I think this has been a facinating thread-- thank you very much CNJ831 for starting it.
For anybody just picking it up, here are links to parts I & II:
Declining Interest in Web Forums
Declining Interest in Web Forums -- Part II. What to Do About it?
In the other threads one item that has come through often and very clearly is the suggestion that there are not enough "Advanced Topics" to hold the interest of the "Advanced" hobbyists. And by extension, I presume the same could be said for "Intermediate Topics".
Personally I am not sure what either of those are, though I reckon that I might be able to pick some out if placed side-by-side with the beginner topics.
But I am curious what the next levels are-- what are "Intermediate" and "Advanced" topics?
Please be as specific as you can, I'm taking notes!
john
My ideas for advanced:
Scratchbuilding
kitbashing (sometimes takes more skill than scratchbuilding)
DC wiring techniques and inventive ways of wiring for blocks, reverse loops etc.
Hand laying track techniques including scratchbuilding frogs and points
painting (with an airbrush) and weathering (I will say there are alot of great examples of fantastic weathering on this forum)
Creative solutions to layout dilemas (The track had to get behind the water heater and through the stairs and this is how I solved it.)
Theres probably more but this is off the top of my head.
Check out the Deming Sub by clicking on the pics:
Two points to ponder, and a question:
So, really, who cares? To all of the above except airbrushing I can honestly say, "Been there, done that." So, I feel qualified to help novices and offer second opinions - but I still wear the same size hat and I know that there isn't a single area of expertise where there isn't someone (or a whole regiment of someones) more expert than I will ever be.
Am I intimidated by so-called 'experts.' I'm a retired Master Sergeant. Draw your own conclusions.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
I think most of the "advanced" modelers don't even read or participate in these forums, possibly because they regard them as too beginner oriented and want to participate in something more to their level of experience.
I'm certainly not one of the advanced modelers, but I do get very tired of reading the same old "What DCC system should I buy?" type of questions that come up every week, week after week.
I used to reply to some of these questions, but now I just ignore them.
An advanced topic that is guaranteed to kill a thread or generate only a few responses is anything on prototypical operations (car forwards, main track authority). Pretty much the only places I have found that discuss anything N. American operations-wise with any depth or regularity are the OpSig Yahoo Group and a couple other purely dispatching oriented Yahoo Groups. I have found a foreign site or two that regularly discuss operations outside the US, mostly in the UK or Europe, but the operation there is so conceptually different it really isn't transferrable to N American practice, other than it is "operation".
Don't know whether its lack of interest, fear of participating, fear of actual debate, or resistance to structure, on most forums an "operations" thread is mostly pictures of guys running trains with no discussion of why or how.
I've tried participating in threads, starting threads, hijacking threads, being supportive, being confrontational, everything I can think of on forums outside the Opsig and nada, can't generate a lick of interest.
Discuss how to search the internet and you'll spawn 2 or 3 other threads with a couple hundred posts, that will live for weeks. Discuss how a real train gets from A to B and if you get 3 or 4 posts, if you are lucky (not counting the posters who will object to being too realistic or prototypically oriented) and it dies within a day or two with zero follow up.
Oh well.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
As I said on the other thread, it is not so much the issue of "intermediate" or "advanced" but one of focus. This forum by nature is too broad to hold the attention of someone with a more focused interest.
You gain experience, you find what you really enjoy and you seek out and find groups that cater more specifically to that interest. It does not mean that you are necessarily a better modeller.
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
All this contemplation of your navels is kind of silly.
It's a model train forum, not anything really important. People will drift in and drift out. It was a miserable winter and now its a nice spring. Plus its spring break in a lot of places. Some people are out enjoying the real world.
As was shown days ago, participation is not really down by a large amount. Just CNJ trying to claim the hobby is dying in a different way. Consider the source.
Some of you seem to be really bored, maybe you should try a hobby _besides_ internet forums.
cacoleI think most of the "advanced" modelers don't even read or participate in these forums, possibly because they regard them as too beginner oriented and want to participate in something more to their level of experience.
I get that, and I'm trying to figure out what people mean by "advanced" but so far only one respondant has even attempted to answer the question.
Are the advanced topics so advanced that us mere mortals don't have a snowball's chance in understanding them or participating?
I mean its not like they're discussing how many Brakemen can Gandy-Dance on the Head of a Railroad Spike.... are they???
John
dehusmanAn advanced topic that is guaranteed to kill a thread or generate only a few responses is anything on prototypical operations (car forwards, main track authority). Pretty much the only places I have found that discuss anything N. American operations-wise with any depth or regularity are the OpSig Yahoo Group and a couple other purely dispatching oriented Yahoo Groups. I have found a foreign site or two that regularly discuss operations outside the US, mostly in the UK or Europe, but the operation there is so conceptually different it really isn't transferrable to N American practice, other than it is "operation". Don't know whether its lack of interest, fear of participating, fear of actual debate, or resistance to structure, on most forums an "operations" thread is mostly pictures of guys running trains with no discussion of why or how. I've tried participating in threads, starting threads, hijacking threads, being supportive, being confrontational, everything I can think of on forums outside the Opsig and nada, can't generate a lick of interest. Discuss how to search the internet and you'll spawn 2 or 3 other threads with a couple hundred posts, that will live for weeks. Discuss how a real train gets from A to B and if you get 3 or 4 posts, if you are lucky (not counting the posters who will object to being too realistic or prototypically oriented) and it dies within a day or two with zero follow up. Oh well.
I guess it all comes down to what you know and are comfortable with.
I, for one, am interested (actually *very* interested) in prototypical operations but am intimidated by the subject. I have numerous books on it, including Koster's Prototypical Operations Book and Chubb's Sunset Valley Book, which has a good sized chunk devoted to the subject, Armstrong's mini-guide to signalling (whatever its called), and so forth-- and they all seem intimidating, and I don't quite get how to start unravelling all of the information.
I'm sure there must be a way to ease into the subject, get some fundamental concepts down (which I probably already have) and then move gently ever onward into the more and more advanced elements. But most of the things I've seen assume you're ready to shoot the moon by the second or third paragraph-- well, maybe not literally, but it sure seems that way.
Would you be willing to take a stab at starting a series of "Prototypical Operations" threads that starts out really simply and then moves on from there? Perhaps do it over several successively advanced threads so that people can "graduate" from the one and move on to the next, and so on?
I would love to read and participate in something like that.
simon1966 It does not mean that you are necessarily a better modeller.
I don't think that implication was ever raised-- was it?
I was just asking what the more advanced topics are for my own edification, and anybody else who's interested and reading along.
Over on the new "Forum Members: Just A Quick Huddle if you don't mind!" I suggested adding a beginners forum section. Perhaps there should be a "beginners forum", and an "advanced forum" like there is the "electronic and DCC" section and a "layouts and layout building" section.
Anyone who feels they are "advanced" can go there, anyone who is a newbie can go to the beginners forum and others can cross between the two, since "intermediate" may be hard to define.
Like a first year DR, may have little tolerance for a first year Med student, the more advanced here loose patience with the novices. The feeling of superiority and inferiorority exists in all of us when praised or put down.
What amazes me is that most here have children and grandchildren.....they have patience and teaching lessons for them but not for the novice on the forum????
In short, WE should ALL practice tollerance, kindness, gentleness with our selves, our forum and other forum members, and enjoy it, regardless of skill level.
-G .
Just my thoughts, ideas, opinions and experiences. Others may vary.
HO and N Scale.
After long and careful thought, they have convinced me. I have come to the conclusion that they are right. The aliens did it.
jwhittenAre the advanced topics so advanced that us mere mortals don't have a snowball's chance in understanding them or participating?
You are barking up the wrong tree. This notion that things are "so advanced" that "mortals" need not apply overt-states what happens on a more focused forum.
Take a niche facet of the hobby, Craftsman Structure Building, as an example. If this is something you are interested in, following build threads etc, there is not much of that here. There are other forums that have a stronger focus and provide more meat, to those that are interested. They are not more advanced, just more specialized.
jwhitten simon1966 It does not mean that you are necessarily a better modeller. I don't think that implication was ever raised-- was it?
I think that several of the post on the various threads gave the distinct impression that this was a beginners place and when you became more accomplished you moved on.
My counter was to suggest that rather than becoming more accomplished, one simply became more focused.
jwhitten Would you be willing to take a stab at starting a series of "Prototypical Operations" threads that starts out really simply and then moves on from there? Perhaps do it over several successively advanced threads so that people can "graduate" from the one and move on to the next, and so on?
As Dave H. mentioned, this goes on on the OpSIG Yahoo Group. By the way, for those who wish to learn about real-life and model operations, the OpSIG is a great source. And at 5 bucks per year for membership with electronic delivery of the publication, it's the best deal in model railroading. The OpSIG's Operations Primer FAQ is another good source, as are the Gateway NMRA's Operations pages.
A few years ago I started a thread that began with ops on a 4X8 and went from there. Some may find it helpful as another way to look at beginning operations.http://cs.trains.com/trccs/forums/p/46614/590152.aspx#590152
Byron
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
simon1966jwhittenAre the advanced topics so advanced that us mere mortals don't have a snowball's chance in understanding them or participating? You are barking up the wrong tree. This notion that things are "so advanced" that "mortals" need not apply overt-states what happens on a more focused forum. Take a niche facet of the hobby, Craftsman Structure Building, as an example. If this is something you are interested in, following build threads etc, there is not much of that here. There are other forums that have a stronger focus and provide more meat, to those that are interested. They are not more advanced, just more specialized.
I am not barking up any tree at all-- I am merely following-up on the comments that others have made in response to these threads. They are the ones who are terming things "more advanced". I indicated at the outset that I don't know what "advanced" topics are and that's why I started this thread-- to find out.
That said, I understand "more specialized", that makes sense.
cuyamajwhitten Would you be willing to take a stab at starting a series of "Prototypical Operations" threads that starts out really simply and then moves on from there? Perhaps do it over several successively advanced threads so that people can "graduate" from the one and move on to the next, and so on? As Dave H. mentioned, this goes on on the OpSIG Yahoo Group. By the way, for those who wish to learn about real-life and model operations, the OpSIG is a great source. And at 5 bucks per year for membership with electronic delivery of the publication, it's the best deal in model railroading. The OpSIG's Operations Primer FAQ is another good source, as are the Gateway NMRA's Operations pages. A few years ago I started a thread that began with ops on a 4X8 and went from there. Some may find it helpful as another way to look at beginning operations.http://cs.trains.com/trccs/forums/p/46614/590152.aspx#590152 Byron
Thanks for the info Byron! Much appreciated.
I am already a member of OpSig and do go there from time-to-time to peruse the various articles and such. And there are definitely a lot of good bits of info to be gleaned there.
And I will also go take a look at the thread you referenced, thanks for the pointer.
And don't forget to plug your own site: www.layoutvision.com wherein you discuss anything and everything noteworthy for the Beginner, Intermediate, Advanced and Demi-God status modeler...
(I really *LOVE* your site! )
Al Mayo, you poor little kid. whats wrong with ya?
el-capitan My ideas for advanced: Scratchbuilding kitbashing (sometimes takes more skill than scratchbuilding) DC wiring techniques and inventive ways of wiring for blocks, reverse loops etc. Hand laying track techniques including scratchbuilding frogs and points painting (with an airbrush) and weathering (I will say there are alot of great examples of fantastic weathering on this forum) Creative solutions to layout dilemas (The track had to get behind the water heater and through the stairs and this is how I solved it.) Theres probably more but this is off the top of my head.
The forum is not a school system with a fixed ciriculum, thus the posters, or students as a metaphore, decide what will be discussed by asking questions or making comments. If you think this fourm is, "dumbing down," everyone because the posters are not, "advanced," enough, then it seems it's up to you to start discussions of some of the things you mentioned because you are the only one who can control that. If you have, great; if you haven't, close this discussion and get busy; it will solve a lot of the complaints you and a lot the other posters have, and I'm saying that in a nice way as constructive criticism.
Ray
rayw46el-capitan My ideas for advanced: Scratchbuilding kitbashing (sometimes takes more skill than scratchbuilding) DC wiring techniques and inventive ways of wiring for blocks, reverse loops etc. Hand laying track techniques including scratchbuilding frogs and points painting (with an airbrush) and weathering (I will say there are alot of great examples of fantastic weathering on this forum) Creative solutions to layout dilemas (The track had to get behind the water heater and through the stairs and this is how I solved it.) Theres probably more but this is off the top of my head. The forum is not a school system with a fixed ciriculum, thus the posters, or students as a metaphore, decide what will be discussed by asking questions or making comments. If you think this fourm is, "dumbing down," everyone because the posters are not, "advanced," enough, then it seems it's up to you to start discussions of some of the things you mentioned because you are the only one who can control that. If you have, great; if you haven't, close this discussion and get busy; it will solve a lot of the complaints you and a lot the other posters have, and I'm saying that in a nice way as constructive criticism. Ray
I don't think he was complaining about anything at all, nor "dumbing down" the forum-- he was responding to and attempting to answer my original question at the outset-- what is it that people are terming "advanced topics". The term / idea came up repeatedly in the replies and I am just curious what it is that people are referring to.
To me, it absolutely is an issue of focus rather than "advanced" or not. On this forum, there's a thread about basic track planning questions right next to one about installing a decoder, next to one about dealing with your wife's complaints about the hobby. There are a few that 'go deep' in terms of number of posts, but very few that go deep in terms of content. On The Railwire, I've seen threads that go on for 12 pages about the accuracy of a particular paint scheme, or different methods of improving a particular drive. On Scale Rails Online, I've seen individual posters mount up lengthy blogs about how they built a particular kit, as well as layout progress blogs that are readily accessible for people to follow along.
Because of the volume of traffic here, and the lack of any real focus in terms of content, things move along so rapidly that it's easy for a good topic to get buried pages deep in a matter of hours, while pointless nonsense like Beer Barn and Diner threads keep floating to the top with reports on the local weather. The Railwire has a separate forum called "Crew Lounge" where all the off-topic conversations get corralled.
As I noted previously, I visit here to see if anyone is dipping their toes in to N scale so I can try to answer their questions, and frankly, to troll for talent that might become a good contributor to one of the more focused forums I visit. (Dr. Vollmer, Paging Dr. Vollmer!)
This forum is a great place to enjoy the view and skip stones across the surface, but when it's time to do some in-depth discussion about a very focused subject, there are other venues that provide a much better platform for that.
Lee
Route of the Alpha Jets www.wmrywesternlines.net
jwhittenIntermediate Topics
Small yards
Comparing quality of different manufacturers equipment (No more which is best DCC system!) I can dream right?
How to do landscaping (more pictures the better)
Upgrading rolling stock (make them roll better, conversion to knuckle couplers, NMRA weight standards)
How to repair engines. I love the posting by Darth Santa Fe.
Pro-type photos of buildings. Thanks for starting that post Tom!
Tools you should have. Should be a beginner's thread, but once you have what you did not know you needed makes life simpler!
Best places to shop if you don't have a good LHS.
Building a good quality bench. Photos again.
Weathering, again with Photos.
I hate Rust
I learned a few things about posts for "advanced" modelers. I started in HO then moved to large scale and as such spent most of my forum time on another location but I spend time here as my layout is indoors, I have built or kitbashed dozens (literally) of locos now, and on the other place used to post fairly lenthy topics documenting how I built my engine hoping others would learn from the techniques i was using, but over time I found that less people were responding and this corresponded to the growing availablity of RTR engines and stock coming on the market. I eventually just stopped posting as I would have a lenthy thread with only a small handfull of replies. Doing a building log for the benifit of "intermediate" or "advanced" takes alot of time and effort to document and post the photos and text, and after a while you get tired of feeling like your speaking to an empty room, sure their might be a lot of hits but you really dont know if they are actually reading your work, or just skimming and moving on. I switched tactics and started doing smaller easier to do projects like do it yourself link and pin logging couplers, even that didnt garner much interest as everyone was content to add RTR Kadees or like, so while a few other more advanced modelers did enjoy and appreciate the posts, and a small handfull of guys tried and learnd and eventually grew to be pretty darn good modelers themselves, the time and effort needed to document and post the building logs just got to be too much in the end, so I stopped. I might start another if I feel what I'm doing would be of interest, but then in my scale anyways, most people are now doing the RTR thing and are just not interested anymore. Just my own experience....
There are cases of this here, alot of long time guys who used to post long and informative topics about scenery, layout planning, kitbashing have grown quieter over the years.
Have fun with your trains
vsmithI switched tactics and started doing smaller easier to do projects like do it yourself link and pin logging couplers
Yes, I read that one, it was pretty good actually.
And I think I might have read some of your loco building articles too-- but it was before I was ready / able to really take it all in-- I could do some better now, but I'm still not ready for that yet.
In running, a person who is faster than me is a runner. A person who is slower than me is a jogger.
So it is with model railroading. Somebody with better skills or layout or models than mine is an advanced model railroader. Someboy with lesser skills, layout, or models is a beginner.
The threads will be what people feel like posting.
now back to model railroading
Fred W
Advanced Topic: I don't understand this at all - haven't a clue how to get started.
Intermediate Topic: I think I understand this, but I can't always get it to work right.
Beginner Topic: I understand this completely, and can explain it to others.
Enjoy
Paul
el-capitanDC wiring techniques and inventive ways of wiring for blocks, reverse loops etc.
I tried to talk about this one and got shut down by the moderators.
I have done extensive work in advanced cab control, interlocking signals, wireless DC simplified CTC and signaling for easy but prototypical operation. I can show you how to have one touch trunout route control and complete signal interlocking for DC or DCC. I can show an easy signal system that will look prototypical and actually help you run trains. I can show you how to wire seamless reverse loops in DC and how to build walk around control systems for simple to use wireless DC throttles. I can show you how to wire 90% of your layout at the workbench and then just "install" your turnout controls and signal system. But not on here.
Because I may self publish a book on the subject/subjects, and was honest about that fact when asked by a moderator, and dispite my willing to explain on here everything I am doing, I was told that my dicussions were "advertisements" and not allowed. EVEN though I don't have anything to sell right now, and have never made any pitch to sell anyone anything.
I am more than willing to share what I have learned/created with others, but, to do so in detail requires drawings, paper, website bandwidth, printing and the like. Non of which are free. While very comfortable, I am not independently wealthy. I cannot afford to "give" away in great numbers copies of my information. I do not have the computer skills/knowledge/time/resources/money to put it all on the web for free.
So, again, because I was honest about my possibly writing a book/article, owning the copyright on same, and possibly providing a circuit board I have developed to those interested, I was shut down.
YET, known hobby shop owners tought the virtures of DCC or this product or that product? Is that not just as much of an advertisement? Announcements are made about train shows by the same people who run them, is that not an advertisement? I personally have no problem with either example sighted above, but it seems to be a double standard.
AND, while I may not have approached every idea from the best direction at first, I was also heavily attacked by those who feel strongly about the expansion of the use of DCC. I was called a lot of names, accussed of a lot of stuff, by people who know nothing about me - but who would prefer that controlling trains with DC no long be promoted,, suggested, explored, or advanced - we should all use DCC.
So much for advanced descussion of actual "modeling" topics.
Just like my free rolling trucks, I was told why I was wrong, backward, stupid, and that NO other modeler could possibly want to do such a thing.
So, again this is why forum time for me is less and less.
As for "more advanced" forums, well I don't have the computer skills, time or typing skills for too much of this stuff. And keeping track of screen names, pass words, remembering how this works or that works on each site, etc, etc, is a quick to limit me from more than one or two forums.
Well the forum time clock has run out for today - see you tomorrow - maybe?
Sheldon
I think they've gone on to bigger and better things, for example Mr. Fugate and his E-zine....
My .02 on the subject....
Bob Berger, C.O.O. N-ovation & Northwestern R.R. My patio layout....SEE IT HERE
There's no place like ~/ ;)
At 9:43 am EST this morning, Brakie wrote this:
"How some love to over complicate the simple basic questions with their personal modeling styles and preferences while forgetting to answer a basic question with a old fashion basic answer which what the new modeler is asking...This applies for questions from intermediate modelers as well. "
And now, after answering a question honestly, I receive this response:
rayw46 The forum is not a school system with a fixed ciriculum, thus the posters, or students as a metaphore, decide what will be discussed by asking questions or making comments. If you think this fourm is, "dumbing down," everyone because the posters are not, "advanced," enough, then it seems it's up to you to start discussions of some of the things you mentioned because you are the only one who can control that. If you have, great; if you haven't, close this discussion and get busy; it will solve a lot of the complaints you and a lot the other posters have, and I'm saying that in a nice way as constructive criticism. Ray
Yoda once said "Difficult to see, the future is"
Not for you Brakie, not for you.
Thanks for the thread John. I to wondered how "advanced" was being defined by writers in the various threads. I think I've even used it myself to describe others. To me, it means a person who has in-depth knowledge of every aspect of model railroading, from cutting that compound angle for the open grid benchwork the right way the first time, to being able to recall what the proper SP light package should be for GP9 #2762 that ran the whatever Arizona branch in 1961.
I will probably never be that person. That's okay. I don't have the time to be that person. They may have an advantage on me. They may be a professional MRRer, a real or ex-real railroader, or fully retired from their job and have/had more time to spend accumalting knowledge about railroading from their everyday profession.
That doesn't mean I have to feel intimidated to join in any discussion or shouldn't prohibit anyone from joining any forum or taking up this hobby at all.
People come and go on this forum. So what. It seems like some folks look at envy at former members who "leave us in their dust" so to speak, wondering what pleasure we are missing out on that they are enjoying. I'm sure people come and go on those special interest forums too.
Knowing the deep details of any subject may just mean someone has a focused interest in one aspect of the hobby, and maybe no interest at all in another. Just because they move on to pursue that interest doesn't mean this is a lesser forum.
- Douglas
wm3798 On this forum, there's a thread about basic track planning questions right next to one about installing a decoder, next to one about dealing with your wife's complaints about the hobby. Because of the volume of traffic here, and the lack of any real focus in terms of content, things move along so rapidly that it's easy for a good topic to get buried pages deep in a matter of hours, while pointless nonsense like Beer Barn and Diner threads keep floating to the top with reports on the local weather. Lee
On this forum, there's a thread about basic track planning questions right next to one about installing a decoder, next to one about dealing with your wife's complaints about the hobby. Because of the volume of traffic here, and the lack of any real focus in terms of content, things move along so rapidly that it's easy for a good topic to get buried pages deep in a matter of hours, while pointless nonsense like Beer Barn and Diner threads keep floating to the top with reports on the local weather.
For the win.
He's right. While one man's crap is another man's thread, the focus here is... well... well, there is no focus. All the "good stuff" that I'm interested is buried deep inside a steady tidal wave off what to me is essentially noise.
Advanced? That's subjective. But I think Lee's right on point when he mentions in-depth threads about modeling. The technique itself need not be advanced... It's the discussion that needs to be advanced. In-depth, technique-oriented, full of open and honest critical assessment and free exchange of thought without fear of hurt feelings or bruised egos.
Such discourse has been absent from here for a very long time and I don't expect to see it return.
Modeling the Rio Grande Southern First District circa 1938-1946 in HOn3.