you like some of the obscure stuff, buy it because the guy may not be around next year if you don't. Most of these offerings don't make it to the LHS for a variety of economic reasons....

I enjoy kits and I haven't really felt that availability is a problem...If it gets to be in the future, there is always scratchbuilding...

Guy

[Anonymous]

Lemscate,

I met the president of Red Caboose at O scale west a few years ago. When the subject of kits came up, he said that they were going to go more in the directon of RTR because the sales were stronger than kits. However, I have noticed that they have re-run a few kits since then.

Guy

[Anonymous]

Trainnut1250, I related what I was told by a retailer and I found in his shop what he said, to be true. People are buying RTR over kits, you say this yourself. The retailer is responding to the trend in the hobby that the manufacturers are also responding to; RTR over kits! Although you disagreed respectfully, you are still wrong!

[BRAKIE]

I like the better RTR cars but ,never did care for car kits with a zillion and one iddy biddy pieces..I like the "shake -the-box-kits..As far as RTR cars I would rather build my blue box cars to my standards then to buy the BB cars as ready to roll and still need to bring them up to my standards.I like the newer RTR cars from Athearn.I also like Atlas,Walthers and Intermountain RTR cars.
I have several KD cars but,these cars need slight more attention due to the way KD makes their cars..These cars are built with colored plastic which leaves a high shine..So the cars need dulcoated or weathered..As far as SOME of the Walther's cars they are no more then RTR kits.You will need to add the ladders and in the case of their cabooses drill holes and hadd the grabs..So how can Walthers call these cars RTR??? [:O] [}:)]

[MAbruce]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cjm89

If all kits would dissappear in HO scale, (that would be a very sad day.), I'd either get out of the hobby or move to N-scale.[V][:(]

Hey, I've been in N-scale all my life and it's really not all that bad. [:D][;)] They also say that I have a chance of getting out of the asylum in a couple of years if the medication keeps working. [:P][(-D][(-D]

It’s interesting that RTR vs. kits has not been that big an issue in N-scale. This is mainly because there have not been that many kit offerings over the years, and N-scale has always been dominated by RTR from the start.

But I do find it odd that even in N-scale, kits seem to be a hard sell. MDC/Roundhouse had been clearing out their N-scale rolling stock kits at dirt cheap prices lately. Much of my fleet is made up of these kits, and I find it hard to understand why they didn’t sell better. I really don’t even consider them “kits” because they only have a few basic parts. They take minutes to assemble – certainly not nearly complex as HO kits.

Oh well, times change.

[orsonroy]

No kits? Who are you guys fooling? There are more kits on the market NOW than there were 20-25 years ago! In addition to all the basic stuff from Athearn and Roundhouse (who are STILL making kits, no matter what the doom & gloom rumormongers claim), we've got Bowser, Branchline, Red Caboose, Intermountain, Accurail, ECW, AMB, NERS, F&C, Westerfield, Sunshine, LBF and at least two dozen other manufacturers cranking out kits. You could build one of each kit that's available NOW, and not be done building for 10 years!

True, what you see on the SHELVES are RTR. That's what's selling right now. Is that the herald of the end for the hobby? Not by a long shot. Most shops still have enough Athearn inventory to last for years, so the entry level crowd is covered. And the average modeler has far more money to spend on the hobby then they did 30 years ago. In 1970, $100 for a brass engine was an INVESTMENT. Today, $250 for a plastic steamer won't kill the budget of the average modeler.

Manufacturers are selling what will make them MONEY. That's one of the primary reasons they're making rolling stock. If the average modeler is buying RTR, it's because they want to. It's simple Economics 101. If some modeler is decrying the lack of kits and is being "forced" to buy RTR, he's not looking for kits.

And why is everyone crying about the lack of Athearn abd other shake the box kits anyway? Personally, I never got any satisfaction out of building a car kit in 5 minutes. Where's the challenge and pride in accomplishment in that? If you guys are complaing about no kits, switch to building resin. THAT will keep you quiet for awhile!

[Anonymous]

Well, I'm going to weigh in here. I think the difference is lack of patience. Most folks now want instant gratification. I have been an RC airplane modeler for years. Love the satisfaction of building a good kit and then flying it. Not only is it satisfying, I know what's inside. I know how to fix it when necessary. I know when something is not quite right. In recent years, the guys in my club rarely build any more. They by ARFs (almost ready to fly) and spend their time flying instead of building. It may be that I live in Austin, Texas, where you can fly year round (ie, no winter indoor building season forced on us), but I miss seeing something different at the field.

Now for model railroading. I have always been interested. I am building my first layout (HO 4x8) with my grandson. We have some RTR, but we most have kits for our rolling stock. So far all of our structures are kits. He is absolutely LOVING the experience and so am I. I had not noticed the lack of kits, perhaps because I cannot compare to the old days, but I hope there will always be kits. They are so rewarding.

John Soule
Austin, Texas

[Anonymous]

Orsonroy, I am not trying to fool anyone! Go to your hobby shop and look at the amount of kits offered as opposed to RTR. Intermountain isn't offering many, if any, kits anymore. LL/P2K is going to RTR. The LHS is not able to get Athearn or MDC kits right now (I would guess due to the transition). Yes, thank your lucky stars, Branchline, Bowser and Accurail are still kits (for now) and the resin kits will likely stay that way. The ECW, AMB, NERS, names are so abbreviated, I have no idea whom you are talking about, but would guess you may be right!

However, if you think the trend isn't to RTR over kits, you are doing a good job of fooling yourself. THIS IS A TREND THE MANUFACTURERS WILL SAY IS HAPPENING!! I for one do not like it.

[orsonroy]

Mark,

I can walk into any one of the hobby shops in the greater Chicago area right now, and come out of there with loads of kits. I don't know of a single LHS in this area that's having a problem getting or selling kits (getting the roadnames you might want, due to batch manufacturing, is a different topic, but one that hasn't really changed in the past 20 years or more). B&G Train World can't keep Intermountain (IM) or Red Caboose (RC) kits in stock. Even Des Plaines Hobbies, the big boys in Chicago, say they sell more kits than RTR.

Mostly, I see the old timers buying more RTR than the midline modelers, or even the still-growing proto modelers. The guys who have been in the hobby for 30+ years see that a new IM car is MUCH nicer than the Athearn stuff they cut their teeth on, but don't have either the skills, time, patience or confidence to actually build one. So they turn to RTR, which they can now afford. I sell at local swap meets. My RTR stuff, be it old Blue Box or a new in box IM car that I'm purging, always get snapped up by guys over 60. My old BB stuff also gets bought by kids (I discount for anyone under 10!). All my P2K or Branchline kits get snapped up by guys in their 20s-40s, and mostly by guys who are proto modeling. (engines are another story. I've yet to sell a steam kit to anyone under 45!)

Intermountain is the ONLY manufacturer who has gone to wholly RTR sales. Even then, they DO stock a large number of their cars as KITS. They're all undec, and you have to buy direct. That they don't sell is mostly a marketing decision. They don't advertise their kits! (nor do they offer them decorated, which is a shame) Want a P2K kit? They JUST released a new batch of their Mathers box cars as KITS. Want a RC X29? Look at their website: they've got eight roadnames worth of kits. Before Roundhouse got bought, you could hop on their website and buy hundreds of kits direct.

My rambling point is that the sky isn't falling. Kits are still out there, in great numbers, and they're not going away any time soon. So Athearn is selling BB cars as RTR; so what? Athearn is still making kits, and I've never been in a LHS that didn't have scads of them. And we've had RTR on the market for over 40 years (ever heard of Train Miniature?) Why are people complaining about high end kit makers finally joining the fray? (especially when most of the people complaining won't build a REAL kit)

AMB: American Model Builder
ECW: Eastern Car Works
NERS: North Eastern Rail Service

Between these three manufacturers (who have been around for at least 20 years, so aren't some new guys) you've got your choice of well over 50 kits, including freight, passenger, MOW and cabooses. Take your pick.

[Anonymous]

My LHS seems to be phasing out their kits - they've cut their prices on Athearn Blue Box massively. This is, to my mind, a bad thing. I first got into US HO scale as a result of seeing a review of an Athearn BB kit (I think it was one of their SE caboose packs) in Continental Modeller. I was attracted by the fact that the kits are prepainted and lettered - at that time, my painting skills were not very good and I had no source of decals. I've since built some slightly more involved models (built a RPP 56ft well car recently), but I still buy the old BB kits - they're cheap, robust, and look pretty good if you add some extra detailing.

Another key factor is cost. To my mind, Athearn RTR does not represent good value for money. Their new Maxi-II well car costs £60 RTR over here - for the same money I could have bought the kit version, added metal wheels and Kadees, and bought a few containers to start loading it. I think the reduction in availability of "shake the box" kits will hit beginners hardest - with these kits it's possible to produce a running model cheaply and quickly, and with a decent standard of finish. This holds interest and will probably lead to someone buying more challenging "craftsman" kits later on.

Having said that, I did buy one Athearn RTR car last year - one of the CSX cabooses - and was impressed by the printing and paintwork, but unimpressed by the out of gauge wheels and plastic couplers - I actually used some spare BB wheelsets I had to replace the factory ones - it now rolls far more freely (couldn't find metal wheelsets in the correct size) and is easier to use thanks to the Kadee #5s I fitted. Considering I fit Kadees to everything as I build it, I would rather pay half the price, and buy the kit.

[orsonroy]

How is this a "fact"? Do any of us griping on this forum know what sort of money the model railroad hobby REALLY spends or takes in? The few that do won't tell, so none of us have any factual data to base our uninformed observations on. What I base my opinions on is rumor and opservation, same as you. What I see are more and more kits being produced, with only a few of the same manufacturers cranking out the bulk of the RTR stuff (Athearn, RC, and IM).

I can now get well in excess of 40 laser cut wood caboose kits, all railroad specific, from two manufacturers and half a dozen distributors. You couldn't come CLOSE to that sort of variety in the "golden age of kits".

Westerfield is a resin manufacturer. Probably the biggest one in the hobby with well over 150 car kits in their product line. With a bigger freight car product line than Athearn and Roundhouse combined, and the best resin car sales in the hobby, they're by no means "the small guys".

[Anonymous]

Orsonroy,
The folks selling model railroad product should be a good source of this information as well as observance of what is being offered for sale in the catalogs and magazines. Obviously, you shop at stores I do not and read magazines with a differant spin on these topics than I do. What I am seeing is more and more RTR and less and less kits! I don't see the sky falling, but see a direction the hobby is taking I do not like! Modeling is building in my opinion!

[Anonymous]

Ray-

I have only 1 R-T-R car in my (very small) roster, and that's a Trix steel reefer.
The rest are Red Caboose flatcars and wood reefers, and then I'm going to buy a few IM Modified AAR boxcars as undec. kits, and paint them into (you know what road) grain-loading boxcars. Dave Lotz from the BRHS has gotten me into AMB wood kits (have a CB&Q tool shed waiting to be built right now, sometime I'll try to build one of their cabeese), plus maybe a few Westerfiled resin kits if I think I can handle one.

So if someone who's only been in the hobby for 3 years can already find that many kit mfg.ers, you must be right in that the kit era isn't going anywhere soon.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by orsonroy

What I see are more and more kits being produced, with only a few of the same manufacturers cranking out the bulk of the RTR stuff (Athearn, RC, and IM).

I can now get well in excess of 40 laser cut wood caboose kits, all railroad specific, from two manufacturers and half a dozen distributors. You couldn't come CLOSE to that sort of variety in the "golden age of kits".

Westerfield is a resin manufacturer. Probably the biggest one in the hobby with well over 150 car kits in their product line. With a bigger freight car product line than Athearn and Roundhouse combined, and the best resin car sales in the hobby, they're by no means "the small guys".

And you think that Westerfield, ECW, F&C, even Titchy are main-stream and readily available everywhere? No - I don't think so. If you can get them at your LHSs in Chicago then you are very fortunate. For the rest of us it takes someone with a bit of knowledge and determination to track them down - if I want a kit from one of these manufacturers (and I have quite a few) I usually have to go for a good search on the 'Net before I can find someone selling them. Even the US specialists here in the UK don't carry most of these lines, and half the big internet stores don't either.

For the beginner who walks into a LHS off the High Street and wants to buy a couple of inexpensive kits (and for that I don't necessarily mean "shake the box" ) to see if he really wants to get into the hobby there simply isn't the choice available. All power to Branchlines for sticking with good quality kits at a competitive price which are widely available - but their bucking the trend.

If you want to see how this will end up look at the British OO guage market. There is virtually no mass produced kits any more, everything is either limited availability craftsman kits or mass produced RTR. This is not good for the long term future of the hobby.

[Don Gibson]

IF THERE IS A MARKET FOR KIT's: Someone will fill it .

Manufacture's and dealers today want stuff that sells, quickly. Stock (inventory) costs and has to be covered by higher profit margins.They 'Vote' with their dollars, too.
Whether these kits will be 'Craftsmen' type or 'Shake-the box' will be the question.

INTERMOUNTAIN 'craftsmen type' kits sold for only $5 less than assembled ones. Obviously a beautifully made RTR took precedence over one's own assembled kit. When the price spread is greater, we'll see what happens.

Athearn has changed to RTR because they see Proto 2000 walking off with their market - and using their chassis design! Meanwhile some dealers are unloading their BB inventory.

I notice that loafers with bows on them are back in style.

[Anonymous]

A question for you guys: How many of you actually build kits??? I'm referring to kits with more than 20 parts.

Kit Definition: This very slippery. When I got back into the hobby 15 years ago, to me, an Athearn BB was a kit. Now I build kits that are few castings and a bunch of wood/wire or plastic kits with many parts that may take hours or days to assemble. Many people who consider BB's to be their definition of a kit are scared off when they buy Red Caboose or, god forbid, resin kits. I think that a hobby store that caters to these customers will have a hard time selling Westerfield resin kits.

Mark, It appears to me that you are basing your opinion off of your LHS' opinion that kits are dissappearing. Perhaps for HIM, RTR is selling better and he will be stocking more of it. One man does not a trend make.

RTR: The "new" trend in RTR is the higher quality. I think that Kaydee, Intermountain, Red Caboose, P2k etc. have detail now that wasn't available a few years ago in RTR with the exception of brass. In the old days, you had to build kits if you wanted the accuracy and detail (unless you were rich). Now you can buy it RTR. This is a good thing. If you want to concentrate on other aspects of the hobby, you can now buy great looking, accurate RTR cars. I see nothing wrong with this and I think the higher quality is why dealers are selling more RTR. What this means is that the kits are now left to those who enjoy building kits, those who can't afford RTR and those who want items (and there a lot of them) that are not available RTR.

As to the availability of kits: The internet and mail order have changed the dynamics of the modelling business. We as modellers are partly responsible for this because we want a low price. This has caused a centrallzation of resources as far a retailers go. The LHS can't afford to carry items that may not sell as well to his customers. He can order it for you. I think most hobbyists looking for more obscure kits are forced to go the online/mail order route if the LHS doesn't stock the item.

I agree with Orsonroy, there are more kits than ever before. I still stand by my earlier statement: Kits are not going anywhere. They may not be at your LHS in the numbers that you might like, but they are out there ...in vast quanities.

My 2 cents

Guy