Declining Interest in Web Forums -- Part II. What to Do About it?
I read CNJ831's post: Declining Interest in Web Forums along with the numerous responses and have been thinking about the issues raised. In picking through the responses, including my own, I believe this is a reasonable summary of the possible reasons / reactions given (in no particular order):
-- Rudeness / Snippiness (Yes, it *is* a word! Look it up!)
People should be more civilized. (Yeah, we'll get right on that! )
Too many "Know-it-alls" (who don't)
"My way or the Highway" mentality
-- Search Issues / Information Availability (Did you try SEARCHING for it first !?!?)
-- "One-Time Problem" (One Post, One Answer, Hasta La Vista Baby!)
-- Boredom / Redundancy (Boy, I wish I had a nickel for every time this question was raised...)
"Tired of fighting the same old battles"
"Answering the same old questions"
"How many times do you need to see a wooden structure built?"
"Looking for variety of opinions and methods"
-- Lack of Advanced Topics / Loss of Advanced Practitioners (Nothing new here again today, yawn)
"Beginners all ask the same layout building questions"
"RTR quality questions"
"Wrong information stated as fact"
"Outgrown Forum"
-- Novelty Factor (Wow, a Model Railroad FORUM! Okay, can check that off.... next!)
Coincident with "Rise of Blogging"
Less stuff to pique interest
Lack of curiosity ("Many new railroaders never were exposed to building things as a child")
"Fewer Mentors" ("Decline of the local hobby shop", and the "graying of the hobby")
-- Seasonal Variations (Whoa! Check out the caboose on that one!)
-- Layout Completion Track (Who else besides me is in the track-laying phase??)
"Active in forum which caters to my needs and interests."
-- Economic Issues (Lost my job, life sucks, gotta cancel my Internet now, Ciao!)
-- Illusion (You're imagining things Bub, there is no decline.)
Steinjr posted statistics that suggest there is no decline in posts, and perhaps even a very tiny increase (though statistically below the noise level and thus irrelevant)
So Now What??
All-in-all there were some very insightful responses, I think, which of course raises the next logical question-- What to do about it (if anything)? I think its also important to note that not all of the responses / reactions were completely cut-n-dried such that they fit into only one specific category, so my distribution is only one interpretation. However, I think in general it represents a reasonable representation.
Combatting Rudeness
In considering the above, I also think that there is not much you can really do about the "Rudeness / Snippiness" issue as that's principally a social condition and probably can only realistically be dealt with socially. Maybe we can contact all their Mommies and see if we can have them sent to bed without supper... (No pudding for YOU young man! )
Perhaps members could be a little more reactive in denouncing anti-social behavior when they spot it. The problem I see with that though is that it trains everybody to be the 'social police' and pretty soon nobody can say nuthin' and get away with it, and everything degenerates into endless bickering. And where's the fun in that?
Economic Issues
I don't think there's much we can do about any "Economic Issues"-- though I suppose we could petition our hosts to reduce the Forum's Entrance Fee but I'm not sure how receptive they would be to that given that its already free...
Searching for Information
The "Search" issue though I think is well within "our" power (as a community) to address-- or at least improve-- and I strongly believe that it *is* a community problem. There are a number of directions this could take, including pointing people to "better" search tools; better categorization of key posts; and perhaps maintaining a more formalized "archive" of "Frequently Asked Questions" and answers-- perhaps as sub-forum topics.
I can personally attest to the "difficulty" of searching on this forum (and I'm pretty good at searching in general, anywhere else-- Google, for instance). IMO, searching on this forum is kind of a "fire-hose" problem-- you type in some keywords and get a gushing geyser in response-- and there seems to be very little ability to "pare it down" using additional search terms. So when trying to search to find "the answer", you instead often get drowned in a "sea of answers", which isn't really all that helpful either.
I could point out (and am in the process of doing so) that it *is* possible to use Google to search the MR forums, if you only know how. My guess is that most people either don't know how or else forget they can do it 99.99% of the time. The trick is to call up a google page and enter: "site:cs.trains.com prr k4" (for example) to narrow the search to *only* the Kalmbach forums (e.g. "cs.trains.com"), and then to look for "PRR" and "K4" within that site space-- that's what the "site:cs.trains.com" bit does for you. Note that you have to type that out exactly with the colon and *NO* spaces inbetween in order for it to work.
Additionally, Google has a lot of other search tricks you can use to further refine your results. For example, you can use the "OR" operator to look for two things: (e.g. This OR That). The "OR" *must* be stated in upper-case (according to Google's directions). The MR search automatically assumes "OR" and (to the best of my knowledge) does not support an "AND" condition but rather assumes each keyword is joined with an "OR". Google, on the other hand *does* assume "AND" for multiple keywords and you don't even need to specify it. On Google you can also utilize a "NOT" condition (to remove something from the results) using the "-" (dash) operator. So you can say "This OR That -Those" to eliminate all results that contain "Those". You can do more complex searches with Google as well.
Here is a link to the Google help page for searching:
Google Search Basics
Here is a more general link to help with Google searches in general:
Google Search Help
And here is a link to different types of Google searches you can perform to help ferret-out different types of information:
Google Searches
But better search tools are only one aspect of the problem, another aspect is how to improve the "findability" of information within the overall data corpus (posts) being searched? Some of the requisite features are already available within this site's software ability-- the ability to add "keywords" to posts, either by the original poster, or else subsequently by any reader or moderator (or even the OP him/herself at a later date). Adding keywords, if even a few-- or just one or two-- would go a long way toward improving the ability to search on and find information buried someplace within the site.
I would like to speak directly to those that would extol every questioner to "go search"...
It is not really fair of you to say that-- particularly to a novice user, someone who may not even know the right "keywords" to use or topics to search under-- if *YOU* yourselves don't likewise use the "keyword" feature to add keywords to your posts and topics.
It may be when you went searching there wasn't as much stuff to search through and thus you had less difficulty finding answers. It may also be that you "asked around a bit" and forgot that you did so, and that other people helped you or pointed you to information. You may have arrived at this site already knowing-- good for you-- but not everybody does.
So-- and this is *MY* opinion-- if you're going to tell people to "go search", you oughta *also* be using the site's "keyword" feature to make it *possible* to search.
Next, I would like to SUGGEST (very nicely! to the moderators and other users of this site-- including ME, myself)
Would you please consider doing your fellow MR's a favor and add some keywords to posts when you see them and think about it? It only takes a second and it would help people who come along after to have a better shot at finding information and not bothering you with unnecessary questions.
I myself am guilty of not doing this also. Both with my own posts, and with posts I come across. It would be very easy for me to add "DCC" if its a DCC-related post, or "NCE" if that's being discussed. Or "EMD" if they're talking about that specific brand of diesel, and so on. And that would make it a lot easier for people later on to find information. And I don't do that very often
And to the moderators-- I know you all have *plenty* of stuff to do already, but if you happen to come across a post and have an extra second, why not add a keyword or two? Surely that would be as big a benefit to the site as spanking recalcitrant users and shuffling posts off into the ether...???
To whomever writes and/or maintains this Site or site code...
Why not add a "Tag Cloud"-- or more correctly, why not put it back? I know it can get unweildy but its also a very good and useful tool for finding information. The big problem with "Tag Clouds", and keywords in general, is maintaining them properly. Just like anything else, if everyone can add them willy-nilly its going to get out-of-hand very quickly. And yet, whom else is available and/or willing to create the tags (keywords) except for the users? So in addition to being able to ADD tags (keywords), there needs to also be a method to EDIT, REMOVE, or CONSOLIDATE them as well. Not everybody here is the swiftest SPELLRE so it would probably be a good thing to let other people come along and quietly edit the tags. Also not everybody is aware of every topic or subject so there's probably a lot of duplication and crossover in the tags-- some of that can't be helped. But some of it can. So a method to consolidate the tags would be very helpful. That way someone can say "This tag" and "that tag" are essentially the same-- combine them as "some tag name", and the software would take care of updating all the old tags.
Another suggestion for the site maintainer / code writer:
Why not make it so that tags (and tag clouds)act like "Russian Dolls". When you're at a high-level (top-level, selecting topics in a forum for example) your tag cloud is populated with the most popular / numerous tags. Then as you drill-down into a tag stack, each successive layer is more and more specific with respect to the tags contained within that stack. That would make it a lot easier for people to simply "Drill-Down" for information in addition to using more formalized "search" methods. Any modern database can perform those types of keyword searches effortlessly. Especially since you *already have them available* and pre-indexed. Plus there can't possibly be more than a few hundred tags out there (so far) but even if it were hundreds of thousands, that's piddling work for a modern beefy database-- heck, even MySQL could do it...
Setting Up Frequently Asked Questions and Post Archives
I don't know how hard this would be to do-- politically anyway (technically its a snap)-- but why not set up an area within the MRR forum space to push posts that everybody would pretty much agree are "Frequently-Asked Questions". Then it would be a lot easier for searchers to just go there and see if there are already posts that can answer their questions? And if you include entire post chains into the archive, then they can read through the post chain(s) and perhaps gain additional information or insight, or clarification, and thus keep them from cluttering up the main forums with the same questions?
And, to that I would add / suggest-- that you don't move posts / post-chains in there exclusively, thus ripping them out of the fabric and context of their original forum location, but rather put a LINK to the post / post-chain so that it can continue to grow, be commented-on, refined, clarified, new information added, etc. *AND* it can be found via the FAQ Forum-Tree index. (The layout of the FAQ forum acts as its own index). The reason I would suggest this is because there are forums where LOTS of people go to read and post, and there are forums where you can go to seek solitude. Moving a post/post-chain into one of those forum locations would be the kiss of death.
Once the oldsters had kicked the topic around for awhile and decided it needs to get archived-- it'll be off their radar and they will probably never go seek it out again to see if anybody else has posted in it. Sure they might get an email-- and they'll probably ignore it. If the post / post-chain stays rooted to its original forum, then whenever anything new gets added to it, everybody will see it and have a new opportunity to comment on it. And at the same time, new users will also be able to see that it probably has their question answered-- so its win-win for everyone.
Boredom / Redundancy / Advanced Topics / Advanced Practitioners
Maybe some of these previous suggestions would help alleviate the boredom and redundancy problems too, by relieving the pressure on the "oldsters" to sit around and help "newbies" all the time. They could get on with talking about more advanced stuff like the "Simulated Air Pressure in the Train Line at HO Scale", or "Does 1:87.1 Scale Paint Dry Faster than 1:1 scale paint?", or whatever other lofty and rarefied things they talk about amongst themselves...
The "One-Time" Problem / Novelty Factor / Seasonal Variations
I don't see any real good way to combat this issue except by doing our darndest to make this a great place to come and hang out. Beyond that-- we probably don't want them around anyways
As for the "seasonal variations" issue-- I'd say we can give them a few weeks off for good behavior. There are, afterall, other things in the world besides trains (GASP!) I know, its true though-- I had to go look and see it for myself to believe it! There's trams, trollies, inclines, cable cars, transit lines, monorails, roller coasters, log flumes.... who knew???
The "Layout Completion Track"
This one is very interesting, I think. A lot of people come here-- perhaps without realizing it-- in hopes of finding people who have solved or are solving the problems that they themselves are facing. In one way that seems obvious (and covered by the "Search & Information" section). But in another way it suggests something very profound and *non* obvious about people and the way they use (or would like to use) this site (and probably others).
While not out-and-out announcing it perhaps, I think many folks are looking for "mentors" and "friends" (albeit online if necessary) to guide them along and be their buddy / coach / guide / mentor / etc. as they progress along either in the hobby "in general" or else in building a layout or a model or some similar endeveor specifically.
That kind of "old guy" / "new guy" relationship goes back a long ways-- centuries and way beyond-- as a way of learning, training, testing, etc. And its only natural that people would seek out those types of relationships online, even if they can't ever progress into the direct face-to-face type of interaction. The Internet and forums and such are still "very new" in the grand scheme of things, but people and their relationships are "very old" and following long-established rituals and protocols in this regard.
And yet at the same time, the Internet is *also* viewed by many of us to be a "solitary activity", or at least one with only distant and remote interactions for the most part. You sit down and interact only to the degree necessary to achieve your goal-- find information, email a picture, write a post, whatever-- and then you "turn it off" with the unstated expectation that it all "goes away" when you're not looking. In this respect we are all just "bits on the screen" that form in interesting ways but have no real corporeal existance-- we just exist "out there" someplace in the ether.
Of course, some folks have met in real life and know each other. So for them its a slightly different experience, an opportunity to interact with their real-world friends and acquaintances in another (online) medium. But still, when they are interacting with people they *don't* know and haven't met-- there is still the "discorporeal" and "disconnected" sense about them... Especially when ready to shut the computer off.
And of course that doesn't just happen in MR forums-- it happens in all types of forums. Particularly where, in a traditional setting, those same people would be sitting (standing / whatever) in the same room conversing and interacting face-to-face. People just haven't formulated all of the new "social rules" yet and are still working stuff like that out. I think the idea of a "Layout Completion Track" is pretty cool.
So anyway, that's really all I wanted to say about-- offer some suggestions and ideas about how it could be improved and maybe turn it into some even more fun for all of us.
What do you think?
John
YIKES!
Give me a day or two to read/digest your post and see if I have anything of remote importance to add/subtract/divide/multiply that will amount ot a hill of beans to this post!
It took me three days to formulate what I wanted to say on the OP preceeding this one.
You have several valid points,and I am sure I have one or two to profer here,as will others.
We can analyze this to death but:
* there will still be know-nothing novices
* there will still be "everything" {I know best] know-it all eperienced
* there will be the young and old
* there will be those who used to "play with trains" as a kid now 20-30 yrs later returning to a whole new ball of wax
I am sure I could have more to say. but for now....can't we all just get along and enjoy what we enjoy about the forum and forgive the rest?
How to make it better...?
Well I mentioned one thing that you seem to have mentioned also....a "FAQ"s section- "frequently asked questions" section that may allow the newbies to search for answers
Give me more time I may have more to say on "UPgrading" {making it better} the forum...if only the moderators and the bosses would look at. I'm interested to see what others say!
If "google it" solved all our problems, then there would be no reason for this or other forums to exist. I admit to finding lots of things on google and finding the right things, but how secure/safe/acurate is the info? "GIGO" Garbage In Garbage Out.
Have a great day!
-G .
Just my thoughts, ideas, opinions and experiences. Others may vary.
HO and N Scale.
After long and careful thought, they have convinced me. I have come to the conclusion that they are right. The aliens did it.
galaxyYIKES! Give me a day or two to read/digest your post and see if I have anything of remote importance to add/subtract/divide/multiply that will amount ot a hill of beans to this post! It took me three days to formulate what I wanted to say on the OP preceeding this one.
Actually its amusing because right after I finished this one I went back to see if there were any new responses to the previous one and saw your post and was thinking "Dang! He said what I said!" We must have been busy posting at the same time-- you know what they say about great minds being alike and all that? ...Okay. Well, forget that part. They were probably only joking anyway.
And I'm definitely *not* trying to knock the site in any way shape or form-- in fact I like it here very much and my only thought is "So now that everything is out there on the table, what can we do to improve it and make it better for everybody?"
you know , i have mostly given up on asking anything, mostly i get some wisenhymeer who tells me what a dummy i am or i no reponses. now if posted , Did you hide any easter eggs on your layout . well people would respond , and thats totally ok, just saying when i need some info , this forum is not the best way to go..
mokenarr you know , i have mostly given up on asking anything, mostly i get some wisenhymeer who tells me what a dummy i am or i no reponses. now if posted , Did you hide any easter eggs on your layout . well people would respond , and thats totally ok, just saying when i need some info , this forum is not the best way to go..
Aw, easter eggs on the layout are one thing, but don't give up on this forum. THere is a wealth of info here and a ton of experience. It's all about how one chooses to express answers to legit questions. and forget the rest.
Even the "older wiser" patrons have been known to post a "duh" question, or get "DUH" ansers to their problems. Take the good answers as gold, and blow off the rest.
* By the way you could have "googled this"*....lol only joking!
Glory, finaly some who not only sees the problem but actually gives suggestions on how to resolve them. I was about to reply to the other Post myself but you seem yo have hit all the issues and your suggestions are on the mark.
If your kid had a question would you send them to the Net to "look it up"?. No, we need to guide the Newbeis like they were our kids or how we would like our kids guided.
If someone is rude to you do you just take it? No, you give you side or simply walk away. ( Don't answer the Post!)
Yes this may all sound like Pleasentville, but if we don't tak the time to do it the Hobby may be at a perile.
John,I think for a basic modeling forum we do well.
My thoughts-oh,oh.
Rudeness / Snippiness
Sorry,but,I have notice this on several forums.Its up to the moderators to draw a line and take action when that line is cross.
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Ah yes the forum experts and experts wannabes you find 'em on every forum..Some actually make sense.
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"My way or the Highway" mentality.
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What can I say? Some just believe they have the best answers to a simple hobby.
Reaction to "Snippiness", Sharp, or Direct (Blunt) Comments
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The printed word can be misinterpreted and such issues should be left in the hands of the moderators.It would be best to report a reply and let the mods make a decision and they must remember where there is no rule infraction there is no foul..
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"Economic Issues"
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I think the current economy gets blame for everything from the JFK assassination to the sinking of the Edmond Fitzgerald and beyond..I just don't see that locally and we have 15% unemployment.Every time I go shopping in Marion or Mansfield the stores are crowded..Folks are still buying,planing vacations,going fishing etc.I think there is a lot of media hype.
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At any rate the forum has calm down to what it use to be thanks to the moderators...Time was I couldn't post without being flamed by 3 different members because I gave a different view or answers based on my first hand experiences or what I've seen.Of course there was others that was ripped as well during those dark days of little moderation..
There is nothing wrong with a discussion that involves different views as long as it stays civilize...All to sadly many sees these discussions as anything but what they are-a open discussion.
As far as searching the forum or Internet..All to sadly I fully believe some may want it done for 'em or perhaps they are afraid of getting a virus.Either way many questions can be answered with a simple google search.
That's all for now.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Apart from encouraging all who enter to be active, and not just in reading or responding, but to providing private, and if absolutely necessary, public, feedback when others' behaviours impact apparently negatively on the forum, I don't see that much should change. By the way, positive feedback ought always to be welcomed, too. Some members are exceptional at helping.
This is like a buffet, and the buffet contains what is placed out for consumption. Part of that is provided by the flavour of our Hosts and their Magazine, but each of us brings 'something'. It's a take-it-or-leave-it proposition. Leave question or an observation/tip, or take one of those. Same for opinions, which in this hobby are multiplied with a factor of n to the n-1 (means 'like, forever..." in mathematical terms).
It's a public access forum, and the public paints the place with the palette that appeals most to them. When that runs at odds with the ideal our Hosts provide in the rules, we mods do what we can, and when we run across them or are apprised of them. People rub each other the wrong way, and it sometimes comes across in sharp and hurtful words.
The magazine is for beginners mostly, so it should not come as a surprise that we see so many 'basic' questions. With some patience and good will all around, they will continue to appear and be answered. Then, as many of us do, we find a place that is a better match for our current 'maturity' in the hobby when we feel the disparity is sufficiently great that we should move on. I am not there yet, although I have a commitment in other ways. Thankfully, we have many long-timers who are like comfortable old uncles who have bags of experience to share, and they do it consistently and with good humour and wisdom.
Kudos to those who keep giving and taking less as time goes on.
-Crandell
galaxymokenarr you know , i have mostly given up on asking anything, mostly i get some wisenhymeer who tells me what a dummy i am or i no reponses. now if posted , Did you hide any easter eggs on your layout . well people would respond , and thats totally ok, just saying when i need some info , this forum is not the best way to go.. Aw, easter eggs on the layout are one thing, but don't give up on this forum. THere is a wealth of info here and a ton of experience. It's all about how one chooses to express answers to legit questions. and forget the rest. Even the "older wiser" patrons have been known to post a "duh" question, or get "DUH" ansers to their problems. Take the good answers as gold, and blow off the rest. * By the way you could have "googled this"*....lol only joking!
yeah i know , maybe we need two general forums , one for techincal info and one for just shooting the breeze... as with the rest of the world there are real people and there are those caught up in themselfs... (nice phrase for jerks).. opps , spelled themselves wrong...
It seems to me that most of the reasons given have been true for quite awhile. I think we need a longer time period to see if there really is a drop off or just normal fluctuation.
But I do agree that we could all work at being more polite/respectful with others, have more patience with the new folks, have more tolerance, take offense less easily, etc.
Enjoy
Paul
A big forum draw is well illustrated posts showing the construction of something, rolling stock, structures, bench work, back drops, control panels, trees, mountains, whatever. All it takes is a point&shoot and considerable time. A post as informative and as well illustrated as a magazine article isn't beyond the capabilities of some of us. So this is a plea to all of us to take the time and effort to post more illustrated "how to" posts.
Another plea. Try the search feature before asking a question. There are a lot of really good posts on nearly everything and search often brings them up. Instant gratification.
Search works of the title of the posts (I think). Titles like "Newbie needs help" don't improve the search results much. Could it become possible, or is it possible now, to edit the titles of a post to something more informative. Could one edit a title without giving offense to the original poster?
Finally a FAQ would be wonderful if someone had the time and energy to create and maintain one. Perhaps an auto FAQ builder feature? Allow us readers to mark posts worthy of inclusion in the FAQ, and when a post accumulates say 35 votes, it goes into the FAQ?
David Starr www.newsnorthwoods.blogspot.com
jwhittenCombatting RudenessIn considering the above, I also think that there is not much you can really do about the "Rudeness / Snippiness" issue as that's principally a social condition and probably can only realistically be dealt with socially. Maybe we can contact all their Mommies and see if we can have them sent to bed without supper... (No pudding for YOU young man! ) Perhaps members could be a little more reactive in denouncing anti-social behavior when they spot it. The problem I see with that though is that it trains everybody to be the 'social police' and pretty soon nobody can say nuthin' and get away with it, and everything degenerates into endless bickering. And where's the fun in that?
Actually, it's because members are "reactive in denouncing anti-social behavior when they spot it" that enables bad behavior to continue and often spins a topic into a tit-for-tat exchange and then lock down.
I would suggest the opposite approach. Ignore bad behavior. Don't reply to it. Trouble makers love the attention, so don't give it to them. Instead, hit the "report abuse" button and bring it to the attention of the moderators. Let them handle the situation. It's their job.
"Reaction to "Snippiness", Sharp, or Direct (Blunt) Comments "
I actually think we need to be more blunt on here. Too often somebody posts a pic of something......"sub par" to put it mildly and people respond with "nice job" and "that looks great". No it doesn't. It looks like crap and you know it. If you don't want to be blunt or honest, then don't post. Some of the people posting these remind me of my reaction to my daughter when she brought home a sculpture from Kindergarten and I had to pretend I knew what it was just to not hurt her feelings. I'm still not sure what it was, either a horse or an ash tray.
I also think the forum should allow profanity. Nothing livens up a MR converstion like a few Fbombs thrown in there. Just a thought.
Check out the Deming Sub by clicking on the pics:
dstarr Another plea. Try the search feature before asking a question. There are a lot of really good posts on nearly everything and search often brings them up. Instant gratification.
Dstarr, I am with John about our search engine, it could suck rust off steel rails!
First thing it is hard to find!
Second, I used it last week. I wanted to look up some links to dirt roads. It pulled up something like 60 pages. Any topic that either had Dirt or Roads in the posting. Not just Dirt Roads. No wonder we see the same questions asked over and over.
Far as new people, I do like the one time posters. I like to see if we had the right answer to there problem. But, I like helping new people! It is my favorite part of the site. I will all so take the less than purest approach when it called for if conventional things do not work.
Far as the trolls, I don't think that is why the postings are down. Does not help, but a troll or 2 will not stop most people.
Slow economy might. Lets faces it, this is not a cheap hobby. (cheaper than my last one) But, it could be stopping new people from starting or going past there first starter set. With the Athearn BB kits being a thing of the past, a new car is $11.00 to $19.00? Sure slowed me down in buying.
Time to shut up and run some trains Ken
I hate Rust
FAQ sections are a very good idea. However even though just about everything I have learned on this journey back into this hobby in the last five years has come off this forum. I didn't and don't need to post questions about a lot of things I wanted answers or suggestions for. I did it because I wanted the interaction with fellow modelers. "Chit Chatting" back and fourth is like being at a club meeting. Sure we discuss the same old things over and over. However I can sit here with my glass or two of "fine white" yak a bit, enjoy myself immensely and the drive home is just the right distance. Once or twice I have hit the high posters for the day column just talking on one thread.
In short, if you want interaction read and post. If you don't "search"
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
I am one of those newbies that needs help, and if I didn't get help from this forum, I would be completely lost with my new layout.
Sure I recieved some "constructive critisism" but I understand that when you experienced guys tell me I did something wrong and need to re-think my plans, I know it's for my own good, to keep me interested in the hobby.
Just have to weed out the rude people, which I do, and focus on the guys who are very friendly and give me detailed information.
We newbies need hand holding, yes indeed, but now all the information, help, suggestions, etc. from these forums over the last 4 months, I feel I have grown immensley, and my interest in the hobby has grown ten fold. Heck, I have even started answering other newbies questions!
But I just think the main reason why interest is down is because of spring time. After a long cold winter people just want to get out of the house.
I really do appreciate all the help.
Michael
CEO- Mile-HI-RailroadPrototype: D&RGW Moffat Line 1989
Hi,
New to the forums in the sense that I never signed up for a profile. I have been what you would call a lurker. I have been doing this off and on for a few years now. I never signed up for a profile. I just wanted to come to the forums to read and look at pictures.
I have loved trains for as long as I can remember. I am sure my grandfather working for the Pennsylvania Railroad (I believe) had a lot to do with it.
So far the only layout (I use the word layout very loosely) I ever had was the track that came with the set I received and cardboard boxes I drew windows and doors on. For those who live in the mid west, one of my "buildings" was a box that "White Castle" used to come in that looked like the restaurant! My cars where "Hot Wheels"!
I am a beginner in every sense of the word. I am at a point in my life where I finally have some space and some extra money to finally start building my first real layout. My wife has been very supportive of this in fact she bought my first subscription to MR for my birthday! I plan on building an around the wall layout. I plan on building it in 2 foot by 4 foot sections. Large enough to get a start and small enough to stay out of trouble.
Just last week I got some scrap pieces of poster board, some of the old brass track I had and ballasted for the first time ever. Was it as good as what I have seen at Train Shows or in the pages of MR? Of course not but considering I had never done it before, I thought it was pretty decent. I have done a few more test tracks and each time I have gotten a little better at it.
As you can see and I freely admit I am very much a beginner. There are two reasons I never posted before.
1 The feeling that beginners are tolerated but not really welcome here, which I have got that impression a few times.
2 Intimidation. When you are new at something and you see the really great work that some people have posted pictures of you are understandably hesitant to post anything.You do not want to come across as a complete beginner even if you are one. In a lot of ways the two reasons I listed go hand in hand.
I ask that you try and give the beginners some slack if they tend to ask questions over and over again. When or if it starts to get really annoying ask yourself which would you rather have, sometimes answering the same types of questions and getting new blood in the hobby, or driving them away? New modelers can only be good for everyone in the long run.
Sorry for the long post.
BigRed79 As you can see and I freely admit I am very much a beginner. There are two reasons I never posted before. 1 The feeling that beginners are tolerated but not really welcome here, which I have got that impression a few times. 2 Intimidation. When you are new at something and you see the really great work that some people have posted pictures of you are understandably hesitant to post anything.You do not want to come across as a complete beginner even if you are one. In a lot of ways the two reasons I listed go hand in hand. I ask that you try and give the beginners some slack if they tend to ask questions over and over again. When or if it starts to get really annoying ask yourself which would you rather have, sometimes answering the same types of questions and getting new blood in the hobby, or driving them away? New modelers can only be good for everyone in the long run. Sorry for the long post.
Big Red, I thank you for your important message. You have said volumes. It will mean a lot to many people, I hope, and encourage them to post away, even if they get some cold shoulders. It's just the way the world turns. Take what you can get, go use it to advantage, learn your own way ahead, and then please come back and share your experiences. Most of us find tricks and new ways of doing things that are worth sharing.
But do, please, feel welcome and someone with as much value as any other poster, no matter how many posts in his/her count, or how good the photos may be. None of us was born with a spoon in his mouth or with a DCC system hooked up. I have never wired a selector, but it is my user-name. I couldn't point one out to you in a line-up of six electronic gadgets.
Thanks so much for taking the time to register and post. I would love to see you develop a profile over the next few months.
selectorBig Red, I thank you for your important message. You have said volumes. It will mean a lot to many people, I hope, and encourage them to post away, even if they get some cold shoulders. It's just the way the world turns. Take what you can get, go use it to advantage, learn your own way ahead, and then please come back and share your experiences. But do, please, feel welcome and someone with as much value as any other poster, no matter how many posts in his/her count, or how good the photos may be. None of us was born with a spoon in his mouth or with a DCC system hooked up. I have never wired a selector, but it is my user-name. I couldn't point one out to you in a line-up of six electronic gadgets.
Big Red, I thank you for your important message. You have said volumes. It will mean a lot to many people, I hope, and encourage them to post away, even if they get some cold shoulders. It's just the way the world turns. Take what you can get, go use it to advantage, learn your own way ahead, and then please come back and share your experiences.
Big Red! Welcome to the forum officially! I know you will find the great majority of us eager to help you on your journey.
May I be the first to say come over and join us for lunch in the diner. Feel free to chat and share with us what you are now doing in the hobby!
Oh! And Crandell, well said, as always!
73
Ray Seneca Lake, Ontario, and Western R.R. (S.L.O.&W.) in HO
We'll get there sooner or later!
cudakendstarr Another plea. Try the search feature before asking a question. There are a lot of really good posts on nearly everything and search often brings them up. Instant gratification. Dstarr, I am with John about our search engine, it could suck rust off steel rails! First thing it is hard to find! Second, I used it last week. I wanted to look up some links to dirt roads. It pulled up something like 60 pages. Any topic that either had Dirt or Roads in the posting. Not just Dirt Roads. No wonder we see the same questions asked over and over.
I gotta admit, I haven't used the search function enough to know it well. It shows up on the main page, perhaps not prominent enough, but at least it isn't buried deep inside menus. It SHOULD allow dirt AND road to get a hit on anything with both words in it. Dirt OR road should get a hit on one or the other, and "dirt road" only gets a hit on the exact match. I don't know if this works right or not.
The thing is, after you have entered an eloquent post on some-thing-or-other, you lack the energy to re enter eloquent post a few weeks later when the same question is posed again. I suppose the proper answer is for us eloquent posters to do the search and pass a link to the eloquent post as a reply.
Why is declining interest in web forums an issue that needs to be addressed?
I, for one, would be more concerned with interest in actual model railroading than with interest train forums. But then again, I get the impression that for some, the forum is the hobby.
Just my take, anyway.
Modeling the Rio Grande Southern First District circa 1938-1946 in HOn3.
jwhitten I would like to speak directly to those that would extol every questioner to "go search"... It is not really fair of you to say that-- particularly to a novice user, someone who may not even know the right "keywords" to use or topics to search under-- if *YOU* yourselves don't likewise use the "keyword" feature to add keywords to your posts and topics. It may be when you went searching there wasn't as much stuff to search through and thus you had less difficulty finding answers. It may also be that you "asked around a bit" and forgot that you did so, and that other people helped you or pointed you to information. You may have arrived at this site already knowing-- good for you-- but not everybody does. So-- and this is *MY* opinion-- if you're going to tell people to "go search", you oughta *also* be using the site's "keyword" feature to make it *possible* to search.
Geeeesh.
First let me say that there are two different types of requests.
One is common, basic information :
What is an 0-4-0?
What is ethyl mercapitan used for?
The other is more complicated questions involving processes and experiential information:
How do you apply ballast?
What is the difference between marker lights and classification lights?
I have a probelm with the first type of question and THOSE are the ones I tell (and will continue to tell) people to Google. I think in many cases that the really basic requests are fundamentally selfish. I fully understand not being able to find certain information on the internet. I model 1900-1905 so I have to spend a lot of research time to find some things out (and amazingly there is a lot of information that's easy to find). I get ticked off at people who ask a generic question or multiple generic questions that can easily be answered with a simple search. For example if you ask what ethyl mercapitan is used for, I probably won't answer that question because if the poster would do a simple search, they would get more information from more sources than I would ever want to waste my time retyping into a post. I suspect that many of those really simple questions are because the person does want to "waste" their time evaluating the answers they get back, its too much trouble to spend the 15 minutes to read 3 or 4 links to see if they have the answer. It is much easier to ask the forum and let somebody else "waste" their time to do the search, evaluate the responses and then summarize it and spoon-feed it back to the OP. Sorry, if its a generic question and can be answered with a simple search, I'm going to suggest they do that. The internet is a tool, but only if they use it. If they have a circular saw, but never actually cut anything, then having a saw didn't do them any good. As I have said many times, if you ask a question you ONLY get that question answered. If you go looking for an answer you get dozens of questions answered, some of which you never even thought to ask. I have found out as much information looking for other things as I did looking for the things themselves. If the OP has done a search and has done due diligence to answer the question themselves or its a complicated or experiential question, then I have no problem helping them with the answer. I have spent hours rooting through old magazines and photos, photocopying maps and diagrams from my files, drawing sketches of areas, reading rule books, have mailed copies of documents at my own expense and have even spent afternoons taking pictures for people from other countries who can't see stuff for themselves. No problem, glad to help.I have also gotten a lot of flak on various forums for correcting people's spelling. News flash, it you don't spell the words properly you won't be able to search for answers. if you want to find out about the steps on the corners of a freight car and you search for "stearup steps" or "seal steps" you aren't going to find answers, but if you search for "stirrup steps" or "sill steps" you will get lots of info. Spelling counts. If you can't spell the keywords then all the keywords and clouds and whatever won't help.Another pet peeve is when somebody asks how a railroad does something, I do the research and give them an answer, then are bombarded by 20 posts telling the OP not to do it that way, criticizing me for telling him what to do, or giving dozens of one off, inapplicable, single example exceptions (which may be wrong to boot) when my answer may be what happens 99.99% of the time. The guy asked a question, I gave an answer. I really don't need 2 pages of people telling me how I shouldn't be telling him what to do when all I was doing was answering his question.I have 45 years of modeling experience and 30 years of prototype experience, but because of all the ego strokers, I answer way fewer messages now than I did a year ago.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Been reading both threads and thought I would weigh in.
As far as this forum being a basic forum and that more so called advanced modelers move on, well, okay. People come and go. I am happy with this forum. My skills and overall knowledge, compared to others, is something above a beginner, and that's fine. I will stay at that level for a long time, and it doesn't make me feel like a second class modeler. A newbie should realize that forum members are not trying to make them feel like one either, despite the apparent tone of some comments. If they lurk long enough before joining, they should be fine.
As far as rudeness: I think most members and lurkers are mature enough to understand that the people behind the words are probably just as harmless as they are, its just that written expression is sometimes harder to make clear. Short responses can sound rude. Sarcasm is even tougher to successfully pull off without sounding like a jerk sometimes. Oftentimes I find the arguments between forum members rather entertaining. I'm sure others do, and I can't imagine that those kinds of comments really drive people away.
Reminds me of a salty ex-railroader I was talking to a while ago. He must have been the son of an ex-marine, ex-boxer, who himself must have been a sailor before he was a railroader. You know, the kind of guy who uses three curse words in every other sentence to explain anything. At first, I was startled at his language, then scared, then I tried to sheepishly find away to remove myself from the conversation. After a bit, when I realized this is just the way he normally spoke, I couldn't stop laughing.
I think the weather and the increased choices provided by other forums, accounts for the slight decline in posting activity, as well as the repetitive nature of some of the topics.
Heck, the solving of the P2K gear issue over the years alone probably accounts for 25% of the drop in posts.
- Douglas
howmusselectorBig Red, I thank you for your important message. You have said volumes. It will mean a lot to many people, I hope, and encourage them to post away, even if they get some cold shoulders. It's just the way the world turns. Take what you can get, go use it to advantage, learn your own way ahead, and then please come back and share your experiences. But do, please, feel welcome and someone with as much value as any other poster, no matter how many posts in his/her count, or how good the photos may be. None of us was born with a spoon in his mouth or with a DCC system hooked up. I have never wired a selector, but it is my user-name. I couldn't point one out to you in a line-up of six electronic gadgets. Big Red! Welcome to the forum officially! I know you will find the great majority of us eager to help you on your journey. May I be the first to say come over and join us for lunch in the diner. Feel free to chat and share with us what you are now doing in the hobby!Oh! And Crandell, well said, as always! 73
Thanks guys, I look forward to contributing more in the future.
jwhittenBut better search tools are only one aspect of the problem, another aspect is how to improve the "findability" of information within the overall data corpus (posts) being searched? Some of the requisite features are already available within this site's software ability-- the ability to add "keywords" to posts, ...Why not add a "Tag Cloud"-- or more correctly, why not put it back? I know it can get unweildy but its also a very good and useful tool for finding information. The big problem with "Tag Clouds", and keywords in general, is maintaining them properly. Just like anything else, if everyone can add them willy-nilly its going to get out-of-hand very quickly.
Why not add a "Tag Cloud"-- or more correctly, why not put it back? I know it can get unweildy but its also a very good and useful tool for finding information. The big problem with "Tag Clouds", and keywords in general, is maintaining them properly. Just like anything else, if everyone can add them willy-nilly its going to get out-of-hand very quickly.
cudakenDstarr, I am with John about our search engine, it could suck rust off steel rails! First thing it is hard to find!
Right side of screen - under the label "Search Community". Not very hard to find.
Search term: Dirt AND Road
Search term: "dirt road"
Or click on "more options" on the search page and enter Dirt Road in the box that says "find all words"
To successfully find stuff doing a database search on a computer (not just here), it helps to:
a) Be able to spell search keywords right (not a problem in this case) b) Understand search string truncation or wildcard use (e.g search term "road" vs "roads") c) Understand the difference between "dirt road" / dirt OR road / dirt AND road
Searching in the MR general forum for dirt road: 22 721 hits Searching in the general MR forum, for dirt AND road: 471 hits Searching in the general MR forum, for "dirt road" : 148 hits
First search finds posts that contain either the word dirt OR the word road. Second search finds posts that contains both words, but not necessarily next to each other Third search looks for the phrase "dirt road"
Second hit in last search is "Make a dirt road". Third is "What's the best way of making a dirt road?".
Searching is a skill, like wiring, landscaping, ballasting, weathering or what not.
If you can't make a good solder joint yet, it isn't necessarily because your soldering iron sucks - it could also be because you have not learned yet how to use the tool correctly and efficiently.
And yeah - I agree that the user interface of the search engine certainly could be made more intuitive.
Smile, Stein
I have found the search function to work well. It should probably have a different name, though, and be up in the top banner like it is on the huge majority of commercial sites.
GARYIGIf your kid had a question would you send them to the Net to "look it up"?. No, we need to guide the Newbeis like they were our kids or how we would like our kids guided.
Actually you bring up a very good and subtle point-- even if you don't know you did...
"Newbies" and novices *are* like children in some ways, particularly in their need and desire to learn and know more. And I can only perceive it as a good thing if the people with more knowledge and skills can sometimes take a moment and help them out with pointers and tips, and maybe answer a question or two. As you said, it only serves to help everyone in the long run by introducing and welcoming new people into the hobby.
But the flip side to that is that, except for a few, most of the "newbies" and novices are *NOT* children, nor even necessarily new to the Internet, forums, posting, etc.-- and certainly not to social interactions in general. And its important to keep that in mind when reading their posts, answering their questions, and so forth that they are not treated like children-- treated with kindness, Yes. Treated like children, No.
Its sometimes difficult to separate someone asking "newbie" / novice questions from their age and experience in other (unseen / unknown) areas of life. We only get one aspect of that particular person, epecially in the beginning. They can sign up anytime they like and call themselves whatever they want. We have only their word for who they are-- or are *really*.
selectorThe magazine is for beginners mostly, so it should not come as a surprise that we see so many 'basic' questions.
So what other magaz--er, resources are there out there for people who have progressed to 'Intermediate' or 'Advanced' ? A lot of the ones I'm familiar with have gone the way of the Dodo.
Shifting the topic slightly... why isn't there a more comprehensive list of hobby resources on the site here someplace? It seems like every time someone mentions anything else, it gets 'scrubbed' by the hosts (Kalmbach). I understand that they are in business, but you can't also deny the reality of the world-- that there *are* other resources out there-- and frankly, in my own view, I would be considerably more impressed by a company that understood that and put it out there to help educate and empower people instead of rushing to erase and censor it every time it pops up.
In my mind, its the difference between what makes someone, or a company, "really classy" versus being just "another joe out hustling for a buck"... (er, no pun intended)
Model Railroader is an institution-- its been around for nearly 100 years. Its hard to argue with that kind of history and pedigree. They have both a depth and breadth of knowledge about the hobby that nearly any other resource can only dream about-- in their *wildest* dreams. They are a clear, demonstrated leader in both the industry and the hobby. They have both led and faithfully reported on its growth since nearly its inception! What do they have to be afraid of?
This thing with Joe Fugate, for instance-- I don't recall if it was you or someone else-- that talked about how his URL disappeared every time it was mentioned-- WHY do that !?!?! That's cheap and petty. All you have to do is go to Google and type in "Joe Fugate" and you're there in the first result! They don't do that when people mention RMC, for instance, so what's up with that?
Just in case there are any tiny egos watching-- I want to state it clearly and decisively--
Model Railroader is AWESOME.
And I'll continue to be a subscriber until the day I take that last train ride. Nor is it the only Kalmbach periodical I subscribe to. Plus I buy their books and PDF's and would happily buy their "Dream Railroad" (or whatever it is) series of DVD's if they would only ding my charge card and not make me have to keep up with the billing part. (And I've told them that)
Model Railroader is *deeply embedded* into the heart and soul of the model railroading hobby, and that's just a fact.
I challenge *anyone* to dispute it.
john
mokenarr yeah i know , maybe we need two general forums , one for techincal info and one for just shooting the breeze...
yeah i know , maybe we need two general forums , one for techincal info and one for just shooting the breeze...
I disagree-- I think that forums should only be added exceptionally sparingly and with great prejudice. Every time a new forum is created it splinters (or has the potential to) the previous forum(s). If there is not an exceedingly clear need for it then its going to end up as a rusty spur with almost no visibility or traffic.
I think the better way of handling it is to put an improved "tag cloud" (or some other similar mechanism) in place so that people can "drill down" into whatever topics they want and let the "forums" develop naturally that way. And if new physically-separated "forums" are really needed, then it will be clear, just by looking at the tags and the traffic how they should be divied-up.
The problem, IMO, with physically-separated forums, is that once its done, they tend to be off your radar and you're less connected to the people and topics posted there.