BRAKIE John,I think one reason Craftsman is on the endanger list is because very little needs scratchbuilding and many isn't all that enthused about a box full of wood since the finish building probably won't fit our era since most wooden kits look like it belongs in a "Popeye" movie set in the early 1900s. (snip) As you know the hobby has changed and RTR has very little to do with it..Its far to complex for that. Look how improve the majority of today's layouts are compared to(say) 10 years ago..
John,I think one reason Craftsman is on the endanger list is because very little needs scratchbuilding and many isn't all that enthused about a box full of wood since the finish building probably won't fit our era since most wooden kits look like it belongs in a "Popeye" movie set in the early 1900s.
(snip)
As you know the hobby has changed and RTR has very little to do with it..Its far to complex for that.
Look how improve the majority of today's layouts are compared to(say) 10 years ago..
Quite to the contrary, Larry, RTR has everything to do with it. From all that I have seen, the bulk of new hobbyists today aren't desirous of building their own models (of whatever) largely because they lack the basic ability to do so, as well as the desire to gain the needed skills. This is repeatedly reflected in the threads found here. At the same time, it is almost laughable to consider that the layouts hobbyists dream about in the magazines, or on-line examples many aspire to one day have, are always built by true craftsmen who do-it-all themselves. Likewise, the thrust of the marketplace is increasingly toward the hobbyist doing as little as possible for himself, an approach that renders the hobby as simply about playing with miniature trains, rather than becoming an actual model railroader.
You say look how improved the majority of layouts are today, as compared with 10 years ago. Where do you see any actual evidence of that? I know that for years the claim was that RTR freed up the hobbyist to spend more time building a better layout. So where are they all? I've pointed out previously that if this were so, then this hugely popular website, with its membership of 60,000+ would be anticipated to have many thousands of quality "typical" layouts in evidence. However, it seems incapable of generating more than a mere handful of examples on the WPF threads. And week to week it is usually composed of images by just the same few hobbyists! Definitely food for thought on this question!
CNJ831
Larry, the only reason those craftsmen kits look like they belong on the "popeye" set is all those Craftsmen clones of George Sellios. You're on those other forums, those guys all build them the same way. Look at John's build or Dick Ellwell's builds of craftsmen kits, they don't have that same over-weathered, fallen down look.Craftsmen kits can fit any era to some degree, you have to think outside the Sellios' factor.
As for bb kits, they were made from the trainset era of the sixties when a boxcar was a boxcar.Outdated molds and concepts on many cars,if you re-call the first time this news broke, most guys quit buying them years ago.mh.
CNJ831 BRAKIE: John,I think one reason Craftsman is on the endanger list is because very little needs scratchbuilding and many isn't all that enthused about a box full of wood since the finish building probably won't fit our era since most wooden kits look like it belongs in a "Popeye" movie set in the early 1900s. (snip) As you know the hobby has changed and RTR has very little to do with it..Its far to complex for that. Look how improve the majority of today's layouts are compared to(say) 10 years ago.. Quite to the contrary, Larry, RTR has everything to do with it. From all that I have seen, the bulk of new hobbyists today aren't desirous of building their own models (of whatever) largely because they lack the basic ability to do so, as well as the desire to gain the needed skills. This is repeatedly reflected in the threads found here. At the same time, it is almost laughable to consider that the layouts hobbyists dream about in the magazines, or on-line examples many aspire to one day have, are always built by true craftsmen who do-it-all themselves. Likewise, the thrust of the marketplace is increasingly toward the hobbyist doing as little as possible for himself, an approach that renders the hobby as simply about playing with miniature trains, rather than becoming an actual model railroader. You say look how improved the majority of layouts are today, as compared with 10 years ago. Where do you see any actual evidence of that? I know that for years the claim was that RTR freed up the hobbyist to spend more time building a better layout. So where are they all? I've pointed out previously that if this were so, then this hugely popular website, with its membership of 60,000+ would be anticipated to have many thousands of quality "typical" layouts in evidence. However, it seems incapable of generating more than a mere handful of examples on the WPF threads. And week to week it is usually images by just the same few hobbyists! Definitely food for thought on this question! CNJ831
BRAKIE: John,I think one reason Craftsman is on the endanger list is because very little needs scratchbuilding and many isn't all that enthused about a box full of wood since the finish building probably won't fit our era since most wooden kits look like it belongs in a "Popeye" movie set in the early 1900s. (snip) As you know the hobby has changed and RTR has very little to do with it..Its far to complex for that. Look how improve the majority of today's layouts are compared to(say) 10 years ago..
You say look how improved the majority of layouts are today, as compared with 10 years ago. Where do you see any actual evidence of that? I know that for years the claim was that RTR freed up the hobbyist to spend more time building a better layout. So where are they all? I've pointed out previously that if this were so, then this hugely popular website, with its membership of 60,000+ would be anticipated to have many thousands of quality "typical" layouts in evidence. However, it seems incapable of generating more than a mere handful of examples on the WPF threads. And week to week it is usually images by just the same few hobbyists! Definitely food for thought on this question!
John,I believe you're not seeing the big picture and how the hobby has changed over the past few years.
Scratch Building has been a dying a slow death for many years-and it started with the brass imports of the 50's..
Today's modeler is only scratch builds/kitbashing as needed again I've seen beautiful scratchbuilt modern "box" factories and warehouses.The day of buying a pile of wood is nearly over now its mattboard and ABS plastic for those box buildings.
As far as WPF that's a poor measure since its usually the same posters every week.Check other forums WPF.
This isn't the same hobby you and I grew up with..Take a good look around at the younger modelers-they are the true indicators of the direction the hobby is heading and generic seems to out in the coming years and I dare say the day of the anything goes causal modeler may go by the wayside..
John,Some times I wonder if old dinosaurs like us will fit in the "new" hobby.You with your scratch builders flag and me with my good enough/close enough flag..Naw both flags will more then likely fall to the "new and improved" hobby flag that looms on the horizon.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
m horton Larry, the only reason those craftsmen kits look like they belong on the "popeye" set is all those Craftsmen clones of George Sellios. You're on those other forums, those guys all build them the same way. Look at John's build or Dick Ellwell's builds of craftsmen kits, they don't have that same over-weathered, fallen down look.Craftsmen kits can fit any era to some degree, you have to think outside the Sellios' factor. As for bb kits, they were made from the trainset era of the sixties when a boxcar was a boxcar.Outdated molds and concepts on many cars,if you re-call the first time this news broke, most guys quit buying them years ago.mh.
I agree but,still a lot of the old wooden warehouses,factories etc is long gone replace by modern "box" buildings.
As far as the BB kits..I don't miss them since the RTR is superior to those old kits.
They filled their purpose over the years but,as you mention they became outdated as the hobby grew up.
True, Larry, now a days it's steel beam and concrete walls for the most part, except some older east coast mills and such, and many craftsmen kit buildings fall into the small building with barely enough room for a boxcar load to fit. Almost a trainset mentality, but with a hefty ptice.mh
A copy of the "Popeye" movie set, that's rich, couldn't have said it better if I had tried.
I'll stay with layouts like drwayne's layout, from what I have seen of it, and that isn't much, it looks more like what I remember the steam era reflected.
Just my opinion..........
Mark
To all following the "craftsman" kit debate and the nature of those kits:
Wiether you build a Campbell or FSM kit to look new or run down, they reflect a specific type of structure from several specific eras and locales. I understand that might not be what some of you are modeling. That does not make them unprototypical for every layout.
Again it seems, like in many of these discussions, some posters only see the world through what they model, their era, locale, type of rairoad, etc.
In years past, companies like FSM, Campbell and others purposely chose smaller, rural prototypes becase they better suited the small layouts many modelers built.
AND, because so much HAD to be built, many modelers purposely chose to model small rural lines that would require less space, equipment, structures, track, etc, etc.
Modeling the large Class I railroad mainline was often left to large clubs.
Today all that is different. And considering that companies like Campbell, SS Ltd, FSM and other started some 30-40 years ago, there has since been 30 years of "new" history to model.
This is also a point "missed" in these discussions. Modeling "present day" when I started in the hobby meant freight cars with roof walks, trains with cabooses, and 1500 hp diesels.
As for craftsman kits of large scale urban settings, how about CMR, http://www.cmrtrain.com . They make lots of large, well detailed, properly proportioned urban buildings that regardless of construction date, that still stand today. And their kits are far from "shake the box" regardless of the material they are made of.
I don't have any magic figures on how many model railroaders there are, or how many build what types of kits, but from what I see, those interested in building stuff is declining.
I model 1954, so a large precentage of the "new" product out there is of NO INTEREST to me. What's a "double stack", or a SD70abcdefg, or a Bethgon whatever - be it kit or RTR. Remember its a big hobby that spans 180 years of history now.
To the guy who made the comment about "back in the day" and the generic "Athearn box cars" - fact is there were a lot less "types" steel box cars back then and many were very similar in size, design and features. And interestingly enough, Athearn was one of the first companies to start coming out with more modern boxcars as they began to appear in the 60's and early 70's - 50' outside braced plug door cars, "railbox" cars, etc, etc. - again remenber none of that stuff existed when Athearn tooled up that "generic" 40' steel car.
Sheldon
the only common thing about those early boxcars you talk of is the length, Athearns early foray into fifty foot boxcars(plugdoor and mech reefers ) were basically all wrong, wrong ends,roofs,underframes and paint jobs.mh
AS someone pointed out, much of Athearn's RTR selection is simply blue box that's been assembled with a few details added. Many are also from MDC/Roundhouse.
Personally, I only miss BB/MDC because of the low price. I liked assembling kits, but I don't mind not doing it.
Also I would like to lament the lack of Dummy engines. Though, using the Atlas parts department, you might be able to build one from parts for less than a full priced engine...assuming they have all parts in stock.
As for actually buying BB/MDC kits at swap meets/LHS. I do see thousands of them and they are for the most part all kits I have zero interest in. I model modern or at least late 70s to present and while there are some kits appropriate to that, I rarely see them available. I would, for instance, kill to find some MDC 50' high cube boxes and their 62' bulkhead flat.
For locomotives, sure, I see many of them out on the tables, but they are almost always overpriced and are usually limited to the widebody models. If you can find an SD40-2/T-2 or the GP38-2/40-2/50 or the newer Dash-9, then you are luckier than I and if you do find them, odds are they are over priced.
One thing I also want to find that I don't see many of is an MDC/Roundhouse Steamer kit. I'm not picky about which one, but I've always wanted to build one of them and I never had the opportunity. You simply don't see those at all.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Today all that is different. And considering that companies like Campbell, SS Ltd, FSM and other started some 30-40 years ago, there has since been 30 years of "new" history to model. This is also a point "missed" in these discussions. Modeling "present day" when I started in the hobby meant freight cars with roof walks, trains with cabooses, and 1500 hp diesels. As for craftsman kits of large scale urban settings, how about CMR, http://www.cmrtrain.com . They make lots of large, well detailed, properly proportioned urban buildings that regardless of construction date, that still stand today. And their kits are far from "shake the box" regardless of the material they are made of. I don't have any magic figures on how many model railroaders there are, or how many build what types of kits, but from what I see, those interested in building stuff is declining.
Sheldon, I would hasten to point out to those who might question the level of interest in, or which way interest in craftsman model building is going, as well as their strength of numbers, that the fact is over the past 10-15 years the hobby has seen a rapid increase in the number of craftsman kit manufacturers that definitely out numbers the new RTR makers. Today there are many times more kit makers than ever existed at any previous time in the hobby. To give some idea of the current diversity, the link below takes you to a craftsman kit dealer's site. The majority of the companies listed on the page are strictly HO craftsman kit providers.
http://valleymodeltrains.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=21
Few of these companies advertise widely and almost none do so in Model Railroader because of the type of modeler it largely caters to. Many advertise by fliers sent directly to hobbyists known to be interested in such kits, some simply through their website. Likewise, word of mouth from kit builder to kit builder generates much of their sales. This is why so many, particular on forums such as this one, don't realize just how strong the craftsman builder aspect still is in the hobby. While we may no longer be the majority, we remain a highly viable segment and certainly one not likely to disappear any time soon...in spite of what some might say.
Definitely true this...
The list keeps growing too by the looks of things....
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
There still are many craftsman kits offered today. I feel one thing preventing newer modelers from trying them is the high cost. Maybe I'm showing my age, but I remember buying Campbell kits at the LHS. Most were less then ten bucks. Have you seen the current prices in the Walthers catalog? I'm not saying they aren't worth it, but with the fear of being unable to build it, many won't risk 60 to 70 dollars. Limited edition kits are price in the hundreds.
Rolling stock is another matter. I would much rather build a P2K or Branchline Blueprint kit versus buying a ready to run version of the same, unless I can buy that RTR car for what I would spend on the kit. Being a tight-wad I have a problem paying 25 to 35 dollars for a plastic freight car. Many of us entered the hobby with a ready to run train set and advanced to kit building. All we can do is encourage the new guys to follow.
I would sign.
My 12 year old son, a 3rd generation modeler is very unhappy about this too. It seems amazingly short sighted that for a hobby that is trying to attract younger people that it ignores what those kids want. My son is a Scout and they build a variety of kits for various projects(not RR modeling related). Boys like to build things!!! It's one of the ways that they learn. A well known example are the Cubscout's Pinewood Derby cars.
These kits were cheap and easy to build for boys around his age and those of his friends. Doing so gave them a sense of accomplishment.
I have written Athearn and passed along these perspectives to the LHS. But, I think the hobby is being driven by what the old guys want---RTR--where we have the money and not so much the eyesight. Yes, my son would save up his money to buy a BB kit. At around $7+/- he could do that. The approx $30 cars---aren't going to happen for him, so yes he is discouraged about that too. This has made it too expensive for him to have "ownership" in the hobby.
By the time he's 14 or more, the hormones will be kicking in and then "gas and girls"(as we say in the Scouts) will become a distraction. But he would have had that base created as a youngster which would come back to him later in life. Now, I'm not so sure.
I say all of this in the post, hoping that someone pays attention to the ripple effect as well.
Richard
In answer on post of Atlantic Central
Ok but I can not be at those train shows where those dealers are with a lot of Blue Box kits.
Is there someone who has a link to a dealer with so much blue box kits?
I live over sea and here we find not them anymore
Hi!
I've been working with BB kits since the '60s! Sad they are out of vogue, BUT, there is hope.
Lots of them are listed on Ebay, especially this time of year. Remember, Athearn (and MDC) also sold their undecorated kits to folks like Bev-Bel, who applied some really nice paint jobs and graphics to them.
Last I looked, both kits and built examples are plentiful on Ebay. Check it out, you will be surprised!
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
The LION doesn't run much in the way of freight cars anymore. Some of my 50' boxcars are being converted to NYCT flats.
Blue Boxes. They make cool storage boxes, easy to label, stack nicely. LION has lots of them.!
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
Martin4What I would like is that they offered their current super-detailed models as kits.
Train Modeler I would sign. My 12 year old son, a 3rd generation modeler is very unhappy about this too. It seems amazingly short sighted that for a hobby that is trying to attract younger people that it ignores what those kids want. My son is a Scout and they build a variety of kits for various projects(not RR modeling related). Boys like to build things!!! It's one of the ways that they learn. A well known example are the Cubscout's Pinewood Derby cars. These kits were cheap and easy to build for boys around his age and those of his friends. Doing so gave them a sense of accomplishment.
Rather it would be short sighted if Athearn continued to widely produce and distribute a product that generally didn't sell. Especially if poor business moves like that eventually put them out of business. Instead, why don't you visit the next big trainshow within striking distance and stock up on blue box kits that are on the tables in large quantities. Just buy a box full to keep Jr busy unit the next train show eh. Problem solved.
I have written Athearn and passed along these perspectives to the LHS. But, I think the hobby is being driven by what the old guys want---RTR--where we have the money and not so much the eyesight. Yes, my son would save up his money to buy a BB kit. At around $7+/- he could do that. The approx $30 cars---aren't going to happen for him, so yes he is discouraged about that too. This has made it too expensive for him to have "ownership" in the hobby. By the time he's 14 or more, the hormones will be kicking in and then "gas and girls"(as we say in the Scouts) will become a distraction. But he would have had that base created as a youngster which would come back to him later in life. Now, I'm not so sure. I say all of this in the post, hoping that someone pays attention to the ripple effect as well. Richard
You can make up whatever reason you want, but if a products sales are slow enough, a company has to shift to what products do sell well. So many answer is, see my above comment - again, problem solved. So get crackin before those hormones kick in!
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
You can make up whatever reason you want, but if a products sales are slow enough, a company has to shift to what products do sell well.
----------------------------
According to Athearn's reply on their facebook blog the kits was not selling and Athearn had to make a tough call..Discontinue the BB kits.
If one cares to read more closely I think Athearn was in poor financial shape when Horizon bought them.I know Athearn has turned out new or improved models since the buyout.
So,which would be better?
A new and improved Athearn or a closed Athearn from the lack of kit sales??
As Jim stated attend trains shows and stock up on old BB kits.
PS..Accurail still makes affordable car kits.
There are Athearn RTR cars available at msrp $20 and discount for $15. There are Accurail kits at $14 msrp and discounted to $11 or $12. There are some Model Power RTR cars for $10 msrp discounted down a couple of dollars.
Old BB kits at the last train show I was at could be had for $8. Maybe some for less as I wasn't really looking for them. As others have said - stock up now.
All this says that no one's going to be making new sub $10 msrp kits, but kits are still available. And there are discounts. I suggest you check out MB Klein http://www.modeltrainstuff.com/
Enjoy
Paul
For those who just plain like the Athearn blue box type of kit for ease of construction and good basic quality the Bowser and Accurail kits are for all practical purposes of the same sort of kit.
For those who want Athearn blue box because a box car kit was $1.79 list price -- ah .... sorry I can't help you. MR was 50 cents an issue at that time. We won't even talk about a gallon of gas....
Dave Nelson
BRAKIE You can make up whatever reason you want, but if a products sales are slow enough, a company has to shift to what products do sell well. ---------------------------- According to Athearn's reply on their facebook blog the kits was not selling and Athearn had to make a tough call..Discontinue the BB kits. If one cares to read more closely I think Athearn was in poor financial shape when Horizon bought them.I know Athearn has turned out new or improved models since the buyout. So,which would be better? A new and improved Athearn or a closed Athearn from the lack of kit sales?? As Jim stated attend trains shows and stock up on old BB kits. PS..Accurail still makes affordable car kits.
I don't know that Athearn was "in trouble" when Horizon bought them, but they definately were at a transition point as the market was changing - maybe they needed Horizon to make that transition, maybe not.
But one thing is for sure - they made the transition and dispite all the nay sayers, they have come back stronger than ever.
Interest in kits has clearly fallen off. Many modelers today prefer RTR, be it more afordable stuff like Athearn or more expensive stuff.
But kits of all skill levels, materials, and prices are still out there if you look. If your not a kit builder, you won't be looking very hard, so you won't find them.
I buy lots of Athearn Ready to Roll, I buy some of the more expensive RTR stuff, but I also still buy and build a lot of kits, easy kits, hard kits, wood kits, resin kits, plastic kits.
I have a big stock of unbuilt ones, I buy more all the time, Athearn, Intermountain, Proto, F&C, Accurail, Bowser, etc, etc.
Fact is, a large portion of the Athearn Ready to Roll line is just Athearn Blue Box kit cars, or MDC kit cars, with a few upgrades. Now sold RTR.
For those of you not old enough to have knowledge of the dark ages known as the 1960's, Athearn sold their whole line of plastic freight cars both in kits - the boxes were yellow back then, not blue - and as RTR items fully assembled for about 50% more.
Interest in RTR HO died out, they stopped making the RTR versions, by the 70's the kit boxes changed to blue.
And now it is reversed - RTR rules, no more Athearn kits - EXCEPT for the undecorated items - thank goodness.
I read that the kits are going for $5 at train shows... ive searched the internet high and low since i read that in this thread looking for $5 kits
i cant find them... does anybody have a link to a buyer selling them for 5 bucks? i'd pick up several every 2 weeks when i got paid if they were only 5 bucks still...
304live I read that the kits are going for $5 at train shows... ive searched the internet high and low since i read that in this thread looking for $5 kits i cant find them... does anybody have a link to a buyer selling them for 5 bucks? i'd pick up several every 2 weeks when i got paid if they were only 5 bucks still...
You read they were selling at train shows for $5.00 for kits. I saw some at the Timonium show for that yes, so in answer to your questions, perhaps the reason you can't find them on the internet for that cheap is because you aren't looking at a train show, instead you are looking on the internet. Key difference there. Go to some train shows and maybe you'll find some. Quite frankly train shows vary from one to another, but if you go to enough, you WILL find some good deals. I saw more good deals at the last Timonium MD show than the previous one for example.
I seen 'em 3/$10.00 at some train shows and as high as $15.00!!!!! Rare! Collectable! so read the sign.
southernpacificgs4
Georges Trains in Toronto is currently offering BB kits - 6 for $39.99 Cdn. Not sure what the shipping cost would be or if they will even ship overseas but here is their website:
http://georgestrains.com/
One other good source that I don't think has been mentioned is Tichy Trains. Their kits are a lot more detailed than the BB stuff and they require painting so they may not be what you are looking for:
http://www.tichytraingroup.com/index.php
Accurail has been mentioned before. If you haven't looked at them you should. They have a great selection and good prices (although not in the $5.00 range)
http://www.accurail.com/accurail/
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
hon30critter Accurail has been mentioned before. If you haven't looked at them you should. They have a great selection and good prices (although not in the $5.00 range)
I'm glad someone remembers that Accurail are still selling shake the box kits. Their product blows away Athearn blue box on virtually every aspect.
riogrande5761 304live: I read that the kits are going for $5 at train shows... ive searched the internet high and low since i read that in this thread looking for $5 kits i cant find them... does anybody have a link to a buyer selling them for 5 bucks? i'd pick up several every 2 weeks when i got paid if they were only 5 bucks still... You read they were selling at train shows for $5.00 for kits. I saw some at the Timonium show for that yes, so in answer to your questions, perhaps the reason you can't find them on the internet for that cheap is because you aren't looking at a train show, instead you are looking on the internet. Key difference there. Go to some train shows and maybe you'll find some. Quite frankly train shows vary from one to another, but if you go to enough, you WILL find some good deals. I saw more good deals at the last Timonium MD show than the previous one for example.
304live: I read that the kits are going for $5 at train shows... ive searched the internet high and low since i read that in this thread looking for $5 kits i cant find them... does anybody have a link to a buyer selling them for 5 bucks? i'd pick up several every 2 weeks when i got paid if they were only 5 bucks still...
If there was a train show in my area every pay period I would go to it and look/buy but unfortunately West Virginia does not have train shows that often.
I assumed that if multiple sellers at train shows had hundreds of kits for sale... one or more of them might have an EBay store or a website with kits available for that price or something close to it.
sorry for asking
Milepost 266.2 I'm glad someone remembers that Accurail are still selling shake the box kits. Their product blows away Athearn blue box on virtually every aspect.
Most of Accurails box cars are fantasy/bogus models. ie, it's very challenging to match any Accurail box car up to a real box car. Many Athears to be fair are similar in that respect but probably you can find more models matching prototype in Athearn than Accurail. Accurail and Athearn bb kits go together pretty much equal. Ok, you like Accurail but they don't blow Athearn bb away in virtually every aspect. Please.
I've said this before, and will again, I try to buy what I can from all different brands, where they match real train cars, that includes Accurail, Athearn, MDC, Walthers, etc. I generally don't toot one brand over another for that reason, because I can find models from among most brands that fit.
riogrande5761 Milepost 266.2: I'm glad someone remembers that Accurail are still selling shake the box kits. Their product blows away Athearn blue box on virtually every aspect. Most of Accurails box cars are fantasy/bogus models. ie, it's very challenging to match any Accurail box car up to a real box car. Many Athears to be fair are similar in that respect but probably you can find more models matching prototype in Athearn than Accurail. Accurail and Athearn bb kits go together pretty much equal. Ok, you like Accurail but they don't blow Athearn bb away in virtually every aspect. Please. I've said this before, and will again, I try to buy what I can from all different brands, where they match real train cars, that includes Accurail, Athearn, MDC, Walthers, etc. I generally don't toot one brand over another for that reason, because I can find models from among most brands that fit.
Milepost 266.2: I'm glad someone remembers that Accurail are still selling shake the box kits. Their product blows away Athearn blue box on virtually every aspect.
I was thinking more in terms of quality of materials, paint schemes, quality control and the assembly experience.