Completely agree, Jon.
Sean
HO Scale CSX Modeler
Odie CNJ831: Odie, you, like a number of other posters I believe have missed what the intended objective of MR's annual "Project Layout" is. Where is this supposed objective stated in print? Is this the perceived objective, or a stated one? I didn't see anything about the layout being specifically for beginners. In fact, the front cover of the magazine says "Learn beginner and advanced how-to techniques from the MR staff"
CNJ831: Odie, you, like a number of other posters I believe have missed what the intended objective of MR's annual "Project Layout" is.
Odie, you, like a number of other posters I believe have missed what the intended objective of MR's annual "Project Layout" is.
Where is this supposed objective stated in print? Is this the perceived objective, or a stated one? I didn't see anything about the layout being specifically for beginners. In fact, the front cover of the magazine says "Learn beginner and advanced how-to techniques from the MR staff"
Odie - This idea is first presented in print in, I believe, the December 1953 MR, therein associated with a project called either The Pine Tree Central, or The Yuletide Central. The editorial found in that same issue indicates that this is a layout for the beginner. This idea is repeated many times in print over the subsequent 50 years.
The justification for these project layouts is, according to MR, the introduction of folks who happened to obtain HO train sets at Christmas to the world of adult model railroading. The layouts presented are relatively simple in concept and design. Step-by-step instructions on how to build them is presented over the course of the January, February and March issues. It is logically concluded by the MR staff that if the potential hobbyist can quickly create an operating layout his interest in the new found hobby will not ebb. The choice in size of 4x8, or 5x9, allows the hobbyist to see rapid progress and have his trains running within weeks of starting.
For more than 50 years MR has continued this tradition, although the sophistication of the annual project layouts has steadily increased to match the range of products available to the hobbyist. At other times of the year more challenging project layouts have occasionally been presented, but the example starting in the January issue has alway been directed toward those new to layout building. The Bay Junction is the first to break with this long tradition, the article being really nothing more than the byproduct of a modification project to a section of the MR&T by the staff, not a layout specifically designed for the first time layout builder.
CNJ831
Odie - This idea is first presented in print in, I believe, the December 1953 MR, therein associated with a project called either The Pine Tree Central, or The Yuletide Central. The editorial found in that same issue indicates that this is a layout for the beginner. This is repeated many times in print over the subsequent 50 years. The justification for these projects is the introduction of folks who happened to obtain HO train sets at Christmas to the world of adult model railroading. The layouts presented are relatively simple in concept and design. Step-by-step instructions on how to build them is presented over the course of the January, February and March issues. It is logically concluded that if the potential hobbyist can quickly create an operating layout his interest in the new found hobby will not ebb. The choice in size of 4x8, or 5x9, allows the hobbyist to see rapid progress and have his trains running within weeks of starting.
For more than 50 years MR has continued this tradition, although the sophistication of the annual project layouts has steadily increased to match the range of products available to the hobbyist. At other times of the year more challenging project layouts have occasionally been presented, but the example starting in the January issue has alway been directed toward those new to layout building. The Bay Junction is the first to break with this long tradition, being really nothing more than the byproduct of a modification project to a section of the MR&T by the staff, not a layout specifically designed for the first time layout builder.
Odie - This idea is first presented in print in, I believe, the December 1953 MR, therein associated with a project called either The Pine Tree Central, or The Yuletide Central. The editorial found in that same issue indicates that this is a layout for the novice, or beginner. This is repeated many times in print over the subsequent 50 years.
The justification for these layout projects is the introduction of folks who happened to obtain HO train sets at Christmas to the world of adult model railroading. The layouts presented are purposely relatively simple in concept and design. Step-by-step instructions on how to build them is usually presented over the course of the January, February and March issues. It was logically concluded by the MR staff that if the potential hobbyist can quickly create an operating layout his interest in the new found hobby would not quickly ebb. The choice in size of 4x8, or 5x9, allowed the hobbyist to see rapid progress and have his trains running within weeks of starting, an ideal situation.
For more than 50 years MR has continued this tradition, although the sophistication of the annual project layouts has steadily increased to match the range of products available to the hobbyist. At other times of the year more challenging project layouts have occasionally been presented, but the example starting in the January issue has alway been directed toward those new to layout building. The Bay Junction is the first to break with this long tradition, the article really being nothing more than the byproduct of a modification to a section of the MR&T by the staff, not a layout specifically designed for the first time layout builder.
Odie - This idea is first presented in print in, I believe, the December 1953 MR, therein associated with a project called either The Pine Tree Central, or The Yuletide Central. The editorial found in that same issue indicates that this is a layout for the beginner. This is repeated many times in print over the subsequent 50 years.
The justification for these project layouts is presented as the introduction of folks who happened to obtain HO train sets at Christmas to the world of adult model railroading. The layouts presented are purposely relatively simple in concept and design. Step-by-step instructions on how to build them are presented over the course of the January, February and March issues. It was logically concluded by the MR staff that if the potential hobbyist could quickly create an operating layout his interest in the new found hobby would not quickly ebb. The choice in size of 4x8, or 5x9, allowed the hobbyist to see rapid progress and have his trains running within weeks of starting.
For more than 50 years MR has continued this tradition with the same purpose in mind, although the sophistication of the annual project layouts has steadily increased to match the range of products available to the hobbyist. At other times of the year more challenging project layouts for the more experienced have occasionally been presented, but the example starting in the January issue has alway been directed toward those new to layout building. The Bay Junction is the first to break with this long tradition, the article being really nothing more than the byproduct of a modification project to a section of the MR&T by the staff, not a layout specifically designed for the first time layout builder.
Hmmm. I knew that I was encountering proplems with the system when I entered my latest post last night, but! It appears that each of my attempts to edit the original in fact generated a separate new posting! Sorry 'bout that!
Since none of us has the MR&T to add on to, it stands to reason that an article about just such an addition is not going to be any other modeler's project, at least not on an as is basis. I assume that is never actually the purpose of these project layouts. Rather they are an excuse to go through the entire catechism from track laying on up to wiring and scenery.
Most project layouts over the years have some central idea -- whether an experiment in using Kato prefab track, or a layout that can be arranged in different ways, showing how L girder works, showing what can be done with the flat table top + cookie cutter changes, that sort of thing.
I always thought one of the most interesting project layouts was in the 1960s: the Sierra Pintada. It was itself rather large and while it could be operated as is as a switching layout, it was intended as part of something even larger that was never actually built. It really showed the flexibility of L girder.
The theme this year, if I read the article correctly, deals with adding a second working railroad interchange, where an operable amount of the secondary railroad is actually modeled (as opposed to the Bill Darnaby/Tony Koester style "crossing to nowhere/interchange siding/swapping out cars between sessions" approach). And the lesson conveyed is that this takes a considerable amount of space. There is clearly layout planning/design SIG interest in interchanges (and an entire Kalmbach booklet), so it is useful to see a project railroad that tries to really do it up right. Those who simply don't have the space will have to ratchet back their planning accordingly. As an educational demonstration that probably makes more sense than to start with the compromise and have the reader imagine how it could be made bigger or more complete.
Dave Nelson
CNJ831 Odie - This idea is first presented in print in, I believe, the December 1953 MR, therein associated with a project called either The Pine Tree Central, or The Yuletide Central. The editorial found in that same issue indicates that this is a layout for the beginner. This is repeated many times in print over the subsequent 50 years.
I agree that at the outset of many past project layouts, the editors have stated their intent that the series of articles will help novice modelers take their new train set and turn it into a functional model railroad. But, I don't believe the MR staff has ever stated that, "all MR project layouts must be, and always will be, designed, built and described only for beginners"?
As has been stated by previous posters, there have been several notable MR project layouts that defy the generalization of a beginner's layout: the Washita & Santa Fe, the N-scale BN layout from the early '90's, the Wisconsin Central layout from the late '90's, etc . . . Even the most eager beginner would have been greatly challenged to follow along with these more elaborate layouts. As perceptive as the MR staff is, they must have known this when they commissioned these layouts, thus proving that not all project layouts are inteded for first time efforts by beginners.
Some may feel that all project layouts should be beginner layouts, but the current MR staff has plenty of precedent for stepping outside this box and doing something different.
Tom
I like the project layout...although it is a little to big for my available room it is nonetheless interesting to read about how such a layout is built....also..reglardless of wether the layout is like mine, there's always something valuable that I can use.
dknelson The theme this year, if I read the article correctly, deals with adding a second working railroad interchange, where an operable amount of the secondary railroad is actually modeled (as opposed to the Bill Darnaby/Tony Koester style "crossing to nowhere/interchange siding/swapping out cars between sessions" approach).
The theme this year, if I read the article correctly, deals with adding a second working railroad interchange, where an operable amount of the secondary railroad is actually modeled (as opposed to the Bill Darnaby/Tony Koester style "crossing to nowhere/interchange siding/swapping out cars between sessions" approach).
Right-on Dave! And if I may be so bold... I preduct that this project may be a pivotal moment in MRR-ing. Working junctions multiply the operational possibilities many-fold, far beyond the usual passing- siding-with-industries. However, they are seldom modeled, even though they can be effectively done with a single loop that is off-the-mainline and splits to 2 or 3 double-ended staging tracks.
Just as Tony Koester finally herded all of us into seeing staging as an essential, I see this project as awakening the operationally-oriented modeler to the point where junctions become major features on layouts.
Jim
Further on my original post on this thread, I certainly do not intend to incorporate the layout into my Santa Fe layout, but, there are some structures on the layout that I am interested in and my "waiting with bated breath" is simply to see how and what they used to build them. Thus, even though I don't build the layout, I will still get some value from the stories.
Bob
pastorbob Further on my original post on this thread, I certainly do not intend to incorporate the layout into my Santa Fe layout, but, there are some structures on the layout that I am interested in and my "waiting with bated breath" is simply to see how and what they used to build them. Thus, even though I don't build the layout, I will still get some value from the stories. Bob
Sure, most ppf us will not build it but the point is that we can all learn something from this layout. What we can learn will be different for each of us.
Frankly if you can't learn anything from this article then maybe their is another you can learn from. If you don;'t think you can learn anything, then maybe you should be writing and submiting your own articles.
So if you are complaining about everything you see in Model Railroader, let the powers that be know about and offer suggestions on what can done to change things.
Irv
I hate to bring up such an old thread, but I blame having access to MR archives. =-)
I've been looking at this plan and feel it is pretty good for what I want for operations. I can run Amtrak and Metra trains one night, or I can run a day's sequenc. I like the standalone plan, with a loop. I don't think I can be convinced a point to point layout is a good idea. I like to let my kids run trains too.
so, for this layout, and my available basement area being 13' x 12' should I take Bay Junction and chop it in half and put a curve in it with staging on the opposite side, or should I make it in N scale as the standalone version (HO was roughly 6'x26'). another benefit of N scale would be more Chicago Metra car choices.
what radius curve would you use for the ends in N scale? I'm mostly familiar with HO scale. could you do a 13' L girder with only legs on both ends? Or would you need more? since my basement is unfinished I need to have a freestanding layout. Do N scale engines have DCC/sound?
Any suggestions before I make the switch? I was thinking about ordering a few models to see if I like them.