Having used both nickel silver and brass rail, I give the edge to nickel silver for both appearance and reduced (not eliminated) problems from oxidation. Having also lived in a variety of climates, I have experience the fact that brass oxidation rate varies tremendously with climate - and so results using brass rail are going to vary tremendously, too.
Running trains frequently breaks down oxidation, at least in HO scale and bigger. I've said this before, when in living in humid Northern Virginia with no air conditioning and a brass rail layout, running HO trains for a half hour twice a week was sufficient to keep the oxidation at bay. Admittedly it was a small HO layout (4x6), so ensuring trains passed over all the main trackage repeatedly was easy. But keeping the oxidation off the spurs was always a problem. If I didn't run trains on the main twice a week, I had to clean the track before they would run properly. Which is why I recommend that if you are going to use brass rail, use it where your trains run frequently - not on isolated spurs and sidings that only get used occasionally.
I had/have the same experience with oxidation of brass wheels and tender bolsters on steam engines. Models that saw frequent use had no problems. Engines that were run once every few months had to have the tender wheels and tender truck bolsters cleaned before they would run decently.
Yes, brass seems to work quite well for outdoor layouts. My theory is that the mass of the G trains easily breaks down the oxidation. After the initial cleaning in the spring mentioned, occasional running will do the trick.
Dirt is common to both nickel silver and brass, so neither has an edge there.
DCC is the other elephant. DCC requires far better electrical contact than DC does. Momentary interruptions upset the decoders unless they are equipped with keep-alive circuitry. And even though nickel silver oxide conducts (sort of), it conducts poorly enough to not be friendly to DCC operation, where it might be just good enough for DC. Hence the history of track cleaning efforts and solutions. In the '50s and '60s there was plenty being published on how to keep brass track clean and conducting. The cleaning pushed died down a little in the '80s and '90s as nickel silver replaced brass, and more and more locos had flywheels and all wheel pickup installed. Then the coming of DCC has made keeping track clean a big deal again.
I'm not going to touch the appearance issue other than to say that alone is reason to go with nickel silver for me (I not judging those who choose differently). I like a silver color on at least the inside edge of my rail head - and brass rail can't have it. Since I have no legacy brass track other than an oval that came with a garage sale AHM train set, and I lay most of my own turnouts, I gain almost nothing by trying to use brass track.
my thoughts, your choices
Fred W
THE DESIRE FOR EXCELLENCE by John Allen
Model rails are attracted to the hobby for quite different purposes. Some, whose jobs are over-exacting may find modeling a way to wind down. Others may find their life work under-utilizing their capabilities or even boring and use the hobby to stimulate their abilities and push interest. Quite naturally these two diverging reasons will produce different effort on the part of the modeler.
A model rail surgeon friend once told me that the hobby had much need to him, beyond the pleasure and satisfaction of building a good model. Often, when a difficult operation was to be performed the next day, or complications of a patient caused him great anxiety; he couldn't get the good night's rest necessary for the next day's efforts. He found that working on his model railroad or on a model took his mind off these anxieties and he could unwind and get a good night's sleep. Though this doctor builds fairly exacting models, this was of secondary importance.
The superb trolley and interurban modeler, Bill Hoffmann, once told me that when he was a young man he was making a periodic visit to a dentist. In the course of conversation they both found out that the other was a model builder and during the visit, the dentist showed Bill a few of his models. Bill was shocked by the lack of craftsmanship and never went back. He reasoned that anyone who took so little care wouldn't be a good man to work on his teeth.
Maybe there is a lesson to be learned here. Perhaps the dentist was a good craftsman in his profession and used modeling crudely as a means of relief. However, if one is in a profession that requires care and exactness, and enjoys fun modeling or painting with a broom with what appears to be tar; one shouldn't let his customers see the results. I know I would be reluctant to have any work requiring skill and precision, done by one who models clumsily or without care. I don't mean he would have to be concerned as much as if he were building competition models, the time and effort may not be worth his while, but that work which he does, should be done with care and good craftsmanship. This seems to be the general rule: The careful craftsman in his business, also is careful in his modeling efforts.
Fine models, layouts and train operation requires dedication and effort. The trite cliche, "It doesn't matter what you do in model railroading as long as you are having fun," has little meaning to the modeler who cares. He finds little pleasure in doing poor craftsmanship and using little thought. He strives to push himself a little beyond his normal ability.
This doesn't mean the cliche quoted above isn't valid. Of course you should pursue a hobby as you see fit and no one has a right to degrade your results, unless you are working on a common enterprise with others. A hobby is for the satisfaction and enjoyment one receives, and if you get your kicks out of crude or silly modeling, it only concerns yourself. No one has a valid argument on how you choose to use your spare time provided you don't harm or damage the efforts of someone else. Our models and layouts are not in competition and should take the form that interests us alone.
The fact that I may half hide a full sized replica of a snake in my scenery, or a much oversized miniature alligator pursuing an unconcerned fisherman in a boat, is there because it amuses me, not that I don't know better. I may not take some aspects of the hobby too seriously, while overly concerned with others. I assume and recognize that others have the same rights.
Fine model building, layout construction and good train operation doesn't come easy, and when you see it, it's the result of considerable time, thought and effort.
Allegheny2-6-6-6The trite cliche, "It doesn't matter what you do in model railroading as long as you are having fun," has little meaning to the modeler who cares.
With deference and due regard to the late Mr. Allen, that statement goes both ways. The intricacies of fine modelling will appear to be belaboured and fastidious to someone who has not the materials, the time, or the skills to achieve that level of detailing, and so it will have little meaning. What would be the point of striving to achieve someone else's notion of 'fun' if it isn't what you want to do now?
We have people responding here already saying, "Been there, done that, it is no longer necessary for me to find pleasure in the hobby." So would we say that they are now moving retrograde? Why should that be anathema to those striving for greater perfection any more than it should be for those who are happy with a plunked built-up and some train items? We have range to move, all of us, forward, backward, sideways, up and down. We can't all be Tiffany lampshade specialists or Tifanny would have no market value. Leave the pretty stuff to Tiffany, and let those who can afford it do it....afford in detail and time. The rest of us can still read by a $1 light bulb behind one of those pleated $10 lampshades.
-Crandell
selector We can't all be Tiffany lampshade specialists or Tifanny would have no market value. Leave the pretty stuff to Tiffany, and let those who can afford it do it....afford in detail and time. The rest of us can still read by a $1 light bulb behind one of those pleated $10 lampshades.
We can't all be Tiffany lampshade specialists or Tifanny would have no market value. Leave the pretty stuff to Tiffany, and let those who can afford it do it....afford in detail and time. The rest of us can still read by a $1 light bulb behind one of those pleated $10 lampshades.
Philosopher/poet, eh Crandell?
Mark
sheeeesh--
Simple differences, people---simple differences----
Seems some people need to convert others to their own idea(l)s----
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
I believe one should always move forward in the hobby and strive his own level of greatness. John Allen would be the first person to tell you not to compare yourself to anyone else in regard to modeling. If you start out with the circle of track around the Christmas tree and make the big move to the ping pong table or the 4x8 sheet of plywood and put together a half dozen kits that make you smile because you built em yourself and you bought a half dozen more built ups and added your own little touches and it made you smile because you did that and you weather your cars and locomotives so that they look like the were splashed in a mud puddle but you look at em and smile because you did that or they come out looking exactly like the real thing then thats all that matters. When one stops moving forward he either sits idle and stagnates or goes backwards. I'll forever choose the forward option. I know a very well respected modeler who is in his mid 80's and can out work most of us on a daily basis and he always tells me when he's discovered a new way of doing things or a better way of doing this. Have you heard about this new fangled gizmo is one of his opening lines when ever the phone rings and he is on the other end.
One can still move forward and learn new ways and strive to make himself a better modeler and still have fun doing it. The key is when you stop having fun it's time to put the choo choo's away and grow old. As stated simple difference and maybe a different type of track but all leading to the same destination the pursuit of fun and enjoyment.'Like it or not weather you use brass, nickle silver, plastic or wood, model N, Ho, or G gauge or live steam we're all model railroaders playing with our toy trains.
Playing = Fun which is not work. Work is serious which is not fun.
selector Allegheny2-6-6-6The trite cliche, "It doesn't matter what you do in model railroading as long as you are having fun," has little meaning to the modeler who cares. With deference and due regard to the late Mr. Allen, that statement goes both ways. The intricacies of fine modelling will appear to be belaboured and fastidious to someone who has not the materials, the time, or the skills to achieve that level of detailing, and so it will have little meaning. What would be the point of striving to achieve someone else's notion of 'fun' if it isn't what you want to do now? We have people responding here already saying, "Been there, done that, it is no longer necessary for me to find pleasure in the hobby." So would we say that they are now moving retrograde? Why should that be anathema to those striving for greater perfection any more than it should be for those who are happy with a plunked built-up and some train items? We have range to move, all of us, forward, backward, sideways, up and down. We can't all be Tiffany lampshade specialists or Tifanny would have no market value. Leave the pretty stuff to Tiffany, and let those who can afford it do it....afford in detail and time. The rest of us can still read by a $1 light bulb behind one of those pleated $10 lampshades. -Crandell
Crandell,Many serious modelers including me never took John serious because of John's whimsical freight cars so bowed they would not be in service.The other whimsies such as dinosaurs,giant gators etc just killed the believability of other wise fine layout..
I went through my "serious" stage years ago and it about drove me batty.I got to the point where I was wondering who I was trying to please me or was I modeling because of the magazine "experts" constant ragging on improving your modeling or was I just modeling to out do the other fella?
I then did some serious thinking what I wanted this hobby to be for me.I settle on close enough/good enough modeling and never looked back and after my first heart attack I just what to enjoy the hobby my way which is common sense modeling and after I almost had my fires dropped with my last heart attack I just want to enjoy life and common sense modeling.
Still I can rip any locomotive or layout apart on prototypical errors or improper scenery.
I have no problems with advance modelers unless they try to push their modeling philosophies on me as a must.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
selector Allegheny2-6-6-6The trite cliche, "It doesn't matter what you do in model railroading as long as you are having fun," has little meaning to the modeler who cares. With deference and due regard to the late Mr. Allen, that statement goes both ways
With deference and due regard to the late Mr. Allen, that statement goes both ways
And, in a way, that is what it is. After a point in the discussion, or whatever debate regarding the hobby you get to, the cliches and the parroted statements come out. I've seen enough debates on the "why do these guys insist on ------------------" go into the cliches that I do find that, whether we like it or not, it does not really matter to the guy/gal who engages in the hobby in their own manner. So I ask--why do we need to know why someone does 'X' as opposed to our way anyhow?
My wife does Interior Design. This field is getting into the same types of arguments we are. Except theirs is more about the role of the client--is s/he supposed to allow the "knowing subject", the one with the certification, to run "roughshod" over their--the clients house? A lot are saying "NO!!" --in spades--but there are some---
It is, after all, a hobby at base---
Bob,That's a new one. I didn't know that "politically correct" = "more accurate modeling". Anyways, please note that on this thread, no one has even suggested that people rip up their brass rail and replace it with N/S. The original question was someone trying to understand why people buy brass track these days, not why people still use it on their layout that they've had for 20 years or more. That's a significant difference.
tangerine-jack,Oookay, if you say so. You must have extra special G-gauge track...either that or it rains track cleaning fluid in Virginia. Here in Massachusetts, my next-door neighbor had an outdoor layout for several years in his back yard, and I bought all the track off him when he moved. I used to go over and see his outdooor railroad once or twice a month, and without fail he had to clean the track every time in order to get his Aristo-Craft locos to run (I know because I was down on my hands and knees helping him clean the rail). And, last I saw that rail in my shed, it's still a golden brass color even after several years of total exposure and 5 more of being stored uncovered in an unheated, uninsulated shed.
It is certainly true that newer doesn't mean better, but older doesn't mean better, either.
If you're going to make this statement: "Sure, newer models are more realistic and have finer detail, but many models way back when were just as good (and made in USA putting Americans to work)." Prove it. I don't think such a thing exists. For one thing, how can a model that's less realistic and less detailed be "just as good"? Unless you are talking about drive quality, which in that case I call nonsense on that idea. Please post an example of an HO-scale Made In USA loco out-of-the-box (no modifications) that has a "just as good" a drive as an Atlas/Kato/Genesis out-of-the-box drive. And remember, it's not just about pulling power. It's about drive noise, electrical performance, flywheel coasting, smoothness, and creeping ability. I'll wait for you to find one...
Oh, and while I'm waiting, I'll clue you in: I've used brass rail...in fact, a lot of brass rail. In addition to my neighbor's G-gauge layout, there was my club layout that I operated on for 8 years. The old section, built with brass rail, was constructed in 1953 and was in continuous use until 1998. And in addition to that was my first layout...which was my father's 4x8 layout that he built in the early 1970's (see: The Railroad That Grows). When I was in High School, I expanded that layout with a 9-track yard, and two arms that reached 16' in each direction...all built with brass rail because that was the cheapest rail available. I used that layout for 4 years until I moved. And today, my new 25x50' layout is all N/S rail...except for my "Boston" yard which is actually salvaged from my club's old 1953-era layout that I bought for $20. Yep, it's brass rail, and I've been using it for the past 5 years. So I think I have some experience with brass rail, thank you very much.
Barry,What I was trying to say that this is a hobby is entirely based on imitating something else. If it wasn't, no one would ever have a problem with accuracy. People would be running "trains" that look like bars of carved soap (diesels), paper towel tubes (steam), or toaster ovens (electrics). Boxcars would be made from USPS Express Mail boxes (they are free), tank cars would be old soda bottles, and flat cars would be a piece of 2x4".
So if this hobby is about imitating something else, why wouldn't you want to imitate it as closely as possible? Sure, there are many reasons not to even try to achieve such goals, not the least of which is simply the wish to pick up a model and not have it break apart in your hand. But what if there was a model out there that had all the detail of a Kadee boxcar but had the robust nature of an Athearn BB...and could be had for free? Who wouldn't want that? Well, according to the vibe I'm getting here on this forum, there seems to be several here that would turn their collective noses up at such product. That truly flummoxes me.
Not to get off topic too far, but about HSR... Some of the most strident anti-passenger rail people I've met online are railfans. Huh. Figure that...
tomikawaTT,Good ideas there for brass rail... However, would you buy it brand new for such purposes? That was the original point of this thread.
Archer1,If it doesn't matter at all to you, then why are you posting on this thread multiple times? As for me... I'm here at work, bored out of my skull because I haven't had a single customer come in yet.
As for modelmaker51's post... Sorry, but I think I'll take the word of a chemist over a modeler. Quite frankly, the idea that softer plastic wheels do not wear on brass rail but harder metal wheels do wear, simply baffles me. Friction takes it's toll on all wheels, no matter the material, but the harder a wheel is, the less wear it will have.
I think newer is better most of the time. Not all the time, but over half the time, yes, newer is better. Let me give you an example... The New Haven RR had 10 I-5 4-6-4 locos they ordered in 1937. In the following 72 years, there have been just 5 HO models made of this loco commercially: the NJ/Custom Brass version from the late 1970's, the W&R Importers version from the mid-1990's, the BLI Hybrid version from 2 years ago, the BLI brass version from 2 years ago, and the Precision Scale version from last year.
Now, according to the refrain that "older is better", my NJ/CB version should be the best one, right? Not quite. The NJ/CB only has half-wheel pick up, it was only available unpainted, it can barely pull it's tender, it has no lighting, there are several accuracy issues, and the gears can strip and fail with only light use. I paid $400 for mine in 1996. Meanwhile, the new BLI hybrid version is has all-wheel pick up, available in 3 paint schemes, can pull a 10-car train up a 3% grade, has forward, back up, and cab lighting, is much more accurate, and has had no drive failures that I've ever heard of. I paid $359 for mine two years ago. Now, which one is better...the old model or the new model?
If better = a more accurate imitation of the real thing, then I will continue to say what is "better." I'm sorry if that offends you, but you have to expect that in any hobby that involves making items that imitate other objects.
If you are in a helpful mood like you say I should be in, then why don't you help me figure out how to make the brass rail heads in my 1953-era freight yard look like steel?
"Protesting too much" usually means that one is secretly for the subject matter that they are publically arguing against. I can assure you that while I am a brass track user, I do not wish to be.
Dave V., Sure, I'll send you that PM. What the heck... I do not pretend to be a great modeler, but I certainly admire those that are. As the saying goes, I have champagne taste and beer income.
Brakie,You know you can paint and bury N/S track, too. You don't need fiber-tie track for that. BTW, you are the first person that I've ever heard in my 20 years in this hobby say they "like" fiber tie track. And for the record, my father's 4x8 layout was mostly fiber tie, so I have some experience with that, too.
And yes, many if not all modelers do not accurately model prototype operating practices. Mainly because our cars do not roll by themselves well at all. Most non-hump yards are flat switched where kicking cars is common. This really can't be done well in model railroading. And yes, that's not even touching the obvious violations of the rule book and of the laws of physics (a switcher coupling into a cut of 10 empty freight cars should not instantly accelerate those cars to 5 mph, and so on). My reason is that there is a fine line between work and fun, and each person's line is in a different place. Taking 12 actual hours to do a local freight for some is fun...for others, not so much.
Paul A. Cutler III*******************Weather Or No Go New Haven*******************
Paul -
To answer your question (to me): Even though I'm new to THIS forum, I'm not new to modeling or the Internet. Actually far from it. My point was and still is, that there are always people who need to express their opinions or beliefs in a way to discredit other's. Since this is a hobby, your opinion is only valid for you and people who think the way you do.
I never said that one was better than another (except in my experience), only that the actual difference in performance isn't anywhere near as some "experts" would have you (us) believe.
Accuracy in reproduction is relative. You can spend thousands of dollars and thousands of hours making every single box car virtually indistinguishable from it's 1:1 counter part and never get a chance to run any trains. If that's what floats your boat, that's great and I mean that. For others, actually running the trains is more important than making sure every grab iron is weathered. A little less detail isn't a bother, it's just a more practical consideration. That might (or might not) be the diference between a model railroad and a static display diorama.
The problem with your posts professing the utmost in detail/realism or perfection, is that it excludes or simply turns off a lot of newer and possibly younger participants or just those with different reasons for playing. The nice thing about modeling, is that we as modelers have choices or poetic license. If some one thinks brass track "looks" better in a given setting or some items look better without weathering, that's their business. I gotta tell ya, I have a number of aircraft models with ordinance loads or markings that never existed, and (hope your sitting down) some finished layouts that aren't ballasted and make zero operational sense, but IMHO, they look pretty cool.
I'm sorry you're bored at work, but if I may offer you some advice from my experience (as a modeler and former forum moderator), it works to every one's best interest, if you try to help them with what they want to do, rather than argue and debate why one flavor is better than another. The former leaves everyone with a better feeling and the latter is little more than being an Internet troll.
Archer
Paul3Please post an example of an HO-scale Made In USA loco out-of-the-box (no modifications) that has a "just as good" a drive as an Atlas/Kato/Genesis out-of-the-box drive. And remember, it's not just about pulling power. It's about drive noise, electrical performance, flywheel coasting, smoothness, and creeping ability. I'll wait for you to find one...
I had a bit of fun with this one---I seem to have a habit of doing the take it apart--figure out how it runs--then rebuild the dang thing, maybe with a better motor or what--but still...
some locomotives that I have are somewhat older than, say, 15 years old. Still use them--rebuilt motors and gearing and all, just like some rebuilt prototypes are rebuilt. I don't leave the old motors in them when I buy them--old locomotives are my rebuilding/bashing fodder.
Paul3As for modelmaker51's post... Sorry, but I think I'll take the word of a chemist over a modeler. Quite frankly, the idea that softer plastic wheels do not wear on brass rail but harder metal wheels do wear, simply baffles me. Friction takes it's toll on all wheels, no matter the material, but the harder a wheel is, the less wear it will have.
Generally that kind of plastic wheel vs brass/NS rail vs metal wheelset vs brass/NS wheelset discussion goes round and round doen't it? It seems to me that this almost can be a situation of --"it depends---". IMO the issue of the quality of the material--both plastic and steel can mess things up a tad too. I've had plastic wheelsets that disintegrated within a year of getting them--just as I had corrosion issues with steel wheelsets---both involving impurities in the material. And this is without throwing in the brass issue with the ongoing concern with corrosion now--
Paul3And yes, many if not all modelers do not accurately model prototype operating practices
I can see this on my layout--all flat--with no drainage--yet most yards do have some degree of incline--
Paul3Not to get off topic too far, but about HSR... Some of the most strident anti-passenger rail people I've met online are railfans. Huh. Figure that...
I'm not even going to try to figure that----
I will say this. In most things I'd agree with you about newer = better but I am a little more likely to be a bit more frugal if my own budget won't let me---maybe do the save thing--or just buy a little cheaper and rebuild----you should see all the motors and stuff in here---