Crandell,
I understand and agree, it is not a scientific sample by any means. It is however not a club. While it does have some homogeneity as ANY group with a common interest will, it has no group layout, written group goals or rules, no dues, etc. Some have been in the group a LONG time, some relatively short. This does make it at least a little more of a "cross-section" of at least the HO modelers in this area.
Also, for whatever it is worth in additional data, we have a local hobby shop, that is mainly an O and large scale store. Some HO, but a good place to special order from. He sells lots of MTH O/large scale. He has sold ONE MTH HO loco, to a beginner in the hobby, who was very unhappy with it. So, If the goal of MTH is to create a NEW market, based on the type of customers they have in larger scales, I'm not sure that is going well either.
I could be wrong, what do I know, I'm just a hick with a pickup, a gun and a few trains.
Sheldon
Just to be scrupulous about sampling and biases in sampling, I'll play devil's advocate for just one post...and that will be it.
Sheldon, if you had gone to, or even worked at, a Ford dealership, you would expect to be able to say, later to a friend, that not one person in the 30 customers on the lot when you polled was interested in a Volkswagen. And it should surprise no one paying attention.
At your club, it would be possible that one MTH user was a regular, and that the others accommodated him in one or more ways so that he felt welcome and could avail himself of the benefits offered by the membership and its facilities. But it would be highly unlikely because clubs don't tend to work that way. Any aggregation of people, any group, is likely to tend to develop a homogeneity over time. It is natural.
You could just as well state that you belong to a club where everyone uses DCS exclusively, except there is one die-hard DCC user in the bunch. We can't draw much in the way of useful information from either of those claims, except that in those aggregations one control system rules supreme. Going on to "generalize" to the greater population of HO model train enthusiasts is a stretch. You would have to sample 40-60 more clubs across the country in order to establish whether one system was really in niche status. Even then, it would only be at clubs, and would not allow valid inferences to be drawn about the much larger population of 'lone wolves' out there.
Just for the record, though, I do find it very hard to believe that MTH has more than perhaps 1-2% of the market.
-Crandell
grayfox1119 I have the MTH Mohawk, it is as true to actual as I have seen, very high quality, and a great runner on DCC or DCS. I am running only DCC/DCS, so DC mode is not an issue for me. It would seem to me that MTH has made a marketing decision to design their HO line for DCC/DCS. Now when batteries become so efficient and sized for HO locomotives, then we will no longer have to concern ourselves over DC/DCC/DCS. And that is not as far off as some think it is. Major advances are being made in battery technology with newer materials and techniques, that will make small batteries very powerful and last much longer between charging as well as requiring very short recharge cycles.
I have the MTH Mohawk, it is as true to actual as I have seen, very high quality, and a great runner on DCC or DCS. I am running only DCC/DCS, so DC mode is not an issue for me. It would seem to me that MTH has made a marketing decision to design their HO line for DCC/DCS.
Now when batteries become so efficient and sized for HO locomotives, then we will no longer have to concern ourselves over DC/DCC/DCS. And that is not as far off as some think it is. Major advances are being made in battery technology with newer materials and techniques, that will make small batteries very powerful and last much longer between charging as well as requiring very short recharge cycles.
Yes I would say MTH has made a marketing decision, only time will tell if it was a smart one. I am a member in a local round robin modeling group of about 25 guys. Some have large layouts, some small, some are old, some much younger, some use DCC, some use DC, some are into sound, some not so much, some collect stuff, others have a more focused modeling style, some spend a lot, some a little, some follow their prototype closely, some freelance or are "casual" to a prototype. BUT in those 25 guys there is not ONE MTH locomotive.
Yet among us there are hundreds (if not thousands, I have over 100) of Atlas, Bachmann, Broadway/PCM, Athearn, Intermountain, Bowser/Stewart, etc,etc, locomotives.
As for battery power, bring it on. I still use DC, using Aristo Craft Train Engineer throttles. One reason was to avoid decoder installation in over 100 locomotives. Workable radio controlled battery power would be the advancement that would get me to install "equipment" in my locos. Eliminating track power or signal pickup problems would be the ultimate advancement in model trains. A system already popular in large scale.
But unless MTH builds something that works on my layout, as it is powered now (within NMRA Standards and accepted practice for decades) my money will go elsewhere.
Honestly, I'm more impressed by the DCC pantograph and the opening and closing doors, complete with conductor's whistle, on that Roco model. ANd I have zero interest in European prototypes, and limited interest in electric locomotives and passenger trains. But that's just neat how the doors work!
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
I just found this new video of the class j. Its an amazing loco by mth. Look at those class lights!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xeZ9Py-4duE
The MTH engines that have really caught my eye are the Erie Triplex and the Mikado, absolutely amazing sound, class lights, and even though smoke is not my thing, I have to hand it to MTH they really have made some advances in this particular arena. In many ways I feel that MTH has actually surged ahead as one of the leading companies that produces ultra realistic models in HO scale. They seem to have blended the best attributes of both scales, they have successfully transferred the immaculate detail of the premier O gauge engines (along with the nice heft and weight) to a smaller size for the model railroader who has limited space.
And putting engines aside, just look at their excellent selection of rolling stock that is being released. Who else is producing the Powhatan arrow? In my opinion, excluding a few electronic issues like DCS, this company just keeps making one right decision after another.
And for those guys that want some smaller engines, I completely understand, and I don't think there is any reason to worry, I would wager its only a matter of time before MTH releases the best HO 2-8-0 Consolidation of all time. So keep your heads up , this company has a history of having the most diverse engine rosters in O gauge from the smallest to largest. Why would it be any different for their HO line?
Yes, i agree the lighting is impressive and even the UP 9000 has neat lighting on the tender. MTH is making some nice quality engines for those who enjoy the features and have DCC or DCS.
CNJ831When the new N&W J is taken together with the other huge steam-era models introduced in the past year or two, it appears the hobby is moving toward becoming little more than a group of folks who collect plastic brass.
Figures, doesn't it? The aesthetics collector will dictate what gets made/sold and the rest basically learn to scratchbuild.
AAACCH!! Maybe it be better that way. I'm just trying to picture MTH doing a 2-8-0. Can't see it happening
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
Sadly, all I see in the new MTH N&W J is yet another model aimed at the growing moneyed collector/dabbler faction of the hobby. Take a moment to honestly consider just how many hobbyists with N&W-based layouts of a size that will in any way justify this mainline locomotive and set in the period when the J's actually were in operation, could be out there. The number has to be very small. When the new N&W J is taken together with the other huge steam-era models introduced in the past year or two, it appears the hobby is moving toward becoming little more than a group of folks who collect plastic brass.
I would add, that from a side view, the MTH model, with that huge, elongated and ugly air gap between the firebox and trailing truck, makes it look very much like its larger O-gauge toy train brother by MTH (the same failing is painfully true of the MTH K-4 in both scales). No one who has ever owned a truly quality scale model locomotive could ever ignor such a gross failing. How can folks get excited over the addition of working class lights, yet overlook the fact that the model appears highly unprototypical/unrealistic from a side view...the angle most folks will see it from? And the darn thing can't even function fully/realistically on between 2/3 and 3/4 of the HO layouts out there today, yet gets a glowing review in MR!
CNJ831
GTX765 I purchased the MTH j type 611 for $369 on a website retailer. If you have DC you cannot enjoy the control of the sounds on most engines anyway. The engine running on DCC is very nice and will crawl even at the lowest throttle setting. The horn is my favorite and sounds way better then any other J type i have owned in HO scale. I never pay MSRP for a MTH engine and i never will.
I purchased the MTH j type 611 for $369 on a website retailer. If you have DC you cannot enjoy the control of the sounds on most engines anyway. The engine running on DCC is very nice and will crawl even at the lowest throttle setting. The horn is my favorite and sounds way better then any other J type i have owned in HO scale. I never pay MSRP for a MTH engine and i never will.
Thanks for your input. It indeed does look like a nice engine. What really lured me to it were the illuminated class lights. Did you find this feature to be a plus as well? MTH is really changing the hobby in a good way with regards to class lights/marker lamps.
OK, I've got that. Heat goes up exponentially as power input increases. When you exceed the rate of heat dissipation, you get melting or burning. But since I come from a racing motor background, I've been there many times, and I've noted that locomotive motors are extremely low power performers, at modest voltage (12 max). So I would think you could put lots more voltage through the motors before you got to damage through over heating. But as I mentioned earlier, the mode of power modulation (the throttle) is the issue. If it is pure DC, things stay cool, but if it is PWM, things heat right up.
Gentlemen, I give yo Ohm's Law. E=IR, voltage = current times resistance. Solve for current (remember algebra?), I=E/R. Now, the motor reistance isn't going to change, but if you raise the voltage, you raise the current. Now, power in watts is I^2 * R. As in, power dissipated goes up as the SQUARE of current - double current, power goes up FOUR times.
Won;t take much before your motor windings are generating more heat than the casing can dissipate. One fried motor, coming up. If a motor is rated for 12 volts, it's not going to last that long at double that. In fact you can play around with the equations using basic algebra and another way to specufy the power in watts in E^2/R. So - double the volts, keep resistance the same, and you quadruple the power.
Simple version with numbers: 10 volts, 100 ohms resistance. E^2/R = (10x10)/100 = 100/100 = 1 watt. Double voltage to 20 volts. (20x20)/100 = 400/100 = 4 watts. FOUR TIMES the heat.
Robt. Livingston I'd be curious to know how higher voltage can harm a can motor. Usually, DC motors just go faster, and/or develop more torque (and draw more current) the more voltage you give them. Since you won't be racing, and will maintain reasonably scale speeds, the upper end of the available voltage range could be immaterial. On the other hand, if your lower throttle settings are at high voltage with a square wave form (pulse width modulation) the higher voltage spikes could be harmful, in that the extra heat they generate could melt or burn something. If your can motor is of the coreless type (stationary windings and a rotating stator) all bets are off. Unless you are flying RC helicopters, I'm guessing it is not a coreless type. I hope someone can explain this further, because I'm tripping over my ignorance.
I'd be curious to know how higher voltage can harm a can motor. Usually, DC motors just go faster, and/or develop more torque (and draw more current) the more voltage you give them. Since you won't be racing, and will maintain reasonably scale speeds, the upper end of the available voltage range could be immaterial. On the other hand, if your lower throttle settings are at high voltage with a square wave form (pulse width modulation) the higher voltage spikes could be harmful, in that the extra heat they generate could melt or burn something.
If your can motor is of the coreless type (stationary windings and a rotating stator) all bets are off. Unless you are flying RC helicopters, I'm guessing it is not a coreless type.
I hope someone can explain this further, because I'm tripping over my ignorance.
Robert:
Me too. I'm just going by what I've been hearing as far as the extra voltage.
Frankly, I accidentally left the power pack on "G" a couple of times, and I was really kinda/ sorta thrilled at the very smooth response I was getting in the lower speed range from my locos (even the open-frame ones). But I reverted back to 'normal' for HO when I realized what I'd done, because I was kind of nervous about the additional voltage eventually frying my motors.
So--can anyone out there come up with a solution? I realize that this is taking the original post off-topic a little, but it's opened up a whole new series of questions for me. If I CAN run the Pure DC on the extra "G" setting voltage, then it means that my dual-modes will also be more responsive and I can quit having to change over (or forgetting to, as it is) under normal operating conditions.
'Tis a conundrum, as they say.
Andy? Got any answers for THIS one?
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
The BLI locos reach a respectable top speed at 12 volts though. The MTH's need 24 volts. The problem with the BLIs on DC is that they don;t start moving until there's 6 volts or more on the rails, to allow the voltage to get high enough to activate the sounds. This is where MRC's skew wound controls is a handicap - with finer control at the bottom end, you have to crank the throttle more to get over that 6 volt threshold. By that time, you only have 1/3 os the control range left to go from dead stop to full throttle.
For DC sound they need a reverse skew wound control. Minor twist jumps to 5 volts, leaving 2/3 or more of the knob's range for actual moving speed control.
JimValle With regard to running MTH HO steamers ( and BLI too, for that matter ) in DC mode, You have to understand that with all the auxiliary features they're just going to crawl at 12 volts. For those who have a really large powerpack like a Controlmaster 20, the answer is to put it in G Scale mode. BLI and MTH engines simply need more amps and, in G mode, they're perfectly happy with 16 - 18 volts of throttle. My beef with these engines is the "jackrabbit" starts and the long time it takes them to cycle from forward to reverse.
With regard to running MTH HO steamers ( and BLI too, for that matter ) in DC mode, You have to understand that with all the auxiliary features they're just going to crawl at 12 volts. For those who have a really large powerpack like a Controlmaster 20, the answer is to put it in G Scale mode. BLI and MTH engines simply need more amps and, in G mode, they're perfectly happy with 16 - 18 volts of throttle. My beef with these engines is the "jackrabbit" starts and the long time it takes them to cycle from forward to reverse.
Jim:
Agreed, with a Controlmaster 20, the BLI's I have are more responsive on the higher-voltage G-scale setting. I also get better control using the "Nudge" switch to get them going smoother.
The problem boils down to the fact that they are NOT compatable running at the same time as a normal pure DC loco, and I have to remember to reset the Controlmaster figurations between running sessions for fear of damaging the rather sensitive 'can' motors of my pure DC locos by leaving the power pack accidentally on the "G" scale voltage.
At least that's what I've been told by a lot of other model railroaders--that the extra four volts of DC power can damage a can motor irreparably. So, I can either run the locos that MATCH the railroad I model--DC brass--or run the locos that DON'T match the railroad I model--dual-mode BLI's.
After the review of the N&W 4-8-4's in this months MR, I wouldn't even consider getting an MTH steamer and further confusing the issue, LOL! And sound's not an issue, I can live without it.
When they did the review of the GP20, they didn't notice that the walkways were green. They are supposed to be black.
IIRC, they didn't give proto credit for giving the BN/GN HH GP20s for having the correct 5 steps going up to the walkway.
Vincent
Wants: 1. high-quality, sound equipped, SD40-2s, C636s, C30-7s, and F-units in BN. As for ones that don't cost an arm and a leg, that's out of the question....
2. An end to the limited-production and other crap that makes models harder to get and more expensive.
You are right about the MTH being happy on 16 to 18 volts, but they are selling to an HO market that uses 0 to 12V DC and has been using this for many years. Now they are expected to purchase new transformers and possibly burn up the motors in their old models.
To be fair, most sound models that can run on DC or DCC do not perform well on DC since the first 8 to 9 volts are dedicated to the sound and light portion of the model and the motor is limited to just a few volts increase after it starts running. If the design of the decoder could be modified to allow the motor to use the full range of voltage, the DC performance of the model would be better.
CZ
You mean you can't throw the Johnson bar into reverse when you lose the air and are headed toward Deadman's Curve? What a dumb simulation.
don7Does anyone remember the Model Railroader review of the Heritage 2-8-4 when they first came out? The review was glowing with a passing remark about a bit of slippage that would probably go away with use. Being very fond of this engine I bought one. Well the bit of slippage was major and that engine could hardly pull its own weight. The various boards were full of complaints. Too bad Model Railroader had not looked a bit further and would have realized the slippage was a major problem. The next model the 2-8-8-2 had the same problem. The later runs installed friction tires to correct the problem. Who wants friction tires?
Does anyone remember the Model Railroader review of the Heritage 2-8-4 when they first came out? The review was glowing with a passing remark about a bit of slippage that would probably go away with use.
Being very fond of this engine I bought one. Well the bit of slippage was major and that engine could hardly pull its own weight. The various boards were full of complaints. Too bad Model Railroader had not looked a bit further and would have realized the slippage was a major problem. The next model the 2-8-8-2 had the same problem. The later runs installed friction tires to correct the problem. Who wants friction tires?
I read the issue with the Heritage Berkshires and avoided them since they would not pull anything and the first run had the incorrect drivers, without the thickness of the tires. I don't believe they mentioned the driver problem at that time, but I could be wrong about the report. I did purchase two of the latest P2K sound Berkshires since the drivers issue was solved and they added traction tires. I am not super happy with traction tires, but the last run models do pull well and run like a jewel.
Geared Steam As far as MTH 3 rail products, do they use DCS in it as well and is it different than the standard in 3 rail?
As far as MTH 3 rail products, do they use DCS in it as well and is it different than the standard in 3 rail?
I've been out of three-rail trains for a while, but I know the "standard" for sound and DCC-type operation is Lionel's system, which Lionel and Atlas and perhaps some other manufacturers offer in their engines.
I believe MTH has their own system which isn't compatible with the Lionel system. But then MTH makes reissues of old Lionel train products under license from Lionel, so I could be wrong??
Questioning some comments about MTH's possible future demise, didn't they just start (several years anyway) dabbling in HO? I think most of their business is on the 3-rail stuff isn't it? It kind of reminds me of what Lionel tried, HO, and then eventually retreated back to what they do best. As far as MTH 3 rail products, do they use DCS in it as well and is it different than the standard in 3 rail?
I'm only asking these questions to remind people that HO is not their bread and butter, and maybe MTH feels that they will do it their way or not at all.
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
Keep in mind reviews are only one thing MR does. It primarily does stories on layouts, techniques for doing scenery and structures, some historical background stories, etc. Model Railroad News on the other hand, that has reviews as it's primary focus, gives you much more information and does much more thorough reviews - 4-5 pages vs. say 1 page in MR. MRN can give you much more detailed information, and usually has more direct input from the reviewer..."I liked this", "I didn't like this", "I will / will not consider buying one of these products in the future" etc.
selectorIRONROOSTER ...What they don't do is make value or comparison judgments or give you buy recommendations like Consumer Reports, but then that's not the type of review that they are doing... Well, actually they do, Paul. The charts they provide in each full review provides a direct comparison between the item tested and the 'average' model for such performance parameters as tractive effort and speed at various voltage settings. -Crandell
IRONROOSTER ...What they don't do is make value or comparison judgments or give you buy recommendations like Consumer Reports, but then that's not the type of review that they are doing...
...What they don't do is make value or comparison judgments or give you buy recommendations like Consumer Reports, but then that's not the type of review that they are doing...
Well, actually they do, Paul. The charts they provide in each full review provides a direct comparison between the item tested and the 'average' model for such performance parameters as tractive effort and speed at various voltage settings.
Crandall,
Guess that must be in the print version - I don't have September yet.
The online version lists scale speed at different voltages for DC and steps for DCC and drawbar pull but no reference to other class J models or an 'average' model
Enjoy
Paul.
Sir MadogMarklin and Trix as their DC/DCC brand are still in business, but, aside from some bread and butter locos, all their releases are limited runs only. They have not issued any new US outline loco for some time. From what I have heard by Chinese whispers, Marklin/Trix are pondering to re-release the Big Boy, but with a new sound decoder.
I know, but after how many bankruptcies? or near bankruptcies? Athearn (just one example) has never been bankrupt, beter business model and more marketable product I suspect.