Sir Madog Imagine a forum, for master model railroaders exclusively. What should they talk about, they have a proven record of knowing just about every aspect there is in model railroading? No open questions, no answers missing... What a boring forum this would be!!!
Imagine a forum, for master model railroaders exclusively. What should they talk about, they have a proven record of knowing just about every aspect there is in model railroading? No open questions, no answers missing...
What a boring forum this would be!!!
Actually, in the real world that's quite far from the truth. I participate in a couple of such forums mainly populated by advanced hobbyists, many of them well known through their published articles in MR and elsewhere. There are never a lack of interesting and lengthy threads on all manner of subjects.
Believe me, new modeling techniques are being developed all the time by these guys, ideas you probably won't see mentioned in MR until years from now. Likewise, just seeing how different modelers approach the very same say structure model, scenery problem, etc. (and describe just how it was overcome) is quite incredible and an absolute wealth of new information.
Ain't nothing "boring" on such "masters" forums!
CNJ831
I'm a "master" but not in model railroading! I've been active in WWII armor and ballistics research, armor war game design (with models, not computers) and slot cars (building cars that win races om a national level). No one has anointed me, but I published a book and have been recently maintaining a website about 12 volt racing motors. I believe the NMRA has some sort of anointment process for "master modelers" but I don't knowe how it works. Unlike building cars that win races, I can't vouch for the judgement that goes into Master status. I've seen plenty of work in MR magazine that was competent and complete, but uninspiring, just as I have seen work that was inspiring, but possibly not up to "master" level, whatever that means.
I'm not too worried about the masters, or where they do their thing. I think mastery of model railroading is in the eyes of the beholders, as there is no real way to measure it objectively.
Driline AggroJones Fugate is still around here. I think? No he left. The moderators here scared him away
AggroJones Fugate is still around here. I think?
Fugate is still around here. I think?
No he left. The moderators here scared him away
Is that a fact? Does Joe know this? You better PM him quick to let him know.
Maybe it's because he has started his own ezine? and forums? and videos? and giving presentations at shows?
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
Saddle up! Ace and I are moving on.
CNJ831 you are a Master Modeler your layout looks as good or better so have you tried or been ask to have it in MR.
Russell
CNJ831Actually, in the real world that's quite far from the truth. I participate in a couple of such forums mainly populated by advanced hobbyists, many of them well know through their published articles in MR and elsewhere. There are never a lack of interesting and lengthy threads on all manner of subjects. Believe me, new modeling techniques are being developed all the time by these guys, ideas you probably won't see mentioned in MR until years from now. Likewise, just seeing how different modelers approach the very same say structure model, scenery problem, etc. (and describe just how it was overcome) is quite incredible and an absolute wealth of new information. Ain't nothing "boring" on such "masters" forums! CNJ831
Actually, in the real world that's quite far from the truth. I participate in a couple of such forums mainly populated by advanced hobbyists, many of them well know through their published articles in MR and elsewhere. There are never a lack of interesting and lengthy threads on all manner of subjects.
... and they keep it amongst themselves, only the adept shall know... The illuminati of model railroading?
What the heck did the NMRA think, when they created that nonsense of "master model railroader"
It´s the work that honors the maker, not the title!
Sir Madog What the heck did the NMRA think, when they created that nonsense of "master model railroader" It´s the work that honors the maker, not the title!
The NMRA's Achievement Program (AP) does just that, it acknowledges achievements made by model railroaders. The AP is divided into many parts, and if a member demonstrates his abilities in a certain number of them, then he achieves the highest one of Master Model Railroader (MMR). So it is his body of work that earns the title.
The many facets of the hobby are represented by the different certificates in the program - Master Builder of Cars, Locomotives, Scenery and Structures; Electrical and Civil engineering; sevice to the hobby awards - Author, Association Volunteer and Association Official; and operating proficiency in Model Railroad Dispatcher. I think there is at least one more that I cannot recall at the moment.
The requirements are well spelled out for each award, and they are not given out but earned. The MMR title is awarded to modelers who achieve seven certificates, which must be spread around the categories. It shows the recipient is not only a good modeler but has also done his part to help others in the hobby.
Please explain to me how this NMRA program is "nonsense".
Bob Boudreau
CANADA
Visit my model railroad photography website: http://sites.google.com/site/railphotog/
I agree with Boudreau, besides, hes had photos posted in MR since the early 80s anyway,I've always liked his work. BILL
RailphotogSir Madog What the heck did the NMRA think, when they created that nonsense of "master model railroader" It´s the work that honors the maker, not the title! The NMRA's Achievement Program (AP) does just that, it acknowledges achievements made by model railroaders. The AP is divided into many parts, and if a member demonstrates his abilities in a certain number of them, then he achieves the highest one of Master Model Railroader (MMR). So it is his body of work that earns the title. The many facets of the hobby are represented by the different certificates in the program - Master Builder of Cars, Locomotives, Scenery and Structures; Electrical and Civil engineering; sevice to the hobby awards - Author, Association Volunteer and Association Official; and operating proficiency in Model Railroad Dispatcher. I think there is at least one more that I cannot recall at the moment. The requirements are well spelled out for each award, and they are not given out but earned. The MMR title is awarded to modelers who achieve seven certificates, which must be spread around the categories. It shows the recipient is not only a good modeler but has also done his part to help others in the hobby. Please explain to me how this NMRA program is "nonsense".
Another positive aspect of the MMR program is that it encourages participation in the NMRA, clubs, and other group activities. In fact, a certain level of participation is *reqired* to satisfy the criteria. This not only helps the prospective MMR, but those around them.
Just looked over the program on the NMRA's site. It seems like it could use a little updating, as many of the "electrical engineer" criteria are a bit antiquated. I can't imagine them adding "participate in an internet forum" as a goal, though.
Midnight RailroaderTrainManTyDoes that mean that whenever I get my layout published in MR (I've written the article, but I need more photos to include in it!) then I can't post here anymore? It may mean that, once you get paid to write, you'll decide not to give away your stuff anymore.
TrainManTyDoes that mean that whenever I get my layout published in MR (I've written the article, but I need more photos to include in it!) then I can't post here anymore?
Does that mean that whenever I get my layout published in MR (I've written the article, but I need more photos to include in it!) then I can't post here anymore?
It may mean that, once you get paid to write, you'll decide not to give away your stuff anymore.
Bingo!
-Kosmo
"And the sons of Pullman porters and the sons of engineers ride their father's magic carpet made of steel..."
...There's no secret society. No elitist group. In fact, I strongly believe in sharing knowledge and skill.
-Ryan
Ryan,you said it right.
Thanks for your post, Ryan. Many people won't give it out straight. I happen to think it is an uphill slog for everyone on discussion lists. Those who are malcontents, angry, judgmental, snippy, egotistical, envious, lazy, and a host of other characeristics have as tough a time expressing themselves so that others understand as do you and people of other leanings, inlcuding the truly accomplished and knowledgeable.
It is no less difficult for moderators. While the several 'camp's are sniping at each other, to the extent that such camps exist, the moderators are going to displease at least one of them whenever they influence the discourse by a deletion, edit, or some other intervention where one or more of them necessarliy feels they have been interfered with or marginalized.
If I were someone highly sought for some hard-won ability, I don't think I would keep too much of a profile except on venues where I was treated respectfully. But as you do, I would try to give back, to coach and to mentor, so that the abilities were always fresh and continually developed for the good of the greater body of people in the pursuit.
I also think that the vast majority of those who walk heavily on discussion forums would turn out to be vastly different if face-to-face with some of those with whom they routinely contend. The lamb will only taunt the fox from the far side of the stream.
-Crandell
Ryan, and others, I hope that maybe, just maybe we can change that sort of thing. Get folks back involved.... I for one will do my best to facilitate such exchanges. (perhaps that's a part of the reason why I started the thread). But I do understand the burdens, railroading is not really my area of expertise (YET!!!) but I've been in them shoes. In another life I was one of the "go to guys".....
In any case, glad you posted.
I've always had the utmost respect for those who do the research and publish the findings. Without that activity, much information would remain forever locked away in obscure archives. Too much of model railroading is devoted to aping the work of so-called "masters", by building models of models, rather than models of real things. I value original thinking and I value quality model making. I don't value titles and honorifics. Sure, they are fun to receive, and fun to give, but the real value in the hobby lies elsewhere.
We can all be masters, if we want to put in the work to improve our modeling techniques and our knowledge of whatever we are trying to model. It takes time and effort. The titles, badges, and the funny hats (if any) are irrelevant.
NOOO!!!!! I need my funny hats!!!!!!!!!!!! That actually happened as I had a train cap on the other day and someone said that to me.
I have to post one more time on this. I just received my new issue of MR and opened it up to see a really good Santa Fe layout. I looked at the photos and the trackplan, because he is modeling the Santa Fe in Oklahoma and Kansas, roughly the same area, and the same time period. After admiring the modeling work, I saw the words "N" scale. Wow! It sure fooled me, and the builder is an Austrailan, certainly not easy modeling the Santa Fe from "down there". So from an HO modeler to the N scale community, again, wow!
Note to Sammy Carlisle, thought I was looking at your layout at first.
Bob
There are guys who post on here that give advice when they have no experience and there are other guys who speak with authority bred from experience. I guess one has to read between the lines. When someone like Joe Fugate or Bob Grech offer techniques, we pay attention. Others.................... well,nuff said. I also pay attention to advice with MMR behind their name because its initials they've earned. I myself am not a MMR, BILL
selectorI also think that the vast majority of those who walk heavily on discussion forums would turn out to be vastly different if face-to-face with some of those with whom they routinely contend. The lamb will only taunt the fox from the far side of the stream.
That's what I have said many times. Unfortunate isn't it. Like I've been told (I believe by you) it should be ignored. Maybe they will change or go away. (Last sentence was mine not yours)
As for the moderators, tough call on who is taunting and who just used a poor choice of words that they meant one way but reads different. Someone will inevitably take it wrong.
To Ryan Reed, it is unfortunate for us all that that kind of stuff happens. By driving a "Master" off of the forum is a price all of us who listen pay. Like they always say it's the few that ruin it for the rest.
The forum should not be a coddling forum but an encouraging forum. Unfortunately some say encouraging and coddling are the same. If in addition to the suggestions for improvement a person is improving then tell them so or if they do something correct then tell them so. That's not coddling that's encouraging. Oh and just plain old fashioned polite. The object is to help someone and in order to help someone they also need to know what they are doing correctly. That's not arguable, ask any educator and they will tell you the same.
Todd
Central Illinoyz
In order to keep my position as Master and Supreme Ruler of the House, I don't argue with my wife.
I'm a small town boy. A product of two people from even smaller towns. I don’t talk on topic….. I just talk.
Of course, there is always the possibility, however slight, that these "Masters" whose work we all admire so much, might actually have lives and thus have better things to do than spend their every waking minute posting on forums...
Just a thought...
Geared SteamIs that a fact? Does Joe know this? You better PM him quick to let him know.
Yes it is. If you you were paying any attention at all to his previous posts...you'd know. I'm not going to get into it here.
I would guess they are too busy working on their layouts and writing articles about them to waste time posting messages on a discussion forum.
On a computer science forum, we lost all the good serious masters because people wouldn't stay on topic and insisted on "chatting". I've always been surprised on this forum at how long the more or less off topic threads so. Post something serious and one is lucky to get discussion and stay on the first two pages for more than a day. Post something frivolous and the thread hangs around for weeks. Just go look at some of the current "more popular" threads.
Why spend 15-60 minutes posting a message that is going to get booted to page 4 in two days?
CNJ831 Sir Madog Imagine a forum, for master model railroaders exclusively. What should they talk about, they have a proven record of knowing just about every aspect there is in model railroading? No open questions, no answers missing... What a boring forum this would be!!! Actually, in the real world that's quite far from the truth. I participate in a couple of such forums mainly populated by advanced hobbyists, many of them well known through their published articles in MR and elsewhere. There are never a lack of interesting and lengthy threads on all manner of subjects. Believe me, new modeling techniques are being developed all the time by these guys, ideas you probably won't see mentioned in MR until years from now. Likewise, just seeing how different modelers approach the very same say structure model, scenery problem, etc. (and describe just how it was overcome) is quite incredible and an absolute wealth of new information. Ain't nothing "boring" on such "masters" forums! CNJ831
Not to sound too dumb here, but what are some of those other forums? I'd love to learn some of that new information.
There are dozens of forums on Yahoo Groups. They vary in the activity but the range of subjects is staggering.
Railroad Line Forums is heavily into craftsman structures. If you want to see highly detailed buildings and treatises on weathering structures, etc., this forum has that.
The Yahoo Group Rwy-industrial-ops is about the only only heavily trafficed list that deals with operations in any depth. Other lists might have a thread once or twice a month, if you want to know about signalling, rules, train orders, operating your layout prototypically, what industries use and supply, that's the place.
For those interested in overseas stuff, RM-web forums is very interesting. The Brits are very much into incredible detail.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
csxns CNJ831 you are a Master Modeler your layout looks as good or better so have you tried or been ask to have it in MR.
Actually, I was approached by one of MR's editors back in the mid 1990's (as a result of a number of my layout photos appearing in MR in TSP) asking if I'd be interested in preparing something. I passed on the offer at the time since I was about to start my current layout, which would be to even higher standards. Unfortunately, progress on the HHRR (it's about 2/3's done) in the past year, or two, has proven progressively slower and slower. I probably should have availed myself of that earlier offer!
CNJ831 csxns CNJ831 you are a Master Modeler your layout looks as good or better so have you tried or been ask to have it in MR. Actually, I was approached by one of MR's editors back in the mid 1990's (as a result of a number of my layout photos appearing in MR in TSP) asking if I'd be interested in preparing something. I passed on the offer at the time since I was about to start my current layout, which would be to even higher standards. Unfortunately, progress on the HHRR (it's about 2/3's done) in the past year, or two, has proven progressively slower and slower. I probably should have availed myself of that earlier offer! CNJ831
I hope you kept photos of that one!! That issue is a murphyism for sure! BTW--the fall colours are exactly to the colour values that we see around here. I'm kinda curious as to what you do to the trees to tone the things down
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
Hi!
You know, maybe the "master layout" builders are on this forum, but choose to remain anonymous and kind of stay in the background. On a similar note, the MR staff probably reads a whole lot of the postings here, but only post when the subject is near and dear to their hearts/expertise.
For what its worth,
Mobilman44
ENJOY !
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
blownout cylinder CNJ831 csxns CNJ831 you are a Master Modeler your layout looks as good or better so have you tried or been ask to have it in MR. Actually, I was approached by one of MR's editors back in the mid 1990's (as a result of a number of my layout photos appearing in MR in TSP) asking if I'd be interested in preparing something. I passed on the offer at the time since I was about to start my current layout, which would be to even higher standards. Unfortunately, progress on the HHRR (it's about 2/3's done) in the past year, or two, has proven progressively slower and slower. I probably should have availed myself of that earlier offer! CNJ831 I hope you kept photos of that one!! That issue is a murphyism for sure! BTW--the fall colours are exactly to the colour values that we see around here. I'm kinda curious as to what you do to the trees to tone the things down
Yes, some photos of my older pike (mainly in aging photo transparency format) do survive.
Re my autumn trees, for a number of years I dabbled in painting oil landscapes, which gave me a pretty good eye for judging colors in nature. The autumnal scenes on my layout, like the one below, take quite a while to create since I often keep making minor adjustments for weeks after the scene is "completed".
I do find that nearly all the basic commercial autumn foilage ground foam is much too harsh in color to look realistic. Mixing colors and toning them down it the key. Many of my trees are literally weathered to attain the right blend of hues and intensity, plus sometimes I will apply a final overspray of highly diluted reefer orange to a scene, a shade that is prevalent to most New England forests in the height of autumn.
I lightly started to read this thread and then got more interested as it unfolded. It saddens me if the "masters" might not participate, and I really hope they are but maybe incognito. After all, it is how my modeling gets better and I learn how to improve it.
Perhaps the "masters" need to approach it like that really good professor you had in school..... who passionately imparts all of his learned knowledge through the year and which goes in one ear and out the other of half the class. But the other half, well he knows they are better for having heard it and they prosper from it.... and then there are the one or two who embrace it entirely and are proteges and take his content to even higher levels in their lives.
Perhaps the "masters" should leave their solutions and replies in (perhaps for them this mundane) forum..... and then like that good professor.... walk out of the room when the lecture ends. He never hears the sneers, impersonations, bad jokes, discontent back at the dorm from the losers half..... but expects it if he does. And the winners half..... well they get the good grades and he is proud to have helped.... and the one or two, go on to get their PHD and accolades and trophies and the "Master" welcomes them into the best of best...... that "other" RR forum I'm light years away from understanding.
I don't know if the many of you who have answered my novice questions were masters or not.... but I know you gave me dawgone good solutions for my problems. And because of them, I continue to enjoy my RR modeling. Please don't leave me stranded.... hang in there like a good professor for me!
Hal
Driline Geared SteamIs that a fact? Does Joe know this? You better PM him quick to let him know. If you you were paying any attention at all to his previous posts...you'd know. I'm not going to get into it here.
If you you were paying any attention at all to his previous posts...you'd know. I'm not going to get into it here.
I was paying attention to his posts, matter of fact I went back and reviewed them, no where is a hint of what you claim, but I agree, not this is not the place.