Sir MadogEven Marklin, with their Trix brand, get a slice of that cake.
I wish Marklin were still producing Trix locomotives. Their Mikes are absolutely beautiful - both detail-wise and operationally. I bought both their NYC Mikes off eBay for over 1/2 off MSRP.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
R. T. POTEETS-9 does not say that Full Throttle Voltage cannot exceed 12VDC but rather that it cannot be less than 12VDC. Obviously MTH has installed a 24VDC motor in their J and a Full Throttle Voltage of 24VDC is well over that 12VDC threshold; that's fine -- get yourself a variac and crank it up to 24VDC. As long as you are operating all-MTH equipment then you're going to be A-OK.
I understand, but before 1999, S-9 said "All propulsion motors (permanent-magnet field or wound field) shall be designed for satisfactory operation at 11 volts direct current."
That S-9 was issued in February 1961. I can fax any interested party a photo copy of the orginal paper version I recieved when I joined the NMRA in 1969.
I wounder who lobbied for a change?
30 SMPH is not "satisfactory" for a N&W Class J.
I'm sure that in addition to remedial reading, there will be a politcal correctness course as well.
Sheldon
tstage Sir MadogEven Marklin, with their Trix brand, get a slice of that cake. I wish Marklin were still producing Trix locomotives. Their Mikes are absolutely beautiful - both detail-wise and operationally. I bought both their NYC Mikes off eBay for over 1/2 off MSRP. Tom
That's why they went out of business, nobody bought them at regular price. And, while the Mike is a nice model, selling PA1's with Lionel like swivel pilots will not get you far in the North American HO market.
If you want to sell trains in this market, they need to be built to certain standards. Having been in this hobby a long time and worked in it as well, I have seen this over and over.
rrinkerSheldon - well, he mentioned BLI/PCM - those have sound. Sound in DC is going to have those issues. Although perhaps a verion of the sound decoder that didn't do DCC would actually work well on your Aristo PWM system - the DCC portion probably gets confused by the PWM, but if it didn;t do that, you could probably get enough RMS voltage to operate the sound system with barely a crack of the throttle, thus not loosing all the control range. But I really don;t see anyone making that effort, there would be little market for such devices. Now, if you don't want sound/dcc, back when they used QSI and Loksound decoders, BLI/PCM offered 'stealth' versions - same loco, minus the dcc/sound decoder. Nothing to strip out, otherwise identical. MTH doing that? Yeah, right.
Two simple points, some of my BLI/PCM pieces are DC "Stealth" versions, the rest I made into stealth versions. I have a Blueline Heavy Mikado and that ran poorly on DC as well until the "sound board" went away. Actually, that loco and an orginal BLI Heavy Mike both recieved Bachmann long haul tenders, fixed them right up.
I will full well admit, onboard sound in DC is a non starter, it simply does not work well, unless all you are doing is running a display loop. Starting, stopping, reversing, switching cars with those things is a disaster.
RedGrey62Well, I'm going to wade in here, more to defend MR than anything. I pulled out some issues and did a quick scan, accross a spectrum of manufacturers and products. It seems the MR actually is pretty truthful in mentioning differences in performance on DC vs DCC, paint, and details. While I haven't read this review in person, it appears they are just stating facts as they generally do for other products they . review. No where did anyone mention if MR said "this product stinks" or "don't buy it" I think people are thinking this is a "gotcha" moment when it isn't. The top speed is too slow, but many other loco's top speed are too high (usually meaning their low end speed is too high too). I don't own any MTH products, if Mr Mike makes some 60's era stuff for middle America, I might be inclined. As far as sound goes, the basic ones I use in DCC are engine sounds, horn and bell, if DCS decoder operating on a DCC system can do that, I'm happy. Otherwise I will determine what I need to do to replace decoder or motor to make it do what I need it to do. Just like repowering old BB Athearns. Ricky
Well, I'm going to wade in here, more to defend MR than anything. I pulled out some issues and did a quick scan, accross a spectrum of manufacturers and products. It seems the MR actually is pretty truthful in mentioning differences in performance on DC vs DCC, paint, and details. While I haven't read this review in person, it appears they are just stating facts as they generally do for other products they . review. No where did anyone mention if MR said "this product stinks" or "don't buy it" I think people are thinking this is a "gotcha" moment when it isn't. The top speed is too slow, but many other loco's top speed are too high (usually meaning their low end speed is too high too).
I don't own any MTH products, if Mr Mike makes some 60's era stuff for middle America, I might be inclined. As far as sound goes, the basic ones I use in DCC are engine sounds, horn and bell, if DCS decoder operating on a DCC system can do that, I'm happy. Otherwise I will determine what I need to do to replace decoder or motor to make it do what I need it to do. Just like repowering old BB Athearns.
Ricky
I agree. I think MR does a good job in their reviews of describing the product. As appropriate, they note the fidelity to the prototype and describe it's operation. For kits, they also describe problems encountered in assembly. The reader decides whether the product is worth it to them.
What they don't do is make value or comparison judgments or give you buy recommendations like Consumer Reports, but then that's not the type of review that they are doing.
Enjoy
Paul
IRONROOSTER ...What they don't do is make value or comparison judgments or give you buy recommendations like Consumer Reports, but then that's not the type of review that they are doing...
...What they don't do is make value or comparison judgments or give you buy recommendations like Consumer Reports, but then that's not the type of review that they are doing...
Well, actually they do, Paul. The charts they provide in each full review provides a direct comparison between the item tested and the 'average' model for such performance parameters as tractive effort and speed at various voltage settings.
-Crandell
I guess what we are looking for is a review that states "I would or would not buy this item for these reasons". I doubt if that would happen because many peoples needs are different and desires or expectations vary so much between Hobbiests. What matters to you may or may not matter to another. What they (MR) do, they do well. Report the facts as the model presents itself to them. Saying it doesn't reach scale speed or exceeds speed is all that is required. It allows you the potential buyer to draw the conclusion as to whether it is right for you. MR is not making your decisions for you, just presenting facts.
The only exception I take to their policy is the, and I paraphrase, "we won't print it if it's junk" policy. My reasoning goes along with what Selector said already, plus, how do I know what is junk and just hasn't been reviewed. Waste of printed space? or "Don't want to make a client mad" That's something I wouldn't think you'd want your readers to draw conclusions about. Shoot, they already are.
Just my opinion, yours of course may vary.
Todd
Central Illinoyz
In order to keep my position as Master and Supreme Ruler of the House, I don't argue with my wife.
I'm a small town boy. A product of two people from even smaller towns. I don’t talk on topic….. I just talk.
selectorIRONROOSTER ...What they don't do is make value or comparison judgments or give you buy recommendations like Consumer Reports, but then that's not the type of review that they are doing... Well, actually they do, Paul. The charts they provide in each full review provides a direct comparison between the item tested and the 'average' model for such performance parameters as tractive effort and speed at various voltage settings. -Crandell
The one HUGE difference between MR and CR (Consumer Report) is that the former is heavily involved with selling advertising space to help defray the cost of putting out their monthly periodical (as well as helpful and informative articles for us MRRing hobbyist) and the latter accepts NO advertising, with the cost of the magazine coming entirely out of subscriptions. (I think they do take donations though?) CR's logic for operating this way is so that they can give honest assessments (good and bad) in their product reviews - without the "appearance" of being influenced or biased by their advertisers - i.e. if they had any.
Now, I am in no way implying that MR is influenced or biased this way in their reviews because they allow advertising. CR's method just makes the argument moot. CR will also not even allow their name to be mentioned by manufacturer's whose products were given good reviews in their magazine.
Even so, every reviewer is going to have their own biases, preferences, bents, and quirks when reviewing a particular product. Therefore, every review written must be taken for what it is; the useful information sifted through and processed by the reader and the less worthwhile or unimportant points or portions (for the reader) cast aside or ignored.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL tstage Sir MadogEven Marklin, with their Trix brand, get a slice of that cake. I wish Marklin were still producing Trix locomotives. Their Mikes are absolutely beautiful - both detail-wise and operationally. I bought both their NYC Mikes off eBay for over 1/2 off MSRP. Tom That's why they went out of business, nobody bought them at regular price. And, while the Mike is a nice model, selling PA1's with Lionel like swivel pilots will not get you far in the North American HO market. If you want to sell trains in this market, they need to be built to certian standards. Having been in this hobby a long time and worked in it as well, I have seen this over and over. Sheldon
If you want to sell trains in this market, they need to be built to certian standards. Having been in this hobby a long time and worked in it as well, I have seen this over and over.
Marklin and Trix as their DC/DCC brand are still in business, but, aside from some bread and butter locos, all their releases are limited runs only. They have not issued any new US outline loco for some time. From what I have heard by Chinese whispers, Marklin/Trix are pondering to re-release the Big Boy, but with a new sound decoder.
I would love to see Marklin/Trix come out with some small steam or early diesels. You can bet they would be gorgeous and run well. And I'm sure there would be a price tag to them, too.
Sir MadogMarklin and Trix as their DC/DCC brand are still in business, but, aside from some bread and butter locos, all their releases are limited runs only. They have not issued any new US outline loco for some time. From what I have heard by Chinese whispers, Marklin/Trix are pondering to re-release the Big Boy, but with a new sound decoder.
I know, but after how many bankruptcies? or near bankruptcies? Athearn (just one example) has never been bankrupt, beter business model and more marketable product I suspect.
Crandall,
Guess that must be in the print version - I don't have September yet.
The online version lists scale speed at different voltages for DC and steps for DCC and drawbar pull but no reference to other class J models or an 'average' model
Paul.
Keep in mind reviews are only one thing MR does. It primarily does stories on layouts, techniques for doing scenery and structures, some historical background stories, etc. Model Railroad News on the other hand, that has reviews as it's primary focus, gives you much more information and does much more thorough reviews - 4-5 pages vs. say 1 page in MR. MRN can give you much more detailed information, and usually has more direct input from the reviewer..."I liked this", "I didn't like this", "I will / will not consider buying one of these products in the future" etc.
Questioning some comments about MTH's possible future demise, didn't they just start (several years anyway) dabbling in HO? I think most of their business is on the 3-rail stuff isn't it? It kind of reminds me of what Lionel tried, HO, and then eventually retreated back to what they do best. As far as MTH 3 rail products, do they use DCS in it as well and is it different than the standard in 3 rail?
I'm only asking these questions to remind people that HO is not their bread and butter, and maybe MTH feels that they will do it their way or not at all.
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
Geared Steam As far as MTH 3 rail products, do they use DCS in it as well and is it different than the standard in 3 rail?
As far as MTH 3 rail products, do they use DCS in it as well and is it different than the standard in 3 rail?
I've been out of three-rail trains for a while, but I know the "standard" for sound and DCC-type operation is Lionel's system, which Lionel and Atlas and perhaps some other manufacturers offer in their engines.
I believe MTH has their own system which isn't compatible with the Lionel system. But then MTH makes reissues of old Lionel train products under license from Lionel, so I could be wrong??
Does anyone remember the Model Railroader review of the Heritage 2-8-4 when they first came out? The review was glowing with a passing remark about a bit of slippage that would probably go away with use.
Being very fond of this engine I bought one. Well the bit of slippage was major and that engine could hardly pull its own weight. The various boards were full of complaints. Too bad Model Railroader had not looked a bit further and would have realized the slippage was a major problem. The next model the 2-8-8-2 had the same problem. The later runs installed friction tires to correct the problem. Who wants friction tires?
don7Does anyone remember the Model Railroader review of the Heritage 2-8-4 when they first came out? The review was glowing with a passing remark about a bit of slippage that would probably go away with use. Being very fond of this engine I bought one. Well the bit of slippage was major and that engine could hardly pull its own weight. The various boards were full of complaints. Too bad Model Railroader had not looked a bit further and would have realized the slippage was a major problem. The next model the 2-8-8-2 had the same problem. The later runs installed friction tires to correct the problem. Who wants friction tires?
I read the issue with the Heritage Berkshires and avoided them since they would not pull anything and the first run had the incorrect drivers, without the thickness of the tires. I don't believe they mentioned the driver problem at that time, but I could be wrong about the report. I did purchase two of the latest P2K sound Berkshires since the drivers issue was solved and they added traction tires. I am not super happy with traction tires, but the last run models do pull well and run like a jewel.
CZ
With regard to running MTH HO steamers ( and BLI too, for that matter ) in DC mode, You have to understand that with all the auxiliary features they're just going to crawl at 12 volts. For those who have a really large powerpack like a Controlmaster 20, the answer is to put it in G Scale mode. BLI and MTH engines simply need more amps and, in G mode, they're perfectly happy with 16 - 18 volts of throttle. My beef with these engines is the "jackrabbit" starts and the long time it takes them to cycle from forward to reverse.
You mean you can't throw the Johnson bar into reverse when you lose the air and are headed toward Deadman's Curve? What a dumb simulation.
JimValle With regard to running MTH HO steamers ( and BLI too, for that matter ) in DC mode, You have to understand that with all the auxiliary features they're just going to crawl at 12 volts. For those who have a really large powerpack like a Controlmaster 20, the answer is to put it in G Scale mode. BLI and MTH engines simply need more amps and, in G mode, they're perfectly happy with 16 - 18 volts of throttle. My beef with these engines is the "jackrabbit" starts and the long time it takes them to cycle from forward to reverse.
You are right about the MTH being happy on 16 to 18 volts, but they are selling to an HO market that uses 0 to 12V DC and has been using this for many years. Now they are expected to purchase new transformers and possibly burn up the motors in their old models.
To be fair, most sound models that can run on DC or DCC do not perform well on DC since the first 8 to 9 volts are dedicated to the sound and light portion of the model and the motor is limited to just a few volts increase after it starts running. If the design of the decoder could be modified to allow the motor to use the full range of voltage, the DC performance of the model would be better.
When they did the review of the GP20, they didn't notice that the walkways were green. They are supposed to be black.
IIRC, they didn't give proto credit for giving the BN/GN HH GP20s for having the correct 5 steps going up to the walkway.
Vincent
Wants: 1. high-quality, sound equipped, SD40-2s, C636s, C30-7s, and F-units in BN. As for ones that don't cost an arm and a leg, that's out of the question....
2. An end to the limited-production and other crap that makes models harder to get and more expensive.
Jim:
Agreed, with a Controlmaster 20, the BLI's I have are more responsive on the higher-voltage G-scale setting. I also get better control using the "Nudge" switch to get them going smoother.
The problem boils down to the fact that they are NOT compatable running at the same time as a normal pure DC loco, and I have to remember to reset the Controlmaster figurations between running sessions for fear of damaging the rather sensitive 'can' motors of my pure DC locos by leaving the power pack accidentally on the "G" scale voltage.
At least that's what I've been told by a lot of other model railroaders--that the extra four volts of DC power can damage a can motor irreparably. So, I can either run the locos that MATCH the railroad I model--DC brass--or run the locos that DON'T match the railroad I model--dual-mode BLI's.
After the review of the N&W 4-8-4's in this months MR, I wouldn't even consider getting an MTH steamer and further confusing the issue, LOL! And sound's not an issue, I can live without it.
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
The BLI locos reach a respectable top speed at 12 volts though. The MTH's need 24 volts. The problem with the BLIs on DC is that they don;t start moving until there's 6 volts or more on the rails, to allow the voltage to get high enough to activate the sounds. This is where MRC's skew wound controls is a handicap - with finer control at the bottom end, you have to crank the throttle more to get over that 6 volt threshold. By that time, you only have 1/3 os the control range left to go from dead stop to full throttle.
For DC sound they need a reverse skew wound control. Minor twist jumps to 5 volts, leaving 2/3 or more of the knob's range for actual moving speed control.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
I'd be curious to know how higher voltage can harm a can motor. Usually, DC motors just go faster, and/or develop more torque (and draw more current) the more voltage you give them. Since you won't be racing, and will maintain reasonably scale speeds, the upper end of the available voltage range could be immaterial. On the other hand, if your lower throttle settings are at high voltage with a square wave form (pulse width modulation) the higher voltage spikes could be harmful, in that the extra heat they generate could melt or burn something.
If your can motor is of the coreless type (stationary windings and a rotating stator) all bets are off. Unless you are flying RC helicopters, I'm guessing it is not a coreless type.
I hope someone can explain this further, because I'm tripping over my ignorance.
Robt. Livingston I'd be curious to know how higher voltage can harm a can motor. Usually, DC motors just go faster, and/or develop more torque (and draw more current) the more voltage you give them. Since you won't be racing, and will maintain reasonably scale speeds, the upper end of the available voltage range could be immaterial. On the other hand, if your lower throttle settings are at high voltage with a square wave form (pulse width modulation) the higher voltage spikes could be harmful, in that the extra heat they generate could melt or burn something. If your can motor is of the coreless type (stationary windings and a rotating stator) all bets are off. Unless you are flying RC helicopters, I'm guessing it is not a coreless type. I hope someone can explain this further, because I'm tripping over my ignorance.
Robert:
Me too. I'm just going by what I've been hearing as far as the extra voltage.
Frankly, I accidentally left the power pack on "G" a couple of times, and I was really kinda/ sorta thrilled at the very smooth response I was getting in the lower speed range from my locos (even the open-frame ones). But I reverted back to 'normal' for HO when I realized what I'd done, because I was kind of nervous about the additional voltage eventually frying my motors.
So--can anyone out there come up with a solution? I realize that this is taking the original post off-topic a little, but it's opened up a whole new series of questions for me. If I CAN run the Pure DC on the extra "G" setting voltage, then it means that my dual-modes will also be more responsive and I can quit having to change over (or forgetting to, as it is) under normal operating conditions.
'Tis a conundrum, as they say.
Andy? Got any answers for THIS one?
Gentlemen, I give yo Ohm's Law. E=IR, voltage = current times resistance. Solve for current (remember algebra?), I=E/R. Now, the motor reistance isn't going to change, but if you raise the voltage, you raise the current. Now, power in watts is I^2 * R. As in, power dissipated goes up as the SQUARE of current - double current, power goes up FOUR times.
Won;t take much before your motor windings are generating more heat than the casing can dissipate. One fried motor, coming up. If a motor is rated for 12 volts, it's not going to last that long at double that. In fact you can play around with the equations using basic algebra and another way to specufy the power in watts in E^2/R. So - double the volts, keep resistance the same, and you quadruple the power.
Simple version with numbers: 10 volts, 100 ohms resistance. E^2/R = (10x10)/100 = 100/100 = 1 watt. Double voltage to 20 volts. (20x20)/100 = 400/100 = 4 watts. FOUR TIMES the heat.
OK, I've got that. Heat goes up exponentially as power input increases. When you exceed the rate of heat dissipation, you get melting or burning. But since I come from a racing motor background, I've been there many times, and I've noted that locomotive motors are extremely low power performers, at modest voltage (12 max). So I would think you could put lots more voltage through the motors before you got to damage through over heating. But as I mentioned earlier, the mode of power modulation (the throttle) is the issue. If it is pure DC, things stay cool, but if it is PWM, things heat right up.
I purchased the MTH j type 611 for $369 on a website retailer. If you have DC you cannot enjoy the control of the sounds on most engines anyway. The engine running on DCC is very nice and will crawl even at the lowest throttle setting. The horn is my favorite and sounds way better then any other J type i have owned in HO scale. I never pay MSRP for a MTH engine and i never will.
GTX765 I purchased the MTH j type 611 for $369 on a website retailer. If you have DC you cannot enjoy the control of the sounds on most engines anyway. The engine running on DCC is very nice and will crawl even at the lowest throttle setting. The horn is my favorite and sounds way better then any other J type i have owned in HO scale. I never pay MSRP for a MTH engine and i never will.
Thanks for your input. It indeed does look like a nice engine. What really lured me to it were the illuminated class lights. Did you find this feature to be a plus as well? MTH is really changing the hobby in a good way with regards to class lights/marker lamps.
Sadly, all I see in the new MTH N&W J is yet another model aimed at the growing moneyed collector/dabbler faction of the hobby. Take a moment to honestly consider just how many hobbyists with N&W-based layouts of a size that will in any way justify this mainline locomotive and set in the period when the J's actually were in operation, could be out there. The number has to be very small. When the new N&W J is taken together with the other huge steam-era models introduced in the past year or two, it appears the hobby is moving toward becoming little more than a group of folks who collect plastic brass.
I would add, that from a side view, the MTH model, with that huge, elongated and ugly air gap between the firebox and trailing truck, makes it look very much like its larger O-gauge toy train brother by MTH (the same failing is painfully true of the MTH K-4 in both scales). No one who has ever owned a truly quality scale model locomotive could ever ignor such a gross failing. How can folks get excited over the addition of working class lights, yet overlook the fact that the model appears highly unprototypical/unrealistic from a side view...the angle most folks will see it from? And the darn thing can't even function fully/realistically on between 2/3 and 3/4 of the HO layouts out there today, yet gets a glowing review in MR!
CNJ831