I live in northeastern ohio, what's a local hobby shop? R. Staller
ATLANTIC CENTRAL CNJ831Now there are certainly at least some folks who can still afford to do that currently, but their numbers are far, far smaller than in the past. The really big difference, at least for most guys, is that in the past the extra/disposable cash you normally carried around in your wallet would more than have covered the total cost of the unexpected purchases. The expenditure was considered no big deal and we're talking real paper money, not plastic. I have to disagree. All of your statements about how much "other" people have to spend are not based in a facts as far as I can see. How do you know how much others are spending? Or where they spend it?
CNJ831Now there are certainly at least some folks who can still afford to do that currently, but their numbers are far, far smaller than in the past. The really big difference, at least for most guys, is that in the past the extra/disposable cash you normally carried around in your wallet would more than have covered the total cost of the unexpected purchases. The expenditure was considered no big deal and we're talking real paper money, not plastic.
I have to disagree. All of your statements about how much "other" people have to spend are not based in a facts as far as I can see. How do you know how much others are spending? Or where they spend it?
AAAHH!! But how many people are going around charging it to their credit card? I still think there is a huge difference in terms of how it is done---I save up the hard cash and buy it by cash. Someone else may buy the same thing using credit card when they may be nearly maxed out--is this a good thing? Maybe not?
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
It has been debated on here before, and documented in great detail, that ajusted for inflation the products offered today in this hobby are no more expensive than they have ever been. And considering the improvements in detail and loco performance, things may well be cheaper today than in years past by any sort of "value" test.
Now as to how much disposable income people have today, that may be a different story. But that too has a lot to do with individual life styles and personal situations. Buy a Ford instead of a BMW and you will have lots to spend on trains. Do you really need that $200 month cell phone habit? And yes, the government takes more today than they ever have.
If, and I do mean IF, high prices are effecting model train sales, its not the price of the trains, but the price of a host of other things reducing that disposable income. If you where walking around with $50 in 1968 and buying that Athearn F7 for $20 was no big deal, THAN, AJUSTED FOR INFLATION, you should be walking around with about $700 today and buying a a new Genesis F7 for $200 should still not be any big deal.
It is not the fault or responsablity of the model train industry that there has been a shift of wealth in our economy or that peoples habits, wants and needs have changed. Many people "need" stuff today that they did just fine without 20 years ago. It appears to me that market forces in our hobby have lowered prices and kept them as low as possible.
I posted earlier that I am not an impulse buyer, never have been, never will be. Sure, while in a retail store, I may find and purchase something not on "todays" list. But I only buy items that fit the layout theme and have purpose for the modeling goals I have set for myself. Never bought anything just because it was "shiny".
Having been in retail businesses myself, and having worked in several hobby shops, I know that most people come in looking for specific items. If your store is well stocked and your prices reasonable, you will sell stuff. If not, you won't. Too many small shops today are poorly stocked. WAY back in the early 80's when I worked as the train department manager of a full line hobby shop, we saw where the industry was going. We saw then, with the increase in available products that was starting even then, that only big stores with low prices (from buying dirrect), with very complete inventories of current product, would be able to survive. We were right. We looked into such plan, but found no investors willing to take the risk.
So now big stores, who also sell mail order/internet rule the day and smaller product lines are now sold direct to consumers also by mail order/internet. I could have told you all this in 1985. It is an absolute fact that less markup is being made by the model train industry today than was being made in 1968. Wholesalers have been largely eliminated, giving their 20% to the customer and the lower overhead of mail order is reflected in all sorts of heavily discounted products.
So model train prices today are just fine compared to the rest of the economy. Fix the economy or earn more money.
Sheldon
tatansDoes "impulse" mean you go out shopping with a wad of money and NOT know what you are looking for?? When I need something, I take some money and go to the store and buy that screwdriver then go home, what other method of shopping is there?? you mean there are people out there that stuff money in their pants and head to the LHS and wander around until they see something they fancy, then simply buy it?? GEE that must nice, I wonder what planet I've been living on. How can you go out and buy crap if you don't know what you want (need) ? ?
Does "impulse" mean you go out shopping with a wad of money and NOT know what you are looking for?? When I need something, I take some money and go to the store and buy that screwdriver then go home, what other method of shopping is there?? you mean there are people out there that stuff money in their pants and head to the LHS and wander around until they see something they fancy, then simply buy it?? GEE that must nice, I wonder what planet I've been living on. How can you go out and buy crap if you don't know what you want (need) ? ?
Yep that's pretty much the way I do it - only at train shows. Part of the fun of this hobby for me is buying neat stuff. I usually limit my purchases to things that fit my scale, era, road modeled, etc.; but sometimes I stray - I have a fondness for billboard reefers and Maine 2 footers. By taking what I can afford to spend with me I don't use the plastic and wind up with a huge credit card bill. Once I spend what's in my pocket, I'm done - not that I have to spend it all and frequently don't.
Enjoy
but I still wonder if many folks peruse eBay and buy on impulse today?
CNJ831
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I suspect that may be so..The thrill of winning a auction I suppose?
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I know this I am not impulse buying like I did simply because I am breaking old habits of buying IPD short line boxcars instead of the cars I really need...
I am using Kato Unitrack that not so long ago I turned my nose up at...It fills the necessary need of easy bullet proof track laying..I had a rough time trying to use rail joiners on Atlas N Scale track due to the limited use of my right hand and I didn't want to use standard "snap" track.
I believe many of us is still spending mega bucks except now we are more conservative by buying the needed items and a extra or three..After all look how fast some locomotives and car sell out.
I also suspect some may be using their extra "pocket change" for DCC and DCC/Sound decoders.
Which will it be a $20.00 car or a $24.00 decoder or a $120.00 DCC/Sound decoder?
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
CNJ831I still wonder if any folks peruse eBay and buy on impulse today?
No, not really. Mostly my problem is in the touchy feely world of a hobby shop. I shop more carefully online and especially E-bay because I'm waiting to get stung. (I have not yet). But when I'm in arms length of the car or structure I can touch it, feel it,smell it and it's calling my name, that's when it gets tough!
Todd
Central Illinoyz
In order to keep my position as Master and Supreme Ruler of the House, I don't argue with my wife.
I'm a small town boy. A product of two people from even smaller towns. I don’t talk on topic….. I just talk.
tatans Does "impulse" mean you go out shopping with a wad of money and NOT know what you are looking for?? When I need something, I take some money and go to the store and buy that screwdriver then go home, what other method of shopping is there?? you mean there are people out there that stuff money in their pants and head to the LHS and wander around until they see something they fancy, then simply buy it?? GEE that must nice, I wonder what planet I've been living on. How can you go out and buy crap if you don't know what you want (need) ? ?
Well, not exactly, but in the days of yore (and yore wasn't all that long ago - maybe as late as the mid 90's) it was an every day occurence that, while visiting the LHS to get something you had planned on buying, if in wandering around the shop (and you always did) and you unexpectedly came across some new model(s) or item(s)...and that definitely included things up to and including Athearn, or similar then up-scale locos...you'd think nothing of picking the item(s) up without a second thought.
Now there are certainly at least some folks who can still afford to do that currently, but their numbers are far, far smaller than in the past. The really big difference, at least for most guys, is that in the past the extra/disposable cash you normally carried around in your wallet would more than have covered the total cost of the unexpected purchases. The expenditure was considered no big deal and we're talking real paper money, not plastic.
It was certainly nothing at all out of the ordinary to come home from the LHS with several extra new freight cars, perhaps a couple of structure kits, or maybe a new but not really necessary loco. Typical reasoning for the purchase: I bought it 'cause I just liked the look of it. Did it dozens of times and so did all my buddies. It was almost a ritual! Today you simply don't see that sort of purchasing going on in most hobby shops. On-line purchasing isn't nearly the same situation but I still wonder if any folks peruse eBay and buy on impulse today?
If I wasn't, I wouldn't have 25 locomotives..
Marlon
See pictures of the Clinton-Golden Valley RR
I email both of my hobby shops with orders and wait 6 months to two years for some items when they are announced. That way Im certain to have these new items sold to me when they get here from China.
Athearn had a set of tankers for Acid service. I have been waiting on these for almost a year now. They should arrive sometime within a month.
Otherwise I go into the store with a small list of items to buy specifically or perhaps a list of needs from the workbench.
Once in a while I spot something and pick it up instantly as a impulse knowing it will not be there after I leave.
For me the bottom line is manufactor's product announcements followed by part numbers suitable for pre-orders. That completes my next hobby shop run months or years ahead of time.
A little of both I usually go in with a list and come out with a longer list than I started with ,
Barry said:Great for the collector--not so much if your impulses tend towards the small switchers etc----
Indeed..That's why you should buy what you're looking for if/when you find the fool thing or lament later..
Of course if one is willing to pay the full MSRP there are still some available.
http://www.amherst-depot.com/atlashoS1S2S3S4.htm
"are you a list or impulse shopper"
Definately a list shopper. Very specific goals, seldom waver from them.
BRAKIE There are RTR and kit cars that cost less then the $30.00-40.00 quoted by CNJ..These are the cars that falls into "impulse buying" of the average joe modeler..Of course some impulse buying of the higher end cars happens as well especially with today's limited production runs.. There is a new saying...Buy now or lament later.
There are RTR and kit cars that cost less then the $30.00-40.00 quoted by CNJ..These are the cars that falls into "impulse buying" of the average joe modeler..Of course some impulse buying of the higher end cars happens as well especially with today's limited production runs..
There is a new saying...Buy now or lament later.
That has become an issue right across the board here. Buy now or lament later is the new battlecry of the beleagured hobbyist who is no longer in the center of the hobby market. That fellow is now the marginalized one. If you are looking for small steam--be thankful Bachmann is still around. If you are looking for ALCO's S series --good luck finding them. But if you're looking for UP Big Boys, challengers, 4-12-2's and such---hey, You got 'em!!
Great for the collector--not so much if your impulses tend towards the small switchers etc----
nw2 pastorbob CNJ831 The days of impulse buying at the LHS are essentially dead, at least from what I can see. There was a time when the average joe would come away from every hobby shop visit carrying at least several items bought simply because they caught his eye, but that was before the latest freight cars cost $30-$40 each and passenger cars $60+. Personal income for most hobbyists has fallen woefully behind the escalating prices of new model railroad equipment and has made most model railroaders far more selective regarding their purchases. Today's average hobbyist is much more likely to search high and low on the Internet for the absolute best possible deal on an item, rather then walk into the LHS and impulsively buy something he spots at full retail price. CNJ831 Certainly I am as average as most when buying. I buy from the mail orders, two in particular, I buy my covered hoppers these days direct from Tangent and Exactrail, I even buy a diesel or two mail order, but I visit the LHS I go to in KC, who has a great selection, once a week. This week for example, I walked in to buy some paint and some misc. items, he had some Exactrail covered hoppers on the shelf, I grabbed them at retail. They will be renumbered. Same is true with the IM MTC reefers. If I want it bad enough, I will pay retail. But my list is usually short, my impulse adds to it at the store. Before some of the "I build everything because I am an old time modeler" folks chime in, I think I do pretty good at age 73, with arthritis in my hands and wrists. I still do a lot of pulpit supply, I still work on the computer, I still do my yard work, etc. But I do not build kits anymore and I don't appologize to anyone because I buy RTR now. I would rather spend my remaining time on earth working on the layout itself and having op sessions. I spent my years scratchbuilding and etc. but no more. So spare me the superiority stufff. Bob ?? From your response I think you miss the point. He's talking about impulse buying and how its affected by the higher $$ not the "kit builder vs RTR " stuff
pastorbob CNJ831 The days of impulse buying at the LHS are essentially dead, at least from what I can see. There was a time when the average joe would come away from every hobby shop visit carrying at least several items bought simply because they caught his eye, but that was before the latest freight cars cost $30-$40 each and passenger cars $60+. Personal income for most hobbyists has fallen woefully behind the escalating prices of new model railroad equipment and has made most model railroaders far more selective regarding their purchases. Today's average hobbyist is much more likely to search high and low on the Internet for the absolute best possible deal on an item, rather then walk into the LHS and impulsively buy something he spots at full retail price. CNJ831 Certainly I am as average as most when buying. I buy from the mail orders, two in particular, I buy my covered hoppers these days direct from Tangent and Exactrail, I even buy a diesel or two mail order, but I visit the LHS I go to in KC, who has a great selection, once a week. This week for example, I walked in to buy some paint and some misc. items, he had some Exactrail covered hoppers on the shelf, I grabbed them at retail. They will be renumbered. Same is true with the IM MTC reefers. If I want it bad enough, I will pay retail. But my list is usually short, my impulse adds to it at the store. Before some of the "I build everything because I am an old time modeler" folks chime in, I think I do pretty good at age 73, with arthritis in my hands and wrists. I still do a lot of pulpit supply, I still work on the computer, I still do my yard work, etc. But I do not build kits anymore and I don't appologize to anyone because I buy RTR now. I would rather spend my remaining time on earth working on the layout itself and having op sessions. I spent my years scratchbuilding and etc. but no more. So spare me the superiority stufff. Bob
CNJ831 The days of impulse buying at the LHS are essentially dead, at least from what I can see. There was a time when the average joe would come away from every hobby shop visit carrying at least several items bought simply because they caught his eye, but that was before the latest freight cars cost $30-$40 each and passenger cars $60+. Personal income for most hobbyists has fallen woefully behind the escalating prices of new model railroad equipment and has made most model railroaders far more selective regarding their purchases. Today's average hobbyist is much more likely to search high and low on the Internet for the absolute best possible deal on an item, rather then walk into the LHS and impulsively buy something he spots at full retail price. CNJ831
The days of impulse buying at the LHS are essentially dead, at least from what I can see.
There was a time when the average joe would come away from every hobby shop visit carrying at least several items bought simply because they caught his eye, but that was before the latest freight cars cost $30-$40 each and passenger cars $60+. Personal income for most hobbyists has fallen woefully behind the escalating prices of new model railroad equipment and has made most model railroaders far more selective regarding their purchases. Today's average hobbyist is much more likely to search high and low on the Internet for the absolute best possible deal on an item, rather then walk into the LHS and impulsively buy something he spots at full retail price.
Certainly I am as average as most when buying. I buy from the mail orders, two in particular, I buy my covered hoppers these days direct from Tangent and Exactrail, I even buy a diesel or two mail order, but I visit the LHS I go to in KC, who has a great selection, once a week. This week for example, I walked in to buy some paint and some misc. items, he had some Exactrail covered hoppers on the shelf, I grabbed them at retail. They will be renumbered. Same is true with the IM MTC reefers. If I want it bad enough, I will pay retail. But my list is usually short, my impulse adds to it at the store.
Before some of the "I build everything because I am an old time modeler" folks chime in, I think I do pretty good at age 73, with arthritis in my hands and wrists. I still do a lot of pulpit supply, I still work on the computer, I still do my yard work, etc. But I do not build kits anymore and I don't appologize to anyone because I buy RTR now. I would rather spend my remaining time on earth working on the layout itself and having op sessions. I spent my years scratchbuilding and etc. but no more. So spare me the superiority stufff.
Bob
?? From your response I think you miss the point. He's talking about impulse buying and how its affected by the higher $$ not the "kit builder vs RTR " stuff
Maybe you are missing Bob's point?
A lession I have learn more then a few times since the begining of limited runs.
twhite Ya know, Mark, as one whose 'impulsive' buying for a while actually started RESEMBLING the "Cosmopolitan Central", I am in complete agreement with you. These days, I've learned to focus my 'impulses' toward the two railroads that I actually model, while thinning out my former"C-C" purchases. Feels better. But I still have trouble passing up those reefers.
Ya know, Mark, as one whose 'impulsive' buying for a while actually started RESEMBLING the "Cosmopolitan Central", I am in complete agreement with you.
These days, I've learned to focus my 'impulses' toward the two railroads that I actually model, while thinning out my former"C-C" purchases.
Feels better.
But I still have trouble passing up those reefers.
Tom, I will tell you true. Once I atypically "playfully" bid (what was I thinking?) on ebay and ended up with a beautiful, painted and lettered, Union Pacific 2-8-8-0. Being an SP modeler, I have to thank John Signor's book on SP's Salt Lake Division showing that SP leased these same locomotives during the post-WWII years. My guardian angel knows I appreciate him. I'm starting to lose count on how many times he has looked out for me.
Mark
markpierce And most hobbyists might be better off if they weren't so impulsive their layouts don't represent the Cosmopolitan Central. Mark
And most hobbyists might be better off if they weren't so impulsive their layouts don't represent the Cosmopolitan Central.
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
Speaking strictly for myself. I tend to be an impulse buyer. I do have a list of things that I need ALSO with me when I visit my LHS. AND, the owner doesn not charge MSRP, he gives very competitive prices to online prices considering that I have sales tax here in MA, but, I get savings on shipping cost. So I prefer to give my LHS 90% of my business. Each time I come to his store, he shows me the new items that have arrived, and any good sales or even consignment items at great prices.
For others to make comments concerning impulse buying being dead or dying, there are far too many factors to consider when making that judgment call, such as, but not limited to, ones free cash to spend on the hobby, buying personality ( spend free or tightwad or somewhere in between ), layout needs and size, etc. etc.
Since I have a rather rigid idea of what I'm trying to build (scale and prototype) I go into a LHS with a pretty good idea of what I can (and can't) use. These days, most of my hobby purchases are raw materials, tools and paint.
One thing that burned my bearings about a (Deliberately nameless) LHS in a city I once inhabited was the proprietor's insistance that I, "Just HAVE to get," the latest and greatest N-scale whatever decorated for the railroad down the street. It never got through that I model a prototype on the far side of a rather wide ocean, to twice-N (aka 1:80) scale. After the third time, I started taking my business elsewhere.
Chuck (Still modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
markpierce I don't resent people making a profit/living off my purchases. That's what makes the system work. Having everyone work as "volunteers" with the government providing for us wouldn't work for me. If you disagree, join a commune; just don't make me join.
I don't want to get too political here, but I totally agree. I am a list shopper, but if there some figures that would look good or a vehicle that fits my modern theme, then I can't resist and purchase it. Since I don't have a layout, I buy things preparing for the future. Just like the famous line from the TV show The A-Team, "I love it when a plan comes together."
Will
I buy some of my stuff over the internet. I also buy directly from manufacturers too. They are typically one-person or husband/wife businesses. I still purchase from my LHS (Just Trains in Concord, CA) which fortunately is only a five-minute drive away. I always enjoy visiting to look at train stuff, and the owner and her staff add a pleasant personal element. As often as not, I walk away with purchasers I hadn't planned on. (Gee, I could use some of that fencing material, and just remembered my supply of scale 1by2s is low.) I don't resent people making a profit/living off my purchases. That's what makes the system work. Having everyone work as "volunteers" with the government providing for us wouldn't work for me. If you disagree, join a commune; just don't make me join.
grizlump9 step 1 = go to the lhs with a definate idea of what i want. step 2 = look at what i might see that catches my eye. step 3 = learn that they have nothing i want. step 4 = come home and get on the computer. no doubt if i lived near a place like caboose hobbies in denver or des plaines hobbies in chicago, i would not get on the computer very often. now i have learned to call them first to check stock and the go directly to step 4. grizlump
step 1 = go to the lhs with a definate idea of what i want.
step 2 = look at what i might see that catches my eye.
step 3 = learn that they have nothing i want.
step 4 = come home and get on the computer.
no doubt if i lived near a place like caboose hobbies in denver or des plaines hobbies in chicago, i would not get on the computer very often.
now i have learned to call them first to check stock and the go directly to step 4.
grizlump
Just about sums me up to, but lately I have been taking a list to help better insure I don't forget something.
One of my biggest problems is I have a hard time pulling the trigger on spending more money than I should. I am sure I am not the only one.
John
CNJ831 the latest freight cars cost $30-$40 each and passenger cars $60+. Personal income for most hobbyists has fallen woefully behind the escalating prices of new model railroad equipment and has made most model railroaders far more selective regarding their purchases.
the latest freight cars cost $30-$40 each and passenger cars $60+. Personal income for most hobbyists has fallen woefully behind the escalating prices of new model railroad equipment and has made most model railroaders far more selective regarding their purchases.
I believe that the kind of models offered at that price are a good value. They are well-built and detailed and cost the equivalent of $3 to $6 1950s dollars (based on my "hamburger pricing index"). And most hobbyists might be better off if they weren't so impulsive their layouts don't represent the Cosmopolitan Central.
I usually go there to order something, or to get code 80 track or scenery materials, so I'd say a loose lsit buyer. I always go browse in the model railroad aisle though.
Sawyer Berry
Clemson University c/o 2018
Building a protolanced industrial park layout
What CNJ forgets is that there are orders of magnitude greater selection in all scales than there was even 20 years ago, let alone 50 when some of the current scales didn't even exist.
I could pull out the handy dandy inflation calculator, but since the author of the above doesn't have the slightest clue as to the price relationship between things bought with discretionary income and the price of necessities, etc., it would do little good.
He also seems to forget that there are a number of LHS's that do sell at a substantial discount to MSRP. Some of these also are on the Internet, although certainly not all.
Andre
I'm a list buyer. I only go to the LHS when I absolutely need something now, otherwise, I shop online. The LHS rarely stocks what I need and charges MSRP so its back to the computer to go shopping online.
wholemanI was just wondering. Unfortunately, I am an impulse shopper. That is why I mostly buy things online. It keeps me out of trouble. What do you all do?
I was just wondering. Unfortunately, I am an impulse shopper. That is why I mostly buy things online. It keeps me out of trouble.
What do you all do?
Step 1. Drive
Step 2. Drive
Step 3. Drive
Step 4. Drive
Step 5. Drive (Where was it we were going again?)
Step 6. Drive
Step 7. Drive (I don't think we're in Kansas anymore.)
Step 8. Drive
Step 9. Give up. No hobby shops in sight. (Nor could I afford to buy anything there anyway since I now have to fill up the tank with gas...)
Impulse.
But with a List.
With two very well stocked full-line model railroad hobby shops within a fourteen mile radius of where I live, I have to be EXTREMELY careful when I go shopping. At least I tell myself so when I get into the car.
Of course, when I get to either of these very well stocked full-line model railroad hobby shops, all bets are off.
My most famous 'impulse' incident was when I went over to one of the hobby shops for a Cal-Scale brass casting. I think it was a front-hung locomotive bell. Walked past the brass consignment case. Stopped cold. Someone had put three Rio Grande brass steamers in on consignment. A Westside L-105 4-6-6-4, and a Key K-59 2-8-2 and M-75 4-8-2. I left drool on the display case. Walked out with all three steamers (and a Visa that was panting from exhaustion). Had to turn around and go back in because I forgot the bell casting.
It's dangerous for me to go MR shopping, even WITH a List, around here.
mobilman44.......(list) will send me to the LHS. When I get there, the list items get selected first, and then I do a "store browse", and often find something I just have to have. .........a specific need will send me to the LHS, and then I'll find something else to get.
Sounds just like me. At least the way I intend on doing it. And sometimes it has worked that way. Most times, however, I usually forget the list because I combine my trips to town and my trips to the FLHS are usually "hey, while I'm on this side of town....". Then I try to remember what I had on the list by looking over all the stuff in the shop. Loosing my concentration on what it was I needed and not being able to regain that thought completely as I wander around. I meander through the shop looking at all the goodies being distracted as I uncontrolably try to figure a use for the things I see that like. Looking for that certain "thing" that I'll just know when I see I could use and generally seeing what's there for future reference. I'll get some of the list items and usually end up buying somethings impulse and then get home to find I forgot something I needed, thereby starting the next list immediately so I can forget it again. I love it!!!