September MR just came today and the number one product review is the new MTH N&W Class J (like we needed another one, but anyway), and finally, without too much dancing around, this review actually pointed out the lack of suitable speed in DC operation at NMRA recommended voltages.
The speed chart in the rewiew shows that at 12 volts DC the loco only went 30 smph, no higher voltage was charted! The text does mention that the loco will handle up to 24 volts DC, and also points out that 24 volts exceeds NMRA S-9.
Thank you to Dana Kawala and to MR for telling the truth openly.
Mike Wolf, may once again remind you that you will not be getting any of my business. I know you will not loose any sleep over that, but for every person like me who speaks up, there are likely hundreds who just buy something else.
Sheldon
ATLANTIC CENTRALThe speed chart in the rewiew shows that at 12 volts DC the loco only went 30 smph, no higher voltage was charted! The text does mention that the loco will handle up to 24 volts DC, and also points out that 24 volts exceeds NMRA S-9.
Sheldon,
Actually, this has been pointed out (or at least alluded to) in prior MR reviews of MTH HO locomotives. I distinctly remember them saying that in order to run one at "top speed" on DC, you needed a full 24V to do that.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Since MTH is trying to convert everyone from DCC to DCS, I doubt that they care too much about the speed problem at 12 volts DC.
At $449 list, I think they're a little steep for HO.
Enjoy
Paul
What I like initally about the J is the fact that it can run a steam/smoke generator to make it look more realistic. I bought the best J on the market last year- from BLI- before MTH came out with theirs. I saw one at a show and picked it up- for it being "all metal" it isn't that much more impressive than my BLI, if at all. Certainly the price tag is not impressive.
My biggest turn off to the J is the way the wheels are done. Both the driving wheels and the pilot wheels are WAY TOO SHINY. On the prototype this was not the case. They are black all the way to the rails; there aren't any little silver shiny rims going around the circumference. The lack of the axle ends being painted is a turn off as well- I painted mine on my BLI and isn't a huge deal.
The turn(s) off for me from MTH is the steep price tag and the way the wheels are modeled. Could have done better (especially for the price!)
Modeling the N&W freelanced at the height of their steam era in HO.
Daniel G.
tstage Actually, this has been pointed out (or at least alluded to) in prior MR reviews of MTH HO locomotives. I distinctly remember them saying that in order to run one at "top speed" on DC, you needed a full 24V to do that. Tom
Quite correct. As I recall, this fact was specifically pointed out by MR regarding the very first HO locomotive MTH offered, although this shortcoming has been rather down-played in subsequent reviews of later MTH models.
CNJ831
CNJ831 tstage Actually, this has been pointed out (or at least alluded to) in prior MR reviews of MTH HO locomotives. I distinctly remember them saying that in order to run one at "top speed" on DC, you needed a full 24V to do that. Tom Quite correct. As I recall, this fact was specifically pointed out by MR regarding the very first HO locomotive MTH offered, although this shortcoming has been rather down-played in subsequent reviews of later MTH models. CNJ831
"Down played" and "alluded to" are exactly how it was handled in the past.
Is that MR's bias toward DCC or toward their advertisor? Anyway, I'm glad to see it not down played or slanted this time. I felt this review gave a fair accounting to both the customers (ALL of them) and MTH.
Interesting, I will have to wait till mid-September to read the review but it might be a good direction for MR to take.
On a side note, I was reading the November 1972 MR and in the Trade Topics section it had this blurb:
"Our Trade Topics department aims at helping you evaluate merchandise toward your own particular needs and standards. While we gladly specify points of excellence and points of caution, we feel that realistic description is most helpful of all. We are also on the lookout for suggestions that will help you make the best use of the materials.
Merchandise that we feel is unsuited for any kind of modeler - advanced or novice- will not be reviewed"
I find that over the years they have pretty much stuck to this ideal and do not generally get very negative but that is not the intent of the reviews from what I can gather.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL"Down played" and "alluded to" are exactly how it was handled in the past. Sheldon
It couldn't have been downplayed all that much prior to this, Sheldon, because I understood it the first time.
yeah unless it is from walthers. they only sold a few pieces of junk and i must have gotten them all. besides, they guy who wrote that is probably dead by now anyway.
grizlump
ATLANTIC CENTRAL September MR just came today and the number one product review is the new MTH N&W Class J (like we needed another one, but anyway), and finally, without too much dancing around, this review actually pointed out the lack of suitable speed in DC operation at NMRA recommended voltages. The speed chart in the rewiew shows that at 12 volts DC the loco only went 30 smph, no higher voltage was charted! The text does mention that the loco will handle up to 24 volts DC, and also points out that 24 volts exceeds NMRA S-9. Thank you to Dana Kawala and to MR for telling the truth openly. Mike Wolf, may once again remind you that you will not be getting any of my business. I know you will not loose any sleep over that, but for every person like me who speaks up, there are likely hundreds who just buy something else. Sheldon
Shame on you MR and you are directed to attend a remedial reading class at your local community college every Saturday during the month of September.
S-9 does not say that Full Throttle Voltage cannot exceed 12VDC but rather that it cannot be less than 12VDC. Obviously MTH has installed a 24VDC motor in their J and a Full Throttle Voltage of 24VDC is well over that 12VDC threshold; that's fine -- get yourself a variac and crank it up to 24VDC. As long as you are operating all-MTH equipment then you're going to be A-OK.
Do not pass this up as a perfect opportunity to reestablish friendship with that pain-in-the-youknowwhere. Tell him you would like to bury the hatchet -- I've know you have wanted to do that but the back of the head is not the proper place -- and invite him over to operate his new Bachmann Big Boy -- I know! Bachmann doesn't make a Big Boy but that is immaterial here! -- on your layout! When it immediately peels out to a speed of 300 plus miles per hour and goes up in a puff of smoke at the end of ten feet tell him that he must have received a defective unit from XYZ Internet Sales and he needs to return it for an exchange. HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! After all, you're not having any overspeed problems with your MTH Class J.
Knowing MTH's penchant for suing at the drop of a hat we can expect they will shortly file suit against the NMRA demanding damages and demanding that the voltage specs of S-9 be changed to a minimum of 24VDC. At which time they will start putting 48VDC motors in their locomotives and away we go!
Oh, and by the way! I was hoping that my September issue would show up in todays mail. It's a rare occurance but I have been know to receive it on the fifth day following the cover being posted on the forum masthead. Tomorrow or Saturday I reckon!!
From the far, far reaches of the wild, wild west I am: rtpoteet
Hi!
Reading the OP, a few things occured to me that I want to highlight.
First of all, it is good for the Hobby that reviewers "tell it like it is", and tell us about the good, bad, and ugly features of the product. With that info, I can figure out if I want to pursue the item or not.
I don't own any MTH products, but have admired some of their products, especially in "O". As a retired business analyst, I give "Mike" a lot of credit and admiration for building up his business from scratch.
If the HO MTH locos don't run to "our" standards, then "just say no". Assuming MTH realizes their products shortcomings (in our eyes), and he wants the market, he will put in a fix. If he is trying to establish a different market - or doesn't care - he won't.
I've been playing with trains since the '50s, and have been in HO since the early '60s. I've seen a lot of products and manufacturers come and go. The good ones - that put out a desirable product - will usually succeed. The one's that put out faulty or cheap merchandise will usually fail. I suspect MTH will be and has been in the former category. And like the man said........ "that's the way it is"!
ENJOY,
Mobilman44
ENJOY !
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
Being a straight DC operator myself--for reasons I have no desire to get into--I've pretty much given up on dual or triple mode locos entirely, anyway, so the fact that this particular MTH loco can only get up to about 30smph on 12 volts pure DC doesn't really surprise me. All of the BLI's I bought (and are now safely ensconsed in their original boxes awaiting some kind of selling fate) gave me an approximate similar problem--controlling them in the upper 1/3 quadrant of my Controlmaster 20 power supply.
I do realize that MR promotes DCC pretty heavily, and I do realize that a lot of modelers on this forum subscribe to that particular form of operation, and I say good for you.
But for the approximately 2/3rds of us still out here happily running on DC, I'd say that MTH is missing quite a bit of the market, at least IMO. We don't WANT 24 volts, thank you. It would turn our current motive power into little puffs of nasty smelling smoke.
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
Pathfinder {quoted from MR in years past] "...Merchandise that we feel is unsuited for any kind of modeler - advanced or novice- will not be reviewed..."
"...Merchandise that we feel is unsuited for any kind of modeler - advanced or novice- will not be reviewed..."
I wonder how successful Consumer Reports would be if they didn't occasionally point out seriously flawed offerings in their range of usually reviewed items. To me, flawed items deserve as much time in press as do those that excel. That way, credibility flourishes for those who may have a niggling suspicion or wonder if the reviews are selective, and if selective, probably biased. Point out the 'best, and why they are judged so, and point out the worst, and why they are judged so. Set the range fer cryin' out loud! If that goes against the business model, then by gosh make darned sure what you do review gets the real once-over, and that all the blemishes are laid bare.
-Crandell
ATLANTIC CENTRAL "Down played" and "alluded to" are exactly how it was handled in the past. Is that MR's bias toward DCC or toward their advertisor? Anyway, I'm glad to see it not down played or slanted this time. I felt this review gave a fair accounting to both the customers (ALL of them) and MTH. Sheldon
I don't wish to criticise the review, nor do I wish to rain on your parade if you feel that the review was more unbiased than what you normally see.
However, the fact that the engine will not reach full speed on 12 volts DC is not mentioned in the review anywhere, especially not in the Speed Test section of the review where one would expect to find it. The reviewer does mention that the top speed in DCC and DCS modes was 74smph, and that one prototype unit reached 110 mph during a test. The only place I see that the top speed on DC mentioned is in the fine print where they show the voltages and current.
I have no interest in anything steam, but if I did and the unit's speed was of concern, I'd think that I would like to have seen such an obvious issue mentioned clearly right there in the section where it belonged. I certainly wouldn't have been happy to get the engine home and then wonder why the thing was crawling along. And I'll bet there's no label on the box that says "WARNING: This engine does not reach full speed when used with DC" either.
twhite Being a straight DC operator myself--for reasons I have no desire to get into--I've pretty much given up on dual or triple mode locos entirely, anyway, so the fact that this particular MTH loco can only get up to about 30smph on 12 volts pure DC doesn't really surprise me. All of the BLI's I bought (and are now safely ensconsed in their original boxes awaiting some kind of selling fate) gave me an approximate similar problem--controlling them in the upper 1/3 quadrant of my Controlmaster 20 power supply. I do realize that MR promotes DCC pretty heavily, and I do realize that a lot of modelers on this forum subscribe to that particular form of operation, and I say good for you. But for the approximately 2/3rds of us still out here happily running on DC, I'd say that MTH is missing quite a bit of the market, at least IMO. We don't WANT 24 volts, thank you. It would turn our current motive power into little puffs of nasty smelling smoke. Tom
The control in the upper 1/3 of the throttle 'problem' isn;t the same as the "only goes 30smph on 12 volts" issue with the MTH. The control in the upper 1/3 issue is goign to be the same with DC sound no matter what - unles syou don;t want "sitting still" sounds. Plain and simple, you ahev to get power to run the sound BEFORE the motor moves or else you will never get stationary sounds. I honestly don't think that should be a huge surprise. Until there is enough demand in some realted industry that uses the same chips as model railroad sound decoders, so that said chips can be produced on versions that run on 2.1 volts or so instead of 5, sound in DC is goign to be liek this, or else it will be limited to sounds the loco makes while moving.
MTH is a whole other story, run mainly on the ego of Mike Wolf. Sure, they want you to use DCS instead of DCC - awesome but then they ALSO want you to run ONLY MTH locos because there is no such thing as a DCS decoder you can retrofit to existing locos. How this company continues to succeed is really beyond me. Hmm, here's my awesome business plan - let's make soemthign that is compeltely incompatible with the standards that govern 99.9% of the hobby industry. Are there really that many colelctors who just buy the stuff and set it on a shelf? And if you're going to collect, why recent mass produced stuff? Seems silly to 'collect' somethign made in the thousands.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Hi Tom,
I totally agree with what you have said. I too operate in DC only and find it quite adequate for my needs being that I am a lone wolf operator.
As for reviews of products, I find that the NMRA magazine called Scale Rails gives quite honest and usefull reviews.
Frank
"If you need a helping hand, you'll find one at the end of your arm."
maxmanI don't wish to criticise the review, nor do I wish to rain on your parade if you feel that the review was more unbiased than what you normally see.
I understand and agree, I was trying to give them the benefit of the doubt. But apparently the PC police think I should not have even commented. This review provided WAY more insite and less "you have to read between the lines" regarding the DC performance of MTH locos than previous reviews.
Tom, also being a DC operator (as I'm sure every regular on here knows), I understand your frustration with dual mode decoder equiped locos. My Aristo Craft Train Engineer throttles like them even less than most more conventional throttles do.
I have a few BLI/PCM pieces, bought at the right price, and promptly rewired without sound or decoders. They do run good once you get all that stuff out of them. Should you wish to rewire any, send me a PM.
I have some Bachmann GE 70 tonners too that came with built in decoders, they where really bad, until the decoders where bypassed.
I don't understand, do MTH products run on DCC at all? Or do you simply need DCS?
What is the deal with DCS anyway? How does it compare to DCC?
One thing I have to admire about MTH's recent HO offerings is the introduction of illuminated class lights and marker lamps. In HO this seems pretty revolutionary, no?
rrinkerThe control in the upper 1/3 of the throttle 'problem' isn;t the same as the "only goes 30smph on 12 volts" issue with the MTH. The control in the upper 1/3 issue is goign to be the same with DC sound no matter what - unles syou don;t want "sitting still" sounds. Plain and simple, you ahev to get power to run the sound BEFORE the motor moves or else you will never get stationary sounds. I honestly don't think that should be a huge surprise. Until there is enough demand in some realted industry that uses the same chips as model railroad sound decoders, so that said chips can be produced on versions that run on 2.1 volts or so instead of 5, sound in DC is goign to be liek this, or else it will be limited to sounds the loco makes while moving.
I don't mean to speak for Tom, but who said anything about sound?
How about a DC version from MTH? Ha,Ha
rjake4454I don't understand, do MTH products run on DCC at all? Or do you simply need DCS?What is the deal with DCS anyway? How does it compare to DCC?
rjake,
MTH locomotives with DCS sound decoders will run on DC, DCC, and DCS (or Digital Command System) - i.e. MTH's proprietary operating system. Although they will run on DCC, my understanding is that you are pretty limited to the CVs that you can access in programming mode (thereby limiting your ability to tweak your locomotive's performance, if so desired), as well as number of sound functions you can play. If you want to explore and utilize ALL the capabilities of an MTH locomotive, you therefore must purchase one of their DCS controllers @ $230 MSRP:
As far as DCS, I guess the question(s) most common on DCC user's mind might be:
It just seems as if MTH is bull-headedly limiting their appeal and marketability to the rest of the hobby. (At least that's my take on it.) But...that's their choice, isn't it?
tstage Why create a "different" sound decoder that won't fully operate on a well-established system like DCC? Why create yet "another" operating system that is totally incompatible with DCC-equipped locomotives?
Kind of like Apple vs. the PC?
maxman tstage Why create a "different" sound decoder that won't fully operate on a well-established system like DCC? Why create yet "another" operating system that is totally incompatible with DCC-equipped locomotives? Kind of like Apple vs. the PC?
No, more like let's build a PC that will only get online with the maker's internet provider, home page and router. Rather foolish in my mind
I have basically "spammed" anything MTH. Totally ignore their "stuff"
Modeling B&O- Chessie Bob K. www.ssmrc.org
MTH´s product policy apparently follows the attitude "be different or die" - the latter being the most likely result in not so a distant time.
For years now, 12 - 16 V DC and DCC has been the "standard" for all HO scale, non-Marklin model railroading manufacturers. Even Marklin, with their Trix brand, get a slice of that cake. Marklin with their AC, resp. Motorola protocoll system is still in business, but only for reasons of nostalgia and reputation of quality.
Would you buy a car that needs a type of fuel which is not readily available or goes only 30 mph with the fuel you can buy everywhere?
tstage rjake, MTH locomotives with DCS sound decoders will run on DC, DCC, and DCS (or Digital Command System) - i.e. MTH's proprietary operating system. Although they will run on DCC, my understanding is that you are pretty limited to the CVs that you can access in programming mode (thereby limiting your ability to tweak your locomotive's performance, if so desired), as well as number of sound functions you can play. If you want to explore and utilize ALL the capabilities of an MTH locomotive, you therefore must purchase one of their DCS controllers @ $230 MSRP: As far as DCS, I guess the question(s) most common on DCC user's mind might be: Why create a "different" sound decoder that won't fully operate on a well-established system like DCC? Why create yet "another" operating system that is totally incompatible with DCC-equipped locomotives? It just seems as if MTH is bull-headedly limiting their appeal and marketability to the rest of the hobby. (At least that's my take on it.) But...that's their choice, isn't it? Tom
Thanks for clearing that up for me. Much appreciated. I will be staying away from MTH, that is unless they decide to make an HO version T1 that they made in O (the early T1 prototype,), and it would have to have operating class lights and marker lamps just like on the O gauge version.
If I ever bought any MTH HO engine, I would never run them with smoke....ever. And I would more than likely not want any crew chatter or anything of the sort that MTH and BLI's Paragon 2 puts out nowadays. So I wouldn't mind at all not being able to access certain CVs.
Not my thing, no offense to anyone who likes these features.
Hi from Belgium,
I beleive it's a shame to see some manufacturer trying to sale products which are not fully compatible with the other; of course the MTH j class can run at 12volts but....
Here in Europe we have a manufacturer, Marklin, which had his system, 16volts AC with his own track and accessories, but what a disaster in fact, first their items are'nt compatible with the others models.
Some modeler are by this way confined to Marklin and further they must by the fact accept compromises like model not at scale, wheels with deep flanges, DCC difficult to use and the list is endless.
By the time and I beleive strongly this, in Europe not including UK,Marklin had make a real brake about the way the modelers have try to make realistic and prototypical models and layout.
So I beleive that It's dangerous that a big manufacturer like MTH try to come with his own system which are not a full compatible or different from the others, and as I have read in the last years it's not the first time that MTH try it.
For the first time since the 50's we have a system,DCC, which is fully compatible but which impose some rules to the manufacturers, it's important for the future of the industry that the system stay fully compatible for all of us.
Marc
Sir MadogWould you buy a car that needs a type of fuel which is not readily available or goes only 30 mph with the fuel you can buy everywhere?
meh--We have people buying hybrid cars that have $7500 battery packs----
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
Well, I'm going to wade in here, more to defend MR than anything. I pulled out some issues and did a quick scan, accross a spectrum of manufacturers and products. It seems the MR actually is pretty truthful in mentioning differences in performance on DC vs DCC, paint, and details. While I haven't read this review in person, it appears they are just stating facts as they generally do for other products they . review. No where did anyone mention if MR said "this product stinks" or "don't buy it" I think people are thinking this is a "gotcha" moment when it isn't. The top speed is too slow, but many other loco's top speed are too high (usually meaning their low end speed is too high too).
I don't own any MTH products, if Mr Mike makes some 60's era stuff for middle America, I might be inclined. As far as sound goes, the basic ones I use in DCC are engine sounds, horn and bell, if DCS decoder operating on a DCC system can do that, I'm happy. Otherwise I will determine what I need to do to replace decoder or motor to make it do what I need it to do. Just like repowering old BB Athearns.
Ricky
Yeah but they take the same gas to run the gas engine as every other car on the road.
None of the analogies is really great, because there is no industry standard on one side. The MTH thing is more like someone saying no, my version of a pound will be 15.2 ounces. Disregard the standard and make your own thing.
Sheldon - well, he mentioned BLI/PCM - those have sound. Sound in DC is going to have those issues. Although perhaps a verion of the sound decoder that didn't do DCC would actually work well on your Aristo PWM system - the DCC portion probably gets confused by the PWM, but if it didn;t do that, you could probably get enough RMS voltage to operate the sound system with barely a crack of the throttle, thus not loosing all the control range. But I really don;t see anyone making that effort, there would be little market for such devices. Now, if you don't want sound/dcc, back when they used QSI and Loksound decoders, BLI/PCM offered 'stealth' versions - same loco, minus the dcc/sound decoder. Nothing to strip out, otherwise identical. MTH doing that? Yeah, right.