"This Old Roundhouse"
Put a turntable and roundhouse on a layout and stock it with steamers and you've got a sure-fire recipe for drawing a crowd. I think its fair to say that the combination of turntable and roundhouse is arguably the most recognized "railroady" item on any railroad-- trailing behind perhaps only the water tower for "universal public recognition". On a steam layout it is difficult, though not impossible, to imagine how you could get along without one-- a turntable at least. As the railroads modernized and diesels came to rule the roost, the need for turntables diminished considerably and indeed many railroads did away with them entirely, or else converted them to other uses. Today, though the turntable and roundhouse remain a deeply embedded nostalgic element, more and more layout designers are doing away with them and utilizing the space instead for something else.
My Questions for Today Are:
-- What about you and your layout? Do you have a turntable and roundhouse? Or just a turntable? Or is your railroad fully-dieselized and thus has no use for them?
-- If your layout is modern, do you at least show the "last vestiges" of a turntable and/or roundhouse? Perhaps a converted building? Or some old ties in the dirt leading to a covered-in pit?
-- What about engine houses in general (Including servicing facilities) ? How does your railroad service its locomotives?
-- How does your railroad turn its locomotives (if indeed it is actually required) ?
As always, I look forward to your thoughts and comments!
(Feel free to post some photos if you got 'em!)
John
John, as a certified steam locomotive nut, and having decided on a suitable space that could accommodate a tt and rhouse, I felt it was a no-brainer. I was not happy with my first tt kit, the motorized 90'er from Walthers, but once I bought the indexed version of the same, I haven't looked back. For me, those things are as essential as a tender, as a coaling tower and water tower. They aren't strictly necessary anywhere on a layout, although if you have even a rudimentary yard on a layout in the first half of the last century, it would be difficult to explain their absence.
For someone with no real yard, only staging, and with a rail-fan style of terrain and tracks, there really is no point in having those things.
By stating that I have both items, I feel I have answered your subsequent questions. ?
-Crandell
jwhitten My Questions for Today Are: 1-- What about you and your layout? Do you have a turntable and roundhouse? Or just a turntable? Or is your railroad fully-dieselized and thus has no use for them? 2-- If your layout is modern, do you at least show the "last vestiges" of a turntable and/or roundhouse? Perhaps a converted building? Or some old ties in the dirt leading to a covered-in pit? 3-- What about engine houses in general (Including servicing facilities) ? How does your railroad service its locomotives? 4-- How does your railroad turn its locomotives (if indeed it is actually required) ?
1-- What about you and your layout? Do you have a turntable and roundhouse? Or just a turntable? Or is your railroad fully-dieselized and thus has no use for them?
2-- If your layout is modern, do you at least show the "last vestiges" of a turntable and/or roundhouse? Perhaps a converted building? Or some old ties in the dirt leading to a covered-in pit?
3-- What about engine houses in general (Including servicing facilities) ? How does your railroad service its locomotives?
4-- How does your railroad turn its locomotives (if indeed it is actually required) ?
1-- My layout is set in 1962 and is a small line that interchanges with two larger railroads. All road locos are diesel as are the switchers. I have one 2-4-4-2 articulate and one Shay that will work on the upper branch plus be a tourist attraction and provide rail fan trips. I do have a turntable in front of the main RR's engine house, and a wye on the upper level branch.
2-- The engine house on the upper level will be a single stall brick one. The engine house for the main railroad is a modern metal building that replaced the older two stall brick engine house which was destroyed. I will have water stand pipes around and a water tower or two, and maybe a coaling tower on the upper level, but my steam fleet such as it is, switched to oil a long time ago.
3-- Service areas for the diesels will be minimal. The engine house of course for minor repairs, then an old short covered hopper on blocks for sand storage with a sanding tower near the fueling area, and an underground oil tank with a pumping station in a 20 foot container for unloading a tank car. Diesel pump stands will be on a fueling pad.
4-- Locos turn on the turntable and wye if needed. Most of the time turning is not required.
I just changes scales to HO, so I don't have a bunch of locomotives I need to do something with, so I decided to keep the railroads operation small and stay dieselized.
Elmer.
The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.
(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.
The history part of Railroading is why I am in the hobby. I can't go back in time so I bring time forward. Though somewhat reduced in size.
The real estate is reserved on the layout for a Turntable and Roundhouse. I could squeeze in the coaling trestle if I give up some parking. This photo is what I want my service area to be. I am worried about my creative and artistic talents. We will see how it turns out.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
BATMAN The history part of Railroading is why I am in the hobby. I can't go back in time so I bring time forward. Though somewhat reduced in size. The real estate is reserved on the layout for a Turntable and Roundhouse. I could squeeze in the coaling trestle if I give up some parking. This photo is what I want my service area to be. I am worried about my creative and artistic talents. We will see how it turns out. Brent
That *is* a tad bit ambitious. However, if you remove that hexagonal water tower near the roundhouse, I think that might compress it well enough to squeeze it all in...
My Questions for Today Are: 1-- What about you and your layout? Do you have a turntable and roundhouse? Or just a turntable? Or is your railroad fully-dieselized and thus has no use for them?
There is one turntable on the 'far end of the branch' module, and one will be built at the UP end of Tomikawa, my engine change/subdivision station. The latter will be needed to turn JNR steam locos, which leave smokebox first in the direction from which they arrived (UP, aka toward Tokyo.)
On my layout, the steam locos still burn coal and generate ton-kilometers and freight train hours - and some passenger train hours as well.
There will be minimal steam servicing facilities (water, coal, sand, ash pit) for JNR steam and (separate) TTT locomotives at Tomikawa, and a small rectangular engine house/car shop for the TTT. The JNR steam is all operating out of the Tokuhisa engine depot, deep in the netherworld. (There is also a raised tank for diesel fuel used by JNR DMU and diesel-hydraulics.)
At the other end of the Tomikawa Tani Tetsudo, at the major colliery which is also railroad headquarters, there is a larger, better equipped rectangular engine house and full servicing facilities - with one odd feature. Locomotive coal is dispensed from a special chute and bin on one side of the main tipple.
The only locomotives which have to be turned are JNR road steamers. They turn on the turntable at Tomikawa between assignments. Deep in the netherworld, at a place designated Nonomura, steam-powered trains turn on a reversing connection between UP and DOWN mains before being spotted in staging. That connection also turns locomotive-hauled passenger trains powered by diesels and catenary motors, which return to Tomikawa from the direction they left in. (Especially important for the juice jacks - there's no catenary between Tomikawa and Takami.) The diesel-hydraulics are center-cab units and all the juice jacks are double ended, but they have to be kept on the front end, and there are no runaround arrangements in hidden staging.
Interestingly, the TTT turntable at the colliery doesn't turn locomotives. It's used to turn single ended passenger equipment, brake vans and cars that have to be unloaded from a specific side at the supply platform, freight station or company store. The TTT's motley collection of teakettles (and the articulateds) always operate with the smokebox DOWN, to keep water over the crownsheets on the 4% grade. That means they always run UP (downgrade, toward Tomikawa, and, eventually, Tokyo) bunker first.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
Yes, I'm one who agrees that a turntable and roundhouse are an important item on a layout. I've got a dual era layout - Late Transition and pre-WW2. What works for me, since I use short diesels and short steam, mostly, is the faithful Atlas turntable and roundhouse. The turntable is only 9 inches across, about a 65-footer, and the roundhouse stalls aren't much bigger. I decided to make a real project of this, by "pit bashing" the Atlas deck turntable into a "True Pit".
This doesn't take up a lot of real estate on my layout. This "satellite image" taken from a ladder while changing the smoke detector battery shows the whole facility, in a space only about 2x2 feet. Those are GP9s on either side of the roundhouse, for comparison.
I can put any of my diesels in the roundhouse. I have a Mikado that I can fit in the center stall, but I have to run it straight across the bridge because it's a bit too long to turn. My Proto USRA 0-6-0 just barely fits on the bridge. The Hudson won't fit at all.
I've arranged my layout so that I've got 2 reverse loops, so I can turn an engine (or a whole train) going in either direction. I usually run my diesels in consisted pairs, so actually reversing them isn't necessary.
In addition to the roundhouse, I've got "this old house" down by the bay at the end of the layout.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
I hate roundhouses and turntables.
Just kidding.............................
John, you suckered me into participating in this thread because I simply love roundhouses and turntables and cannot get enough of them. I am always anxious to receive my quarterly issue of Classic Trains magazine to find the Birds-Eye View segment to see if an aerial photo of a roundhouse or turntable is included in the current issue.
Like Selector, I started with the Walthers 90' turntable then replaced it when Walthers came out with the 130' indexed turntable. Incidentally, I operate it manually, bypassing the indexing feature, for quicker and more accurate alignment.
Here is a photo of my roundhouse/turntable setup:
[View:http://cs.trains.com/trccs/themes/trc/utility/:550:275]
My fictitious layout is set in 1954 to catch the steam/diesel transition period.
Here is a picture of the adjacent coaling tower:
On the other side of the turntable is the engine servicing area and water tower.
This entire engine servicing facility is huge and eats up a lot of layout space but I couldn't live without it. It is literally in the center of my L-shaped (or, bent dogbone) layout, so I can turn engines either way and send them to the "east" or "west" out of the Chicago area. Not shown in these photos is the 9-track freight yard which is curved before and after the engine servicing facility.
Of all the operational possibilities on my layout, none is more fun than turning or "parking" steam engines on the turntable/roundhouse complex.
Rich
Alton Junction
i have a turntable and roundhouse kit but as yet i have not incorporated them into my layout even though i have space at a couple of locations. just another project i haven't gotten around to doing.
on the old NYC in E St Louis we still had a turntable in the late 60's but about all we ever used it for was to turn inbound piggy back cars so they would face the ramps. a portable ramp was available but the teamsters for some reason didn't like to use it. if the inbound train had a large number of "turned wrongs" we just switched them out and took them around the wye over at relay depot on the TRRA. of course, this maneuver resulted in having the yard engine turned wrong so we used the turntable to get it facing west again. after the PC merger, the turntable was sold to a scrapper and the pit and inspection pits were filled in with rubble from the old Cotton Belt building that was torn down across the river in St Louis Mo. today there is nothing left and it has all been paved over for a casino parking lot.
something like this would work out on a model railroad but i don't model intermodal service so that is out for me.
on the IC in Memphis a roundhouse was sold or leased to a building supply company and i remember going up there with the big hook when they dropped a flat car load of lumber in the pit. at least it was not an engine. (i don't even want to talk about that)
grizlump
My steam-era layout is a point-to-point-to-point (like a "Y", but with one of the "arms" above the other, as a second level.) The base of the "Y" is the south end, with all loco facilities "elsewhere" (beyond staging). Turning for locomotives is on a wye near, but not in, the off-scene staging:
The lower-level arm of the "Y" represents the west end of a branch line, with an interchange to a prototype road. There's a turntable (homemade), coal and sand (modified Walthers), water (Atlas and Tichy), and a locomotive shop/"squarehouse" (modified Vollmer three stall roundhouse). There's also a carshop/paintshop (kitbashed) and an outdoor overhead crane for heavy repairs (scratchbuilt).
Here's the turntable and coaling tower, with sanding facilities added:
...the carshop/paintshop:
The front of the "squarehouse/shop:
The rear of the shop building, along with the overhead crane, and, under the crane runway, an oilhouse (MDC parts and scratchbuilt) on its own siding:
There are also some shacks and shanties grouped around the water tower (on the mainline, but near the entrance to the loco servicing area), which house MoW gangs, B&B crews and equipment, etc.:
The upper level arm of the "Y", not yet built, will represent the northern terminus of the line, with a five stall roundhouse (Korber), 90' turntable (Walthers, manually-operated), 400 ton coaling tower (Tichy), ashpit (scratchbuilt) and water tower (scratchbuilt, with Tichy standpipes). I'll add other locomotive-related structures as space permits.
Here's the Tichy coaling tower:
Most of the other required structures are on-hand, but not yet built.
Wayne
I am planning to have 3 turntables. One at each end and one at the midpoint replicating what the Ma&Pa had. One will have a 180 degree roundhouse, but part of it will have to be painted on the backdrop. One will have a 3 stall square engine house. The third won't have either.
The layout will be point to point and the turntables will be used to turn locomotives.
Enjoy
Paul
One of the focal points of my layout will be the engine terminal. The hub of operations on the Western Maryland was Hagerstown, where a massive 25 stall roundhouse stood from around 1915 until 1999, when a cowardly city council and a dastardly CSX conspired to knock it down, even as an historical preservation group was developing plan to turn it into a "working museum" serving as a regional facility where the growing number of operational locomotives could be stored and serviced.
Because it lasted so long, Hagerstown went from being a major steam shop, to a busy diesel shop, and in its last years, back to a steam shop. Ross Rowland restored C&O 614 there back in the 1980's. Sort of a bitter irony given that the C&O's devil spawn couldn't see fit to restore the old WM shops... But I digress...
On my layout, I'm combining the functions of Hagerstown with Ridgely and Knobmount, the two yards at the other end of the Potomac Valley, near Cumberland. The yard itself is fashioned after Ridgely, which was relatively small, but handled much of the switching and blocking for the Alpha Jets, which called there early in the morning, and again late in the evening. But the engine terminal, ah... it will be more like Hagerstown...
The centerpiece, of course, will be the roundhouse.
In order to get trains running while I developed my final plans, I built this temporary yard and engine house, based loosely on the WM roundhouse at Elkins, West Virginia. This was a 7 stall affair, and was really a practice run for roundhouse construction. At one point, the track plan included an engine terminal for Elkins as well as Hagerstown, but space limitations ended up pushing it off the map. So, I sold it, and started working on "the big one..."
I'm using the old Heljan/Walthers "Union City" roundhouse as the base for the model. Interestingly, back in 1980, when I got my first paycheck ever, I bought one of these kits for use on an overly-ambitious layout planned by an overly ambitious 10th grader...
(I can't even remember where it was supposed to go!)
Anyway, starting with that old roundhouse, or at least the bones of it, and adding several more through barters, ebay and otherwise bottom feeding, I began framing up my 20 stall version of the Hagerstown Roundhouse.
The Heljan/Walthers kit is providing the floor, skeleton, and much of the roof system. The rest is being bashed and scratched to moderately resemble the Hagerstown roundhouse, with brick sidewalls with corrugated metal.. er.. styrene uppers. I made the big windows by having artwork photocopied onto transparency film, then accented with some strip styrene, much as I did with the Elkins roundhouse...
(The vent fans came from a scrapped GP40 shell!)
As a nominally modern layout (late 60's, early 70's) my roundhouse fits right in, again, totally justified by my prototype. With a fleet of around 50 locomotives at my disposal, the roundhouse gives me a relatively compact (about 9 square foot) area to store/display many of them. Each stall holds 2 diesels, with a couple of longer ones to accommodate my SD40's. Modern SD Acey Mac and Cheeses or GE Dash-whatevs might be a little snug, but there's enough lead track before the stall door, that they'll still fit.
The roundhouse also serves an important function in the operations of the layout. Ridgeley (my combined yard/Engine terminal) serves as a division point, so while the thru trains are being switched and blocked, the motive power is being switched out, too. So there's plenty of work for the hostler to make sure there's enough fresh horses available to keep that fast freight rolling.
So, the roundhouse does in fact "service" the locomotives, and make sure they're ready to emerge to pick up the westbounds heading into the jaws of the Allegheny front. As such, it also provides a nice, comfortable place for them to get a bit of rest....
So yeah, A roundhouse is a good thing, and well worth the investment of real estate!
Lee
Route of the Alpha Jets www.wmrywesternlines.net
An ambitious and good-looking plan, Lee, and one that certainly capitalises on the space requirements of N scale.
doctorwayne My steam-era layout is a point-to-point-to-point (like a "Y", but with one of the "arms" above the other, as a second level.) The base of the "Y" is the south end, with all loco facilities "elsewhere" (beyond staging). Turning for locomotives is on a wye near, but not in, the off-scene staging: The lower-level arm of the "Y" represents the west end of a branch line, with an interchange to a prototype road. There's a turntable (homemade), coal and sand (modified Walthers), water (Atlas and Tichy), and a locomotive shop/"squarehouse" (modified Vollmer three stall roundhouse). There's also a carshop/paintshop (kitbashed) and an outdoor overhead crane for heavy repairs (scratchbuilt). Wayne
Wayne,
The more you post pictures of your layout, the more enamored I am with it. In my mind, you have one of the best looking layouts on the forum.
My compliments.
jwhitten -- What about you and your layout? Do you have a turntable and roundhouse? Or just a turntable? Or is your railroad fully-dieselized and thus has no use for them?
As Chief Engineer reporting to overlapping Boards of Directors, I have ensured both the Picture Gorge & Western and the Port Orford & Elk River are fully modernized to and in compliance with the requirements of the Safety Act of 1893. Turntables and single stall engine houses are under construction at Port Orford and Lebanon. Should suitable land be acquired in the future, a wye will be installed at Lebanon and the Sellers turntable moved to Roseburg. Port Orford, being near the Elk River Lumber Co mill, has a gallows turntable. At line ends without turning facilities, we make do. All engineers and locomotives are equipped to run considerable distances in reverse.
Being able to perform thorough maintenance during the wet winter months has justified building the engine houses. Sand also has to be dry stored. Being short lines, most tasks are performed by hand with simple cranes and booms used to assist. Machine shops, black smiths, and small foundries in Charleston and Port Orford provide services to railway and ships alike. Coal is loaded by buckets from a crane; wood is loaded by hand (like the V&T, we keep careful track of our fuel costs, and do not hesitate to switch fuels when it is advantageous). Ashes and cinders are disposed of along the line after bucket loading from the pits into gondolas.
Again, being short lines with only a few locomotives, wipers are assigned to each locomotive each night for routine lubrication, fire banking and light-off, and polishing and wiping. Similarly, all 5 passenger cars are washed weekly, re-varnished annually, and stripped and repainted as required.
Fred Wright
....modeling foggy coastal Oregon, where it's always 1900....
Chief Engineer, Wiper, Bottle Washer, and Jack of all Trades for the:
Picture Gorge & Western Railway (HO)
Port Orford & Elk River Railway & Navigation Co (HOn3)
Thanks for the very kind words, Rich.
I wish I had the room to make a more complete facility like yours, but the one that's planned to be bigger than the one which I've shown won't come close to yours.
In the area of the UP of Michigan I am modeling there were really no major terminals with a roundhouse of turntable - just places that provided basic servicing. This gave me a little license to do whatever I pleased while not actually building a major terminal. So, in response to John's questions:
There is a need to turn locomotives so I have just installed a Walthers 90' turntable but there isn't a roundhouse. There is just a 2 stall enginehouse and an area that will provide basic servicing and storage for the diesels and steamers I am running. These structures and area are pretty time worn and are in need of maintenance themselves but it's in keeping with the 'back woodsy' feel of the area. Anything more than this and would have been too overwhelming.
There's never time to do it right, but always time to do it over.....
doctorwayne Thanks for the very kind words, Rich. I wish I had the room to make a more complete facility like yours, but the one that's planned to be bigger than the one which I've shown won't come close to yours. Wayne
You raise a very good point about the space required to install a fully functioning engine servicing facility, particularly one that includes a turntable and multi-stall roundhouse, nine in my case. I went down and measured this portion of my layout. It requires a 6' x6' space to display the 9-stall roundhouse, 130' turntable, car shop, back shop, coaling tower and water tower. Fortunately, i have the space to accomodate such a facility with my entire layout taking up a 42' x 22' L-shaped space.
Last winter, I built a 4' x 12' "annex" on my layout to accomodate the Walthers Passenger Station and 8-track platform. While not cramped, any smaller space would have been insufficient to fit the necessary structures and track.
Perhaps John should consider this topic, the space required to display and operate special layout features such as engine servicing facilities, urban passenger stations, etc., as the theme of one of his Philosophy Friday threads.
Yes I model the steam/transition era and have a turntable, roundhouse and engine facilities. It is a significant part of the operational plan.
If it was not part of my operational plan, I would not have it.
It includes a 130' turntable and 12 stall roundhouse.
Sheldon
John,A interesting topic.
Here's my thoughts.
---------------------------
What about you and your layout? Do you have a turntable and roundhouse? Or just a turntable? Or is your railroad fully-dieselized and thus has no use for them?
--------------------------
I have never used a roundhouse or turntable on any of my few loop layouts simply because I see them as unnecessary space eaters with diesels.
---------------------
What about engine houses in general (Including servicing facilities) ? How does your railroad service its locomotives?
------------------
On my past loop layouts I simply used a 2 stall engine house with a servicing track..
There is one exception.I had a ISL that was switched by the Kinniconick Creek Industrial RR which was owned by the industries it served.Its 44 tonner was fueled by a local fuel dealer.
How does your railroad turn its locomotives (if indeed it is actually required) ?
----------------
The C&HV operates their locomotives in either direction simply because 98% of its trains is locals.For the few road trains we place our locomotives back to back.
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My thoughts..
Some where in the annuals of model railroading it surely must be written that layouts needs turntables and round houses.
However,this isn't always the case.Some small railroads and branch line operations lack turning faculties especially in the later years.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
But, of course, I have a roundhouse and a turntable on the Seneca Lake, Ontario, and Western!!! Heavens, back in 1925, there is no way you could function without all the "proper" facilities.
Here is a shot looking through the coal tower down at the turntable and the roundhouse.
An overview of the area (part of the required photos for the NMRA Scenery Certificate):
And a couple of the interior of the Roundhouse.
73
Ray Seneca Lake, Ontario, and Western R.R. (S.L.O.&W.) in HO
We'll get there sooner or later!
Ray,I just gotta comment..
WOW!
i like that shot looking through the coal tower..
Very nice, Ray. The interior of the roundhouse is very realistic.
selector Very nice, Ray. The interior of the roundhouse is very realistic. -Crandell
I most emphatically must say "Ditto ditto" !!!
Well done. I especially like the view of the hill in the background through the coaling tower.
jwhitten selector: Very nice, Ray. The interior of the roundhouse is very realistic. -Crandell I most emphatically must say "Ditto ditto" !!! Well done. I especially like the view of the hill in the background through the coaling tower. John
selector: Very nice, Ray. The interior of the roundhouse is very realistic. -Crandell
I don't know guys... is there any proof that these are really shots of a model? great work all around!
-Dan
Builder of Bowser steam! Railimages Site
Eventually the Citrus Belt of 1920 will have two turntables, nothing fancy, just a couple 90 foot armstrong types. I have no need for a enginehouse or support structures beyond a water tank and standpipe. Oil will be stored in obsolete tank cars on a stub track off the tt and pumped to the tenders as required.
Dave
Thank you folks! I had a lot of fun putting that part of the layout together over the past several years.
Oh, BTW if you have a turntable and Roundhouse, back in the days of staem, you also had to at least have a water standpipe, ash pit, and loco cleanout tools....
Got mine:
Since this photo was taken, I've finished scenery around it. No roundhouse yet, but I intend to make a 2-stall roundhouse eventually.
I scratch built the pit and the bridge is a craftsman kit. I use 4 mm sealed bearings for the wheels that ride on the ring rail (that worked out really well) and it is powered via a a hand crank an a 100:1 gearbox (indexing is by eyeball). The man on the deck is my indicator for which way to throw the polarity switch.
Phil, I'm not a rocket scientist; they are my students.
Being that I'm modeling the PC the short answer is no I have no tt or rh on my layout plans. Diesels were the standard by then and passenger trains were limited. But they are some of those details that almost have to be included on a layout so I'm going to cheat a bit.
At the southern end of the Powhattan Secondary there must have been at least a tt and possibly a small roundhouse or locos would have needed to run backwards for 20 plus miles. If any passenger trains ran that far the consist would have been backwards as well. Topographic maps show that a wye would have been impratical but runaround moves were possible.
So while I'm modeling the early 70's and have no functional need for a tt, I'll add the remnants of one and maybe run a steam excursion to it to have a reason for it's existance.
If I backdate to the 40's I'd need a much bigger basement, maps show at least 6 tt in the greater Cleveland area alone.
Modeling the Cleveland and Pittsburgh during the PennCentral era starting on the Cleveland lakefront and ending in Mingo junction
Hello I have a roundhouse and turn table. My layout is freelanced so I run the service area like a truck stop. Any loco can stop and get what it needs. One thing I did wrong was I had no plan so thing's are not where they should be here are some pic's
Have a nice day Frank