My hope for this year is for more small steam engines to be produced. Bachmann has been great with what they have made so far. But I still would like to see more 4-6-0, 2-8-0, 4-6-2 and 2-8-2s produced. Harriman engines would be really nice. With all of the articulateds that have been sold in the past few years I can't believe there is no market for smaller engines. More WW-1 era equipment would also be nice. - Nevin
If Mike or Joe are looking, and I'm sure they are, c'mon.....the market is begging for the more common smaller run-a-day steamers. Let's get some 4-6-2's on the market, another 2-8-0. Another 4-8-2 now that Bachmann has stopped producing their Spectrum model. How about a nice Prairie type 2-6-2? Or an Atlantic 4-4-2? Maybe some industrial tank engines in the 2-6-2T and 2-8-2T configurations for logging and mines.
Crandell
I and some others have received an email from Athearn, Athearn is dropping the rebuild of the Genesis 4-6-2. If you do not believe me, email Athearn and ask them about this loco.
It was going to be sold through the Athearn/Roundhouse line.
Caboose Hobbies was holding an order for me and canceled the order, telling me the same thing.
Don't forget, the North Pole is now in China and the Chinese Santa does not dealing with the USA much anymore. Probably a language barrier.
Rich
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
Let's face it, guys, if and when the manufacturers eventually get around to issuing an example of small steam they'll almost certainly be asking big steam prices for it. The production costs aren't that much less to produce a small engine than they are for a much larger one...and then there is the question of maintaining their profit margin.
The fact is that there aren't a whole lot of hobbyists these days willing to pay say $350 for an Atlantic, or Prairie, steam locomotive and that's about the price any new example will list for. At the same time, while small steam is desired mainly by the more experienced hobbyists for operating on their layouts, the big engines appeal not only to such operators, but equally, or even more so, to the dabblers and collectors. The latter engines will be in much greater demand and sell out far more quickly because of the larger customer base. So guess what kinds of steam locomotives you are likely to see come to market in 2011? With the demise of IHC, I'm afraid the days of truly affordable, yet reliable, small steam very likely came to a close.
CNJ831
I'm with Neville & Crandell on this... let's get a quality small steam loco set up on a "pre-order" basis and see if there is a marketable demand for it.
Like CNJ831 said it may cost $350., but look at the price they're asking for the new Bachmann 4-6-0 DCC/Sound Ten Wheeler. I'd have to grit my teeth to met such a price, but for a quality Pacific I'd do it!
Come on BLI & Proto!!!! Bob
I agree that there is a demand for more small steam.
This topic keeps coming up on the various forums and as everyone has heard over and over is that the price would be too high for the market place.
So we keep getting more and more of the large steam engines. I forgot who it was but there is a UP 2-12-2 in the works,if I remember correctly.
However, based on past performance we will most likely have to look to Bachmann in all probability for the majority of our small steamers.
I was very disappointed to hear as one of the posters on this topic stated that the long awaited re-release of the Athearn 4-6-2 has been declared dead.
CNJ831 is right - it costs nearly as much to engineer and build a small steamer as a big one. The equation small = cheap and big = expensive does not work out properly. I also agree that there is a demand for smaller steam locos. The market must be pretty much saturated with all those Big Boys, Challengers, UP 9000´s, PRR T-1 and Q´s, and other big articulated steamers which have been around in recent years. It is time, that Mike or Joe (or the boys and girls from Athearn, Atlas and Walthers) re-discover their entrepreneurial spirit and start to market a series of those bread-and-butter locos which built the nation!
I have over 200 steam engines already. Can't think of any that i would want that are not already make without getting very specific . When i ran out of US engines to get I went to Hornby, Fleischmann, Jouef, Roco , Liliput, and even Bachmann China for some more.
Bob
I cant understand why there should be a problem paying $300 + for a smaller steamer as long that it has the same detailing and features as the larger ones. Or is it some mental barrier at work here? I mean, it isn´t like buying a car or house. Quality costs and as long as brass is as "bad" for operation considering the price and DCC unfriendliness, I think most would like to buy the plastic or hybrid engines.
In Europe we have paid almost as much for a smaller engine as a bigger one, and we don´t really argue about it, as if it is a engine we need it doesn´t matter how BIG it is....
I don´t buy big engines as I don´t want/need them, but if the mfg´s would do some smaller ones, I think that I and others would gladly buy them.
Swedish Custom painter and model maker. My Website:
My Railroad
My Youtube:
Graff´s channel
This is the thing...most of us realize that the price is going to be just as much..up to a point. So why the mental block?
I think that this idea that it should be 'cheaper' is just an excuse to keep us from imagining other solutions/situations.
What happened to the idea of growing a market?
"Oh...but it costs MONEY"---is what happened to that idea....
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
One more thing. I can´t understand why there are no kits for smaller engines on the market, considering the demand for them.
I would gladly buy a brass etched kit of a 2-6-2 or 2-6-0. Look at Backwoods miniatures, they have some wonderful kits for non US engines.....
Or is the US market "dead" for this type of kits? If so, why?
Graffen One more thing. I can´t understand why there are no kits for smaller engines on the market, considering the demand for them. I would gladly buy a brass etched kit of a 2-6-2 or 2-6-0. Look at Backwoods miniatures, they have some wonderful kits for non US engines..... Or is the US market "dead" for this type of kits? If so, why?
i don't know if the market is actually "dead"...yet. But it does appear to be in a coma....
I do think it comes down to the unwillingness in "invest"...remember that word?...in building that market back up. Look, we are getting lazy here if we say that a 5.5% ROI is not enough...if WALMART...for pete sake is only at a 5.5% ROI then why not here?
Yes. there are a lot of challenges here...one is to get rid of the notion that there is no market...
AAACCH!!! Maybe just accept that the market is elsewhere ...it is not dead but asleep....
I know I have stated this before, but the "normal" way of making kits is that some individual or small group makes a kit for their own use and offers it to the market to make a little profit on it.
Or has the US market gone all "Professional? If all small suppliers must have a big profit margin and so on, then I understand that no one invests in the hobby anymore.
In Sweden we have at least 10-15 Mfg´s of brass or white metal kits, and no more than maybe 2 or 3 of them has it as a full time occupation.
I am currently in the final stages of finishing a craftsman building kit (the etchings still to be made), and I pay all of the production myself, and hope that I can sell as many kits that I have some positive result in the end.
Oh there are loads of small 'cottage-based" mfg's out there. It's just finding them here i guess.
My little project is now at the prototyping stage...we are doing up a 2-6-0 in CN form...something along this line...
We spent a few days getting all the photos for this and then getting the plans made up...lots of parts into this little buggy that is for sure...It was supposed to come out last fall but due to certain health issues of mine I had to back the project release until next Spring...
Well that IS interesting! How can I find out more about that Loco?
But where do I find these other small suppliers?
I have searched the Web vigorously to no avail. It isn´t easy being on the other side of the world....
Well, right now I'm in the middle of setting up a host for the website then we be doing it through that route.
I'm thinking that many have not even set up websites yet..as we are now only beginning to do the same...I'm still trying to figure out the web design for our site...
We have someone coming down to do some 'proper' photography of the piece and we are considering a couple of shows up this way in the Spring when we reveal the model...my photog skills are kife when it comes to close up work...
I think that the market for HO small steam is largely satisfied in the U.S. There currently are and recently have been offerings in the different wheel arrangements. True, your particular desired version may not be made but most of the market is happy to have a 2-6-0, 2-8-0, etc without worrying about whether it's for the B&O as opposed to the CB&Q.
As for steam locomotive kits, I don't see that. Mass produced ones can't be sold for enough less than RTR to have a market. Low run, highly detailed models would cost $400 (and up), have to be different from current offerings, and be for a specific prototype - a market probably too limited to be viable.
As those of us in the minority scales have learned, get it when you see it, even if it's not exactly what you were hoping for.
Enjoy
Paul
IRONROOSTER I think that the market for HO small steam is largely satisfied in the U.S.
I think that the market for HO small steam is largely satisfied in the U.S.
I don´t see that, as if that would be true, no Mfg would make any more small locomotives.....
I DO know that the market for big mallets must be so overflowed by now, that the profits can´t be in the + ranges anymore.
IRONROOSTER True, your particular desired version may not be made but most of the market is happy to have a 2-6-0, 2-8-0, etc without worrying about whether it's for the B&O as opposed to the CB&Q. As for steam locomotive kits, I don't see that. Mass produced ones can't be sold for enough less than RTR to have a market. Low run, highly detailed models would cost $400 (and up), have to be different from current offerings, and be for a specific prototype - a market probably too limited to be viable.
True, your particular desired version may not be made but most of the market is happy to have a 2-6-0, 2-8-0, etc without worrying about whether it's for the B&O as opposed to the CB&Q.
Those two statements actually cancels each other...
If people would be so specific that they wouldn´t buy a generic kit (wich easily can be made as desired) but instead would opt for a specific RTR loco, wich isn´t the type you would want. I can´t understand it!
More likely a case of that it is to much work to actually do it yourself I think...
A kit isn´t to be cheaper than a RTR loco, as the results of the kit could be 5 times more valuable than a RTR loco. At least if it is brass.
BTW, I sold one of my kit built brass locos a while ago. It had cost me $300, and it went for $1300. So if I had bought a RTR loco for that price, I would had lost some good modeling time AND if I had sold it, maybe gotten half of the purchasing price....
A few random thoughts on this topic:
$350 for an Atlantic, Prarie or Ten Wheeler? is that WITH DCC and sound? Than it could be $250 in a DC version, less the usual 20% street discounts = $200 - I'm all in if its a good model.
AND, it can be RTR or a kit, as long as the kit is not just a box of supplies for a scratch building project.
As has been discussed before, with some planning, multiple prototypes could be made with common drives - RTR or kit.
I think there is a market, just no one has the resources and guts to go after it.
I surely want more Atlantics, Modern Ten Wheelers, Pacifics, Mikados, etc, to choose from - and I would buy the right ones in 6 packs, not just one of each.
Sheldon
I agree, $300-350 is not an unreasonable MSRP for a well made small steam engine with a sound system. I would easily purchase 3-4 if they met my needs. On the other hand I have not bought a single large steam engine. I have no use for a Big Boy on my layout, so they are missing out on my money. There are certainly more small layouts than large ones so I suspect that the market for small steam locomotives isn't as small as implied by some. - Nevin
Graffen I cant understand why there should be a problem paying $300 + for a smaller steamer as long that it has the same detailing and features as the larger ones. In Europe we have paid almost as much for a smaller engine as a bigger one, and we don´t really argue about it, as if it is a engine we need it doesn´t matter how BIG it is.... I don´t buy big engines as I don´t want/need them, but if the mfg´s would do some smaller ones, I think that I and others would gladly buy them.
I cant understand why there should be a problem paying $300 + for a smaller steamer as long that it has the same detailing and features as the larger ones.
I'm afraid your outlook simply doesn't fly on this side of the pond. Yes, there are newcomers to the hobby, even a few old-timers, who feel money is no object when it comes to locomotives. However, in the history of model railroading over here it has traditionally been that big engines cost big bucks, while smaller ones are far, far less expensive. That situation existed for at least five decades and was true even among brass models.
The fact is that, regardless of the level of detail and quality, the great majority of long-time hobbyists are unwilling to spend $350+ for a switcher, or any other short wheel arrangement locomotive. Walthers has been trying for several years now to unload its 0-8-0 switcher, listing for around $260 and with DCC & sound, a hundred dollars more. Yet, even on eBay and at substantial discount, they sell poorly.
The outlook of hobbyists in North America is distinctly different from Europe because of how the hobby has evolved in each location. Be assured, any attempt at selling small steam at high prices would be a total flop in the U.S. The manufacturers fully appreciate that fact and therefore will stick with big, mantelpiece, models.
Neither would cottage industry production of very limited numbers of models be capable of filling the need. There are one or two such companies out there that I'm aware of and their models retail in the range of $500+ ! These manufacturers would likely be unwilling to offer their wares as reduced cost kits as it would be a matter of cutting their own throats, financially. Even if kits were offered, most hobbyists today probably wouldn't be capable of assembling them successfully! Bowser realized that of late. Thus, neither approach would be the answer to the current problem.
NevinW I agree, $300-350 is not an unreasonable MSRP for a well made small steam engine with a sound system. I would easily purchase 3-4 if they met my needs. On the other hand I have not bought a single large steam engine. I have no use for a Big Boy on my layout, so they are missing out on my money. There are certainly more small layouts than large ones so I suspect that the market for small steam locomotives isn't as small as implied by some. - Nevin
In agreement with Nevin, and as a reminder to all the manufacturers listening:
I'm building a large layout, and do have a few large locos, BUT, I have mostly "medium" sized, "work a day" locos like 2-8-0's, 4-8-2's, 2-8-2's, etc.
And more importantly - in a roster of over 120 locos, half steam, I don't own any of the following:
Big Boy, Challenger, FEF, NYC Hudson, N&W J, PRR ANYTHING, SP cab forward, SP GS4, etc, etc.
If fact, of all the "over produced" and "duplicated effort" locos out there, the only ones I have are 5 Lima Berkshires, which I converted to heavy Mikados. And guess what, they are not Proto or MTH, but lowly Bachmann - and they look and run great.
So if you continue to make more of he above list rather than something new, my money will stay in my pocket.
That may be the issue right there. If the dollar bill comes first and foremost then there will be NO way that ANY amount of effort would be worth it...
Then just let the market die off completely and let it go at that.
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So far our price point is not nearly so high as all that...what I'm thinking of here is that there has to be a better business model other than one which sees the money as the first thing. I do know of a couple of custom builders who charge around $400-600 for their work as well. But they are making a living off of this type of work in other fields as well...
If one thinks that it needs be done on a full time basis...then fine...it will fall by the wayside...we need a broader set of motivation here...if we are to see anything...
There is a nice N&W 2-8-0 W2 made by NWSL that is brass. It was built in the 1970's. I have 2 of them and they run great. Cost about $200.00 per locomotive.
Craig North Carolina
I would agree. I have noticed only big mikes and the such out. I want some small steam shortline locomotives.
~G4
19 Years old, modeling the Cowlitz, Chehalis, and Cascade Railroad of Western Washington in 1927 in 6X6 feet.
Although PRR is well represented in HO, I'd still love to see BLI do a G-5 4-6-0 and a E-6 4-4-2. Yes I know I can get them in Brass - just sayin. Any version of a PRR 2-8-0 would be awesome too.
Chris
One of the biggest problems hurting the small steam market is that the model companies don't support the eras that would use the small steam. There hasn't been a new model of a wood underframe car produced by a major plastic model maker in about 40 years. What was the commodity that accounted for the most tonnage hauled by US railroads prior to WW1? Coal. How many plastic model wood underframe coal cars are in production? Zero. How many plastic model wood underframe coal cars have been produced ever? ZERO.
There is also a lot of opportunity if the steam model companies will borrow a page from the diesel designers. Who is the company that has made the most small steam engines over the years? Roundhouse. They have interchangeable boilers, drivers and details. If Bachmann would merely replace the electric headlights with kerosene lights and remove the valve gear form its 4-4-0 and 4-6-0 models it could end up with a whole new market for its engines. Replace the boiler with a smaller one or a camelback (in electric and oil lamp headlight versions) and you could get more variation with minimal cost.
For example taking the Mantua 0-6-0 camelback boiler/cab and lengthening the firebox by about 3-4 ft gives almost a perfect boiler to put on a Bachmann/Roundhouse 4-4-0, Bachmann 4-6-0 or Roundhouse 2-8-0.
2-8-0 chassis's with 50", 56" and 62" drivers would allow literally hundereds of variations of engines. Those same 56" and 63" drivers would cover hundreds of 4-4-0 and 4-6-0 variations also.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
dehusman One of the biggest problems hurting the small steam market is that the model companies don't support the eras that would use the small steam. There hasn't been a new model of a wood underframe car produced by a major plastic model maker in about 40 years. What was the commodity that accounted for the most tonnage hauled by US railroads prior to WW1? Coal. How many plastic model wood underframe coal cars are in production? Zero. How many plastic model wood underframe coal cars have been produced ever? ZERO. There is also a lot of opportunity if the steam model companies will borrow a page from the diesel designers. Who is the company that has made the most small steam engines over the years? Roundhouse. They have interchangeable boilers, drivers and details. If Bachmann would merely replace the electric headlights with kerosene lights and remove the valve gear form its 4-4-0 and 4-6-0 models it could end up with a whole new market for its engines. Replace the boiler with a smaller one or a camelback (in electric and oil lamp headlight versions) and you could get more variation with minimal cost. For example taking the Mantua 0-6-0 camelback boiler/cab and lengthening the firebox by about 3-4 ft gives almost a perfect boiler to put on a Bachmann/Roundhouse 4-4-0, Bachmann 4-6-0 or Roundhouse 2-8-0. 2-8-0 chassis's with 50", 56" and 62" drivers would allow literally hundereds of variations of engines. Those same 56" and 63" drivers would cover hundreds of 4-4-0 and 4-6-0 variations also.
Dave, All good points and I have pointed out repeatedly the ablitiy to make multiple prototypes with minor changes.
However, there were a large number of early 20th century, small but modern steam locos, that lasted well into the steel car, WWII age, and a few that lasted to the end of steam.
Modern Ten Wheelers like the B&O B18's lasted just about to the end. Many Atlantics had similar life spans.
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/bo2020s.jpg
Locos like these could easily be modeled both "as built" and "as modernized"
And while small steam is seriously lacking, "medium" sized steam is weakly represented as well. Mikados, Pacifics, Hudsons (that are not NYC), and consolidations, while represented are poorly covered at best.
Yet we have the luxury of debating "which Big Boy is best"?
I will repeat, just in case some manufacturer is listening - Make a model of a B&O B18 and I will by a 6 pack, not just one.
Same goes for a nice Atlantic, Pacific, etc.
I model the ever popular transition era, 1954. Taking advantage of what is available I have two Spectrum Ten wheelers, and yes Bachmann modeled them "as modernized" and I modernized them even more with newer tenders and converted to oil burners.
They reprent the ATLANTIC CENTRAL equal to a B&O B8, an 1890's era Ten Wheeler, many of which were modernized and lasted in the late 40's.
But I would love to have some 1902-1915 type power - as described and linked to above.
And this Atlantic was photgraphed in 1939: http://photoswest.org/cgi-bin/imager?00002421
And this one 1934: http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/bo1428s.jpg
Anyway my point is there was plenty of small "work a day" steam all through the first half of the 20th Century. It sure would be great to have some affordable models of some of it.
So was this one: http://www.yesteryeardepot.com/SP3001.JPG
SP had 4 of these A-6's, rebuilt in the 1920's from A-3 Atlantics of 1904-1906 vintage. Boiler pressure was raised from 200 psi to 210. Cylinders went from 20x28 to 22x28. Boosters and feedwater heater were added. Tractive effort without booster was almost as much as a P-5 Pacific. In 1947, two of the A-6's were repainted (cab and tender) into Daylight colors to handle the Sacramento section of the San Joaquin Daylight. The last of SP's 4-4-2' s lasted until 1952
As built: http://espee.railfan.net/nonindex/steam-02/3048_sp-steam-a03-byron_bostwick.jpg
Some A-3's went through a less extensive rebuild as seen here: http://www.yesteryeardepot.com/SP3036.JPG
Some of SP's Light Harriman Pacifics went through similar rebuilds.
In any case, once you've got a chassis, you've got a basis for making a lot of variations around a theme.
Andre
Andre,
Yes that SP A-6 is a beauty, I'll take six of those as well!
Thank you for some additional examples.