BTW, I love the misplaced attack on the WGH. If they did nothing, you'd be yelling at them to do something to increase growth in the hobby. Now that they have, they show they are dooooomed. Sigh. It must be difficult walking around with that storm cloud permanently over your head.
Paul A. Cutler III*******************Weather Or No Go New Haven*******************
You mean like this guy?
http://www.lil-abner.com/familyalbum2.html
Andre
CNJ,Of course mail order places were (& are) cheaper. Overhead was less, allowing them to undercut their competition and still make just as much money.
At no point has anyone said that paying full MSRP was the "only" option at any time in this hobby.
But full MSRP at hobby shops 20 years ago? Sorry, but that was common, at least around Boston. Barring sales and blow outs, Ed's Boxcar in Raynham, MA always charged full list. Norwood Hobbies in Norwood, MA was also full MSRP. Eric Fuch's of Boston (and their mall locations in Attleboro, Nashua, Holyoke, etc.) were all full list. South Shore Hobby Center in Weymouth, MA was full MSRP (unless you were a fellow club member, then you got 10% off). Tucker's Hobbies in Warren, MA charged list prices unless there was a sale. Norton Prototype Hobbies of Norton, MA charged MSRP. And more recently, all those Great American Train Stores were full list, and sometimes more. How do I know? I used to shop at all those locations (other than the GAT Store) before I had my driver's permit.
When I was lad some 20 years ago, the only place to get a discount was in the pages of MR, and then you had to pay S&H and you might get any road name they had after 4-6 weeks. Not that there was much to buy.
Your paragraph about the Trainworld is interesting, but it still doesn't answer the question you were asked: Why are you comparing mail order discount prices from yesterday to the modern full MSRP of today's equipment? That makes no sense. You are comparing apples to oranges. Let me put it this way... Right now, there are Athearn 40' AAR boxcars on eBay for 99 cents, which are far less than any price you've quoted from old MR's from the 1980's. Does that mean I can say that Athearn 40' AAR Boxcars are actually cheaper than they were 20 years ago? Of course not, because eBay isn't MSRP, and it's not a sale it's a bid, plus there's S&H involved (which you still haven't addressed about old Trainworld ads).
I don't know why you don't like the 40' AAR Boxcar for a comparison (except that it blows your ideas out of the water). And you still haven't admitted that you were comparing new RTR model prices vs. kit prices earlier.
But if you want to look at locos, let's look at, say, the Blue Box F7A. IIRC, they changed to the plastic side frames, gold motor, and brass flywheels around 1980-ish. It has remained almost completely unchanged since then. Again using hoseeker.net and the Wayback Machine, here's some prices:
F7A - w/ "Super" weight and flywheels at MSRP -1981: $19.50 1988: $24.00 1991: $26.501998: $33.502001: $33.50
2009 dollars using the BLS inflation calculator -1981: $46.27 1988: $43.76 1991: $41.97 1998: $44.33 2001: $40.80
Today From Horizon's website:2009: $44.98 MSRP
So, adjusted for inflation, the same Athearn F7A that is available today has been between $40 and $47 for the past 28 years.
Of course, you bringing up today's $250-$400 steam prices is laughable since Athearn didn't make steam engines 20 years ago. And the $225-$300 A-B sets are for high-quality Highliner RTR models, not old Athearn BB F-units. IOW, what does that have to do with the price of rice in China? The only way the above makes sense is if your game is to compare discount prices of common unrefined equipment from the 1980's and compare them to full MSRP list prices of high end RR-specific models with sound and DCC installed soit will get you the numbers you want. If you keep up this line of nonsense, then I'll just answer with "Anyone can get models for 99 cents on eBay!" This is why I stick to MSRP. It's a constant. Your ads from MR are not.
Impulse. I model the pennsy but they almost sold me a New Haven I-5 today, the thing is just so darn beautiful.
Impulse? As in going to LHS for abottle of Poly Scale rust and leaving with 2 Walthers 89 footer for $14 each plus numerous detail parts? No. Never.
blownout cylinder MMMMM-- dang. If everyone was basically buying MSRP all that time--during the period 1950-1990--until our glorious time when there are sales all over the place then how does one account for all the sales ads in the MR mags from the same era(s)? My father bought all kinds of engines and pieces of rolling stock during the same era( 1965-85) always on sale with the sales discounts between 20-40% at the LHS he went to. Now, if I had been a somewhat more smarter cookie I would have kept a lot more of those dang receipts from back then because there were quite a few that were higher-----but I threw them out----GRRR BTW, those 'mail order' places were also somebody's LHS back then----unlike the era we now are in
MMMMM-- dang. If everyone was basically buying MSRP all that time--during the period 1950-1990--until our glorious time when there are sales all over the place then how does one account for all the sales ads in the MR mags from the same era(s)? My father bought all kinds of engines and pieces of rolling stock during the same era( 1965-85) always on sale with the sales discounts between 20-40% at the LHS he went to. Now, if I had been a somewhat more smarter cookie I would have kept a lot more of those dang receipts from back then because there were quite a few that were higher-----but I threw them out----GRRR
BTW, those 'mail order' places were also somebody's LHS back then----unlike the era we now are in
Your dad was lucky to have such a place. Here in the Baltimore area in those days we had one discount shop (still in business and a big mailorder outfit now) located downtown. He sold at 20% off and seldom any lower. All the suburban shops, about 6 total, where all full list except for some 10% club discounts and specials from time to time.
And my knowledge of the greater mid atlantic region was that big well stocked hobby shops like Coor's in DC, Gilbert's in Gettysburg and Mitchell's in Wilmington where all full list every time I visted them. In fact, the one of the three that is still around, is still full list. And the several shops today in Strasburg PA, (not far from me) only discount slightly (10%).
Now all of those suburban shops from then are gone, replaced by only a few that do discount, and all of which are on the net doing mail order.
Sheldon
I have a list,but the items on it are never on sale. I will wait on them,because I won't pay full price.Sometimes I will find a bargain and buy that item instead.I recently went in to my LHS to buy a DVD and saw some HO locos on their sale table.I walked out with a BLI Blue Line Milwaukee Road SD40-2 with sound for $40.00!!!
I go to the LHS when I haven't been there for a while and limit my impulse spending to about $30, whether it be parts, rolling stock, or a general good deal on an item.
As far as prices, which seems to have taken over this thread a bit, I think the manufacturers are taking a key from other industries, like automobiles. Everybody understands the concept of "options" on cars, leather seats, power windoes, navigation, etc. The more "add-ons" the higher the price. Prices for cars are higher now, but you also get AC, power steering, locks and windows, and auto trans standard.
Comparing prices now to prices back in the day is a bit tough since you get more with your purchase than you did back then. Prices may have actually GONE DOWN over time, when comparing apples to apples. A fully loaded Athearn BB, with a better motor, wire grabs, thin handrails, directional lighting, might actually have cost you relatively more money "back in the day" than it does now.
I think hobby manufacturers are trying to force the consumer into buying loaded products, rolling stock, locos, buildings, etc.
The problem is that the choice for buying the stripped down item is rapidly disappearing, leaving me to only buy features that I may not really want, just to get a decent paint job or some detail. Therefore, I feel like the product I really want to buy is more expensive now than in the past because I'm being forced to buy features I don't want. Including the labor expended to assemble the product.
My two cents.
Doug
- Douglas
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
I usually drop in for a bottle of glue or a turnout... but you feel silly writing a check for just $10, so I'll scoop up parts and scratch building supplies until I hit my limit (or more precisely, until my limit hits me!)
Lee
Route of the Alpha Jets www.wmrywesternlines.net
BRAKIE Sheldon said:All of these comments simply ignore my explaination of the wholesale discount structure and change in distribution and marketing of model trains over the last 50-60 years. ---------------------------- Sheldon,I will be among the first to agree today's discounts is a blessing when it comes to paying full MSRP or that long standing 10% discount that many shops still offer...There is no doubt on line brick and mortar shops has played a major roll in larger discounts then the mail order shops of old since there is more on line competition for our hobby dollar.. What I find odd is one on line shop(send pm if interested) charges full MSRP for Athearn BB kits and offers a discount for the RTR cars..I don't understand the marketing behind that move. As I said earlier one can not compare today's prices against those of 10-40 years ago since we are talking about 2 or more different eras.. A savvy hobby shop owner will join the modern times and use the Internet as a marketing tool. Those that would rather blame and cuss the Internet for their lost sales instead of using contemporary marketing strategies will watch his/her shop die a slow death.
Sheldon said:All of these comments simply ignore my explaination of the wholesale discount structure and change in distribution and marketing of model trains over the last 50-60 years.
----------------------------
Sheldon,I will be among the first to agree today's discounts is a blessing when it comes to paying full MSRP or that long standing 10% discount that many shops still offer...There is no doubt on line brick and mortar shops has played a major roll in larger discounts then the mail order shops of old since there is more on line competition for our hobby dollar..
What I find odd is one on line shop(send pm if interested) charges full MSRP for Athearn BB kits and offers a discount for the RTR cars..I don't understand the marketing behind that move.
As I said earlier one can not compare today's prices against those of 10-40 years ago since we are talking about 2 or more different eras..
A savvy hobby shop owner will join the modern times and use the Internet as a marketing tool.
Those that would rather blame and cuss the Internet for their lost sales instead of using contemporary marketing strategies will watch his/her shop die a slow death.
Larry, I agree with one small exception, being a student of economics, and a business owner most of my life, to me, value is value. Times will change, things do shift, but the value of work at a given skill level does tend to remain similar in value over the LONG HAUL. This has been documented endlessly in the study of economics.
Even having worked in the hobby business, I have no sympathy for retailers who do not change with the times.
As for the retailer you discribe, it reminds me of an old practice from back in the day. In the early days of some discounting, some shops discounted only items over a certain price, or only certain types of items, like locomotives, using lower prices on more expensive items as a draw but keeping their full markup on smaller, slower moving "support" items.
But again, to complain about todays prices, is IMHO, unfounded.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
CNJ831This, of course, says nothing about the latest $225-$300+ diesel AB sets and $250-$450+ for individual steam locomotives. Face it, even the tiniest recently issued switchers are commanding upwards of $100 now. Then, too, how about addressing the situation with DPM, Heljan, or California Models structure kits? All have increased 3x to 5x over their 1987 prices, without changing one iota.
I have bought lots of locos in the last 10 years and as recently as a few weeks ago. Intermountain, Proto, Bachmann - The higher end range you quote is bells and whistles - literaly - DCC w/sound. I don't pay those kind of prices - again I refer to my explaination of the distribution network and how it has changed. Only big boys can play and a 20% discount is "built in" to MSRP these days, but it was not always that way.
Did you ever think maybe the cost of production went up for DPM?
Product size has little to do with the cost of production. The guy who puts a front wheel on a Focus makes the same wage as the guy who puts a front wheel on a Town car. Product prices are based on features, quality, and complexity of assembly, not size.
CNJ831 I can think of, always offered substantial discounts over catalog figures. Pull that 1987 copy of MR and compare your MSRP Athearn catalog figures then with what items were actually selling for through the retail ads. The difference was typically 1/3 off from just about everybody. The company I cited as an example for prices in my post, Standard Hobby Supply, was/is no fly-by-night outfit, having been successfully in business for decades and specifically why I cited them. The same is true of Train World and a number of other MR-listed brick & mortar/mailorder companies. These are big, nationally known outfits that tens of thousands of hobbyists have regularly dealt with. To this day, they are recommended countless times for deals on this very forum. There are similar examples in many major metropolitan area. All offer substantial discounts on everything. Full MSRP prices are mythical figures, except perhaps among newbies who haven't yet learned the system but they have become increasingly unrealistic and outrageously excessive in recent years.
I can think of, always offered substantial discounts over catalog figures. Pull that 1987 copy of MR and compare your MSRP Athearn catalog figures then with what items were actually selling for through the retail ads. The difference was typically 1/3 off from just about everybody.
The company I cited as an example for prices in my post, Standard Hobby Supply, was/is no fly-by-night outfit, having been successfully in business for decades and specifically why I cited them. The same is true of Train World and a number of other MR-listed brick & mortar/mailorder companies. These are big, nationally known outfits that tens of thousands of hobbyists have regularly dealt with. To this day, they are recommended countless times for deals on this very forum. There are similar examples in many major metropolitan area. All offer substantial discounts on everything. Full MSRP prices are mythical figures, except perhaps among newbies who haven't yet learned the system but they have become increasingly unrealistic and outrageously excessive in recent years.
All of these comments simply ignore my explaination of the wholesale discount structure and change in distribution and marketing of model trains over the last 50-60 years.
The last five or ten years may be all that is relevant to you, I don't konw how old you are. But I have been buying model trains since 1967. And, until the middle 80's discounting was rare and 20% off was about the max at ANY brick and mortar store. And that was only at a few big retailers buying direct. Even mail order was seldom more than 30-35% max.
Yes, Trainworld and Standard Hobby are top notch legit operations, I deal with both quite a bit. And discounting is the order of the day - TODAY.
Fact still remains, ajusted for inflation, compared to hours worked at similar professions, etc,etc, by any reasonable mathmatical way you look at it, prices today are not unreasonable and are not higher than years past, be it MSRP or street price.
But if you just want to vent your own baseless emotional reactions, I have one for you - I'll never understand the fool who pays $80,000 for a BMW or a Benz. Nothing on rubber tires is worth that kind of money (to me). Or the guy who spends $2000 on a brass loco, but it is his money.
Small shops are gone because of the need for discounting and larger inventory selection. High turnover marketing has lead to wide price disparities on brands like BLI/PCM. Again, a bad business model in my view that will only hurt the hobby.
But the current "average" prices are not hurting the hobby.
Personally, I don't see much of a change in the last five years. But, I don't buy DCC or sound, or big modern diesels, or brass, or expensive RTR rolling stock so maybe I am out of the loop. Or, I'm still just modeling the way I always have and having fun, actually building things.
I said earlier in this thread, if you are building a basement empire, this has NEVER been an inexpensive hobby. As Larry agreed in his recent post, if you are building a modest layout, costs are within reason.
But ad in wireless DCC, sound, expensive well detailed RTR rolling stock, built up buildings, etc, etc. and it can get expensive in a hurry.
Paul, do you honestly believe that regularly paying MSRP for your hobby supplies all these years is the standard among hobbyists? In a lifetime of association with the HO hobby I can't ever remember a time when my only choice was to pay full MSRP. That didn't appear until the rise of panic buying set in among some hobbyists the past few years. Hobbyshops, and especially trainshows, plus just about any other purchasing venues I can think of, always offered substantial discounts over catalog figures. Pull that 1987 copy of MR and compare your MSRP Athearn catalog figures then with what items were actually selling for through the retail ads. The difference was typically 1/3 off from just about everybody.
Instead of citing only Athearn's old 40' box cars, how about comparing some of the far more saleable items among those I cited as examples. If you wish to do Athearn, how about the diesel locomotives (as bad as they might be) that I listed. Today their selling prices are 50% over the 1987 figures after inflation adjustment and they are long out of date relative to modern standards. This, of course, says nothing about the latest $225-$300+ diesel AB sets and $250-$450+ for individual steam locomotives. Face it, even the tiniest recently issued switchers are commanding upwards of $100 now. Then, too, how about addressing the situation with DPM, Heljan, or California Models structure kits? All have increased 3x to 5x over their 1987 prices, without changing one iota.
The fact is, none of the current prices honestly compares directly with the situation 20 years ago, or any earlier era for that matter, no matter what stage in life you were at, nor how the numbers are twisted. Save maybe for Rivarossi, such high relative pricing as today's has not existed in the hobby since the first couple of years after WWII...following which, incidentally, quality dramatically increased while general pricing of many of the expensive items declined by up to 50% due to the advance of technology.
That situation was responsible for the HO hobby's original explosion in popularity. Just what do you think the high prices in all aspects of model railroading today are leading to? Certainly not an expansion of the hobby. The manufacturers' apparent reasons for organizing and funding the WGH program pretty much answers that question (have you ever read its stated intent and objectives?).
CNJ831
Just how many people mail ordered back then vs. their local, non-discount hobby shop of yesterday? If you can tell me that no one paid MSRP during the 1980's, then I'll buy your argument. But you can't. So MSRP will have to do.Paul
------------------------------
Indeed..I did 90% of my shopping at hobby shops(some shops offered 10% discount) and the other 10% was done at train shows,mail order shops and I also bought used equipment.
---------------------
Paul said:Another thing I thought of was shipping and handling costs. How much does that add to the mail order cost to get one single Athearn 40' AAR boxcar?------------------
It would actually cost more so one was incline to order more to help off set the shipping costs.
--------------------
Paul:You also compared yesterday's discount mail order prices to today's full MSRP, which is another misleading claim. In 1988, 40' AAR boxcar kits were $3.50 MSRP. Today, they are $7.75. That's 2.2 times the cost, not "over 3x". Where is the mail order discount price for today's Athearn car kits? Why don't you mention that?
-------------------
Most interesting question..
A 40 foot boxcar will cost $6.29
http://www.firsthobby.com/store1/Product.asp?ProductID=ATH5001&SN=2009080709462379
Or it can cost you $5.42
http://www.1stplacehobbies.com/cgi-bin/prod.asp?pn=140-5001
All depending on where you shop..
BTW..That $5.42 40' boxcars is 8 cents cheaper then what I paid for the same car about 7(?) years ago-the car sold for $5.50
Guys,One can still build a ISL or 4x8 footer for less then $1000.00 by sticking with the basic and shopping wisely.
IRONROOSTER ATLANTIC CENTRAL... The universal misery of capitalism is the unequal distribution of the blessings, The universal blessing of socialism is the equal distribution of the misery. Winston Churchhill Lately the misery out weighs the blessings. ......... So our recent experience is the hobby costs more. While it's fun to compare prices to 1947 or 1956 that has no meaning for us. It's how they compare to last year and 5 years ago and how our income compares to last year and 5 years ago. Getting back to the original topic, I suspect that many (but not all) of us are reining in our purchases - either buying from shorter lists or capping total expenditures if impulse buying. Enjoy Paul
ATLANTIC CENTRAL... The universal misery of capitalism is the unequal distribution of the blessings, The universal blessing of socialism is the equal distribution of the misery. Winston Churchhill
The universal misery of capitalism is the unequal distribution of the blessings,
The universal blessing of socialism is the equal distribution of the misery.
Winston Churchhill
Lately the misery out weighs the blessings.
......... So our recent experience is the hobby costs more. While it's fun to compare prices to 1947 or 1956 that has no meaning for us. It's how they compare to last year and 5 years ago and how our income compares to last year and 5 years ago.
Getting back to the original topic, I suspect that many (but not all) of us are reining in our purchases - either buying from shorter lists or capping total expenditures if impulse buying.
Enjoy
Paul
Remember when quoting Churchill it is important to recognise the context in which his pronouncments were made.
This often quoted piece of glib Churchillian blather was current at the time of the post WWII elections when the British Conservitives were facing an election against Clement Atlee's Labour party.
British voters at the time were looking for some kind of release from the harsh privations of war and were hoping to have some of that pain eased by the policies of a left wing leaning government destined to replace the possibility of continued austerity offered at the time by the governing British Conservitive (Tory) party. Whether in the long term the Brits got what they wanted is of course another thing.
Not wanting to ever get into another one of those pointless debates as to whether consumer goods were in reality cheaper in 1947 than they are today, I can only say this in response: models may have been more expensive in relitive terms then but, are they more affordable now?
Bruce (from the far left of Carl Marx - no wait, make that Groucho Marx)
And, if you want to see how cheaply it can be done, you can re-read about everyones bargins.
http://cs.trains.com/trccs/forums/thread/1711553.aspx
CNJ,BTW, those 6-packs you were talking about are for RTR's. Do you think that's fair to compare kit prices from 20 years ago to RTR prices of today, especially when kits are still available at Horizon's website? Can we please try to keep like-to-like for comparison's sake? (and you think I'm being misleading?)You also compared yesterday's discount mail order prices to today's full MSRP, which is another misleading claim. In 1988, 40' AAR boxcar kits were $3.50 MSRP. Today, they are $7.75. That's 2.2 times the cost, not "over 3x". Where is the mail order discount price for today's Athearn car kits? Why don't you mention that?
If you want to throw inflation into it, those 1988 kits would cost $6.38 in 2009 dollars. For the $1.37 difference, you get better couplers (not much, but still better than X2F's), and much better paint jobs. Is it worth it? Maybe, maybe not. But it's not "over 3x" the cost like you claim.
Another thing I thought of was shipping and handling costs. How much does that add to the mail order cost to get one single Athearn 40' AAR boxcar?I have no problem with any retail shop stuffing their shelves with only higher priced items, as long as it pays that bills. That's capitalism. This isn't a charity. If folks don't like it, they can open a retail shop and sell nothing but the least expensive items in the hobby. If they make it, bully for them...but I'm not gonna hold my breath.
jwhitten,The reasons why shops close are vast. Maybe the owner retired. Maybe he was a jerk and his customers fled. Maybe his prices were too high. Maybe the rent went from "ouch" to "boing". Maybe folks are ordering online. Maybe the price of gas keeps people from driving. Maybe the owner lost his real job and couldn't support the hobby shop that he ran at a loss for years. IOW, there is no one reason why hobby shops close.
jwhittenIf everything is the same-same, why is it hobby shops (and lots of other shops) are going out of business left and right? Why are we always going on about the demise of the local hobby shop?
In another recent thread about the price of things in this hobby I posted the following:
grizlump is right,
The pricing is a joke and manufacturers/importers are only hurting them selves.
As he said (I will use the $400 loco in my example)
In the old days - here in the USA:
Price from MFR to Distributor - $160.00
Distributor to Retailer - $240.00 (price not doubled aT this level or any level)
MSRP to retail customer - $400.00 (lowest discount likely to be 15% or sale price of $340.00)
Gross profit at MSRP - $160.00, gross profit at 15% off - $100.00 (not really enough to stay in business, but if this is only offered on big ticket items and general volume is good, it may be OK.
Than big dealers started to cut out Distributor and lower prices - new model:
Price from MFR direct to Retailer (same as before, MFR does not care who as long as he sells them in case lots) - $160.00
Retailer to customer, discounted 20% - $320.00
Gross profit at 20% discount - $160.00 - WOW that was magic, sell it at 20% off and make the same as the smaller guy who wanted full MSRP.
THIS WAS ALL GOING ON BEFORE ANY SIGNIFICANT CHINA PRODUCTION. And, "basement" dealers with low/no overhead where willing to give even bigger discounts, 30%, 40% off MSRP.
It should be noted that the few lines made in China at that time gave no clue as to their production cost other than to have lower retail prices (it was of course on cheap train set stuff). Their wholesale/MSRP discount structure was the same as American production companies.
Than along comes Bachmann Spectrum and Life Like Proto2000 - Obviously they set retails based on American production to see what the market would bear and give the indication to consumers that the product was of high quality, not the same as their "train set" products.
At first discounts where the same, then, possibly to share the wealth with dealers and boost volume to support even lower production costs, and/or to turn the money over faster, they lowered their prices to the wholesale/dealer network.
This allowed the dealers already buying direct from them, and already discounting 20%, to discount these products even lower, keeping their prices on these products still lower than other retailers.
Greed at many wholesale companies kept them selling these products wholesale to Mom & Pop shops at the old 40% off MSRP, driving may of them right out of business and draging the wholesalers down with them. The big boys didn't need the wholesalers, they buy direct.
Walthers, who started with manufacturing, shifted to both manufacturing and distributing, was at that time big on the distributor side. I think not so much any more, see above.
Walthers (and others) move into China production, re-evaluate distribution model and focus on importing to replace both in house manufacturing and distributing, buys Proto 2000 and limits discounting to new 50-55%? model.
Athearn cuts out middle men with Horizion ownership, solving price dispairity and basement dealer problems, goes to 50-55% discount to all retail outlets big and small and is going strong.
Bachmann continues selling direct to anyone with enough money at 60-70%? level (Proto must have been near this level as well before the Walthers buy out), knowing this creates street price at 35-50% off MSRP. BUT pricing is consistant - NO DUMPING, only problem low overhead dealers with low "everyday" prices on Ebay and at shows.
Then along comes BLI/PCM who are obviously under capitalized. At first they go for the big profit, selling direct to dealers at 40-45% off MSRP. volume and sales don't cover production cost, too much product sitting, no working capital to let it sit and sell when next wave of modelers want it, so prices are slashed to move it out and pay for the next container load.
So, MSRP is now offically a joke, others may have wounded it, but BLI/PCM backed over him with the bus repeatedly.
So it really is just like my Daddy said, "the price of anything is only determined by how bad you want it, and how bad the other guy wants to be rid of it".
In the old days inventory was seen as money in the bank, products changed slowly, old products remained in production (maybe slow, batch production) for decades. An Athearn F7 would sell no matter what, why would you give it away unless you where "going out of business"?
Not so today, and we see the results. The hope is that some how this will right itself so someone is still in business to make the stuff we want. That's the part most modelers don't get, if there is no profit, there will be no product.
This clearly explains why small retailers are out and big ones/mail order/internet is in. And it explains part of why stuff is actually cheaper today. By the time most products reach most modelers, there is 20% LESS profit made by ANYONE in the chain of supply than in 1960 or 1970. And somehow many modelers still think prices are artificiality high. I think not.
Truth is, if you are running a small retail shop, you NEED a 35-40% gRoss profit and a good volume to make money, or at least stay in business. Even with the new distribution model with 50-55% off MSRP, the pressure from discount outlets means small shops have to discount, putting them right back at barely making 35%. It's a tough business to make a living in.
Sorry, CNJ, but there is nothing misleading in my factual posting (how is simply posting facts misleading?). Those are actual MSRP prices for the same product for the past 50+ years, especially after the 1957 introducton of the plastic 40' AAR boxcar. If you don't like it, tell it to Athearn...they printed and priced those catalogs, not me.I don't use sale prices because they vary so wildly. Anyone can claim any price they wanted to because some business was closing that was blowing out stock, or that they were a basement bomber that had no overhead, etc. MSRP is the level playing field on which everything is based. It's a constant. Ads in MR's are not. Just how many people mail ordered back then vs. their local, non-discount hobby shop of yesterday? If you can tell me that no one paid MSRP during the 1980's, then I'll buy your argument. But you can't. So MSRP will have to do.Paul A. Cutler III*******************Weather Or No Go New Haven*******************
CNJ831but you can find them in very few brick and mortar hobby shops today. Think about the cost of the hobby once this entry-level priced stuff is gone for good. CNJ831
but you can find them in very few brick and mortar hobby shops today. Think about the cost of the hobby once this entry-level priced stuff is gone for good.
Actually your post made me think of another point-- let's assume the folks who say inflation accounts for the difference, just for the sake of the discussion--
So with everything being "adjusted for inflation" and whatnot, we're supposedly bringing home a comparable income, with comparable "disposable" money, for items that cost comparably the same amount, etc. -- let's just accept that at face value--
If everything is the same-same, why is it hobby shops (and lots of other shops) are going out of business left and right? Why are we always going on about the demise of the local hobby shop?
Sure some of it has gotta be competition with the Internet, so that would account for some of it. But its hard to believe, if people supposedly have about the same amount of disposable income, that all of them are shopping online and none of that money is "burning a hole in their pockets" whilst browsing at the local hobby shop. Or at the train shows. Or even online on ebay for that matter. The prices for this stuff keep going up and up and up. And even though there are deals to be had for sure-- and I know that first hand-- as far as retail prices go, they seem to be travelling north far faster than my willingness to part with hard-earned money.
Although I had indicated that I would not be posting to this thread again, the item pricing that Paul cited in his long intercomparison of pricing is so misleading I feel compelled to indicate some real numbers so that readers can gain a more honest appreciation of the situation.
Regarding that Athearn 40' box car and getting very specific, Standard Hobby Supply's 1987 MR ad listed them at $1.95 along with several other dealers in the pages of MR. Train World had them for $2.25 . Unfortunately, SHS does not appear to sell individual 40' cars today but they do list them at $67.59 for a six-pack, implying that individually they would be more than $11.26 each today. Even accepting Paul's $7.25 at face value the increase is over 3x what it was in 1987.
A better comparison are Athearn's locomotives. The same retailer gives the price of the SD40-2 as $22.99 in '87. They currently sell it for $69.99 . The GP38-2 went for 18.99 back then and in 2009 is $49.99. A GP50 was $18.99 and today is $55.99 . And if you were willing to accept substitute road names if they were out of the one you wanted, you could get a further $3.00 knocked off these prices back in '87. At the same time, Train World had each loco mentioned for $2.00 less than that listed above. Keep in mind that the inflation correction 1987 to 2009 should only be 1.9x.
All the above figures indicate at least a three-fold increase and need I mention the fact that average person's wages have not kept pace with inflation for some years now (how many news surveys have we read where folks today feel that they are less well off than their parents were?). The rise in the prices of steam locomotives has often been far more extreme (except maybe for Bowser).
Far more disturbing is that if you check around, you find that retailers are progressively phasing out the older, lower-priced models, carrying instead only the high-end examples that in some cases can be 6 to 8 times more expensive than similar 1987 cars and loco. Athearn keeps claiming it's going to keep producing inexpensive kits "as long as there is demand" but you can find them in very few brick and mortar hobby shops today. Think about the cost of the hobby once this entry-level priced stuff is gone for good.
IRONROOSTERLately the misery out weighs the blessings.
Could be Churchill was right as to the cause of the current misery.
wjstix ATLANTIC CENTRAL Today taxation, as a percentage of income, is twice what it was in 1960, that might be where your money went. IIRC in 1960 the top federal tax rate was 90%. Currently it's 35%, and would only affect people making over $350,000 per year. We shouldn't be in a "Rush" to believe everything we hear on talk radio...
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Today taxation, as a percentage of income, is twice what it was in 1960, that might be where your money went.
Today taxation, as a percentage of income, is twice what it was in 1960, that might be where your money went.
IIRC in 1960 the top federal tax rate was 90%. Currently it's 35%, and would only affect people making over $350,000 per year. We shouldn't be in a "Rush" to believe everything we hear on talk radio...
We are taxed in more ways than just the income tax, and comparing all government spending to GDP, even allowing for growing deficits, then and now, directly or indirectly, we pay twice as much.
You may think we should be "paying" for all these things, personally I do not. But again, this is not the proper forum for that part of this discussion.
Personally I don't listen to nuts on either side.
Sheldon said:As I pointed out before, in the 80's, when you felt the hobby was so "afordable", I was rasing children, buying furniture, starting a business (not collecting some high salery or hourly wage), I could aford very little in the way of model trains.
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Well,in the 80s I had 2 teenage kids..Thank goodness I was gainfully employed as a brakeman that is until '85...
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my work truck is 10 years old and running fine.
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My Le Sabre is 14 years old and is still in good condition even tho' its in the garage getting a new(and more then likely unneeded) sensor.
I suppose I been fortunate as I have had several high paying blue collar jobs including 9 1/2 years as a brakeman..Now I am medically retired and still doing fairly well.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL...The universal misery of capitalism is the unequal distribution of the blessings, The universal blessing of socialism is the equal distribution of the misery. Winston Churchhill
But I think the real problem is that overall wages have been largely stagnated over the last few years while prices have gone up. So that the hobby (and everything else) has cost a larger percent of income. Of course individual situations vary - if you or your spouse lost a job then income is way down. Likewise if you got a big promotion income is way up. But for many there just hasn't been much change in income. But prices have been creeping up. An aside notice how gas prices are back up to $2.58 a gallon (Northern Va.) but no huge outcry, we're getting used to them. So our recent experience is the hobby costs more. While it's fun to compare prices to 1947 or 1956 that has no meaning for us. It's how they compare to last year and 5 years ago and how our income compares to last year and 5 years ago.
BRAKIE Paul,Don't forget there was thousands of high paying Union jobs back then as well as thousands of office jobs. Very few worked for minimum wage back then.
Paul,Don't forget there was thousands of high paying Union jobs back then as well as thousands of office jobs.
Very few worked for minimum wage back then.
Larry,
First of all, not everybody had those "high paying union jobs", I know I didn't. Neither did my father. My mother stayed home and rasied three children.
The overall economic conditions between 1945 and now is a topic that will get this thread locked or deleted if we pursue it. And I will repeate my view that it is not relevent because market forces have kept hobby prices low, in fact made them lower. Other "problems" are just that, outside factors.
As I pointed out before, in the 80's, when you felt the hobby was so "afordable", I was rasing children, buying furniture, starting a business (not collecting some high salery or hourly wage), I could aford very little in the way of model trains.
Before that in the 70's, I was single, lived with my parents, worked, and had lots of money for trains.
Now I am semi-retired, manage my real estate holdings, work about 25 hours a week at a vocation I love, my house, cars and investment properties are paid for, my kids are grown and gone and I have plenty of money to spend on trains.
And they seem reasonable enough to me in price. And like Paul and I both suggested, many people today "must" have a bunch of stuff they did just fine without before.
I don't have an Ipod, my cell phone does not take pictures, or have a keyboard, or web service. I drive a Ford (a brand new one), not a BMW, my work truck is 10 years old and running fine. My kitchen counters are not granite, and the appliances are not stainless steel (but they are brand new),
Nobody owes anybody a "high paying union job" in this life. Maybe if some things had been done differently by unions, industry and government 40 years ago, the production of everything would not be in China, Mexico or where ever. I will leave the "politics of economics and taxes" at two more thoughts, read Adam Smith's - Wealth of Nations, written 1776,
and,
Winston Churchill
But what do I know, I'm just a hick with a pickup, a gun, and a few model trains.
Paul,
Thank you for that exhaustive research, which deminstates way beyond my claims, the point I was making.
See, we do agree on a few things.