Lack of content and anything new or helpful to me. (with the exception of the DCC forum)
Moved on to more progressive forums, and I assume others have as well. This forum, and the magazine, is for new people in the hobby. Nothing wrong with that mind you, it serves a purpose.
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
While I must agree that rudeness is nothing new, the tone of the average topic on some forums has taken a decidedly negative slant recently.
Even the Atlas moderators have agreed based upon their comments as to why they were locking recent topics.
John
I'm inclined to think it's just the time of the year. More outdoor activities, etc. It could be the economy, but arm chair MRing via the internet is one of the least expensive hobbies one can have. As for rudeness, etc., that's been around as long as the internet, so I don't know why it would suddenly become a factor. Plus, I'm always amazed at the ability of most newbies to take a punch and swing back.
Regardless, it seems like most of the regulars from several years ago are still here.
- Harry
Well, regarding the Atlas HO forum, a few very highly opinionated posters have basically run other more normal/reasonable folks off. They have very little regard for any opinion other than their own. Heaven forbid anyone on the Atlas HO forum should buy an MTH engine and--gasp--actually like it! If you do, they say you are a paid shill representing MTH, or worse. When you respond that you are not a paid shill, they label you a liar and/or a troll thus discrediting anything you might possibly contribute to the forum as being utterly worthless. They are utterly worthless! Manufacturers are now telling me directly that they ignore anything said on the Atlas forum because those nutjobs are not the ones buying the products--all they ever do is criticize.
Sure I spot check some of the topics on there, but I'll never write a single word again, and quite frankly, most of the topics have been utterly depressing.
The BLI forum--much better, though it seems there's always someone complaining about something that would be better fixed with a phone call to the service department, or perhaps sending the model in for service. Even though the BLI fans do not love MTH given the litigation history there, they at least are able to keep the conversation pretty civilized even when MTH comes up!
I've been under the impression that most of the topics on here have been pretty civilized in comparison to the Atlas forum, but I do get tired of reading questions that could often be easily answered by reading the directions available from Atlas and other manufacturers, and I simply don't respond to some of them.
If someone asks a good question in an area where I am able to help, I try to do so.
I don't always agree with Sheldon, and perhaps have written something a little sarcastic in response, but I'm not resorting to name calling. We can agree to disagree, and life will go on.
One of the main reasons is I do believe, is they get tired of the aforementioned rude and better than thou posters. The ones that have been mentioned that don't just offer suggestions but state it as though you are stupid because you don't do it their way. The ones who instead of just keeping their mouth shut have to respond as if it is a great chore to skip a post and they must read and respond to every question even if it hasn't been researched. Ever think some people consider forums a research tool? What better way to find info than from people who do it. 57 different ways to make a road on the internet. Which one do you recommend? Answer. "I figured it out you should at least try it yourself before asking a question. I went to great lengths to figure out what works best for me, you should too instead of taking my expense and experience for free." OK. Why would I come back. Some get tired of getting those types of comments and reading them as well. If my LHS was rude, I wouldn't go there I'd go somewhere else. If it was rude also, I'd buy from the internet. Simple. You have the right to talk that way, I have the right to not listen.
Post of the day, IMHO.
Motley vsmith ..maybe their too busy twitting each other on Facetube or something. Funny quote of the day! I'm still laughing!
vsmith ..maybe their too busy twitting each other on Facetube or something.
..maybe their too busy twitting each other on Facetube or something.
Funny quote of the day! I'm still laughing!
Could be a good point, even I have a Face Book account. Not that I use it much!
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000861843770
Want to be my Friend?
Cuda Ken
I hate Rust
Eric97123 "There is a very simple solution to your problem. Order the missing magazines from Kalmbach. This is called a "back issue." It is people like this with their snotty that ruins it for people.. and it is not just this forum, it is in forums everywhere.. Just because some has not been modeling for 30 years does should not make them the center of ridicule
"There is a very simple solution to your problem. Order the missing magazines from Kalmbach. This is called a "back issue."
It is people like this with their snotty that ruins it for people.. and it is not just this forum, it is in forums everywhere.. Just because some has not been modeling for 30 years does should not make them the center of ridicule
I meant to be helpful.
Mark
I have noticed it too. This forum still seems pretty active, but the Atlas forum has really slowed down. Also, some of the Yahoo groups like NCE-DCC and Wiring for DCC.
Must be the prematurely nice Spring weather. I already have a 3 week jump on golf over last year up here in the Chicago area.
Rich
Alton Junction
vsmith..maybe their too busy twitting each other on Facetube or something.
Michael
CEO- Mile-HI-RailroadPrototype: D&RGW Moffat Line 1989
Swayin A troll or two will run off a newbie in a hurry
When I first joined all most 4 years ago I asked if being new was OK? I had tried a few other sites and was pretty much ignored or brushed off. (guess they where smarter than people here)
Far as it being slower lately I think springs and slower sales this last holiday season has a lot to do with it. More with it being Spring. Some areas had a pretty nasty winter.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL First, I have to agree with Pastor Bob. And to be even more specific: fwrightCause #2: Departure of the master model railroaders from many forums, and replacement with RTR folks. The beginners all ask the same layout building questions, or RTR quality questions. Very seldom are there any threads on model building, whether kits or scratch - Darth Santa Fe being a great exception. Every time I have posted a new thread with modeling information, or responded to a question with my results of doing this for 40 years, most of the feedback I received has been negative, OR there has been no interest in the topic at all. It seems that expressing any sort of alternative view that is outside the "mainstream" makes one a sniper, troll or whatever in the eyes of many. I have been called all sorts of names in my short membership on here because I don't use DCC, don't like onboard sound in small scales, think signaling is very important if modeling a class I line, I think selective compression of rolling stock is OK, I think curves (and layout spaces) are never "too big", I like sprung metal trucks, I don't worship brass or other high end models, etc. Sheldon
First, I have to agree with Pastor Bob. And to be even more specific:
fwrightCause #2: Departure of the master model railroaders from many forums, and replacement with RTR folks. The beginners all ask the same layout building questions, or RTR quality questions. Very seldom are there any threads on model building, whether kits or scratch - Darth Santa Fe being a great exception.
Every time I have posted a new thread with modeling information, or responded to a question with my results of doing this for 40 years, most of the feedback I received has been negative, OR there has been no interest in the topic at all.
It seems that expressing any sort of alternative view that is outside the "mainstream" makes one a sniper, troll or whatever in the eyes of many.
I have been called all sorts of names in my short membership on here because I don't use DCC, don't like onboard sound in small scales, think signaling is very important if modeling a class I line, I think selective compression of rolling stock is OK, I think curves (and layout spaces) are never "too big", I like sprung metal trucks, I don't worship brass or other high end models, etc.
Sheldon
Sheldon,I can relate to your views..As you and others know I am a very basic modeler that goes against the main stream of DCC/Sound and 110% accuracy is a must for modeling and feel that model railroading is still fun in its basic form.You and others know my feelings toward "experts" especially how they love to complicate the simple and overstate the obvious.
Like you I have recieve vile e-mails because of my views..
You want to find the master modelers? They're in SIGs or can be found on the RailRoad Forum and not on common forums because in some cases the "expert wannabes" drives them off..
Of course there is a few here as well.You see their modeling every weekend.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
I also have noticed a real shift in the direction of the hobby. I had stopped posting building logs for the simple lack of interest, it seams to me that only a few care anymore about interesting kitbashing, Now it all about open-the-box-and-put-it-on-the-track mentality taking over. Not many have the patience anymore for actual modeling. This is based on participation here, on the GR forum (which is veery slow now) and a couple other large scale forums including one overseas.
Last year I had to remove my large permanent layout and have since been building a much much much smaller mobile layout and have been in the process of downsizing my roster from 70 down to 40 and eventually down to around 20ish items. The layout dismantling really had a negative impact on my enthusiasm at the time. I have also stopped building kitbashes for the time being until I get rid of the stuff that no longer fits my current direction, so between the roster downsizing and the layout rebuild I simply havent had anything to post about. I dont post anything here anymore as it would be of little interest being not much more than a glorified Micro-layout, and would likely be deemed 'boring' by some here. So I toil in happy solitude.
I would have thought the economy would if anything, have brought more people into the hobby as more people look for things to do at home as a family and dont require a $10K motor vehicle for each family member to participate with. I've read that the hobby has grown during the recession but forum participation has definelty dropped off across all forums, maybe their too busy twitting each other on Facetube or something.
Have fun with your trains
These forums are a valuable resource for newbies. If I didn't get help from here, I would be lost as a chicken crossing the road.
But I do agree about rude people, I know several of my newbie questions created quit a contraversy. I take it all in stride, and I remember I came here to get help and understand some people have strong viewpoints.
Wow, this thread sure got some attention! Where all you people been? LOL
I think dilution is a big factor. There are so many forums, social networks like facebook, blogs, personal sites, etc. (and more coming all the time) that I think you just get fewer people on each one while overall the participation is the same. And many folks have interests besides model railroading and there are more of those places to visit.
Early on I made a decision to only participate in one general forum since I really don't have time for more. I belong to 4 specialty Yahoo groups to cover S scale, S Helper products, NCE DCC, and Ma&Pa RR, but these are much lower activity rate than here. From time to time I check other forums. If I ever find one I like more than here, then my participation level here will decline even though my time on line remains the same.
Enjoy
Paul
Here is my opinion as I see it.
I don't think the economy accounts for the bulk. Many posters here do not have a MRR or any items. They do have plans and dreams and conversation is not effected by the economy.
Repetitiveness could account for some, I know I am letting my car magazine lapse because the content is repetitive in that though there are new systems out there, you can only read about rebuilding your first engine or painting your first car so many times before you say, why am I still getting this. In the magazines defense, and all magazines for that matter, they have to appeal to new readers as well as old. But in a free forum that could have an effect but I don't think widespread.
The other main reason I believe is simply weather related. It's getting nice out in many parts of the world and inside activities such as the forums are taking back seat. Just like the railroads for many.
I don't think the forums are in danger because of the drop off. When the spring chores are done and the blazing heat of summer sets in, the activity will pick up a bit until the weather cools for fall activities and preparations for winter. Then, back inside again.
Just my opinion. Yours, of course, will vary but shouldn't, or I will rake you over the coals.
Todd
Central Illinoyz
In order to keep my position as Master and Supreme Ruler of the House, I don't argue with my wife.
I'm a small town boy. A product of two people from even smaller towns. I don’t talk on topic….. I just talk.
Hi!
I suspect a portion of what may be happening is the usual "spring is here, lets go outside and play" scenario that we see every year - particularly (IMHO) with those MRs who live in places where winter means cold and snow.
Is there really a drop off from year to year? I don't know, but believe that the folks running this website could quantify each years postings, OPs, members, etc., etc. and give some valid stats.
For what its worth........
Mobilman44
ENJOY !
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
fwright AltonFan Other than that, I think a kind of fatigue sets in. You get tired of answering the same questions, repeating the same arguments, and fighting the same battles. Personal opinion - I think AltonFan's reason would be the primary cause. Used to be I wouldn't miss a day. Now, after a few days of intensive forum visiting, I'm tired of it and will let it go for a week with a feeling of "I've seen this all before." I can predict what a lot of frequent posters are going to say. Cause #2: Departure of the master model railroaders from many forums, and replacement with RTR folks. The beginners all ask the same layout building questions, or RTR quality questions. Very seldom are there any threads on model building, whether kits or scratch - Darth Santa Fe being a great exception. Cause #3: Plain wrong information being passed as fact. Cause #4: Folks taking offense at snippy remarks, being told to search, or just not getting the replies they wanted or expected. I don't think the economy is the cause. When I was unemployed 2007-2008, I probably spent more time on the forums. Most of us are in or seeking jobs that require some computer skills, and require some Internet work/research in the job hunt. I don't think the Internet connection is one of the 1st things a model railroader gives up when he is unemployed. My experience is that spending on models and layout will supplies will shut down first; the forums provide a way to stay active in the hobby with no money to spend. my thoughts Fred W
AltonFan Other than that, I think a kind of fatigue sets in. You get tired of answering the same questions, repeating the same arguments, and fighting the same battles.
Other than that, I think a kind of fatigue sets in. You get tired of answering the same questions, repeating the same arguments, and fighting the same battles.
Personal opinion - I think AltonFan's reason would be the primary cause. Used to be I wouldn't miss a day. Now, after a few days of intensive forum visiting, I'm tired of it and will let it go for a week with a feeling of "I've seen this all before." I can predict what a lot of frequent posters are going to say.
Cause #2: Departure of the master model railroaders from many forums, and replacement with RTR folks. The beginners all ask the same layout building questions, or RTR quality questions. Very seldom are there any threads on model building, whether kits or scratch - Darth Santa Fe being a great exception.
Cause #3: Plain wrong information being passed as fact.
Cause #4: Folks taking offense at snippy remarks, being told to search, or just not getting the replies they wanted or expected.
I don't think the economy is the cause. When I was unemployed 2007-2008, I probably spent more time on the forums. Most of us are in or seeking jobs that require some computer skills, and require some Internet work/research in the job hunt. I don't think the Internet connection is one of the 1st things a model railroader gives up when he is unemployed. My experience is that spending on models and layout will supplies will shut down first; the forums provide a way to stay active in the hobby with no money to spend.
my thoughts
Fred W
Well put Fred! The slow down in the economy may put a crimp in someone's purchases of supplies and materials for the hobby but it should cause someone to stop participating in forums, especially free ones like this one.
People should be polite, but discussion involves different opinions, otherwise there is not much to talk about.
I understand that not everyone agrees with me, that's fine - but there is sometimes an attitude that everyone should "go alone to get alone" - not exactly a free exchange of ideas or learning, growing kind of view in my mind. And I admit sometimes in the past I let some of these people get me too wound up.
So after being told several times by "experts" how semi scale wheelsets "always" work just fine and how my 400 freight cars with Kadee trucks equiped with Intermountain wheelsets could NOT possibly work, I don't fight that battle any more - and if some new person learns the hard way that semi scale wheelsets make all his cars rock and roll through his Atlas code 83 turnouts - oh well. The "experts" all told him how much better they were, without telling him they hand lay their track.
Or if some guy has 22" curves and wants passenger cars I don't explain the modeling upgrades I do to Athearn and Con-Cor 72' cars anymore - since it always involves comments about their lack of prototype accuracy, mostly from people not willing to build anytihng but happy to pay $50-$75 for one passenger car RTR.
So, enough examples, it seems few are really interested in modeling. So the little time I spend on here now is often discussing the state of the hobby or the hobby industry itself - also an interest since I an a business person and use to work in the hobby business.
And I find myself spending less and less time on here. A few are interested in discussing "modeling philosophies" in a civil manner, and I do enjoy those discussions. But I must say I have not "learned" much of interest and therefore my time is better spent elsewhere.
I have found this forum very helpful and for some new to the hobby that has been a great help but here is an example from another thread that if I was the response I got as a newbie I would said F You to the forum and never come back
British Columbia is weighing in heavily in this conversation - two from the island and one from Merritt! Good for you guys!
CNJ831Another item worth mentioning which seems to point to an even longer term trend in participation is that this forum's number of registered members is currently less than 1/3 of what it was say half a dozen years ago!
To my knowledge, membership in the forum does not "expire." Once you join, you're in the database forever, so the number only goes up. But, a few years back Kalmbach did a major forum upgrade, and as I recall they did not carry over the member database. We all had to re-register. This is probably the cause of the big drop in reported forum membership - thousands of inactive accounts were gone.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
I am active on several forums, and not just MR/train related, and I have noticed the same thing across them all over the winter: lots less of the regular posters posting for whatever reason, more snippyness (sp?), more one timers who seem to get the answer they wanted and then don't come back, etc.
I wonder about the economy argument since as long as you have your internet connection, then the forums are free (for the most part) and can be a way to help ride out tougher times. Unless things are so tough that people are dropping their connections too?
I can only speak for myself, but John, in the time I have spent on the forums since joining five or six in a short period between 2005 and 2006, I have become saturated. It is my nature...I do that to all interests, particularly if they are intense ones for me.
This means two things: my learning is now sharply focused, and I don't need to devour every thread and post in them, and it also means I have become much more efficient in my use of time at the computer. I haven't added any forums, no yahoo lists or whatever, so when I come to any hobby places I spend only a few minutes where I would have spend an hour or more.
Facebook has taken over for a lot of people, and someone mentioned blogging...all meant to feed the ego and shout, "Hey, look at me!" But, to be as objective as I can be, in terms of their social value and nature, they appeal much more to women than to men...or so it seems in my circles. Blogging is more in tune with the male psych, and there's lots of it to do...apparently. Not for me.
As Larry and others have pointed out, there are flavours or cultures from place to place. The Atlas forum is about as rabid as they come. Sure, some great modelling and photography, and some witty and sharp guys with good manners, but it also seems to be a haven, maybe more a haunt, for some truly marginal personalities. Then there is the opposite, places like modelrailroadforums and trainboard...tightly run ships. Or, the vaunted railroad line forums, arguably one of the best and slickest run boards out there. If there is disagreement, the mods point to the door and ask them to sort it out off line. But there is next to no disagreement, and certainly the chest thumping doesn't seem to pop up in an in-your-face kind of way.
It used to be that clubs and associations were THE thing to do, and at which to be seen. Now, who goes to clubs? Few... usually older males who have had a history of belonging to organized groups. The younger generation seems to abhor regulation and direction, and certainly having to sit in a chair with others a la classroom and be in listening mode while an older male pontificates about something or other. For them, it is mostly information seeking, and if they get their question answered, you don't see a lot of them much after that.
-Crandell
I'm a newer member here and on other railway/modelling forums, simply because I only recently returned to the hobby. I am, however, not a new member to forums in general and have been an active member on other forums for years.
I think Fred hit the nail on the head, particularly with his second point. You can only answer the same question so many times before you begin to lose interest in helping out. There is a trend, mostly with younger people, to ask rather than research, despite Google, and this trend isn't limited to this forum. I don't mind trying to help out, especially if someone has tried to search out information and been unsuccessful, for whatever reason, but continuously answering the same question is out. I skip those threads.
Another reason people might spend less time on forums is that it is time taken away from modelling or running trains. This is the case with me right now. My answer here is because I find this discussion interesting and can hopefully contribute.
The other point that was clear was the injection of rudeness, snippyness, personal attacks, lack of respect, etc., call it what you will. Nothing, absolutely nothing, will chase people away faster than these types of posts. We are here to have fun and share ideas.
I live in a model railroad wilderness and must rely on the net for most of my information sharing, learning, and purchasing. I have met one skilled local modeller who has become a good friend and who has helped me tremendously in my reentry to the hobby, but the net is still a primary resource for information sharing. There are others in the area, but I haven't met any of them yet.
A computer is absolutely necessary in the hunt for a job in this day and age. I was forced to retrain for medical reasons and finished schooling in December 2008. I have had a casual job in my chosen field for over a year, but am still looking for full time work. Without a computer I wouldn't be aware of 90% of the jobs being posted. Computers are one of the last things to be dumped when one is strapped for cash and out of work. Good luck to all those searching.
Anyway, that's my 3.5 cents worth. Time to get back to modelling.
One example. I showed a pic of my Buss wire and terminal blocks using 12 Gauge wire. A couple of people hung me out to dry on using 12 Gauge saying it was overkill and a waste of money ( yadda,yadda,yadda) If they had asked me WHY I have used 12 Gauge I would have told them that it was because I got 600 feet of it for free. I was not telling people to use 12 Gauge wire. I was showing how to Daisy chain. Do I need to defend this to people who seem to berate many members on everything they do from weathering to mountain building when no opinions have been asked for.
Yes, the need to tell you what you did *wrong* is hereditary to anonymous mesasage-board formats, sad to say. All gets back to pastorbob's comment about a lack of civility, especially online.
John,Another thought crossed my mind..
Maybe many has out grown this basic forum? I mean once a modeler learns the basics he/she may want to move on to bigger and better things like a discussion group or a scale only forum.I know N Scalers doesn't meet here to discuss new N products,faulty products or modeling-I go else where to engage in such activities..The same can apply to HO and HO products of course the same can be said about any modeling activity including prototypical operation or advanced layout planing.
Of course a forum is only as good as the information or modeling techniques shared by its members through topics...
I am going to have to agree that it is the economy and the time of year. I am usually doing my modeling around December through March. I do some in the summer, but I have other interests that are only can be done in the summer such as boating and camping.
Will
Well in the four years I have been around, I think the numbers of members seems to have gone up. It is not unusual to see 50 members online at a given moment, whereas four years ago 30 seemed to be a good number. That being said I do think the number of postings is on the decline.
I am posting less as I find my eyes rolling heavenward having to defend things I have done that just don't matter. Go ahead and ask why I did something the way I did, but don't tell me I am doing it wrong if it doesn't matter one way or another.
I will continue to enjoy this forum and participate. But I do think twice before responding sometimes.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
A lot of interesting and thought provoking input so far. It should be enlightening also to see what additional folks have to add over the course of this evening.
MisterBeasley has called attention to the presumed annual cycle of forum activity, to which I'll add that the true peak in number of posts/posters used to occur during the summertime when younger hobbyists were out of school. However, as far as I can recall, that usual influx wasn't very evident last year for the first time.
Another item worth mentioning which seems to point to an even longer term trend in participation is that this forum's number of registered members is currently less than 1/3 of what it was say half a dozen years ago! This makes me think that there was really a novelty factor involved in the early years of model railroading websites and that for many, the shine has worth off. As someone mentioned upstream, perhaps there's a burnout factor as well. In that light, as I've noted on occasion previously, there are very few participants on this forum today who date their membership from the beginnings of the Trains.com forums, suggesting that long-term interest in any of these sites may be limited among hobbyists.
CNJ831