Well, sonny,
speaking as one of the Kalmbach forums elders (I joined WAY back when the forums were only about 10 days old)... urgh... gimme a second...gotta climb down off my high horse and onto my soapbox...
OK.
Having watched the Model Railroader forum nearly since Day One, I can tell you that, overall, they haven't really changed much. A bit more structure than the early days, of course, with such member-initiated "standard" features like the Diners, the Beer-thing, WPF, etc. But the discussion threads otherwise have remained astoundingly the same. Sure, the mix changes as trends in the hobby develop (like the higher incidence of threads relating to RTR items, for example), but otherwise they're mostly the same thing over and over.
When I was new on the forum, everything was interesting. But after the tenth (or so) "What scale should I choose?" I stopped looking at those. Ditto the dozenth (dozenth?) "Which DCC System should I choose?" And so on. Not that there was any less validity to them the umpteenth time they were asked, but I'd been there and done that several times. Those who asked early on were now answering, so my (and others') lack of participation in those threads was no loss.
So after being around for awhile, a lot of people develop a sense of "sameness" in the forum that results in a lack of pull to come back and see what's going on. Some don't of course, but the general result is that many of us don't visit as often or post as often when we do visit (and I was never one to "jabber-post" anyway).
With all of that, plus making a bit of a leap of logic here, a decline in forum activities in general may be indicative of a drop in new members of the hobby as a whole!
Mark P.
Website: http://www.thecbandqinwyoming.comVideos: https://www.youtube.com/user/mabrunton
March 2010: 10059Feb 2010: 10730Jan 2010: 11435Dec 2009: 10407
March 2009: 11585Feb 2009: 10960Jan 2009: 13026Dec 2008: 10804
So yes - the numbers of posts are down a little for December and February, and quite a bit for January and March, compared with one year ago.But of course - 10 000+ posts in a month in the Model Railroader forums alone is not exactly few posts - it still represents more than 300 posts a day :-)
.Smile, Stein
There you go again, Stein, screwing up a perfectly good kvetch session with the facts.
And, just for giggles, having mentioned porcelain deities in an earlier post, I thought I might treat all and sundry to one of the mightiest: http://tinyurl.com/y79dv6c
$4,400+ for one of those? And y'all thought the hobby was expensive? Whatever happened to the good old scratchbuilt outhouse built by craftsmen who took pride in their work? At least this thing doesn't need DCS to operate correctly. Not unless MTH has branched into another line of business (Mike's Toilet House).
Andre
Bruce
According to these figures, just much ado about nothing?
I also feel there is less activity in this forum with less posts, at least from those 20 + frequent posters I was familiar to see. A lot of new names, though - indicating a lot of fluctuation.
markpierce Out of curiosity, I looked at the post tally of my favorite railroad Yahoo discussion site. Messages generally ranged from 400 to 900 postings a month, and I don't see a pattern of decline.
Out of curiosity, I looked at the post tally of my favorite railroad Yahoo discussion site. Messages generally ranged from 400 to 900 postings a month, and I don't see a pattern of decline.
Hmm - played a little with the search engine here.
For the forums (MR, Toy trains, Trains, Garden trains) as a whole, the number of posts per month were:
A year ago:Dec 1st - 31st 2008: 19397Jan 1st - 31st 2009: 22540Feb 1st - 28th 2009: 19590March 1 - 31st 2009: 20270
These days:Dec 1st - 31st 2009: 18376Jan 1st - 31st 2010: 20424Feb 1st - 28th 2010: 18539March 1 - 31st 2010: 17796
For just the Model Railroader forums (search terms: groupid:8 AND date:[20100301 TO 20100331]) the numbers were:
So yes - the numbers of posts are down a little for December and February, and quite a bit for January and March, compared with one year ago.
But of course - 10 000+ posts in a month in the Model Railroader forums alone is not exactly few posts - it still represents more than 300 posts a day :-)
Mark
I have no idea whether general posting levels are down or not, or if it is down, why it is down.
But I know that my own number of posts per week is down. Why I post less? For the reasons Fred mentioned.
I got a little tired of spending time on trying to communicate with prickly semi-illiterate newbies who seemingly doesn't want to spend much of their own time or money on research, books, on formulating their posts, on exploring options or discussing alternatives, or on responding to people who post in their thread, but just want THE answer (as if there was just one way of doing things ...) to a vaguely formulated question, and want that answer RIGHT NOW (or they will start whining about not getting any help).
It is fun to go explore possible options *together* - I enjoy that, and I keep learning from it. Especially when several people get inspired by each other's ideas, and starts posting suggestions for alternate ways of doing stuff or comments pointing out weaknesses in the previous suggestion or whatever.
But I am a little burned out on trying to engage new people in conversation. I look at their posts. If their posts seems poorly organized, poorly spelled, either way too terse (like one sentence) or very long and rambling, I usually decide to give that thread a miss.
That's no tragedy - neither for me, nor for others. If the subjects being discussed is interesting to people, they will take part in the discussion. If not, they will do something else. Right now, I am working more on my layout, and enjoying spring after a long, dark and cold winter :-)
Of course, there are also a few people who seem to specialize in posting sarcastic or snippy comments. To me, these people haven't been much of a problem - they are fairly easy to interact with.
You just ignore their attitude, and see if they have some actual constructive suggestions to offer under the layer of sarcasm. Some offer sound advice along with the sarcasm, others offer only sarcasm. You quickly learn which is which.
Smile, Stein
CNJ831I'm curious if others have noticed the very apparent decline in posts/posters across the entire spectrum of model railroad forums in the past few months?...commets? Ideas?
Long thread with lots of interesting replies. I see parts of all of them. I also visit, or used, several fishing and woodworking forums. In every one of them, this same discussion has come up lately, so I don't think this is a model railroading specific phenomenon. In those forums too, the rude poster, the repetitive questions and the loss of the knowledge base have also been posed. Without dismissing the first couple, I would like to expand on the third. I have been following many forums for over ten years, some into the early 90s (what can I say, early adopter). Many forums had a handfull of key, knowledgable individuals around whom indepth discussion would take place. These folks often developed a following (on one board for example, someone saved several years of an individuals posts and the board has filed them for permanent access due to the depth of knowledge he imparted). However, for a lot of reasons, unfortunately including the last train ride, those folks eventually leave. Heck I still have fond memories of chats, discussions, agreements, and yes, even disagreements, with many friends from those boards. The same kind you would have on the front porch. Yet visit those boards today and the knowledge, the indepth discussions, the neighborliness, is missing. Replaced instead by one hit wonders, impatient kids (how often have you seen a post with nine replies, all "bumps" by the OP within six hours?), and "my way or the highway" responses.
I don't know the answer, or even if this is a problem or merely a winnowing down to the core; just wanted to throw these thoughts out there.
John- You're right. 'Tis a silly concept and would never work. But like me hauling cattle on the rails, it's your railroad so why not. Besides, I don't know about you, but I haven't turned a profit with my railroad yet so maybe it'll fit right in after all!
Todd
Central Illinoyz
In order to keep my position as Master and Supreme Ruler of the House, I don't argue with my wife.
I'm a small town boy. A product of two people from even smaller towns. I don’t talk on topic….. I just talk.
TMarshAsk them if they care that I have a made up scenerio and model the present to include cattle cars and passenger service by a railroad other than AMTRAK and make my world as I want. I'll bet you 99 to 100% of the "greats" don't give a rats situpon.
Whew! That's good to know since I was really worried about telling anybody my plan for a "What-If" layout where a number of really terrific railroads got merged together into a Congressionally-mandated pseudo public corporation slash govt agency with non-sensical routes, old and dilapidated right-of-way, second-hand motive power and rolling stock, forced to pay the pensions for every railroad man who ever lived-- AND makes a profit...
Whaddaya think? Might be interesting, no?
Of course its only a fantasy layout.... I doubt anything like that could ever exist in the real world.
John
cowman One doesn't need to be a master modeler to have information that will help someone. Also, a master modeler may have never encountered a situation and not to bright little ole me may have his answer. Let's all get back to having fun, asking questions, giving answers and sharing this wonderful hobby.
One doesn't need to be a master modeler to have information that will help someone. Also, a master modeler may have never encountered a situation and not to bright little ole me may have his answer.
Let's all get back to having fun, asking questions, giving answers and sharing this wonderful hobby.
For me it's a simple answer(s) Spring it here Honey Do list trumps model railroading every time. I've grown a custom to creature comforts like clean cloths and hot meal call me old and soft.
TMarsh....If a post does not interest you and you don't feel it is worthy of your time, why do you give it the time to slam it? Makes no sense. Just move on to something you do like.
If a post does not interest you and you don't feel it is worthy of your time, why do you give it the time to slam it? Makes no sense. Just move on to something you do like.
That is probably one of the key reasons I have been posting less. Good observation.
I don't frequent other forums, but there are times that these do seem a bit quiet.
There does seem to be an increase in unpleasant answers, which is too bad. Folks come here to get information about something that they have a question about. If they are like me, not really very computer literate, there can easily be many things they don't know. There are many features of these forums that I haven't a clue how to get to. (Just learned another function last week, about the time I was going to ask the same question.) Computer programs in general, I use barely a fraction of the materials available. For those who took to computers like ducks take to water (my kids) or have been to classes to learn how to use the features (my wife), more power to them.
If someone asks a question that has been asked recently or frequently, I just refer them to the thread or a search function that can help them. I am not a frequent Google user, to suggest using it is fine, just say it without a snide comment. I've repeated information, when it has been awhile since an earlier thread was posted, a little frustrating? Yes, but if I knew how to refer directly to a thread I could do a better job. Maybe their question is slightly different, the same answer may work, maybe it needs a slightly different approach to the answer.
I am thankful for the many answers I have received. I have learned from others questions. I hope my answers have helped others. We should all be in this to have fun and willing to help someone else who has a queston. I know that there are many folks with much more experience than I and I try to listen to them. However, there are also people with less experience overall, that may have dabbled in some area I have a question about, thus they may have my answer. One doesn't need to be a master modeler to have information that will help someone. Also, a master modeler may have never encountered a situation and not to bright little ole me may have his answer.
One problem with the written word is it reads one way to the writer and it could read differently to the reader. Mark's response is a good example. It can be taken two ways. We should always give the writer the benefit of the doubt. I have read many posts by him, and maybe I've missed a few, but I wouldn't say he's rude. There are a few who have strong opinions and straight forward ways of putting information out. But they are not rude or insulting either. There is a difference in just being to the point and somewhat blunt, just answering the question, and being rude and insulting. There are a few, however, where there is no doubt. Very few, but they always seem to show up.
Maybe, just maybe, the "greats" get tired of the wannabe's also and just move on. By the way, the greats don't care how accurate you are either. If you want to be accurate that's fine, if you don't, that's fine as well. Too bad others can't find that step in being as great. Ask all of the fine modellers in this hobby if they care that I don't model the Texas and Pacific but just use their name. Ask them if they care that I have a made up scenerio and model the present to include cattle cars and passenger service by a railroad other than AMTRAK and make my world as I want. I'll bet you 99 to 100% of the "greats" don't give a rats situpon. But if I ask them a question, they'll answer without using the word "idiot" or the phrase "looks stupid". You know why? because they are the Greats. And quite frankly there are far more folks in this forum who are on their way to being the greats, if not for their modeling skills at least for their tolerance, than most others.
Also, if the new people or the inexperienced, such as myself, must research the questions we ask and do forum searches to see if what is old hat to some but new to me, has already been asked and answered, naturally there will be a decline in posts. If a new person asks for 50,000th time "N scale or HO" or "what set should I buy. DC or DCC" once a month, and he can't ask that question, that's three posts a month less. Multiply that by the amount of other posts that have been asked and there is part of the decline. I'm not suggesting just post questions to be posting questions, but think about it. Add to that the ones who are afraid to post their first, many folks cruise a forum before joining, because they see the reactions some give to questions asked.
Having taken a year or so away from here myself not too long ago, I WILL say that the reason I stayed away is of all the negativity that was here.
People saying that if you don't have 60" radius (EXAGERATTED) curves, you're only playing with toys. That type of attitude, how can I say this......HMMmmmmm....... SUCKS!
This has been for the most part a great forum & I hope Kalmbach continues with it. The best thing I've seen is having someone from the ranks help moderate it
Just my 2 cents
Gordon
Brought to you by the letters C.P.R. as well as D&H!
K1a - all the way
Good point, Dave.
- Harry
Harry, good point. I'm referring to the scale VERY dependent, not the scale independent questions. Another good example would be how often an HO guy offers up the vaporware BLI/PCM PRR M1 4-8-2 as an N scale steam engine you can buy. Most N scalers know that thing was announced in 2004 and will never see the light of day. So what is meant to be helpful ends up wasting the poor OP's time.
Obviously things like backdrop painting, benchwork, and most weathering and scenery techniques are scale independent. But as you mentioned, giving advice is one thing, but declaring one's own technique as the One True Faith is quite another...
Modeling the Rio Grande Southern First District circa 1938-1946 in HOn3.
Dave VollmerLet me add this... One major turn-off for me, and I suspect many, is that in general forums like this there is a whole chorus of folks who feel compelled to answer every question about every scale, every railroad, every product, and every technique, most of which they know absolutely nothing about. Case in point: How many N scale product questions are answered incorrectly by HO and O scale modelers who have only ever glanced at N scale behind the glass at the LHS counter? Or how often does a prototype question receive a patently wrong answer because the respondent just assumes what his prototype did is what every prototype did? I know that this post might seem harsh, and I apologize. But this is the one thing that irks me beyond all others about forum in general but is particularly endemic to this one. If we all stuck to answering questions we were reasonably prepared to answer correctly, certainly threads would be shorter but the information offered to the community would be so, so much better. /High-horse mode off
Let me add this... One major turn-off for me, and I suspect many, is that in general forums like this there is a whole chorus of folks who feel compelled to answer every question about every scale, every railroad, every product, and every technique, most of which they know absolutely nothing about. Case in point: How many N scale product questions are answered incorrectly by HO and O scale modelers who have only ever glanced at N scale behind the glass at the LHS counter? Or how often does a prototype question receive a patently wrong answer because the respondent just assumes what his prototype did is what every prototype did?
I know that this post might seem harsh, and I apologize. But this is the one thing that irks me beyond all others about forum in general but is particularly endemic to this one. If we all stuck to answering questions we were reasonably prepared to answer correctly, certainly threads would be shorter but the information offered to the community would be so, so much better.
/High-horse mode off
Granted, people shouldn't try to answer questions they know nothing about, but many questions are scale independent. I recently asked a question in the layout construction forum and got a lot of good and differing answers.
Personally, I like hearing about different approaches and different philosophies. The answers that irk me are the ones who think they know the best and he only good answer for all people. In my opinion, there's usually more than one equally good way to solve a problem, and personal preference is an important factor.
I know that this post might seem harsh, and I apologize. But this is the one thing that irks me beyond all others about forums in general, but is particularly endemic to this one. If we all stuck to answering questions we were reasonably prepared to answer correctly, certainly threads would be shorter but the information offered to the community would be so, so much better.
andrechapelonThe problem I see as others have alluded to is the stark disappearance of great modelers on this forum. For instance, What ever happened to Joe Fugate? He founded his own magazine. Andre
The problem I see as others have alluded to is the stark disappearance of great modelers on this forum. For instance, What ever happened to Joe Fugate?
He founded his own magazine.
[Link removed]
Enjoy
Paul
From time to time when I login I notice whose on the forum and have seen that there are usually 20 times or more visitors on line as opposed to members.
They may or may not be members as you can be registered on one computer but not others. The historical perspective and record of the numbers of these visitors would certainly tell a lot about the health of the forum. Although they may not be actively participating they are in their way and as much so as members who don't post.
I too have missed members who I found helpfull when I first joined as well as newbies who started a layout way after me, showed excellent progress in less that a year never to be heard from again.
On the other hand there may be skilled members who have left or become visitors, but there is still an excellent pool of knowledgeable members. Maybe you are the next generation of top modler and don't know it yet.
Bob
Don't Ever Give Up
An interesting discussion indeed.
One must properly separate the issue of departure of modelers from this forum as an issue distinct from the OP, which is a trend of declining participation on all model railroad fora.
The novelty has worn off.
I'm not sure I agree that participation is down across all forums I frequent... Some have high turnover which can be mistaken for decline, some have real decline, and some have growth.
For me, I'm much more active in one particular forum which caters much more to my needs and interests. Yes, I'm a model railroader, but specifically I'm a modeler of two Northeastern railroads in N scale in two very specific eras with a very specific set of standards for construction, scenery, and operation. A general forum such as this has only limited value to me when I can go find the company of a group of very focused (and very critical) modelers with very similar interests. So I come here much, much less and go other places much more.
Another curve ball is that my most active period here was 2006-2008 while I was completing my PhD. As with most numerical weather modeling research, I frequently had small chunks of time to kill during model experiments or running model pre- and post-procesing scripts. Rarely was it enough time to make significant headway on a manuscript or a derivation, but was usually ample time for a few posts over at Trains.com. Once I went back into the mainstream operational Air Force that kind of time (and unrestricted internet access) was gone.
As for the departure of "greats" from Trains.com, well... I still think it's partially a matter of the novelty wearing off. Once one realizes how much posting time could be modeling time, one has to make a choice. Also, as has been mentioned, it gets very tiring seeing the same questions and same arguments over and over again. Kudos to those who can see past that to realize the value of treating new members to the same level of service that we all got when we joined.
The critical component, though, has to be that the very general forums like this hold little interest for a "master" because they have already progressed beyond the level of help it can offer. Joe Fugate, as was mentioned, was known for his wonderful advice and tutorials. Do you think he got back as much as he gave? No. I can promise not. He continued to give anyway until he founded his own magazine. But his skills were already way beyond where he could stand to gain any significant additional development through this forum. That's not meant to offend anyone here, but I think we known this to be true. Joe certainly had nothing to learn from me, and I had everything to learn from him!
So I don't know that I see a broad decline across all fora that I frequent; I don't have actual hard numbers. But I suspect it's a combination of a lot of things rom declining novelty, high specialization, and time.
andrechapelon The problem I see as others have alluded to is the stark disappearance of great modelers on this forum. For instance, What ever happened to Joe Fugate? He founded his own magazine.
There are great modelers and railroad historians participating in the MR forums, but most are not widely known because they aren't published or use pseudonyms.
Mark (once published in May 1971)
Do a Google search for Joe Fugate magazine
Rich
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
I think the general interest forums (like this one) are where a lot of folks start, then as they find people who are in the same "place" they are (layout progress, prototype fidelity, sense of humor, geography, era, favorite road names, scale etc. etc.) and they'll drift to a forum that better fits their needs.
I spend most of my forum time elsewhere, because it's more focused on northeastern N scale railroading, I can meet up with a bunch of the guys at various events and venues, and we can all crack jokes about things without worrying about someone getting their drawers in a bunch. Technically it's a public forum, and it has a membership of around 1000 registered guests, but the conversation remains very tightly focused (although not exactly controlled!).
I like to spin through here periodically to see if anyone has a newbie question I can answer, or if there's a philosophical topic that's of interest to me. Sometimes it's like slowing down while you drive by a car wreck, but for the most part there's something to chat about on a daily basis, even if it's only for a few moments.
Lee
Route of the Alpha Jets www.wmrywesternlines.net
Eric97123I have found this forum very helpful and for some new to the hobby that has been a great help but here is an example from another thread that if I was the response I got as a newbie I would said F You to the forum and never come back "There is a very simple solution to your problem. Order the missing magazines from Kalmbach. This is called a "back issue." It is people like this with their snotty that ruins it for people.. and it is not just this forum, it is in forums everywhere.. Just because some has not been modeling for 30 years does should not make them the center of ridicule
I have found this forum very helpful and for some new to the hobby that has been a great help but here is an example from another thread that if I was the response I got as a newbie I would said F You to the forum and never come back
"There is a very simple solution to your problem. Order the missing magazines from Kalmbach. This is called a "back issue."
It is people like this with their snotty that ruins it for people.. and it is not just this forum, it is in forums everywhere.. Just because some has not been modeling for 30 years does should not make them the center of ridicule
Funny how one can read into the written word. I see it differently. I see YOU as the snotty person as opposed to Mark who actually gave you a great answer. Honestly there are people who don't know what a "back issue" is. Maybe you took offense to that, I don't know. You have to think before you react. What was the other person really trying to tell you.
I consider myself a "mediocre" modeler who is trying to learn and get better. The problem I see as others have alluded to is the stark disappearance of great modelers on this forum. For instance, What ever happened to Joe Fugate? There are others too. Just my thoughts.....yours may differ. And I don't take offense to criticism.
Seems to me it can be easily explained by early onset lack of interest, complicated by chronic ennui brought on by the 15th edition of a rant about hobby prices, manufacturers, Kalmbach Publishing in general (and MR in particular), RTR and/or the perceived lack of modeling content in the aformentioned company's best known publication and the 33rd complaint of the year (and it's only early April) about not being able to get some giant locomotive to go around 18" curves in HO.
The disease presents initially with an inability to give a rat's patootie about any topic of discussion even though the patient may have been an active past participant in some of the most pyrotechnic "discussions" of any of the subjects mentioned in the above paragraph. As the disease progresses to its critical point, the patient is likely to have symptoms resembling those of a person who has gotten roaring drunk for the first time in his/her life and has a religious epiphany as a result. Said epiphany leads to episodes of worshiping gods with names like Kohler, Universal Rundle, American Standard and the like. The worship of the aforementioned gods more often than not consists of acts of sacrificing the contents of one's stomach in a vain attempt to appease the gods. In fact, participants in this ritual can get so caught up in the act of sacrifice that there is nothing left that can be sacrificed and the participant in this particularly strange ritual is said to be in a trance-like state known colloquially as "the dry heaves".
To date, medical science has neither developed a cure for the disease nor a vaccine against it. Fortunately, the condition is rarely fatal and the patient eventually recovers after developing a highly robust immunity to participation.