Update on my progress and lessons learned.
1. Before starting out on benchwork or any high-dollar item, fully research and stick to a plan. After spending roughly $40 on a bad idea, I've corrected my mistake and now I am making progress. Need to follow my own advice from earlier. At least I can use my mistake for staging benchwork.
2. Progress can require high dollar purchases. To cut my benchwork, I had to replace my 20+ year old economy jigsaw. I did the right thing and purchased a high quality replacement and have been greatly satisfied with it.
3. DCC system is a needed expense. I did my researched and picked up a beginner system that can be upgraded to a larger/better system later.
4. Buildings are expensive. I'm trying to scratchbuild where I can and use kits where I can.
Nate
A truly great forum topic, Frank. Thanks for starting it.
First, a dumb question - 'twhite' said:
"4: Make sure that the loco facilities for your helper districts are at the BOTTOM of the grade."
Why ? Is this a suggested model-railroad operational constraint only?
At age 66, have been 'working' on my railroad now for about 4 years. Previous time was spent 'planning' and 'dreaming' - and too many other interests.
I should have built more small layouts early on - even if not 'perfect', or even well planned. That was the experience I did not really get, and now it shows. I have all these constraints in planning, from Tony K's desire for 1" subroadbed to John Armstrong's warnings about S-curves and other details. What I do not have is experience, experience, experience. That's one reason this forum is a good one for me.
One way to get that experience would have been to join a good club (good clubs are often very hard to find). Even tho I've always been a loner, I should have been in an organization where I could learn.
Contrary to some advice, I would have bought *more* Athearn blue-box locos, including more dummies (the unpowered kind, not the kind I represent..). I really like detailing these old units, adding DCC, and putting sound in a dummy accompanying a powered unit or two. I've purchased power pickup trucks for these, and even dummy chassis', from Athearn parts. Now, of course, blue box items are in short supply, and some are even priced up as collector items, a trend which will only continue.
So: my best advice to those starting out (younger) is to get some plywood, get some track, build something small to test your ideas. Do it again. Find out what YOU like, what works for YOU, so you have some experience with which to judge all these comments.
Party less.
And - you will have more fun in the long run.
Dick Chaffer / Bozeman / modeling MRL
When I moved into my current house which has more room, I essentially expanded my original track plan and made it double track without modifying the overall main line design. I had to retrofit staging where it would fit. I would have been better off to do more research, talked to people who know layout design, and started from scratch, maybe with a double deck design. When we moved in I had only partially completed one small section.
I would like to have more number 6 and 8 turnouts and fewer number 4s.
I have a freelance layout and have finally started to reletter cars for my own road. It takes a loooong time. Maybe should have picked a prototype.....
George V.
Things I have learned already and would recommend:
complete the trackwork and LABELLED wiring before doing scenery. Over-engineer these aspects.
use metal wheels, reliable couplers, high quality locos, and properly weighted rolling stock
Things I will try to do better next time:
narrow the scope of my pike. As much as I love modeling impressive mountain vistas, industry, and urban areas, it seems that "having it all" is very tough to pull off convincingly in my space (15 x 29 feet)
use hand thrown switches if they are close at hand. Sometimes I have to reach farther to press a button than to just throw the switch manually!
buy and use CAD software that permits simulated operation. Many years ago I bought track planning software for my first layout. I'm sure it is absolutely crude by today's standards. I was going to use it for my current layout but discovered it was so old (floppy discs) that my current computers couldn't use it. Rather than buy a more updated version, I planned my current layout on graph paper - while this proved to be quite accurate, it didn't let me run trains before building... and only afterwards did I realize that certain elements of my plan just weren't very practical...aka a pain in the rear.
Like some other posters, if I were starting the hobby today, I would go straight to DCC. However, I have so much DC, including my late father's stuff that I keep for sentimental reasons, it's not really in the cards to convert at this point. As a sidepoint, I've wondered from time to time if it's possible to have both DC and DCC on the same layout...simply remove the DC locos and put DCC locos on the tracks, turn all of the DC blocks "ON", and switch over to DCC power?
Cheers.
For me, the one thing I would do differently is focus earlier on only one road to model, maybe two. As much as I like railroads, having a huge collection of equipment is both time consuming and expensive. I often do not have the time to work on what I have to do let alone what I want to do. Additionally, I would go into DCC as well. Right now, I am so heavily invested in DC control that going DCC would be a huge expense that I can not afford. When I started in the hobby, DCC was nonexistant and there were no options. I would have gone digital at the first opportunity.
I would still maintain standards of using metal wheelsets, Kadee couplers and properly weighting and balancing my cars. It's just that I would probably do better by having fewer to maintain.
Keep 'em rolling!
1. Use only Kadee coupler.
2. Start in DCC.
3. Buy only DCC ready locomotives.
4. Model for better operations.
The rights of neutrality will only be respected, when they are defended by an adequate power. A nation, despicable by its weakness, forfeits even the privilege of being neutral. -Alexander Hamilton
If I were to start over:
- I wouldn't waste 20 years in the armchair. I could have gained valuable experience soldering feeder wires to rail without melting the ties or make my flextrack stay straight or ... or .... or ......
- I wouldn't collect HO stuff while not having the room for it.
- I would find a way around the limits of time, money and space by starting small, with a N-scale switching layout.
- I would invent a N-scale modular single track system like oNetrack or Fremo America-N way sooner and it would be around a Midwest theme instead of the desert southwest that all European modellers of American prototype seem so fond of. I like the Midnight & Still Later or Chicago Great Weedy way better than Uncle Pete or Shouldn't Paint / So Fast.
- I would discover Ebay sooner.
etc.
greetings,
A. Positively NO duckunders, even if it means reducing the amount of layout I could build and operate.
B. Better plan wiring schematic, color code wiring, and install drops on every bit of track, no matter how short it is.
C. Reduce the trackage volume. To model well, it isn't necessary to have everything on the layout.
Trainman
1. Try much harder to stick to my plan, not to have the latest and greatest, such as sound, just a good running layout.
2. Despite my age and eyes go with N so that the curves would be more realistic and more could be done with the available space.
Wow...I see the "duckunder" is a big issue and I see why. My layout is currently under construction and it is a "duckunder" that should be called a "bruise-under". I'll have to live with that. In the past my biggest mistakes were "Being in a hurry and bad planning". I should have stuck with the "6 P" program I learned in the Navy. "Prior Planning Prevents P*** Poor Performance". Now I'm taking my time, based on a good plan and enjoying it except for the bruises.
Except for the rebuild I am curently undertaking (raising the layout from 38" or so to 52" for easier access with a bad back) I personally would do just as your list suggests from the getgo and perhaps add the step of plan, plan, plan. However, according to my wife, I would have been better off not getting into the hobby at all and would be much more than $45k richer and have more time to spend with the dogs and grandkids. Oh, well, score a big one for the hobby and me.
mobilman44As I am answering this question today, I do have one regret...... I sure would not have bought that Bachmann Spectrum 2-8-0 that "threw the screw", knowing now that getting a replacement has turned into a major hassle (see my posting on the subject).
Sorry you had a problem with your Bachmann loco. I have only partly followed you posts on that subject, but as I am sure you are aware by now, Bachmann will make it good even if it takes a little time.
On that basic topic let me pose a thought.
I have 26 Bachmann spectrum steamers, all run great. Two were duds that had to be returned which did take about 3-4 weeks each on average. That woks out to a failure rate of 8%, and at 26 locos that may well be representive of Bachmann's failure rate.
But I have only 9 products from Broadway Limited. One came missing parts, and that one and one like it required modification to operate correctly. One other required modification to install the required working front coupler and all but the first two mentioned required some electrical modification to work well on my DC control system. So, that is a 100% failure rate if you look at from a "out of the box and on the track" point of view.
So should I exclude BLI from purchase list? I think not. They offer well detailed models of good mechanical quality of prototypes I desire for my layout, as does Bachmann. And, to be honest, I do some mods to the Bachmann locos to improve their performance as well.
They all get extra weight in the tenders and the RF noise capacitors removed from their circuit boards. Some get special mods to the tender drawbars to improve close coupling and clearance for the wiring harness. And many are kit bashed with different Bachmann tenders which sometimes requires additional wiring mods.
To the OP's question, after 40 years in this hobby I am now building my 4th layout. And I am very comfortable with ALL my choices. I would not change anything. I know what I want, I know what I like, I know what I can do (and what I can't or won't). I Know what I can afford and I have a very specific set of goals for my layout. These goals do not change randomly with each new product announcement or each new issue of MR or RMC.
Very happy an secure with my modeling choices,
Sheldon
Hi!
My current layout (under construction) is HO, ATSF, late '40s - '50s. As I am 65, I fully realize this is likely my last layout and am incorporating all the "wants" I can into it. And, I'm taking my time and hopefully "doing it right". The previous layout lasted 14 years, and I learned a lot about what works and doesn't and what I really want in a layout.
Regarding the hobby, what would I do differently??? Having been a railroad nut since the '50s, I sure would have held on to my Lionel stuff (including boxes). And conversely, I would not have bought all that Postwar Lionel in the '90s - at peak prices. Oh, I should have bought mint in box stuff rather than cars/locos in nice condition.
I would not have bought "one of every road" cars, and accumulated 600 plus (mostly still in kit form) just "because". And I sure would have saved my money and bought quality locos, rather than so many of the less expensive kind.
On this new layout, I migrated to DCC (Digitrax) and that was an excellent decision. I also bought a number of BLIs with DCC/Sound and that was a good decision as well. The many Stewart locos I have also were some of my better purchases.
As I am answering this question today, I do have one regret...... I sure would not have bought that Bachmann Spectrum 2-8-0 that "threw the screw", knowing now that getting a replacement has turned into a major hassle (see my posting on the subject).
Hey,
ENJOY,
Mobilman44
ENJOY !
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
Brass track, horn hook couplers, plastic wheels, dummy engines (They need to earn their keep, not be dead weight) Steam engines that don't pull well, Toostie Roll tank cars or advertising brands, tyco stuff, cheap trainset power packs that cannot feed a 2 pound motor 6 feet away. And crappy track switches or associated bad track work.
Buying whatever impulse stuff strikes... ooo this Pink Cancer Modern Boxcar from Athearn fits my 1930's era layout. It did earn a bit of Love from the Spouse so I guess it's worth it.
Finally but not last.
PREORDER. I am fed up and sick of Pre-Ordering something and then waiting 6 months, a year or two (If ever....) for the item to arrive. Especially with little to NO information developed other than either a paint drawing or a prototype photo.
Finally I know that the Hobby is a solitary pursuit. Do what makes YOU happy. NOT the Roman Legions worth of opinionated, jaded and hard to please rivet counters mixed in with those who think that a dusty .80 cent Athearn Kit from 30 years ago is worth 40 dollars at a show because everything sold today is ready to run.
But the single biggest gripe or mistake I ever made was caving in and buying a dummy athearn switch engine at 12.00 instead of paying 22 dollars for a powered one.I eventually coughed up 20 dollars for a powered chassis to power the dummy for a grand total far more than the engines were worth retail.
Then again I really feel badly for griping over 12 and 22 dollars when there are two modern DCC/Sound switch engines sitting in their boxes valued at 350+ retail. By the way, they are not made anymore, limited run only.
The Athearns were bullet proof and provided 25 years service and were still running perfectly the day I sold them both. Irv would have been pleased.
The switch engine saga took me... oh, 30 years or so to resolve.
FINALLY... we get to the number one issue.
DON'T. MAKE. A. 400 to 700 dollar STEAM engine and only equip with a dummy plastic coupler on the front end. Put a 1.80 Kaydee Whisker coupler and box there for crying out loud.
Then again the Economy being what it is those HO scale trains are just too expensive. I switched scales to partly reduce costs and to manage my limitations to still enjoy trains.
For instance. A 300 dollar DCC sound engine, controlled by 500 dollars worth of DCC stuff and associated electronics. Pulling 10-20 cars valued at 20 dollars each and topped off by a Rapido Caboose that will run you 60 dollars. (Ooo look at the pretty lights on the end.) that is about 1500 dollars for a train and something to run it minus track, bench work and scenery items.
And there are people who fill homes with these money-sinks. Ah well. Holiday season is here and here is to a happy train season!
1. I would narrow my time date.
2. I would concentrate on certain railroad names. For example BNSF
3. Buy Kadee # 58 couplers more prototypical looking.
4. Buy only Atlas, and Kato engines.
5. Buy Metal wheels (intermountain)
6. 3ft. aisles
7. No duckunders
8. Take your time laying the track, don't be in such a rush.
8. Buy wood, when you need it. They warp fast
9. Only use drywall screws, and screw from underneath. Not from the top
Hello everybody,
got to looking at my christmas lights. These led lights are 4 years old and have the large bulbs. They work great for lighting but the bulbs are too large for the HO homes. So took my side cutters and put on a pair of safety glasses and started cutting the bulb. Started cutting at the base where the clear part attaches to the green rubber. Just kind of nibbled away at the clear plastic cutting small small chunks from the now brittle plastic. It caused small pieces of plastic to fly around the room. Once enough clear plastic has been cut the entire clear decorative head head pops off. It exposes a 3/16 diameter diode.
So here is the thinking: The rubber on the bulb was kind of brittle and did not cut well but one should be able to expose the led with some careful cutting. Specially on a new string of lights. Also once the clear plastic has been removed you now have a small bulb that gives off enough light to nicely light up part or all of your structure.
This January when everybody is selling their christmas left over lights for cheap pick up a stringer and experiment. You might just get a light supply for your layout for cheap.
Hope it helps
Frank
"If you need a helping hand, you'll find one at the end of your arm."
Good grief - way too funny. Here are my top fifteen.
There's never time to do it right, but always time to do it over.....
I would not buy Model Power locomotives.
Wow, what a helpful thread, and just after I scrapped my 12 year old layout and started over swearing not to make the same mistakes again! Everyone's comments will help me not make the new mistakes I would have made if I had been left to my own devices. For example, I had decided to go with foam to make tree 'planting' easier but had not thought about how much easier underneath access is with hard shell - but how do you get trees in it?
The underlying principle I will follow is KISS, I tend to make things too complicated, overplaned, overdesigned, overbuilt. Secondly, everything must be accessible, I'm getting too old to climb, crawl, stretch or twist. But I am having fun, I've got that part down.
Thanks All,
Ernie C
Well, since I recently just "started over" on a new layout and new concept, I thought I would revisit my earlier post on this subject...
I would have: -Designed my layout completely on a software program which allowed me to actually operate trains on it like Auran Trainz.
-Designed my layout completely on a software program which allowed me to actually operate trains on it like Auran Trainz.
I actually did this to a small extent - just track and trains with no scenery. I used it to judge passing siding lengths.
- Gone with DCC right from the start.
Done! Already had it from my previous layout.
- Hand lay all visible trackage! I know, I know, hand laid track isn't as "realistic"as it doesn't have tie plates, the spikes are over sized etc... But there is just something about the look of hand laid track that is really appealing to me.
Alas, since I am sticking with tried and true construction techniques - cookie cutter sub-roadbed and cork roadbed - I won't be handlaying any track this time around.
- Planned the location for bridges better.
I did this right up front, something I failed to do on the PA&P layout. My bridges and their locations are included as part of my track plan - not an after thought.
- Run all under layout wiring BEFORE starting on scenery!
My new layout is based on the Milwaukee Road from Avery ID to St Paul Pass. It will be signaled with ABS! All wiring is going in before the hardshell scenery, even if I don't have the signals or detection circuits yet. When I get them, the wires will be there!
- Install ground throws at the same time I install the switch.
Because my layout will have overhead catenary, all switches will be operated via electrical controls in a fascia mounted control panel. The less hands reaching into the scenery the better!
- George
"And the sons of Pullman porters and the sons of engineers ride their father's magic carpet made of steel..."
I am just glad I am actually doing it.
da_krautWhat are your experiences?
Most of the advice given here -- even by myself -- is way beyond the comprehension of a 5 year old let alone their skill set. SOOOooo, I have to say that would have done everything exactly the same. Model Railroading is a learning experience. I certainly learn a lot from mistakes. If I hadn't done all those things "wrong" through the years, I would certainly not know nearly as much as I do now and I would probably either:
1. not be in model railroading and have other hobby interests.
2. be a snob who "knows" all these things that "experts" told me. Since I "know" them they have to be 100% right - now, tomorrow, and forever and no one can "know" something different.
Invested in Apple and Microsoft
Have fun with your trains
Perhaps On3 ??
I'm just building a H0n3 module.
Bigger!
Wolfgang
Pueblo & Salt Lake RR
Come to us http://www.westportterminal.de my videos my blog
fwright markpierce Trust my instincts ("gut") rather than the exhortations of others. (In hindsight, "gut" was right 98%, others' exhortations 2%. Never did follow my "gut" enough.) .... Mark To avoid repeating my learning experiences several times over, I need to use techniques and materials that I know work for me, rather than what is popular or frequently cited in the forums. Examples of popular stuff that didn't work so great for me: cork roadbed. Dries out and crumbles for me. Have proven this 3 times now. Use Homasote instead. extruded foam for subroadbed. Makes the trackwork excessively "thick" for layout designs that have elevated track, and makes access difficult for hidden track. Use good old cookie cutter plywood and thin shell scenery instead. This was my latest lesson learned. Atlas flex track and turnouts (especially Snap Switches!). Used to get trains running quickly. Takes too much effort to lay and adjust for derailment-free operation. Flex track is gauged unnecessarily wide, creates wallowing for steam locos on straight track. Tunrouts invariably need adjustments at frogs, points, and flangeways. Unpowered frogs cause stalling of my small locos. Instead, devote the time to hand laying the track from the get-go and save the money. stacked foam scenery. I'm not good at visualizing where to carve after stacking a bunch of pieces. It's much easier for me to create a shell to the terrain form I want using window screen or similar. I can remove the screen or use it as the scenery shell base. I can even replace the screen with thin (1/4" fan-fold works well) foam bent to the shape I want. Thin shell scenery gives much better access to the underside of the layout for hidden track, wiring, switch machines, and uncoupling ramps. getting all the track working correctly first. I find adding scenery often changes where I want the track to be. And I enjoy laying track into already partially developed scenery. If decent access was planned in, laying track directly on the layout rather than at the bench works well, and is more fun. I also found layout planning must account for scenic separation of various track levels, actual size of planned structures, and most importantly, sight and access lines for planned switching locations. Even if using magnetic uncoupling, I need to be able to see the magnet location markers to accurately spot cars. Reach-in turnout throwing or uncoupling requires access without bumping delicate trees and structures. Finally, know that I will change and learn as time and the layout progresses. Remember to have fun despite the occasional rework as I change what I want or how I want to do things. It's a hobby - not everything can or should be totally planned in advance. model railroading is fun Fred W ....modeling foggy coastal Oregon, where it's always 1900....
markpierce Trust my instincts ("gut") rather than the exhortations of others. (In hindsight, "gut" was right 98%, others' exhortations 2%. Never did follow my "gut" enough.) .... Mark
Trust my instincts ("gut") rather than the exhortations of others. (In hindsight, "gut" was right 98%, others' exhortations 2%. Never did follow my "gut" enough.) ....
Mark
To avoid repeating my learning experiences several times over, I need to use techniques and materials that I know work for me, rather than what is popular or frequently cited in the forums. Examples of popular stuff that didn't work so great for me:
I also found layout planning must account for scenic separation of various track levels, actual size of planned structures, and most importantly, sight and access lines for planned switching locations. Even if using magnetic uncoupling, I need to be able to see the magnet location markers to accurately spot cars. Reach-in turnout throwing or uncoupling requires access without bumping delicate trees and structures.
Finally, know that I will change and learn as time and the layout progresses. Remember to have fun despite the occasional rework as I change what I want or how I want to do things. It's a hobby - not everything can or should be totally planned in advance.
model railroading is fun
Fred W
....modeling foggy coastal Oregon, where it's always 1900....
YES, YES, YES, YES, YES!
just got done with the hidden staging yard. This is the fourth level and next time the lowest level will be the first installed. What a job when you only have 4 inches trying to lay track and doing the wiring. So far a six axle diesel will run on the tracks without issue so next will be a mixed freight. See how that works.
Then it is onto wiring up the turn out machines followed by lights. Gotta love this hobby, one can choose to operate or build different aspects of the layout.
Wow, one of the best threads for me. I'm still plugging away at my new train room and will take many of your thoughts to heart.
Lots of good information in this thread that I am taking to heart since I am currently in "starting all over" mode. The good thing is that I only had about 20 feet of mainline down on my double deck N-scale layout before I realized I needed to hit the reset button. My reason for doing this is my one and only contribution to this thread:
1. Don't start building with an incomplete track plan!
I went ahead and laid track in the first section of my layout, completely wired and everything, when I came to an important conclusion: I could not come up with what to do where the track should go on the rest of the layout. I knew the general towns and industries I wanted to have and even where I wanted them to be, but when it got time to put pencil to paper I could not get everything in my head to work out on a plan. When reality sunk in, I stopped construction and went back to the drawing board--and that is where I am right now in week three of abiding by the rule I stated above. In my case, I switched my prototype to a different section of the CSX and this time have found that the scenes I want to model will fit my space and they are going on paper (well, computer) before I lay the first piece of track. I am surprised that I could not design myself out of the corner I painted myself into on the original plan, but I am also surprised at how much enjoyment I am getting out of this second design. I guess the higher level rule that applies here is to not get ahead of yourself regardless of how eager you are to move forward. Jamie
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