Face it, to get published, your layout has to be a "finished" product (which goes against the "a layout is never done" edict), so with more free time on their hands, maybe the wives are like, "ok, this thing is close to being done (in her eyes), so she breaks out the 5 years and holding "honey do" list.
Marlon
See pictures of the Clinton-Golden Valley RR
Nice autumn scene, CNJ831. Trees exhibit natural color and texture. The scene avoids the intense "polka dot" look.
Mark
I will add amen to that. You created a realistic, believable scene there. It isn't Oklahoma, but it is beautiful. You do indeed have an artists eye.
Bob
Well, of the guys I know or am familiar with who might be considered "Master" layout builders and who have had their layouts and articles published, they break down like this:
-Fritz Milhaupt, Publications Editor, Pere Marquette Historical Society, Inc.http://www.pmhistsoc.org
I think the main reason the folks you consider "masters" don't post here are for reasons this forum probably doesn't want to hear.
...but I'll elaborate anyway.
There's a high turnover of people here such that the very same topics are revisited in a cyclical manner (of order 4-6 months). The high proportion of novice modelers means very, very basic (to an expert or "master") questions are asked over and over, oft times answered incorrectly by other novices. This can become very tiresome after a few short years to long-time established modelers/members.
Then there's the fact that these forums are tremendously diverse... We're taught that diversity is good, and generally it is, but if your narrow interest is, say, NKP in HO in 1954 (or Pennsy in N in 1956), and you want to be around like-minded modelers from whom you can gain information (instead of just giving it), this would not be your place.
For me the perfect forum is one where I can learn as much or more than I can teach. AND, this is just me personally, but I prefer ones where the standards of spelling, punctuation, and grammar are fairly consistent.
There's a HUGE range of skill level here. We all have to start somewhere, but if you're a "master" you're probably not interested in what the guy just starting out has done with EZ Track and grass mat. There's nothing wrong with starting simple, but remember, these so-called "masters" have been at it for decades. And I won't mention the usual personality conflicts or flame wars.
Understand that NONE of these points is an indictment of trains.com; it serves a very important purpose for a broad audience. However, many of you will find after a number of years that the Internet is big enough that as your interests narrow, you can find forums that attend to your very specific interests.
I can tell you that I've run across many of the "masters" elsewhere on the internet, but I'll respect their privacy by not elaborating further.
Modeling the Rio Grande Southern First District circa 1938-1946 in HOn3.
Dave VollmerI think the main reason the folks you consider "masters" don't post here are for reasons this forum probably doesn't want to hear.
Dave: I see you have a new can opener.---I think I know a couple---
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
Sir Maddog:Imagine a forum, for master model railroaders exclusively. What should they talk about, they have a proven record of knowing just about every aspect there is in model railroading? No open questions, no answers missing...
What a boring forum this would be!!!
------------------------------------------
Actually those forums are not boring at all..There are many lessons to be learned from these modelers if one wishes to improve his modeling..
On the RR-L you will meet some very heavy hitters to include several well known authors..I know..That's one of the forums I moderate on..
And truth be known as a average joe modeler at times I feel out of place with those advanced modelers/craftsmen but,that doesn't hinder me in answering questions.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
AND, this is just me personally, but I prefer ones where the standards of spelling, punctuation, and grammar are fairly consistent.
watt r u talked about dave?????
-Kosmo
"And the sons of Pullman porters and the sons of engineers ride their father's magic carpet made of steel..."
Dave VollmerThere's a high turnover of people here such that the very same topics are revisited in a cyclical manner (of order 4-6 months). The high proportion of novice modelers means very, very basic (to an expert or "master") questions are asked over and over, oft times answered incorrectly by other novices. This can become very tiresome after a few short years to long-time established modelers/members.
This is a point where I find myself archiving some of the information.As well, I'm usually doing a lot of research---for a protolance yet, sheeesh--and if I can't find an answer then I'll ask. After a few years I can see that happening--it can get kinda tedious
Dave VollmerThere's a HUGE range of skill level here. We all have to start somewhere, but if you're a "master" you're probably not interested in what the guy just starting out has done with EZ Track and grass mat. There's nothing wrong with starting simple, but remember, these so-called "masters" have been at it for decades
And after decades of doing MR'ing it will be rather difficult to distill all that knowledge into bite sized pieces. Hence, probably, we need to make seminar threads on more specific topics? Who knows. Generally though, the idea might be worth some kicking around.
Dave... I guess with your definition of the perfect forum ...... then by definition the forum for novices can't be of much use..... there will be no teachers there to answer the concerns and problems. And if they move into the next forum up the scale, then the teachers "masters" leave that forum.
I'm sensing from most replies that the reality is that "masters" don't much care about perpetuating and nurturing the lowly in the hobby with their expertise. They want to publish, or build, or withdraw, or embrace their arms around their accomplishments in their own isolated world. To heck with where the future modelers might be stumbling around for enlightment in this forum because they ask "dumb" questions.
Maybe that's right... but a sad, sad happening for the hobby.
I'm..... still ......hoping.... that just maybe.... there are still a few lingering in the forum who realize it is as great a gift to reach out and share their talent even in this medium, as it is to build their wondrous empires using those same talents. They have been blessed to attain high levels, but its also a blessing to give back. Probably their fathers did that back when they knew little, and asked dumb questions about the Lionel which just went in circles.
Hal
donhalshanksDave... I guess with your definition of the perfect forum ...... then by definition the forum for novices can't be of much use..... there will be no teachers there to answer the concerns and problems. And if they move into the next forum up the scale, then the teachers "masters" leave that forum. I'm sensing from most replies that the reality is that "masters" don't much care about perpetuating and nurturing the lowly in the hobby with their expertise. They want to publish, or build, or withdraw, or embrace their arms around their accomplishments in their own isolated world. To heck with where the future modelers might be stumbling around for enlightment in this forum because they ask "dumb" questions. Maybe that's right... but a sad, sad happening for the hobby. I'm..... still ......hoping.... that just maybe.... there are still a few lingering in the forum who realize it is as great a gift to reach out and share their talent even in this medium, as it is to build their wondrous empires using those same talents. They have been blessed to attain high levels, but its also a blessing to give back. Probably their fathers did that back when they knew little, and asked dumb questions about the Lionel which just went in circles. Hal
Your response Hal, seems really unfair to both Dave and the people you wish to attract.
1. Dave didn't define any kind of perfect forum, he simply put forward some thoughtful and honest reasons why, due to the type of activity and inquiry this forum draws, some people may not be inclined to participate.
2. To lay the future success or failure of the hobby as a whole at the feet of those who do not spend their time posting here is simply silly.
One should not quickly judge people because their actions are not plastered across your computer screen. Unless you know the person personally, you have no idea that they are not sharing their skills and knowledge with interested parties.They may prefer to pass along their knowledge in person, in print, or at a conference.
In any way, it is their hobby as well, and I think it unfair to suggest that anyone has a responsibility in how they choose to spend or enjoy their free time through their hobby.
I will readily admit that I find the song the troubadours of doom for this hobby sing incessantly tiring, and laying blame for something that hasn't, and odds are won't, occur(red) seems rather pointless.
I'm trying to model 1956, not live in it.
I look at some of the threads near the top of today's discussion, and I wonder why anybody with half a brain would stay with this forum (I guess I've got less than half a brain - I've been accused of that before) - much less a master model railroader.
One thread asked how many cars a Z locomotive could pull. One experienced modeler thought it was a dumb question, and attempted to make a joke about it. Didn't go over well. Over half the words in the thread address whether or not his response was appropriate, not the initial question.
Another thread asks about his new momentary toggles not working correctly. Took about 5-6 incorrect, misleading, or left field responses before a responder correctly identified the OP had the wrong toggles.
I've answered about 5 threads in the past two weeks by typing the key words into Google, and getting answers in the 1st three Google listings - half the time one of the first three Google listings is a previous trains.com forum thread!
Now I appreciate that many would rather ask their questions in forums like this instead of spending money for a personal reference library or on magazine subscriptions. But I do expect by the third or fourth question that those who want to use the Internet as their reference library would have developed a bare minimum of search skills.
The only good thing I can say about this forum is that the number of dumb questions, misinformation, sad attempts at humor, and folks looking to be offended keeps the forum active and seldom boring.
just my thoughts - worth every penny you paid for them
Fred W
Hal, you missed my point.
The perfect forum for Dave Vollmer at this point in his life is one in which he can learn as much as he can teach.
I did go on to say that these very forums serve a very important purpose. And, for a few years, I shared my 25+ years experience in the hobby with many, many novices. In that respect, I did exactly what you suggest I inferred I would not do. I've been a member here for nearly 6 years, and was very active from 2005-2008.
I never mentioned "dumb questions," merely basic and repetitive ones.
There are other reasons for my personal declining participation here that go beyond simply the recurrence of somewhat basic questions. That alone is not objectionable.
I was merely laying out a number of possible reasons why the so-called "masters" do not seem to appear here at trains.com. And, by the way, these people ARE publishing in MR, so they ARE trying to help other model railroaders perfect their skills; they just choose not to do so via this medium.
Medina1128 Face it, to get published, your layout has to be a "finished" product (which goes against the "a layout is never done" edict), so with more free time on their hands, maybe the wives are like, "ok, this thing is close to being done (in her eyes), so she breaks out the 5 years and holding "honey do" list.
M1128:
Actually, it doesn't have to be done at all! An awful lot of the layouts in feature articles aren't finished, and some aren't even close to being fully operational! Take a look at the track plan sometimes, and note where the photo-location arrows are. Sometimes you see them all clustered around one or two areas of the layout. There's usually a good reason for that!
Plenty of the fine layouts in MR have acres upon acres of benchwork or bare plaster where the camera isn't looking. All you need for a layout feature is a good story and enough finished layout for a dozen or so good photos. Sometimes the rolling stock shown is only a selected, superior subset of the modeler's entire fleet. If you want to submit a Trackside Photo, all you need is enough finished scene to fill a single photo frame.
It's easy to get the impression that every layout in MR is fully finished, but it's just not the case...but that's the photographer's art, to bring out a world that may or may not entirely exist in reality.
On another note, I was just reading a back issue which featured one of the invisible masters of years past - Cliff Robinson. He rarely wrote anything, and of course there was no World Wide Web back then. Here is a classic example of somebody who was having too much fun to want to write about it all - and the fact is, writing, as well as photography, is a separate field. His ideas got out because they were adopted by other modelers who did write about their work.
To answer a question posed quite a while back on this thread, one way that layouts get into Great Model Railroads is that people send me pictures of their layouts and ask if I'd be interested in featuring them. You'd be surprised to learn how many of the layouts we publish get into the magazine by just that approach. So if you think you've got a model railroad that other readers would like to see, give me a try.
However, please write to me about this offline, at asperandeo@mrmag.com. I'll be glad to hear from you.
Andy Sperandeo
Editor, Great Model Railroads
Andy Sperandeo MODEL RAILROADER Magazine
fwrightThe only good thing I can say about this forum is that the number of dumb questions, misinformation, sad attempts at humor, and folks looking to be offended keeps the forum active and seldom boring.
Now that is funny! And so true LOL.
Hmmm....I wonder if I was offended on this post. Should I whine now or later?
Dave and Scarpia .... some apology from me is definitely in order. I was probably having a bad day and feeling frustrated that the forum and people with honest questions were taking hits from a lot of responders, and disappointed that maybe as many experts weren't in the mix as I had assumed.
From Scarpia's response.......I realize I didn't do a very good job of expressing my thoughts about it and let my frustration reply instead. I didn't really mean to single out Dave personally or to put the masters as responsible for the whole hobby by not participating. I realize it is what it is..... the masters have moved on in expertise and it is through their mag articles, books, reviews, advice, photos, sharing, etc that really does put quality into the hobby and they are a lot of what makes it survive and flourish.
Dave, I hope you continue in the forum for a long time. I always respect your answers to questions and topics, and some of your advice has been real pertinent for my RR projects. And thanks for keeping me honest.
I too feel the pain of those repetitive threads over time and people not using the search. I have learned that I can check the forums daily, and in about 20 minutes read the subject lines, pass over the repeats and not interested ones, check some for the advise or what I can contribute, and sign out. Doesn't take a lot of time.
I'm back to modeling, Hal
donhalshanksI too feel the pain of those repetitive threads over time and people not using the search. I have learned that I can check the forums daily, and in about 20 minutes read the subject lines, pass over the repeats and not interested ones, check some for the advise or what I can contribute, and sign out. Doesn't take a lot of time
And the "masters" are probably doing the EXACT same thing. They read what interests them. The 856th post this year about big trains on sharp curves probably doesn't, a question on operations or a scenery or detailing an engine or car probably does. The "masters" aren't doing anything differently than anybody else on this list. There are several thousand members of this forum and maybe 100 post on any given day. Nobody notices that Joe Railroader hasn't posted anything in 3 months because his name isn't recognizable, but because people recognize the name, people notice that John Master hasn't posted this past week.
Maybe rather than the the question "where are the masters?", the better question is "where is everybody else?"
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
DrilinefwrightThe only good thing I can say about this forum is that the number of dumb questions, misinformation, sad attempts at humor, and folks looking to be offended keeps the forum active and seldom boring. Now that is funny! And so true LOL. Hmmm....I wonder if I was offended on this post. Should I whine now or later?
As I always say, "Whine early and whine often!"
LocoI can only remember like one thread that was started from a guy who actually had his layout in the magazine....I bet they have their own super secret board!!!! YAH... that's got to be the deal. Their own Master Model Railroad forum .... The inner sanctum!
PA&ERR Driline fwrightThe only good thing I can say about this forum is that the number of dumb questions, misinformation, sad attempts at humor, and folks looking to be offended keeps the forum active and seldom boring. Now that is funny! And so true LOL. Hmmm....I wonder if I was offended on this post. Should I whine now or later? As I always say, "Whine early and whine often!" -Kosmo
Driline fwrightThe only good thing I can say about this forum is that the number of dumb questions, misinformation, sad attempts at humor, and folks looking to be offended keeps the forum active and seldom boring. Now that is funny! And so true LOL. Hmmm....I wonder if I was offended on this post. Should I whine now or later?
HMMN---Gripe Grumble Complain Kvetch Grouch-----but whine? Meh---
pastorbob I will add amen to that. You created a realistic, believable scene there. It isn't Oklahoma, but it is beautiful. You do indeed have an artists eye. Bob
In order to model Oklahoma, all you'd need is a flat sheet of plywood. J/K!!! Don't send those hate letters..
I thought the same thing when my job forced me to move to Kansas. But, I always have the basement to ease the pain of not being back home.
Just a thought - Since many on here don't actually give out their real names, how do we know we aren't actually talking to a 'master layout poster'
Jon
Sweethome Chicago is now on Facebook
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Did I just hear an illusion pop?
Texas Zepher, wow man.... I never intended, nor expected the thread to take on such a life of it's own..... And I certainly have the greatest respect for our elderly modelers. But at the same time, I also wish for them not to go quietly into the night. They have way to much to offer!
Jon, that is a fair question. You probably have access to NMRA website which includes the Master Model Railroaders. Look up number 138, Robert Miller.
If being published in MR is a qualification, see the April 1984 issue.
But again, you are probably correct, as many of the MMR's I know do post on the forums, but under aliases. I use one because it reflects my vocation, and I quit posting my MMR afterwards because some were critical that I did so.
Bob Miller
http://www.atsfmodelrailroads.com/
I don't get this post... As I see it we are surrounded by talent here... Most every one here has one skill set or another in this hobby that is better than thatof the guy or gal next to him, most all of us are willing to help each other... I'm not sure what a master medeller is, nobody can do it all better than anybody else... But there are some who have brought it to high art, but who establishes that benchmark...
I've been a model railroader for years, but only recently decided to build a larger more permanent layout with facility for operations, I'm not much of a layout designer and I can tell you first hand, there are people here who are masters of that trade and some fine students of the lessons in John Armstrong's books... I frustrated the lot in planning my railroad, having to be told some things several times, ultimately you have to learn, or decide not to.... Where your personal railroad is concerned, make it what you want according to your vision... I haven't been at it for 40 or 50 years, but I've enjoyed the time I've spent...
If you have specific questions there are people here who have the answers, don't look for them to tell you what you want to hear... There's a certain plain spoken Dutchman here who gives good advice and solid answers that might lack in the cushiony warm and fuzzy departments, but the information is very solid and can be directly applied, the same can be said for a lot of other posters... and if you think there are no masters here, you haven't looked very far... This place is an invaluable resource...
two cents from an opinionated author and model railroader
PB&J RRI don't get this post... As I see it we are surrounded by talent here
You took the words right off my Keyboard. There are a lot of master here, may not have the plaque but sure have the talent! These are pictures from this site of are members layouts, all look like they should they should be published.
All master in my mind.
Cuda Ken
I hate Rust
cudakenYou took the words right off my Keyboard. There are a lot of master here, may not have the plaque but sure have the talent! These are pictures from this site of are members layouts, all look like they should they should be published.
Unfortunately it took 6 pages for reality to appear.
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/