wm3798 If you think a yard is a waste of space, you might consider working with slot cars.
If you think a yard is a waste of space, you might consider working with slot cars.
I've operated on yardless layouts as well as layouts where the yards could just as well have been staging as far as I was concerned, and immensely enjoyed the experiences. I enjoy operating way/local freight trains switching industries along the right-of-way. Make me a yardmaster and I'm an unhappy child. A layout without a yard isn't necessarily operating trains in an endless circle.
Mark
IRONROOSTERThe layout will include two yards. Since I have a basement to work with, I can model the Maryland and Pennsylvania Railroad running point to point with a yard and interchanges at both ends. ... Even though it is a short line they are too sprawled out to be modeled as is, some compression is needed.EnjoyPaul
The layout will include two yards. Since I have a basement to work with, I can model the Maryland and Pennsylvania Railroad running point to point with a yard and interchanges at both ends.
Enjoy
Paul
Heh... Paul, if you're modeling the M&P, you need to practice selective Decompression... How else could you do homage to a line that took 77 miles to connect cities that are 44 miles apart!
As for yards, I can't imagine building a layout without one. My layout is under reconstruction, but it will once again house a good sized double ended yard with a full engine terminal. As much as I enjoy the "railfanning" aspect of a layout, there has to be a place to break down the road freights, sort out the locals, and consolidate the outbound cars. That, to me anyway, is what railroading is all about.
I remember the first time I included a small three track yard in a layout, I had more fun running the switcher back and forth shuffling cars than I did "running trains" around the loop. Later, I discovered that by having my yard off to the side, and tying it to the loopty loop with a wye track, I could run the train out in either direction, and return to the yard without a reversing move.
This in and of itself made the layout more fun to operate, and added to the number of trains I could run, even though the layout was very small, and featured a single track main line with one passing siding.
And the yard doesn't have to be terribly complex, as several posters have illustrated here. Mine (in N scale, mind you) was 12" wide and about 5' long.
Basically, it was a long siding that served as the Arrival/Departure tracks, and a 5 track ladder, all stub end tracks. The tracks in the foreground were the make shift engine terminal. I used the longer tracks to stage inbound and out bound trains, and the shorter tracks to sort cars to build locals. I eventually added a runaround track parallel to the yard ladder to add some flexibility. Really, this is all you need to have an enjoyable yard to operate.
Later evolutions have been larger, with more tracks and larger support facilities, but basically the same design.
This last plan is now being reworked to allow for more switching from the east end, and much larger engine terminal. This makes for a more complex plant at the west end of the yard, shown here:
Basically, my operating schematic has trains originate in staging at the east or west end of the layout. Let's follow a train from the east end...
East staging is located below the main part of the layout, and consists of four long "balloon" tracks. This means that eastbound trains that enter staging turn themselves around to become westbound trains without me having to move engines or manipulate any of the cars. The trains on the left are all ready to head west onto the layout. They'll do this by going around a one-turn loop that climbs up to a tunnel portal in the fascia, then crossing a bridge over the aisle to reach North Junction at the east end of the yard.
When the train arrives in the yard, a couple of things happen. My yard is a division point, and the terrain going west requires different power, so engines and crews are swapped. There will also be a cut of cars in each train that needs to be dropped at the yard, as well as blocks of cars that need to be picked up. So while the engine terminal crew is moving the new horses into place, the yard switcher is working the consist to make sure the traffic is moving all in the right direction.
Once re-assembled, the train will continue west. Now the fun begins... The yard switcher takes the cars just dropped, and sorts them to build trains going to several other destinations. (I have a live junction on the layout, so some cars will go down a branch line to be switched at industries there, while others may be sent to other interchanges to the east or west. The Western Maryland was shaped somewhat like an X, so cars from the southeast could end up going in any of three directions, all represented by staging).
While this is going on, another train will be making its way east...
It too will have set outs and pick ups to make, as well as arrangements for fresh power and even a caboose swap. During a typical operating session, we can run 20 to 30 trains through the yard, including a bunch of through freights, a few locals, a couple of transfer turns to off-layout locations, and of course, the never ending flow of coal.
Without a yard, the layout would still be fun to watch, but with it, every train ends up being a little different from the last, the traffic generated by the on-line industries has the feeling that it's actually going somewhere, and the yard and engine terminal are anything but a waste of space.
But just as critical are the staging yards. I have two long balloon staging yards representing multiple destinations. The east yard represents Baltimore, York, Gettysburg, Hanover, Westminster and Union Bridge, as well as the important Lurgan Sub and the connection to the Reading, which carried the Alpha Jet trains to the northeast. The west yard represents the WM's several connections at Connellsville, PA. Here, the high priority trains linked up with the N&W's former Pittsburgh and West Virginia, second tier trains met the P&LE, and coal and ore trains connected to the PRR or B&O.
If you think of the yard as the heart of the railroad, and the cars as the blood being pumped, you have a basic understanding of how the yard works. Just as your heart can't possibly store all the blood in your body, your yard can be small but still handle a lot of traffic.
One poster stated that he wasn't interested in modeling a yard because he wouldn't be able to replicate the real thing in terms of size or scope. That's foolish. A model railroad yard is best if it is designed to handle the traffic of the layout, not if it replicates a real yard foot for foot. It's more important for your yard to work efficiently based on the traffic you have than it is to be an accurate model. You should try to include prototypical elements that are suited to your operation, but there's no need to include more than you need. I think Grampy's Trains illustrated that perfectly with his substantially abbreviated Enola Yard. I mean, we have to compress just about everything else on our railroads, why should we expect to build a yard to scale, then?
I think my favorite part of having a functioning yard, though, is between ops sessions. This is when I get a chance to run the yard myself, checking the car cards and waybills, and shuffling the cars to build the trains that we'll run during the next session.
I really enjoy pulling out a cut of cars, and switching them into the class tracks and getting them ready to run to their next destination. It's the one job on the railroad that is always changing.
Lee
Route of the Alpha Jets www.wmrywesternlines.net
dehusman A yard can have almost constant activity 24 hours a day.
A yard can have almost constant activity 24 hours a day.
When do you sleep?
Dave-the-Train I do not like [modelled] yards:- Too much track required, Too much ballast required. Too much pointwork (mostly doing nothing). Too much stock standing idle - and what can you see of most of it? = the roofs. Too much wiring (even with DCC). Too much space to collect dust. WAY Too much maintenance... AND FAR TOO LITTLE GOING ON! ( Oops! Sorry I yelled ) I choose hotspots.
I do not like [modelled] yards:- Too much track required, Too much ballast required. Too much pointwork (mostly doing nothing). Too much stock standing idle - and what can you see of most of it? = the roofs. Too much wiring (even with DCC). Too much space to collect dust. WAY Too much maintenance...
AND FAR TOO LITTLE GOING ON! ( Oops! Sorry I yelled )
I choose hotspots.
Au contraire. Yards ARE the hot spots.
An industry is switched maybe once a day.
A mainline location on a reasonable main line might have a dozen trains a day, that's one train every two hours or more for about 5-10 minutes, headlight to marker light.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
jwhittenFinally if DoctorWayne or Cuyama or SteinJr or anybody else that's expressed an opinion about yards here at some point or other would like to add to, expand on, or otherwise provide more information about their yards, or their philosophy about yards, that would be great.
All these long answers and, just for a change, I have a very short one (it is about my philosophy about yards).
Trains stored "out of sight" (that is non modelled area) on very simple/robust track with no ballast or other stuff...
Trains in scenery are rolling... maybe at speed... often at a crawl easing up to a signal / waiting for the road. This is much more "Real Railway" than constantly drilling tracks.
What's to see in a yard? If it's so good how come trains mag has a "hotspots" page and not a "yards" page?
I'm biased... but just a different perspective on the "philosophy" aspect of the OP.
jwhittenBut, with respect to your specific question-- "If you have a single track and 0-5-0 switch does that not constitue a yard functionally?" I suppose it does conceptually, but I don't think anybody here has suggested that using the 0-5-0 is a suitable alternative-- I certainly wouldn't want that as my only option.
But, with respect to your specific question-- "If you have a single track and 0-5-0 switch does that not constitue a yard functionally?" I suppose it does conceptually, but I don't think anybody here has suggested that using the 0-5-0 is a suitable alternative-- I certainly wouldn't want that as my only option.
Actually, John, for me it is the suitable alternative.
With all of my staging tracks being dead-ended, the trains generally need to be physically removed from the layout in order to free up the locomotives (there are no "escape" tracks). Of course, some cars in these trains will be destined for on-line industries, either in the town adjacent to that particular staging yard, or elsewhere on the layout. For these, the yard will be switched with a locomotive, with the cars distributed appropriately. All others, either empty home road cars or empties or loads destined for "elsewhere" are "switched" off the layout and back in their respective boxes under the layout, using my trusty 0-5-0. This ensures that the same cars aren't seen continuously and that an interesting cross-section of cars from anywhere in North America is available to maintain the sense of connection to the outside world. Not including passenger and MoW equipment, I have about 150 "home road" freight cars in service, and about 190 "foreign" cars - far too many to be on the layout at one time.
I plan on running trains of about 10 to 12 cars, and, as most trains do switching duties en route, a ten car train starting out at the south end of the layout could arrive (perhaps several operating sessions later) at the north end with an entirely different ten cars. There's also the possibility that it could roll into the northern town with only its caboose, or with two dozen cars behind the tender. I'm hoping for well-organised operations, but not ones that are too predictable.
While most of my freight cars have added details, reasonably careful handling (I'm the builder and repair guy, as well as the operator, so this is my responsibility) should ensure limited problems. I also run mostly "live" loads in open cars, so these will need to be added or removed at appropriate places - my thought is to do this either before or after an operating session, but in all cases, it's a "hands on" operation. Unless it's for repair or maintenance, locomotives will not be handled.
Wayne
johncolleyJohn, Since we are phiosophising, I have questions...how do you make up/ breakdown trains? If you have a single track and 0-5-0 switch does that not constitue a yard functionally? I prefer to have several trains in the stages mentioned above so I have an 8 track live staging yard that is double ended with compound ladders, and a 30" long engine escape track at the wall end that will take a 4 unit FT road engine., I do all yard moves with switchers and cycle my caboose track, avoiding 0-5-0 handling of equipment as much as possible. That is just my preference, but I feel it is worthy of inclusion in this thought provoking discussion. Another John
I'm not sure if you're asking me specifically or just tossing the question out there generally, but I'll answer anyway...
With respect to the original post, the gist was whether to have a modeled yard or else save the space and do something else with it. Several people also chipped-in to give examples of how trains could be made-up and broken down by the road engine as it picks up and sets out along its run. Also several people indicated that they used a siding track or two for temporary holding or interchange functions in lieu of a formal yard. And the original post assumed there were (or could be) yards in offline staging, although I reckon I really didn't go into that aspect much. How to handle the 'offline' staging aspect is a slightly different topic-- but you're welcome to bring it up and address it in this thread. I know I would be interested in hearing people's views on that also.
But, with respect to your specific question-- "If you have a single track and 0-5-0 switch does that not constitue a yard functionally?" I suppose it does conceptually, but I don't think anybody here has suggested that using the 0-5-0 is a suitable alternative-- I certainly wouldn't want that as my only option. On my temporary layout (which, by the way-- today is its *LAST* day!!!) I have a four-track stub-ended yard, the longest track about six feet, with a lead about four feet. I also have three sidings just outside the yard (in different directions) that can be used as run-around tracks as needed. But I have no way to turn engines. On my permanent layout there will be several turntables at strategic points for turning locomotives. I have been debating (with myself) whether or not to include additional servicing facilities at some point along the line. I have been leaning toward but not 100% decided having "Everett PA" be the "Headquarters" for my railroad, and then adding service facilities there. I am back and forth on the issue because I don't feel the need to do servicing there since I have large cities on both ends of the line which already house large facilities for servicing trains, and are owned by my railroad's "owner", the PRR. (Enola at Harrisburg, and Conway at Pittsburgh. and of course several smaller yards in the same general area). So I probably don't technically need a yard on my layout. The question, for me, really is-- do I *want* a yard on my layout? I think probably the answer is somewhat "yes", but it will probably take the form of several smaller interchange yards I think.
John
I have two yards on my layout; one is an "industrial yard" comprised of two stub-ended tracks used to hold freight cars waiting to be switched into the auto plant. The local switcher also uses it when putting together set-outs for freights to pick up. The other has not been built yet. It will be a small interchange yard with some engine servicing facilities located at the other end of the layout. Two other railroads (from staging) interchange with my railroad here. The yard is used to sort these arriving cars for either the switching districts or as transfer runs to other interchanges. The vision I have is of a small yard of about 5 stub tracks, a caboose track, and some engine facilities. There will be some industries located nearby for the yard to switch out between arriving transfers as well. I enjoy running a yard, and as others have pointed out, yards are very "railroady." Plus it offers a different type of operation from running a passenger or through freight, and even a local freight. Just another fun aspect of operating!
Chuck
Modeling the Motor City
Having just moved, I'm in the planning stages for the next layout.
If I had less room either one or both would be eliminated. One of the advantages of modeling a short line is that everything tends to be a smaller version of the class 1 lines. In this case the yards are 5 and 7 tracks. And while I may not be able to have quite that many tracks I'll only need to eliminate one or two.
What's harder than the yard, is including a representation of the terminal facilities at each end, of which the yard is only one element. Even though it is a short line they are too sprawled out to be modeled as is, some compression is needed.
Since I appear to be already involved in this discussion, I'll offer some additional info on both the layout and my operational plan.
First, my layout is intended to be operated solo, although I may eventually make provisions for a second operator. About one third of the layout will be double-decked, but none of that except the long grade up to that higher level is yet in place. This makes it difficult to envision all of the operations needed, and I'm sure that there'll be some "adjustments" made when that part of the trackage is in service. I don't have a track plan (and didn't when the layout was built either) but it's essentially a single track, point-to-point-to-point with passing sidings at each town. Envision it as the letter "Y", with one of its "arms" above the other, giving three end points. The base of the "Y" runs from Dunnville to South Cayuga, then one "arm" runs uphill, around the peninsula and enters the second level above Elfrida. The other "arm" of the "Y" runs downhill out of South Cayuga, ducks into a short tunnel, and emerges in Elfrida, on the lower level of the layout. The area shown in grey will be double-decked. Here's a sketch of the layout room:
The area shown as staging will be on four different levels, three of which are shown here:
The lowest, a single track, is a staging/interchange with a prototype road. There should be one train per day each way, plus a short passenger train - this could also be combined as a mixed train - power would be from either that road or from my own freelanced road. Cars would be dropped off/picked up on the layout, using the passing sidings to sort and switch cars in the first on-layout town encountered, immediately across the aisle The whole layout is seen as a secondary line in dark (unsignalled) territory, with short trains and low speeds. The locomotive, now turned and with a new train, would return to the staging track. Any cars dropped off would be switched into trains heading elsewhere on the layout or to one of the other staging areas. (I'm planning for car cards and waybills to give each car a purpose and destination.)
The other track coming off that turnout in the foreground and disappearing into the shadows is for a run-through option for the amusement of visitors only - it isn't involved at all with regular operations.
The next highest staging is two tracks which serve as "unmodelled industries" - the three reefers sitting just to the right of the support post show the location. Access is from the industrial district of the first town (Dunnville) on the visible side of the layout - my plan is to have as many industries as I wish represented by these tracks - probably not in any set order, so cars will need to be shuffled only when an industry is ready to ship a car. This will be determined by the car cards/waybills system. By limiting the number of cards for each industry, I should be able to include a disproportionate number of industries without clogging the tracks - we'll see.
Above this is the main staging yard for the south end of the layout. Cars arrive here from "elsewhere" (the shelves below the layout) and ones arriving here in trains and destined for "elsewhere" go back in their boxes on the shelves. There are five tracks here, all about 10' long, which is about right for anticipated train lengths. These funnel into two tracks, which enter the layout by passing through the backdrop and emerge, also in Dunnville) on a slightly higher elevation the than the two industry tracks mentioned previously. Here's the view from the layout side:
Cars which arrive at staging from other parts of the layout and are not destined for "elsewhere" will be ones (most likely) destined for Dunnville - either the modelled part or one of those two "industry" tracks. These cars will be switched in staging and delivered as required.
The line from Dunnville to South Cayuga, and then upgrade around the peninsula to the upper level is a north/south line, while the line splitting off at South Cayuga and dropping downgrade is considered to be an east/west line. South Cayuga is a bottleneck which would paralyse a multi-operator version of this layout, but more on that later.
Trains, each in their turn, will follow their route, switching industries along the way and picking up or dropping off cars as required. The passing sidings will afford run-around possibilities for facing-point moves. This should make for leisurely-paced operations, but still afford plenty of switching (with manual turnouts and uncoupling). There's be locomotive turning facilities at both the northern and western ends of the modelled lines (turntables) and a wye at the southern end (Dunnville). I suppose the turntables with their associated loco servicing facilities could be considered as yards, but not for freight cars unless they're O.C.S. (on company service). The wye at Dunnville will be used to turn locos arriving at south staging, but only after their trains have been removed from the layout. Once turned and returned to staging, a new train will be manually added from the storage shelves.
Earlier, I mentioned South Cayuga as a bottleneck. This is due to the fact that the north/south line meets here with the east/west line. South Cayuga is difficult to photograph in a panoramic view, but the shot below perhaps explains the situation better. Part of the town is seen at left, with two bridges visible at the far end of the aisle. The lower one is the east/west line (east to the left, west to the right and downhill), while the upper bridge is the north/south route (south to the left, north uphill and to the right - the track climbs towards the second level on the peninsula approaching the viewer at right).
Trains moving north or south or ones moving north, then west, or east, then south will drop or pick-up cars at South Cayuga and then proceed on their way. However, three times a week a coal train is schedule to run from the western interchange (that lowest-level single track in staging) to the northern end of the line (the as-yet-unbuilt upper staging yard). This means that this eastbound train, upon arrival in South Cayuga, becomes southbound. However, with its final destination at the northern end of the layout, the entire train needs to be turned. Instead of actually turning the train, my plan is to run the locos (a minimum of two on this heavy train) light to the wye at Dunnville (much too close on the layout, but at least a couple of miles away in my imagination ) turn them and then return to their train where they'd need to move the caboose to the opposite end of the train. Then, after coupling onto the other end of the train (which was formerly the rear), they could proceed northward. Another possibility is a complete engine and caboose swap, with the original power cutting off, running to the Dunnville wye to be turned, then proceeding "light" to staging to await the next outbound train. The new power, waiting "in the hole" when the train arrived, would then couple on and take the train to north-end staging. The return movement of empties could be handled similarly.
As you can see, lots of switching opportunities with no formal yard. Not counting the possibilities of those two "industrial" tracks under the southern staging area, there are nine modelled industries in Dunnville, at least another seven in South Cayuga, nine more in Elfrida and seven in Lowbanks/Port Maitland. There are two busy towns planned for the second level of the layout, with another perhaps one or two "out-in-the-sticks" industries (quarry and rendering plant), not to mention another interchange (independent of that represented by the north end staging yard) and passenger and express services for the entire railroad. While this type of operation isn't for everyone, it affords me the opportunity to model a diverse industrial base and the transportation system to service it. If I had instead opted for visible yards, the five towns on the current layout would likely become only two or three, and most of the yard switching would be merely blocking trains for delivery to the next yard.
John, another interesting topic. I wanted to model a small yard on my layout. It would take an airplane hanger to model Enola, my modest 7 track, double ended yard occupies about 18 ft of space, including a small diesel service area. I think it adds to the fun and provides more operating opportunities. DJ.
Overall view.
Service area.
Yard shots.
Unless we are modeling some small standalone line that doesn't interchange with any other road in any form, we all are just modeling a portion of the greater rairload system. We all have to draaw the boundaryies someplace. Some people draw the boundaries so they don't include the yards, some draw the boundaries to not inculde the yards. It all just boils down to what activities you prefer.
I will have more or less 5 yards on my layout. A main switching yard at Wilmington (5 tracks), small switching yards at Coatesville and Birdsboro (3 tracks each), a live staging yard and several interchange tracks which could be considered a defacto yard.
Since one of the things I wanted was the operators to experience the entire "life cycle" of their train, that required yards. My previous layout used typical staging yards as the start and finish of a train, you started in a staging yard with the power on the train and you ended in a staging yard. That to me just didn't see as "railroady" as I wanted. So the current layout will have the crew get their power take it to the yard, get their train, run across the railroad, do work, terminate their train in another yard, turn the power, get their train to go back, run across the railroad, do their work, yard their train, take their engine back to the roundhouse.
You can't do that without yards.
On my (under construction) layout, the five track, stub end yard is the crossroads of the north-south and east-west routes, so its needed to receive, sort and send out cars between the four compass points. It also contains the engine terminal and car shops.
The east-west route is: return loop staging - town - town - yard - town - town - (same) return loop staging.
The north-south route is: loop staging - (same) yard - (same) loop staging...not much track, but it makes a big operational difference.
However... if I didn't have the north-south route... I'd still have the yard!
Jim
I had been wrestling with this question as big yards just don't really exist in the area I model. But in the grand scheme of things, I do have a need to turn locos otherwise I can't really service all the areas on the railroad. In the process of this I was able to locate some old USGS maps which showed the old railroad grades and I did find a very small yard in one town as well as some interchanges in other areas. There also appeared to be a facilty where engines were serviced which included an old turntable so I have decided to model this facility, include 2-4 storage tracks for rolling stock and at least two of the interchanges.
I guess I fall into the category of staying away from the 'big yard.' They do take up a ton of real estate and for my budget can be very expensive. What I am planning is after much thought, many diagrams, a little research and should be in keeping with the area.
There's never time to do it right, but always time to do it over.....
When I was a child, I modeled as a child. But now that I'm a man, I put away childish things.
Fortunately, I put them away, and didn't throw them away. So, I still have the trains of my youth. And, I still have the yard of my youth. I never really thought about it before, but it's basically the same yard that I had 50 years ago. It's 6 stub-ended tracks, arranged in two sets of 3, fed with 3-way turnouts to save space.
I've cheated a bit, using the outer tracks to also serve industries, like the packing plant and ice house. But it's a compact yard, and generally more full than it should be. So far, I'm not doing operations, but reducing the number of cars "living" in the yard will probably be necessary.
Phase 2 brings with it a 4-track double ended yard. Originally, it was to be staging, but a comment from a member here made me consider the possibility, at least, that I could use it as a working yard as well. So, I'll have to see how things work out. Right now, though, my plan would be to run trains out of staging, interact with the yard, and bring a different train back to staging. Then, another local train would go from the yard to industries.
The as-yet-unbuilt car float terminal will be yard-like as well. I've included a couple of tracks so that I can actually "switch" the car float - loading and unloading strings of cars.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
I too enschew yards in favor of a series of passing sidings that double as the interchange to/from stagging. I have more need for open space to faithfully model my main industry, citrus and its infastructure although i'm only modeling 3 specific locations on a 29 mile branchline it produces a diverse traffic base. If sorting or re-blocking is required it can easily be accomplished by requesting some track time from the dispatcher to occupy the main, just as my prototype had to do.
Dave
Long term I'm planning to have 2 yards on my HO "grand plan" but this is going to be an operational decision not meerly decorative. Long drags of coal and ore that end up being cut down and delivered to industries and interchanges and the reverse are just not practical on the main.
Also since I'll be modeling 6-8 towns and at least 4 functioning interchanges over a 300ft main line, it becomes obvious that there needs to be some collection point for incoming and outgoing cars.
As for space considerations, I'm trying to plan for yard tracks 12-16 foot long and 8-10 tracks per yard, not counting drill rip etc. Actual sizes may vary and some refinements are expected as operations ramp up. I'll also need to on layout yards to help crutch the smallish staging yards though hoping for 2 similar sized yards. May have to look into multidecking the staging.
However, DrWayne does have a good point and his desire to have lots of mainline run and more industrial switching is fine as long as there is a "yard" modeled or not.
Modeling the Cleveland and Pittsburgh during the PennCentral era starting on the Cleveland lakefront and ending in Mingo junction
My master plan calls for seven JNR yards - but six of them are in the Netherworld. The one which will be visible will have only those tracks and that track capacity needed to handle the tasks required - comparatively few, and comparatively short.
So, what will happen there?
There are spurs at the freight house (used by three railways) and transload tracks for logs, but I don't count them as yard tracks. Likewise, the TTT has some yard tracks and a small engine terminal, but those are off-limits to JNR locomotives. As for thoroughfares - three through platform tracks, an engine escape track and a freight arrival-departure track are available, but cannot be blocked by standing cuts of rolling stock.
If you think that that sounds like a lot of track, you should see the prototype!
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
My Santa Fe in Oklahoma circa 1989 is first of all a point to point operation, no contineous loops at all. So that means yards, also the major industrial base for my railroad is the grain business coming in for storage, leaving with loaded grain for the gulf coast, etc. Within the confines of the Enid OK 10th st yard are 8 fairly large terminal grain elevators and one flour mill. The yard itself is half the number of the prototype, so trains arrive, trains depart, and cars are switched to and from the elevators plus the old Champlin refinery.
The Oklahoma City yards contain from south to north, the staging yard which is partly visible, coming into Flynn yard, the major yard (I use a mole hole operation here), more elevators and industry, then on to downtown OKC and north to Edmond and Britton OK, suburbs with industry and grain, and on to Guthrie OK and into staging (Arkansas City). At Guthrie, the Enid district takes off and heads onto the helix and down to middle deck, passing 5 small towns with grain elevators, and some LPG and chemical, join the BN line from Tulsa (staging) and parallel each other into Enid where the BN, ATSF, and UP (ex CRIP) meet and greet and switch and use staging yards (except for ATSF). Then on down a long hidden grade to the bottom deck with Cherokee OK, and on into Kiowa Ks, these are modeled, and then to staging at Waynoka, a visible and sceniced staging yard (no train switching and no industries). The BN line continues hidden to Avard OK and then to Waynoka.
Now that is a bunch of yards and switching opportunities. Would I do it over if I was just starting? Who knows. The one thing I am sure of is that in the 25 year lifespan of the layout I have never felt left down or an urge to tear out and rebuild. We can run more road trains (grain trains), there is plenty of industrial switching, and the yards at Oklahoma City and Enid are fairly large and provide a variety of switching opportunities.
I do keep a one man op session going for a span of two - three weeks (depends on amount of free time) operating a 24 hour cycle. Some evenings, 2-3 hours, other times 30 minutes to an hour with time off for good behavior and taking my wife out. This is the beauty of being older and retired with no kids around, they all live other places now. Also another modeler, who has a large UP layout, often comes down for the evening and joins in.
So yards are important to me, both the visible and the hidden, but the overall running and operation never gets dull. Works for me.
Bob
As per other recent threads on similar topics:
I have one fairly large visable yard - and then lots of thru staging.
The layout theme is a division point city - major railroad features are generally only modeled once on the layout:
One yard (fairly large, 10 tracks, aprox 20' long, double ended), one large passenger terminal (with a small coach yard), one engine terminal (situated to serve both the freight and passenger operations of the division point), one piggyback terminal, one auto assembly plant, one belt line with numerious industries, etc.
The only exceptions to the "one of each" rule are commuter/rural passenger stations and junctions/interchanges - these are modeled several times, often right at the point where trains enter and leave the "stage".
The yard is key to the operational scheme chosen, it is the feeder to the belt line which has 90% of the industries - very few industries are along the mainline. This the follows the prototype practice in most major east coast cities.
Sheldon
But, the club layout for my club does have a small 3 track yard that exists and I think it is capable of simulating a small yard such as PNWR's yard in Tigard Or. Its not strictly speaking large enough, but it is big enough to work in a similar manner. That layout will also have a division point yard with a roundhouse. It will be far too small, but I'm hoping to make it appear to be just a section of a larger yard. As this layout is as much for display to the public as operation.
John,Good question that should lead to a very interesting discussion.
So,Here's my thoughts based on several things.
1.Do you have a yard on your layout?
I would not even think about building a layout without a working yard this includes my ISLs.
2.Do you have a yard that "doubles" as two yards-- i.e., pretends to be both ends of the run?
On my few loop layouts the yard acted as the start and end points of a branch line.This way I could run "point to point" on a loop layout.
3.What type of yard is it? How does it operate?
Like the prototype I needed a area where my branch line crew could make up its train and leave East and Westbound cuts for "through" trains to pick up and to hold any industry overflow cars till they are needed..Its main function was to give the branch line crew a place to do their work.
On my past ISLs a 2-3 track yard is used for holding overflow cars and home empties and a place to spot the pickups out of the way so the crew can have headroom to work.
Yards is one of those necessary evils that is surely needed for realistic operation-unless of course your local switches out the same cars.I realize one can switch out cars in a fiddle yard using the 0-5-0 switcher or cassette but,what fun is that? I use the 0-5-0 switcher on my ISLs to set the train up at the beginning of the "work" day but,IMHO that's no fun at all.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
My HO layout has a 'small' yard that has 3 tracks(double-ended), and a small engine terminal. This is a 'wide' spot on my railroad and is home base for a couple of locals that work other mainline towns and a branch line. There is a 'yard' job that switches the Swift plant and a few local industries, but mainline trains set out/pickup on their own, and the local engines build their own trains as part of their normal work. I like the idea of the 'feature' jobs on my layout starting from a spot and completing their work when they get 'home' at the same place. The through trains use a 4 track 'staging' area that can eat complete trains. Since I have put 'scenery' in the yard area, nothing winds up laid there, and most of the time the tracks are less than 1/2 full - a very manageable yard for the crews to work out of.
Many modelers build a big yard and then fill it with all of their freight cars(or will fill it up as they acquire them). These yards are totally useless for 'operation', and most never get finished from my observations. They seem to be the focal point of the initial construction, and then the project just dies as the builder comes to grips with the size of the project he has tackled. Now, there is nothing 'wrong' with building a division point yard with a big roundhouse if you just want to use it to hold your ;trains' and you are really not interested in scale operation.
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
I have a yard on my layout because it adds so much to interest and operating potential. I also enjoyed researching how a real yard works..i..e. lead tracks...ladder tracks...etc which has lead me to building my own.
I eschew yards. They take a lot of space, they can be expensive (lots of turnouts and switch machines), and most important, I don't enjoy "yarding."
This plan has no yard unless a simple run-around track qualifies. Trains originate and terminate from/in staging. Except for one single and one double-ended passing siding as well as one run-around track, everything is main track or industrial and service trackage.
The primary purpose of the turntable at the mainline town of Benton Station is to turn around branchline locomotives between operating sessions. Branchline trains end up in the wrong direction at Lone Pine staging as this is where they begin and end their trips. Secondary reason is to display some of my locomotives and to simulate helper locomotive operations. It can also serve Lone-Pine/Benton-Station/Lone-Pine local freight turns.
"The Railroad Yard"
I've been thinking about something that "doctorwayne" said in another post recently about yards on his layout, or rather the lack thereof, that piqued my interest:
doctorwayneOther than staging, I deliberately included no freight or coach yards on my layout. They use up too much room and aren't really necessary for my operating scheme. Wayne
Other than staging, I deliberately included no freight or coach yards on my layout. They use up too much room and aren't really necessary for my operating scheme.
One of the reasons why I think this is an interesting comment (and approach) is that Wayne's layout isn't small. He's got more than enough room to have a yard, even a good-sized yard, maybe even two yards if he wanted-- and that's the intriguing part-- if he wanted.
Yards, at least in my mind, are a quintessential element of railroads. Sure other things are railroady too, but nothing says "railroad" quite like a yard full of tracks and switches can. So why would any model railroader worth his salt deliberately decide not to have one? I can understand if there's not enough room. When you're pressed for space you make the decisions you must in order to have any sort of layout. Or if the space (shape) is not conducive to a yard for some reason. Or the switches cost too much money-- or any practical reason whatsoever-- but why would a model railroader deliberately go to lengths to exclude such a central and obvious-- some might even say "crucial"-- component ??? The idea nearly defies logic!
And yet, Wayne's explanation was both simple and quite practical:
doctorwayneBecause I saved space by not having modelled yards, I was able to include many industries in most towns along the line, although the towns themselves are mostly much too close together.
Because I saved space by not having modelled yards, I was able to include many industries in most towns along the line, although the towns themselves are mostly much too close together.
Note that he was also quite specific in saying that he wasn't foregoing yards entirely, just not including them in his "modeled" portion-- i.e., they are there but hidden away as part of the staging areas for his layout. And whatever your opinion about yards is, I think its fair to say that it takes quite a reasoned approach to simply eliminate them from the modeled portion, since most modelers seem to thrive on yards. From my own observation, and from hearing other folks such as Cuyama and Steinjr (and others) talk, the yard is the very first item most modelers think about when starting a layout.
I think that at least considering a layout without a yard, not counting staging, is a smart idea. Whether you ultimately choose to go that way or not, you definitely gain additional space to utilize for other stuff that way. As Wayne said, "more room for industries", in his case. Another possibility is that you might be into rail-fanning and having a yard really isn't that big a deal, especially if you're not into switching or other features a yard might offer.
I know that on my own layout, I've been busy re-thinking its design without yards. After a lot of consideration, I don't think I'm going to forego them completely. But it has gotten me to thinking about whether or not the size of the yards I had in mind were (a) really appropriate for my layout, and (b) if I had been thinking about them the right way-- i.e., designed them the right way, such as to assist and facilitate operations, as opposed to having a "checklist of railroady items" and going "Yard, check!". I know that's also a thing that Cuyama speaks to a lot, the idea that yards are not necessarily the best thing or the most desirable thing for every layout. It really depends on the point and purpose of the layout, and how interested the builder is in switching and yard-related activities.
So My Questions For Today Are:
-- Do you have a yard on your layout? Do you have more than one yard on your layout? Do you have a yard that "doubles" as two yards-- i.e., pretends to be both ends of the run? If so, would you tell us about your yard? What type of yard is it? How does it operate? Is it just a "storage spot" for cars, or does it have a purpose in your layout's operations?
-- Secondly, for people who have critically examined the yard issue, have you completely eliminated the yard? Cut it down? Have one or more small interchange yards scattered here and there as needed? How do you handle overflows or delayed shipments and such that require more space somewhere?
-- Finally if DoctorWayne or Cuyama or SteinJr or anybody else that's expressed an opinion about yards here at some point or other would like to add to, expand on, or otherwise provide more information about their yards, or their philosophy about yards, that would be great.
As always, I'm looking forward to your thoughts and opinions, and pictures are always welcome!