Where railfans hang out is where they can get pictures of different trains or engines. So if given the choice of having 200 opportunities to photograph 1 switch engine in an afternoon or 10 opportunities to photograph different consists in an afternoon, they will go for the more varied consists. That has nothing to do with how the railroad operates, what it is or what it does.
Dave H
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Dave,One can watch switching and still get 10 or more opportunities to photograph different consists at a yard throat and that can give a better "action" background in some cases instead of just another (yawn) 3/4 main line view..
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
My apologies if I've misinterpreted your original comments.
Wayne
doctorwayne dehusman If the question, "Where do railfans gather?" has any part in your decision on what to model, then I would say you want to concentrate more on display or running than switching. That may be true for some (not everyone is interested in operations, and many don't have much of an idea about how it works, either). However, just because someone wants to model photogenic scenes doesn't necessarily preclude operations.
dehusman If the question, "Where do railfans gather?" has any part in your decision on what to model, then I would say you want to concentrate more on display or running than switching.
If the question, "Where do railfans gather?" has any part in your decision on what to model, then I would say you want to concentrate more on display or running than switching.
That may be true for some (not everyone is interested in operations, and many don't have much of an idea about how it works, either). However, just because someone wants to model photogenic scenes doesn't necessarily preclude operations.
Never said they were exclusive. Never said you shouldn't include photogenic scenes.
The discussion was about choosing what type of operations to have on the layout and choosing the location of the layout. My point was that if a person were selecting a location based on that being a popular place to photograph trains, that may mean the person's interests aren't necessarily operating and so they might want to design their layout more towards that interest. There was NO value judgement regarding one type over the other. It is merely that a person's criteria can give an insight into what type of layout might meet their needs most.
You are free to enjoy your version of operations, but to suggest that it's more realistic than someone who has no yards is, in my opinion, a somewhat narrow view.
That was not my suggestion, it was actually the opposite. If a person values a location that is a railfan hotspot then he should design towards that end. I've said all along that you can slice any piece you want out of a section of railroad, with yards or without.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
That may be true for some (not everyone is interested in operations, and many don't have much of an idea about how it works, either). However, just because someone wants to model photogenic scenes doesn't necessarily preclude operations. While today's experience may differ, unless you lived near a railyard, that was an unseen part of railroading, especially if your first contact with railroads, as a child, was in a small town or rural area. For me, even though I grew up in a city served by four railroads, my contact was with the trains that rolled past our front door, or, after my Dad finally got a car, with what rolled by when we were stopped at a crossing. A yard was somewhere that we couldn't go, and, except for the odd occasion when we might have driven by one, there was not much to see other than whatever was on the track closest to the road - it blocked the view of everything else.
While sorting cars and blocking trains may be an interesting and integral part of model railroading for some, I find that I can accomplish the same results by doing so manually (0-5-0 method) on a staging track, cycling cars onto the layout and, once they eventually return to a staging track, forwarding them (again, with the 0-5-0, back to their box), which represents the rest of the North American rail network.
In the interim, those cars may be switched out of one train and into another, left on a siding for pick-up by another train, delivered, full or empty to a customer, then routed elsewhere to deliver a load (often off-layout) or returned to staging as an empty. They may spend only a couple of hours on the layout, or several operating days (which could be weeks or months of real time). In any case, they're performing the same function as their real counterparts, carrying goods from one place to another. The fact that they're doing so over track that a LPR (little plastic railfan) might frequent detracts not one bit from their usefulness, nor from the realism of their purpose. The difference is that, within the confines of a similar-sized layout room, chances are I'll have more industries to serve and more scenic areas to photograph and enjoy than someone who's opted for modelled classification yards. That's not to say that my option is better, but it's better for my version of operations. You are free to enjoy your version of operations, but to suggest that it's more realistic than someone who has no yards is, in my opinion, a somewhat narrow view.
Dave-the-TrainFor me there is an endless fascination in the flow of a train on the move. Switching is repetition (and work) that is okay in small doses. I wonder where more rail fans are to be found? At places where trains are majestic or where they shuffle about? Maybe the answer would scale out at 50/50...
This question once again begs the question, are building a display layout or an operating piece of a railroad? Where railfans hang out has nothing to do with the business of railroads or how they operate. Where railfans hang out is where they can get pictures of different trains or engines. So if given the choice of having 200 opportunities to photograph 1 switch engine in an afternoon or 10 opportunities to photograph different consists in an afternoon, they will go for the more varied consists. That has nothing to do with how the railroad operates, what it is or what it does.
John,
The headlight is fabricated from a Microtrains bolster insert, with a grain of rice bulb stuffed into it. I filled the gap between the bulb and the insert with clear gloss medium, and painted the wires going down into the hull black so they don't stand out.
A little putty a little paint, make it something that it ain't!
Lee
Route of the Alpha Jets www.wmrywesternlines.net
leighantplus a visible staging yard for freight trains stuck behind the Santa Fe and Port yards, so it looks like "just more yardage."
That's a neat idea!
It's Muuuuuuuunnnday, and I'm awful late for Philosopohy Friday. But I was out of town and out of touch with my computer Friday, Saturday and Sunday. That's my excuse. Some might want to edit my post to read "I'm awful" and "out of touch" but....
And I have probably written about this same thing before, but the QUESTION is different. -- Do you have a yard on your layout? Do you have more than one yard on your layout? Do you have a yard that "doubles" as two yards? ...Have you completely eliminated the yard? Cut it down?
For some 20 years, I was happy with a layout with no yard. At least I was happy with the lack of a yard although I was unhappy that my curves were too tight for passenger cars and I did not have enough staging.
I modeled trains that came THROUGH this town, local peddler that originated elsewhere and a privately-owned shortline to a lumber mill.
(I ran all these trains at one time or another but there was not enough staging to run a full schedule in one session...)
There was a runaround and enginehouse for the shortline terminal, and an interchange spur at the main town scene, but nothing I called a yard. Perhaps this was partly my stubborn individuality at wanting a build a layout WITHOUT what many model railroaders consider indispensable.
I have long dreamed of a superduper layout that would include a "real" "working" yard, with a layout schematic like this:
Santa Vaca would be the main yard on the layout. A secondary through train would run between Santa Vaca and Lost River, and locals would service towns between Santa Vaca and Lost River, between Santa Vaca and Karankawa, and the Cane Belt branch, AND switch AT Santa Vaca industries, AND interchange with the South Texas Urban Belt ("STUB") for the Port of Santa Vaca. Cars to and from these points would be classed at the big SV yard, "Sixty-Fifth Street." Twice daily manifests would run north and south through Santa Vaca, each one dropping a cut and picking up a cut.
Of course this would require a huge layout and multiple operators, big room etc. Never going to happen for me at my age and financial status.
I did enjoy trying out something similar once, operating one of the yards on a past version of David Barrow's Cat Mountain.
I do not want to use a yard as "a place to store trains when they are not running." But the prototype on which I am basing my current layout under construction has LOTS of yards in one space...the island seaport terminus of Galveston, Texas.
It is an end-of-the-line point where NOTHING goes through. Trunkline trains terminate to be broken into large cuts for the port and a much smaller amount of traffic for local industries.
I am concentrating on modeling Santa Fe, with the port operation as a secondary but essential element. So I have two "working" freight yards- the trunkline Santa Fe yard and the Port RR yard, plus a visible staging yard for freight trains stuck behind the Santa Fe and Port yards, so it looks like "just more yardage."
Demara Yard (staging) is the only yard actually built so far.
As a staging yard, I expect it to be always nearly full. I hope I can keep the "working yards" half empty most of the time but I consider them small for the work they will have to do.
wm3798John,Re: my slug, it's modeled after the WM prototype that worked the Hagerstown yard into the mid 1980's. The BL-2 is the Life Like N scale version, and the slug combines parts from a Bachmann H-16-44 (the shell) and an Atlas VO-1000 (trucks and frame). I couldn't get it to sit low enough and keep the motor, so it's a dummy. I did retain the power pickups, though, and I added weight to the frame to aid in keeping good contact with the rail. The BL-2 by itself is a brick, and will easily pull anything you throw at it, so the added pick up just helps as the engine works back and forth through the yard throat.I took a bunch of pictures of the construction of it, but I haven't put an article together yet for the website... One of these days...Lee
Re: my slug, it's modeled after the WM prototype that worked the Hagerstown yard into the mid 1980's. The BL-2 is the Life Like N scale version, and the slug combines parts from a Bachmann H-16-44 (the shell) and an Atlas VO-1000 (trucks and frame). I couldn't get it to sit low enough and keep the motor, so it's a dummy. I did retain the power pickups, though, and I added weight to the frame to aid in keeping good contact with the rail. The BL-2 by itself is a brick, and will easily pull anything you throw at it, so the added pick up just helps as the engine works back and forth through the yard throat.
I took a bunch of pictures of the construction of it, but I haven't put an article together yet for the website... One of these days...
That's a really slick bash. What about the headlight? That's partly what gives it such a cool profile. Its a very unique model.
John
I wonder where more rail fans are to be found? At places where trains are majestic or where they shuffle about? Maybe the answer would scale out at 50/50...
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I had to think about that..
From my experiences they/we seem to mill about around main lines,juctions,crossing diamonds and near yard throats.
BRAKIE What maintenance? As you will recall the majority of my layouts has been industrial switching layouts and I have had very little maintenance type problems with KD #5 couplers..I have worked yards on point to point club layouts where every train must be reclassified and seen no maintenance problems cause by switching. So,why not enjoy yard switching on your layout instead of depriving yourself of this simple pleasure?
As you will recall the majority of my layouts has been industrial switching layouts and I have had very little maintenance type problems with KD #5 couplers..I have worked yards on point to point club layouts where every train must be reclassified and seen no maintenance problems cause by switching.
So,why not enjoy yard switching on your layout instead of depriving yourself of this simple pleasure?
What maintenance? As little as possible! ... which is achieved by good design and good practice.
I have known a lot of good layouts - but I've also known an awful lot that seemed to eat up more time in "putting things right" and/or "adjusting" than they achieve actual running time. ... so I want to avoid this. I think that a very important thing is disciplined maintenance... a big part of which is "DON'T start poking things until you've figured out what's wrong". There are some modellers that should have there tools locked away in a time sealed vault before they start a session.
I aim to provide enough simple (switching) pleasure to keep me happy... but I have been bitten by a "rolling train" bug. This is particularly to do with a location just outside London (Up end of Hither Green looking toward Lewisham) where trains come out of a fairly deep cut and sweep down a fill through very large curves. The result of this is that I have an 18 car set of Accurail ATSF covered hoppers that I can haul with a selection of Kato ATSF GP35s. Apart fromm individual weathering they are all the same... and they look gorgious sweeping through a scene... or creeping through it so slow you have to look twice to see if they're moving. I can't achieve this with a yard! I have other strings of matched cars for the same reason.
For me there is an endless fascination in the flow of a train on the move. Switching is repetition (and work) that is okay in small doses. I wonder where more rail fans are to be found? At places where trains are majestic or where they shuffle about? Maybe the answer would scale out at 50/50...
dehusmanAre you building a show layout or a working layout? I ask that because you have asked all sorts of questions on industries and yard arrangements etc.
You might say that this is where I'm going wrong... I tend not to distinguish between the two.
I think that both varieties of layout (if they are different) may be different on opposite sides of the pond. A good many of our home layouts are small enough (that is confined by space) to double as show layouts.
Something that I find to be a let down at shows is constant switching (shunting) of yards. In a lot of cases this involves the viewer being presented with a lot of bald heads. I will admit that at the other extreme trains hurtling round in circles also have a dire lack of appeal.
Reason I ask lots of weird questions is (at least) two fold.
First: I'm thousands of miles away so that while I have quite a bit of experience of the real thing it is a very different real thing. I am fascinated by the differences - even if I can't always get my head round them. One factor is that most of my working experience has been on lines that are predominatly passeneger traffic oriented. I would have to ask a lot of similar questions if I wanted to develop a UK freight layout... but it would be a lot easier to go out and observe!
Second: while I have settled into getting on with one layout I try to develop not just the modelled scene but a thorough concept of where (and how) the tiny bit of track fits into the whole scheme of things. This means that I think about what yards will be either side of my hotspot - both close to and further away... They generate the traffic and traffic patterns on my bit of track. In addition there is a theoretical yard only just off scene to one side - this means that some trains and transfer moves will get held up waiting to go in at times. Also (I think) I can sometimes pull trains out to get headroom (I think that that's the right term) and then push them back in again. -- There could also be some logic to loco and loco and caboose hops... You see? there's so much variety of movement available once I start to put my "1/2 mile of track" into a bigger world.
Questions about industries... they're the sources of the traffic. I must admit that when I started I really only thought about grain traffic and scrap metal. (thought about cattle as well but chose a too late period). It's all this wonderful forum's fault that I have extended into (for a start) coal traffic, steel - in various forms - auto-racks, woodchip hoppers, propane tank cars (Have I asked about them yet)?. You see; a yard can handle all or some of these but to do so would take a lot of space and materials... but my hotspot can have pretty much whatever I like trundling through it at one time or another.
I do have one serious issue... Following from the information I've gleaned here (THANKS EVERYONE) I'm reckoning a car repair works out to one side of the layout (opposite to the yard) with just the gates on the scenic bit... but then I want just two or three industry spots along the front of the layout for when I do want to do a bit of switching and car spotting... so the question is "which industries"??? I figure that a car works excuses just about any car from time to time. Individual industries are far more car specific.
The great thing about the hobby is that there is always something new to learn and another angle on how to go about it (or two - or three).
wm3798 markpierce Make me a yardmaster and I'm an unhappy child. Mark, I'll agree that not everyone is cut out to run a yard. Especially a busy one handling 20 or 30 trains during an ops session. Buy you have to agree, your job running that way freight is a lot easier if the cars are blocked together by destination, or otherwise organized to simplify your switching moves. That's going happen in a yard, 9 times out of 10.
markpierce Make me a yardmaster and I'm an unhappy child.
Make me a yardmaster and I'm an unhappy child.
Mark, I'll agree that not everyone is cut out to run a yard. Especially a busy one handling 20 or 30 trains during an ops session. Buy you have to agree, your job running that way freight is a lot easier if the cars are blocked together by destination, or otherwise organized to simplify your switching moves. That's going happen in a yard, 9 times out of 10.
Lee, I get a sense of relief when others have volunteered to be yardmaster and dispatcher. And, yes, I do appreciate having the cars blocked for me. Running way freights is sufficient challenge, keeping out of the way of everyone else, working out the puzzles some owners like to throw in, and trying not to "die" on the road before completing the task.
Mark
markpiercewm3798 If you think a yard is a waste of space, you might consider working with slot cars. I've operated on yardless layouts as well as layouts where the yards could just as well have been staging as far as I was concerned, and immensely enjoyed the experiences. I enjoy operating way/local freight trains switching industries along the right-of-way. Make me a yardmaster and I'm an unhappy child. A layout without a yard isn't necessarily operating trains in an endless circle. Mark
wm3798 If you think a yard is a waste of space, you might consider working with slot cars.
If you think a yard is a waste of space, you might consider working with slot cars.
I've operated on yardless layouts as well as layouts where the yards could just as well have been staging as far as I was concerned, and immensely enjoyed the experiences. I enjoy operating way/local freight trains switching industries along the right-of-way. Make me a yardmaster and I'm an unhappy child. A layout without a yard isn't necessarily operating trains in an endless circle.
Dave-the-Train This depends on the definition of "yard"... and, as we've discussed elsewhere, the type of yard. It also depends on the size. Again,as we've discussed elsewhere, a lot of small yards don't merit their own switcher... and will therefore only be switched by the train engines that work the yard once or twice a day... or a week.
And those industries will be only switched once a day or week too. So that doesn't meet you definition of a hotspot either.
A busy auto industry may be constantly switched by both its own and train engines all day and night... commonly with many repeat moves. I could suggest a heap of other industries... some of which are seasonal.
The YARD may be switched all day and all night, but not the industry. When the switcher is working the tracks the industry can't load or unload the cars. Normally the industry is only switched once a shift. Otherwise it interrupts the production of the autos.
One question I would have regarding modelling large(ish) yards:- How many people manage to have more than one loco/lash-up active at one time?
In the larger yards on model railroads I operate on their are often 2 switchers and one to 3 trains moving around the area of the yard. Since I have smaller yards, I will only have one switch engine and one road train working at the same time. If I was really motivated I could have one engine switching while another weighed cars at the same time. The other two smaller yards will also allow one train to be switching while another train operates in the area.
I guess that a lot of my thinking stems from going to shows over many decades. The "public" tend to cluster around layouts where trains move and not around the ones where (usually a single loco) switching endlessly repeats what to them are meaningless moves.
Are you building a show layout or a working layout? I ask that because you have asked all sorts of questions on industries and yard arrangements etc.
I've nothing at all against anyone else having as much or as many yards as they like... I'm just attempting to extend the philosophical debate. This is partly because I think that the orthodoxy is very much that layouts have yards and yards "have to be switched".
On the contrary, RAILROADS have yards.
As I said earlier, trains begin and end in yards, you can model any part of that continuum. If you don't want any yards you can do that, no problem. But if you want to simulate any of the activites that happen in a yard (building trains, terminating trains, arranging the cars in trains, storing cars, changing power, etc) then you have account for that.
dehusman A mainline location on a reasonable main line might have a dozen trains a day, that's one train every two hours or more for about 5-10 minutes, headlight to marker light. A yard can have almost constant activity 24 hours a day. These two points seem to suggest that main line track stands empty most of the time and that cars are constantly being shifted about in yards.
dehusman A mainline location on a reasonable main line might have a dozen trains a day, that's one train every two hours or more for about 5-10 minutes, headlight to marker light. A yard can have almost constant activity 24 hours a day.
A yard can have almost constant activity 24 hours a day.
These two points seem to suggest that main line track stands empty most of the time and that cars are constantly being shifted about in yards.
Exactly.
I'm sure that Dave, among others, has previously pointed out (on many occasions) that cars have to stand still at their spot for loading/unloading and/or that full or empty cars on the move go into yards, stand until they get switched into a loading position or into the next train they will be forwarded in and then they satnd until the locos hook on and take them out of the yard. The result is that cars spend most of their time in yards "dwelling"... unless you have something like a balloon track unloading coal or the auto industry mentioned above.
The cars may be stopped but the engines will be moving.
It occurs to me... if trains are every couple of hours along a mainline they can only arrive at the yard(s) every couple of hours... Okay with a "hurry up - slow down scenario" they may then have to wait outside the yard and crawl in after a long wait but you're still only going to get a dozen trains into the yard in the day. I'd hate to have to be train/yard crew that had to spend the whole 24 hours switching that around!
You need to actually operate on a large US style railroad.
On virtually every layout I have operated the most challenging jobs are the yards jobs, then the zone type switchers, then the road locals, then the through freights and finally the passenger trains. The train that takes the least knowledge or ability to operate is the first class train in the superior direction.
If you are running the yard correctly and the yard is designed properly, there is no holding up trains outside the yard. That's why you want your most experienced and capable operators in the major yards.
Dave-the-Train: I really do like spending ages switching trains/cars around model yards... other peoples'... they have to pay for them and maintain them.
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Dave,I missed this the first time but,I will ask: What maintenance?
jwhitten-- Do you have a yard on your layout? *snip* What type of yard is it? How does it operate? Is it just a "storage spot" for cars, or does it have a purpose in your layout's operations?
Yes, I model the Lebanon, NH, yard. It has two A/D tracks, three classification tracks, and one caboose/loco/RIP (shop) track, although I need to make this last one more usable as it's usually clogged with locomotives. The yard is single-ended, although the A/D tracks can be made double-ended with some trackwork at the west end of the yard. Right now the yard job (LE-1) uses Lebanon Siding as a runaround track and yard lead. Yes, I'm breaking rules as to fouling the main (and the lead) but it works.
The yard is fully operational and except for the shop track and a non-operational storage track, nothing stays in the yard for longer than a scale day. Two locals are based out of the yard, and fed by the freight to Concord and transfer jobs from the railroad yards across the Connecticut River in White River Junction - New England Central, Pan Am/Guilford, and Vermont Railways.
My railroad operates with three operators, so it would be very boring indeed for the operator of the through freight and the crew of LE-1 if there was no yard. Operations would consist of running in circles and switching two industries, respectively.
Plus, yard ops are fun. And that's what it's all about, right?
Dave-the-Train:I'm sure that Dave, among others, has previously pointed out (on many occasions) that cars have to stand still at their spot for loading/unloading and/or that full or empty cars on the move go into yards, stand until they get switched into a loading position or into the next train they will be forwarded in and then they satnd until the locos hook on and take them out of the yard. The result is that cars spend most of their time in yards "dwelling"... unless you have something like a balloon track unloading coal or the auto industry mentioned above.
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I dunno but,cars could sit for real days/weeks between op sessions compared to 18-32 hour dwell time a real car can sit in a yard or 2 days at a industry.
As far as main lines those can sit idle for hours and then have a hot 3-4 hour period and sit quiet for several more hours..I have been trackside for 3 hours and see nothing but,2 rails and nothing louder then crickets on some days I will see 12 trains during that same time frame.I can go to Fostoria and see a train every few minutes but,there will be a lull when nothing runs.
I can go to Bellevue or Willard yard and usually is something moving.Of course both are major terminals.
On the other hand the average layout yard isn't large enough to have a yard crew 24/7 or a large engine facility.
Dave-the-Traindehusman Au contraire. Yards ARE the hot spots. An industry is switched maybe once a day. A mainline location on a reasonable main line might have a dozen trains a day, that's one train every two hours or more for about 5-10 minutes, headlight to marker light. A yard can have almost constant activity 24 hours a day. This depends on the definition of "yard"... and, as we've discussed elsewhere, the type of yard. It also depends on the size. Again,as we've discussed elsewhere, a lot of small yards don't merit their own switcher... and will therefore only be switched by the train engines that work the yard once or twice a day... or a week.One question I would have regarding modelling large(ish) yards:- How many people manage to have more than one loco/lash-up active at one time? I've nothing at all against anyone else having as much or as many yards as they like... I'm just attempting to extend the philosophical debate. This is partly because I think that the orthodoxy is very much that layouts have yards and yards "have to be switched". I think that this can lead newcomers into a trap. Yes there can be yards... but there don't have to be. dehusman A mainline location on a reasonable main line might have a dozen trains a day, that's one train every two hours or more for about 5-10 minutes, headlight to marker light. A yard can have almost constant activity 24 hours a day. These two points seem to suggest that main line track stands empty most of the time and that cars are constantly being shifted about in yards. I'm sure that Dave, among others, has previously pointed out (on many occasions) that cars have to stand still at their spot for loading/unloading and/or that full or empty cars on the move go into yards, stand until they get switched into a loading position or into the next train they will be forwarded in and then they satnd until the locos hook on and take them out of the yard. The result is that cars spend most of their time in yards "dwelling"... unless you have something like a balloon track unloading coal or the auto industry mentioned above. There is no reason at all why we shouldn't compress time in the same way if we choose to have no yards. Yes trains may only be in sight at a particular mainline spot a dozen times a day... but in the model world we can squash that hour or two into a neat operating session without sitting waiting for ages between trains.
dehusman Au contraire. Yards ARE the hot spots. An industry is switched maybe once a day. A mainline location on a reasonable main line might have a dozen trains a day, that's one train every two hours or more for about 5-10 minutes, headlight to marker light. A yard can have almost constant activity 24 hours a day.
An industry is switched maybe once a day.
A mainline location on a reasonable main line might have a dozen trains a day, that's one train every two hours or more for about 5-10 minutes, headlight to marker light.
This depends on the definition of "yard"... and, as we've discussed elsewhere, the type of yard. It also depends on the size. Again,as we've discussed elsewhere, a lot of small yards don't merit their own switcher... and will therefore only be switched by the train engines that work the yard once or twice a day... or a week.
There is no reason at all why we shouldn't compress time in the same way if we choose to have no yards. Yes trains may only be in sight at a particular mainline spot a dozen times a day... but in the model world we can squash that hour or two into a neat operating session without sitting waiting for ages between trains.
One thing to keep in mind for my layout and its operation is that it's a solo effort. So whether I were switching a large yard, running a through freight, operating a local that switches every town, or just 0-5-0ing a bunch of "delivered" cars out of staging and adding fresh ones, that's all that would be happening. It's one of the reasons that DCC holds no attraction for me - I don't want trains running unattended.
So, rather than have active yards (switched by a loco), I manually "interchange" my rolling stock between staging and the storage shelves. Cars that are on the layout (either in staging or spotted somewhere on the layout waiting to be picked up and delivered elsewhere) provide the switching opportunities, as almost all trains are run as locals, switching the industries in all of the towns through which they pass. Even passenger trains can add or drop a car or two for another train. Given the number of industries in each town, there's always plenty to do. And, when the work in one town is done, I get to enjoy mainline running, too - the "hotspot" is wherever I happen to be operating at the time. There is no lag between trains, no lull in the action, unless I chose to take a break. And, with the space saved by eliminating on-layout yards, I have plenty of switching variety all along the route.
doctorwayneSanta Fe Rick... The largest yard is Kansas City. About 8 ft wide by 40ft long. Rick I'm guessing that uncoupling is not done manually. Wayne
Santa Fe Rick... The largest yard is Kansas City. About 8 ft wide by 40ft long. Rick
I'm guessing that uncoupling is not done manually.
Santa Fe - All the way! Missouri Pacific - Route of the Eagles!
Somewhere like Blue Island has pretty frequent traffic... which has the added interest that sometimes things are quiet and trains just roll through while at other times things get backed up and trains have to take their turn.
For my own preference one great advantage of the hotspot is that there is little or no on-scene coupling/uncoupling to be done unless one chooses to do it. In my own scheme I am incorporating a small amount of rail served industry so that I can do the odd bit of switching when I feel like it. This also has the advantage of having to be slotted between trains on the move.
I'm pretty much a lone wolf with occasional visitors so for me much yard activity would pretty well mean the suspension of any other traffic. A hotspot can be worked with trains following in a string - alternating opposing trains (or strings) - putting some trains "in clear" to let following or opposing trains to pass - and a bit of switching can be worked in between/avoiding causing a block. All this can be done with a bunch of ready prepared trains waiting in off scene staging.
The best bit of show switching I ever saw was on an American layout at the end of a long and very hot weekend. A surviving operator was happily working his way through all the cars. His pal came up and watched for a bit before asking him what his system was... his response - "I'm sorting them by colour"!
I've nothing at all against anyone else having as much or as many yards as they like... I'm just attempting to extend the philosophical debate. This is partly because I think that the orthodoxy is very much that layouts have yards and yards "have to be switched". I think that this can lead newcomers into a trap. Yes there can be yards... but there don't have to be.
When we operate our layouts we don't (usually) spot cars at a specified time of day and then leave them there the appropriate time for loading and until they are collected by the subsequent available switching move or passing way freight. We play trains and switch them as we want in a pattern or sequence. This may provide some standing time but we don't tie ourselves up with "prototype timing". I guess that it could be said that we "selectively compress" time.
I think that there is a (frequently mentioned) difference between modellers and real train/yard crew. Modellers can play trains to their hearts content (and good luck to them ) but real railroaders have to walk the track, inspecting, recording, and loads more. They want to be "busy enough" (because they don't want the yard to close" but they don't want to be doing anything unnecessary.
Anyway... my point was to model a hotspot selected for things happening not a piece of "reasonable main line".
I really do like spending ages switching trains/cars around model yards... other peoples'... they have to pay for them and maintain them.
jwhitten-- Do you have a yard on your layout? Do you have more than one yard on your layout? Do you have a yard that "doubles" as two yards-- i.e., pretends to be both ends of the run? If so, would you tell us about your yard? What type of yard is it? How does it operate? Is it just a "storage spot" for cars, or does it have a purpose in your layout's operations?
My former layout had --- and the new one under construction will have --- three yards altogether: an off-layout staging yard, a small marshalling yard, and a 'private' yard for the steel mill.
I made the staging yard double-ended to allow for continuous running when desired. It is [hopefully] the only place where any 0-5-0 switching is performed. The visible yards have clearly-defined purposes - every car passing thru them has another origin/destination somewhere else on the layout.
The marshalling yard is also double-ended for ease of operation. Its primary purpose is to receive cars destined for local industries, assemble/dissect peddler freights, and sort returned (outgoing) cars according to East- or Westbound off-layout destinations. It also hosts a locomotive servicing facility.
My steel mill yard consists of 4 stub-ended tracks plus two runaround tracks. Its primary purpose is to serve as a central gathering place for the cars on the various spurs within the mill. Occasionally, whole trains are received there; but most of the time small cuts of cars are delivered by the peddler freight from the marshalling yard. Otherwise the in-plant switcher is shuffling cars between the yard and the various loading/unloading points.
A visitor once commented that my marshalling yard was almost empty after a recent op session. This is because I try to follow Craig Bisgeier's guidelines for yard design by making sure that the yard is never [OK, almost never] more than half-full, so there will always be enough track available for sorting and shuffling cars. The yardmaster's objective is to get every incoming car back out of there as quickly as possible.
-Ken in Maryland (B&O modeler, former CSX modeler)
1. Do you have a yard on your layout?
-Technically speaking, my entire current layout is a yard, as it is all within yard limits. That said, it is not a classification yard. Instead, the layout represents a small industrial yard in West Portsmouth, Virginia. The local (and any other trains) originates in staging, and make its way onto the layout. it then switches the customers, and returns to staging.
-The decision to eliminate a visible classification yard was made due to the amount of available space. I wanted to maximize the number and types of available customers. Devoting space to a classification yard would have limited the space available for customers. There are storage tracks on the layout, and cars from these tracks, along with cars brought over by the local, are used to spot the customers.
-Staging is not extensive... again, this is a small industrial yard, not the main terminal. One track is all that is needed now, a second may be added. Any additional needs can be handled via 0-5-0, using the staging as a fiddle yard.
jwhitten So My Questions For Today Are: -- Do you have a yard on your layout? Do you have more than one yard on your layout? Do you have a yard that "doubles" as two yards-- i.e., pretends to be both ends of the run? If so, would you tell us about your yard? What type of yard is it? How does it operate? Is it just a "storage spot" for cars, or does it have a purpose in your layout's operations? -- Secondly, for people who have critically examined the yard issue, have you completely eliminated the yard? Cut it down? Have one or more small interchange yards scattered here and there as needed? How do you handle overflows or delayed shipments and such that require more space somewhere? -- Finally if DoctorWayne or Cuyama or SteinJr or anybody else that's expressed an opinion about yards here at some point or other would like to add to, expand on, or otherwise provide more information about their yards, or their philosophy about yards, that would be great. As always, I'm looking forward to your thoughts and opinions, and pictures are always welcome! John
So My Questions For Today Are:
-- Do you have a yard on your layout? Do you have more than one yard on your layout? Do you have a yard that "doubles" as two yards-- i.e., pretends to be both ends of the run? If so, would you tell us about your yard? What type of yard is it? How does it operate? Is it just a "storage spot" for cars, or does it have a purpose in your layout's operations?
-- Secondly, for people who have critically examined the yard issue, have you completely eliminated the yard? Cut it down? Have one or more small interchange yards scattered here and there as needed? How do you handle overflows or delayed shipments and such that require more space somewhere?
-- Finally if DoctorWayne or Cuyama or SteinJr or anybody else that's expressed an opinion about yards here at some point or other would like to add to, expand on, or otherwise provide more information about their yards, or their philosophy about yards, that would be great.
As always, I'm looking forward to your thoughts and opinions, and pictures are always welcome!
I may have a very small HO layout {3.5 feet by 5.1 feet}, but I DO have a small spur yard inside the inner oval. It is a 4 track spur yard. It serves all three purposes you mention above: 1} it is for storage of RR cars {though it certainly won't hold all the cars I have}; 2} It acts as a beginning yard to construct trains to go out to the "main lines"; and 3} it acts as the yard at the ending point of a "run". It is my storage and staging combined into one. It does break the rule of fouling the main as the inner oval is "secondary main line" or small "sub line", but I can't help that. The outside oval is the real "main line", so it doesn't bother me. I construct the trian for the outside oval then construct the train for the inner oval secondary.
I also have one long fake "storage rack" spur that runs the length of the ionside oval to hold my engines that runs parallel to and behind the yard spurs and my Station that "looks like part of the yard". It is not connected to the trackwork {no room for another switch}, nor to the DCC unit, so I don't burn anything out.
If I had room to build a larger layout {I hope for a 4x8 or some configuration thereof someday}, I would still include a small spur yard for the three reasons I mentioned above. If I have room, I would make it a larger "fiddle yard" and would like a few more than the 4 spurs and one fake one. I would also like to have an engine terminal/service facility/storage yard area to hold engines {blocked off so as not to burn out anything}.
But for now, I can only dream!
-G .
Just my thoughts, ideas, opinions and experiences. Others may vary.
HO and N Scale.
After long and careful thought, they have convinced me. I have come to the conclusion that they are right. The aliens did it.
wm3798I think my favorite part of having a functioning yard, though, is between ops sessions. This is when I get a chance to run the yard myself, checking the car cards and waybills, and shuffling the cars to build the trains that we'll run during the next session.I really enjoy pulling out a cut of cars, and switching them into the class tracks and getting them ready to run to their next destination. It's the one job on the railroad that is always changing.
I think my favorite part of having a functioning yard, though, is between ops sessions. This is when I get a chance to run the yard myself, checking the car cards and waybills, and shuffling the cars to build the trains that we'll run during the next session.
I really enjoy pulling out a cut of cars, and switching them into the class tracks and getting them ready to run to their next destination. It's the one job on the railroad that is always changing.
Lee,
Nice write-up about your yards!
What's the story with your 'B' unit (slug) in the picture? That really looks cool. Did you model that yourself?
doctorwaynejwhittenBut, with respect to your specific question-- "If you have a single track and 0-5-0 switch does that not constitue a yard functionally?" I suppose it does conceptually, but I don't think anybody here has suggested that using the 0-5-0 is a suitable alternative-- I certainly wouldn't want that as my only option. Actually, John, for me it is the suitable alternative. With all of my staging tracks being dead-ended, the trains generally need to be physically removed from the layout in order to free up the locomotives (there are no "escape" tracks). Of course, some cars in these trains will be destined for on-line industries, either in the town adjacent to that particular staging yard, or elsewhere on the layout. For these, the yard will be switched with a locomotive, with the cars distributed appropriately. All others, either empty home road cars or empties or loads destined for "elsewhere" are "switched" off the layout and back in their respective boxes under the layout, using my trusty 0-5-0.
jwhittenBut, with respect to your specific question-- "If you have a single track and 0-5-0 switch does that not constitue a yard functionally?" I suppose it does conceptually, but I don't think anybody here has suggested that using the 0-5-0 is a suitable alternative-- I certainly wouldn't want that as my only option.
But, with respect to your specific question-- "If you have a single track and 0-5-0 switch does that not constitue a yard functionally?" I suppose it does conceptually, but I don't think anybody here has suggested that using the 0-5-0 is a suitable alternative-- I certainly wouldn't want that as my only option.
Actually, John, for me it is the suitable alternative.
With all of my staging tracks being dead-ended, the trains generally need to be physically removed from the layout in order to free up the locomotives (there are no "escape" tracks). Of course, some cars in these trains will be destined for on-line industries, either in the town adjacent to that particular staging yard, or elsewhere on the layout. For these, the yard will be switched with a locomotive, with the cars distributed appropriately. All others, either empty home road cars or empties or loads destined for "elsewhere" are "switched" off the layout and back in their respective boxes under the layout, using my trusty 0-5-0.
Sure, I don't disagree with you. I guess I interpreted the question slightly differently and wasn't thinking about simply taking the cars off the layout and putting them back in their boxes. Probably for most people that is a typical "operation". I read the question as if there was *no* staging whatsoever (or else just the one track extending), which may have been a misreading on my part, in which case the "0-5-0" handling *is* the "yard switching". And the issue of on/off the layout and back into the boxes didn't occur to me.
I wonder, just for the record, if it takes *two* hands, is that a pair of MU'd 0-5-0's, or is it Ten-coupled power???
Excellent write up and explination of what a good functioning yard should be. I agree with you, the yard is the life blood of the railroad. On my layout the yard operations will be similar to yours, classifying freight cars, and sorting a cut of cars to serve the local industries.
Just my opinion of course....
Michael
CEO- Mile-HI-RailroadPrototype: D&RGW Moffat Line 1989