Lost John Allen Loco recovered

[jjbmish]

Even if this is not a real John Allen engine (very doubtful) its still good to know that people still think so much of his modeling. I first saw his layout in an old model train magazine in which he descibed how he built the original G&D Layout. After that I was hooked. He did amazing things with his layout. I have the book that Linn wrote and I'm still amazed everytime I open it. He has been a very big influence on many generations of modelers and I suspect he will continue to be so in the future.

John

[ndbprr]

I remember the issue of MR that had a black frame around a picture of the G&D in the cover announcing his death and the fire. Then the next issue had Linn Westcotts death announcement. It was a double whammy.

[IRONROOSTER]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ndbprr

I remember the issue of MR that had a black frame around a picture of the G&D in the cover announcing his death and the fire. Then the next issue had Linn Westcotts death announcement. It was a double whammy.

Uh - actually John Allen died in January 1973 and Linn Westcott in September 1980. It was the passing of an era.

Paul

[Anonymous]

Hello Again,

Sorry to drop a squirrel in the church social and leave but I had to go away for 3 weeks on business. The fellow I purchased the train from is Keith Blanchard and he owns one of John Allen’s locos, the #43 Berkshire (I’ve seen the photos). Keith’s uncle owned the hobby store in Monterey, CA?

Keith wrote to me, “I am from Monterey originaly and grew up under John's layout. There probably would not be any additional value because it was John's. I thought that prospective new owner should know the history and maybe would appreciate it a little more. I have sent an email to Andy at Model Railroader Mag just in case he wants to add this one to his Allen collection. I should have just sent it to him. I did not think of it until it was too late. John was just one of our friends and we never thought of him as a celebrity.”

Keith further stated, “20 years ago we displayed the loco (#43) at Josephine DeRandle museum in San Francisco and they insured it for $10,000. I probably couldn't sell it because it has sentimental value to me. All the other smaller things didn't mean as much. I salvaged a lot of the G&D and have sold and given most if it away over the years. #43 caries the G&D logo and is the only surviving large road engine because it was in a box on the floor. Your tank loco also was in the same situation.”

So I hope to prove I have a John Allen loco (a tiny one but one none the less). I certainly believe Keith and think I own a John Allen loco, what do the rest of you think?

[Anonymous]

I think I'll be speaking for the group --
- Everyone of us hopes you do have an engine from the G&D
- Could you post several pics of it on this Forum or link us to a site where we can admire it? Front, back, side and underneath views would be great. (The closer the subject is to the lens - as long as the pics are legible - the better) Not sure what exactly we'd be looking for, but some of the guys on this Forum have incredible background and may see "something".
- If it is deemed to be an actual engine from the G&D, most everyone of us will have to wipe the egg off of our faces, and issue you both an apology and a congrats. . .

BILL

[Anonymous]

Hello,

How can I post some photos? I have kept it in a special display case all these years in regards to it's status. I can take digital photos of it for anyone interested. I was really hoping someone would know Keith so I could find out if he is for real. I suspect he is and maybe I need to find this Andy Sperandeo fellow for further confirmation. I leave for another 3 weeks on the road but will try to answer any e-mails in a timely manner at [e-mail]; thank you in advance.

[Anonymous]

I was suggesting that you take some digital photos of it and post them on this topic string. If you need guidance as to how to post them here, please ask and someone will direct you to the topic that covers that.

We want to assist you in determining whether you have a 'John Allen original', but you aren't offering up much to go on. You should email Andy Sperandeo and perhaps he'll have some leads for you to follow. I personally think asking Forem members to comment on the integrity of, or vouch for the character and credibility of someone who sold you this engine, is a bit over the top, and perhaps you should do that in a more private fashion. Apparantly no on who has respsonded thus far knows who he is, and even if they did, what would you learn from their comments (about the person) that would establi***he validity of his claim that he sold you an authentic G & D engine. The engine, and only that engine, will establi***hat, because the chain of ownership that you have presented, is too weak for it, in itself, to substantiate any link to John Allen. At least that is my opinion.

When you're back in town and can take the time to post the pictures, I'm sure you'll find some ready, willing and able John Allen fans eager to assist you. If you aren't willing to post any pictures, I'm afraid I'll lose further interest in spending anymore time on this topic, because it isn't going anywhere.

[Anonymous]

if you have digital pictures, you can email them to me. i can upload them to my website and post them here for you.

[Anonymous]

Hello,

The suggestion has been made that I “…should email Andy Sperandeo”. Good advice except I don’t know how to reach Mr. Sperandeo. That is one of the things I was hoping this group could help me on, does anyone have an e-mail address for Mr. Sperandeo?
Thanks in advance.

[cacole]

There is a former G&D operator living here in Tombstone, Arizona. He doubts the authenticity of that locomotive.

[robengland]

Andy can be contacted at Model Railroader: [e-mail]
He works there. Actually that's putting it mildly. He's an institution there. http://www.trains.com/Content/Dynamic/Articles/000/000/003/140nrvzf.asp
He seems to read these forums

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cacole

There is a former G&D operator living here in Tombstone, Arizona. He doubts the authenticity of that locomotive.

Hello,

How can he doubt what he hasn't seen?

I sent some photos to a website that hopefully will be showing them soon. I will list the link as soon as I know. In the meanwhile let's all keep an open mind on the manner.

I was told this was a "joke" loco that John liked to leave on layouts he visited and waited for the owner to contact him about the engine. Has anyone else heard this story before? As a brass loco it seems a bit extravagant to just leave lying around, even for John Allen.
Thanks

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by robengland

Andy can be contacted at Model Railroader: [e-mail]
He works there. Actually that's putting it mildly. He's an institution there. http://www.trains.com/Content/Dynamic/Articles/000/000/003/140nrvzf.asp
He seems to read these forums

Thanks, I will write him ASAP.

[Anonymous]

I strongly suspect Andy S has been reading this thread and following it somewhat - in fact, I'd be more surprised if he hasn't been following it. If you want, you can take a digitial photo and take out an account at railimages, which is free. You can find it at www.trainboard.com Take the account out now as it will take about 24 to 48 hours for you to receive your account. Then when you have the photo of the engine, ask here or in the railimages forum for help as to how to post the pic. The pic has to be on the net before you can display it. The process is very easy to do but sounds "hard" the first time you hear it.

You can post the image here in this thread, but I"d also send a link to this thread or an attachment (some firewalls don't like attachments) of your pic and email it to Andy S.

[Anonymous]

A friend asked me to check this thread and set the facts straight, so I joined. John Allen's layout was totally destrioed by the fire. Andrew, John's brother asked the operators and friends to see what if anything could be salvaged and maybe a memorial diorama be built. Several salvage efforts were made and very little was worth the effort. Keith and I were part of the group, but did not do the salvage work, so I have no idea what still exists. We do know that engine #43 does exist. Because John Allen gave it to Earl Flaws. It did not fit into John's concept. It was a main line engine and had hard times in the tight curves. The engine was given to John by PFM for an advertisement photo session. John repainted and lettered it with some other mods.
For a short time, the G&D operators used Keith's layout for the weekly operating sessions. I was one of the regular operators on Keith's layout and was there for most sessions. On one visit, Andrew came with Earl, Allen Fenton and a few people that I can't remember their names. They gave #43 to Keith for memorial operating nights. Andrew said it was at home there because Keith's layout was very much like John Allen's, but still under construction. The minimum radious was 30 inches, so it had no problems there. This is the layout that got destroied due to relocation and the parts were sold and given away.
The engine in question is a brass Ken Kidder Teakettle engine. They sold for about $29 back then. The engine was painted by John Allen, but not used on the layout. How it may have survived, I have no idea. It may have been left at one of the operators layouts or just found in the rubble. Someone had to clean the mess up.
Keith Beard now owns and lives in John's house. Everything went to the dump to make way for a workshop. It was a real mess to clean up.
Hope this sheds light on the subject, John

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by John Robert

A friend asked me to check this thread and set the facts straight, so I joined. John Allen's layout was totally destrioed by the fire. Andrew, John's brother asked the operators and friends to see what if anything could be salvaged and maybe a memorial diorama be built. Several salvage efforts were made and very little was worth the effort. Keith and I were part of the group, but did not do the salvage work, so I have no idea what still exists. We do know that engine #43 does exist. Because John Allen gave it to Earl Flaws. It did not fit into John's concept. It was a main line engine and had hard times in the tight curves. The engine was given to John by PFM for an advertisement photo session. John repainted and lettered it with some other mods.
For a short time, the G&D operators used Keith's layout for the weekly operating sessions. I was one of the regular operators on Keith's layout and was there for most sessions. On one visit, Andrew came with Earl, Allen Fenton and a few people that I can't remember their names. They gave #43 to Keith for memorial operating nights. Andrew said it was at home there because Keith's layout was very much like John Allen's, but still under construction. The minimum radious was 30 inches, so it had no problems there. This is the layout that got destroied due to relocation and the parts were sold and given away.
The engine in question is a brass Ken Kidder Teakettle engine. They sold for about $29 back then. The engine was painted by John Allen, but not used on the layout. How it may have survived, I have no idea. It may have been left at one of the operators layouts or just found in the rubble. Someone had to clean the mess up.
Keith Beard now owns and lives in John's house. Everything went to the dump to make way for a workshop. It was a real mess to clean up.
Hope this sheds light on the subject, John

That's the engine! This is the exact story of my engine as related by Keith. He found it under the benchwork during the cleanup. The photos should be posted on line soon and I will list the link as soon as it is available. Please review the photos and see if it is the loco mentioned above. Thanks! This is getting closer every day now.

[Anonymous]

sorry for the delay, but here are the long awaited pictures[:D]

[CNJ831]

Nice little Ken Kidder plantation loco...my son has three just like it! Seriously, I'd really like to be more positive in this response but lacking even a G&D herald, as far as I can see from the photos, I'd say JohnAllenFan has his work cut out for him establishing provenance. If it indeed lacks any distinguishing markings to associate it with John Allen I'm afraid that suddenly resurfacing after 30+ years of total obscurity makes the hearsay story of this locomotive's origin accepectable to only the naive. With such a common (many hundreds were sold) and undistinguished an 0-4-0 locomotive, at an absolute minimum it will be necessary to obtain written documentation from the original seller as to how, why and when he came by it, as well as similar letters from at least a couple of G&D operators who specifically recall the engine, to in any way establish its origins and make it believable for most longtime hobbyists. Short of this, I'm afraid it must simply remain a curiosity.

CNJ831

[fiatfan]

I have nothing to contribute to the original thread but that is the same as my very first locomotive. Thanks for sharing the photos and bringing back the memories.

Tom

[Anonymous]

This is not the loco I remember seeing passed around by the operators. It had the G&D logo and a much redder and rusty paint job. It also had pickup shoes added. John added pickup shoes to almost everything. Keith did have one sitting in his roundhouse junkyard way before John passed away. I suspect what Keith meant was that it was found under his workbench during layout removal. But John did paint many locos for friends. He used pactra paints made for plastic and artist paints. By the photos, it looks like Floquil weathered black.
John

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CNJ831

Nice little Ken Kidder plantation loco...my son has three just like it! Seriously, I'd really like to be more positive in this response but lacking even a G&D herald, as far as I can see from the photos, I'd say JohnAllenFan has his work cut out for him establishing provenance. If it indeed lacks any distinguishing markings to associate it with John Allen I'm afraid that suddenly resurfacing after 30+ years of total obscurity makes the hearsay story of this locomotive's origin accepectable to only the naive. With such a common (many hundreds were sold) and undistinguished an 0-4-0 locomotive, at an absolute minimum it will be necessary to obtain written documentation from the original seller as to how, why and when he came by it, as well as similar letters from at least a couple of G&D operators who specifically recall the engine, to in any way establish its origins and make it believable for most longtime hobbyists. Short of this, I'm afraid it must simply remain a curiosity.

CNJ831

My first, and probably last, exposure to this forum and I must say that I have never meet a more interesting group of people before. As to the written proof from the seller, I do have that. My mission here was only to find out information about the seller. If one assumes the seller is telling the truth than this engine was painted by John Allen and intended as a joke engine, I never said it was a serious runner on the G&D.

What help I expected to find here came from a few, the jeers and slanders I guess go with the territory since I am unknown too. I have my own personal history and successes to comfort me and I will continue to press my case but in a different method.

Hopefully the fellow from Model Railroad will eventually answer my e-mails and some more sophisticated method of proving my claim can progress, until then thanks to all who tried to help. Enjoy the photos because you are getting the first look at another John Allen Loco!

[Anonymous]

Why do you want to prove this to be a Allen loco? Do you want to sell it? How did you aquire it? The best I can tell you about Keith Blanchard is that he was a bit of a joker. I have not seen him in over 11 years, when he move to the LA area and I to Salt Lake City. I heard that he passed away from cancer, but not sure when. If he was still around, he would be about 74 years old. He and I are about the same age.
John

[Anonymous]

A very nice looking little engine and the paintwork does resemble John Allens work but it's impossible to verify if it it indeed is an authentic John Allen engine or not.

Andy Sperandeo can be contacted through MR as he is on their editorial staff.
Keith Blanchard runs Pine Canyon Scale Models http://www.pinecanyonscalemodels.com
Keith was active on the GandD Yahoo group mentioned earlier but left after getting into disspute with the Allen estate regarding items salvaged from John's house after the fire. Standpoint of the Allen estate was that the items were taken from the house without permission and should therefore be donated to NMRA's Howell Day museum.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by John Robert

Why do you want to prove this to be a Allen loco? Do you want to sell it? How did you aquire it? The best I can tell you about Keith Blanchard is that he was a bit of a joker. I have not seen him in over 11 years, when he move to the LA area and I to Salt Lake City. I heard that he passed away from cancer, but not sure when. If he was still around, he would be about 74 years old. He and I are about the same age.
John

The reason I want to prove it is a John Allen engine is the same reason you would want to, it would be a John Allen loco. That's reason enough for me! To be able to say you have one of the few known John Allen engines in existence is a great thrill for a collector.

No, I do NOT intend to sell it. I have owned it for about 5 years now (I purchased it from Keith) and have been displaying it as a John Allen engine. I want to prove it to silence the skeptics.

As to Keith being a joker, I believed his story then and I believe it now. My goal is not to convince myself what the engine is but to prove it to the world. I have been a John Allen fan for 20+ years now and what to make this engine available to the NMRA when I pass on.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by okrasaghia

A very nice looking little engine and the paintwork does resemble John Allens work but it's impossible to verify if it it indeed is an authentic John Allen engine or not.

Andy Sperandeo can be contacted through MR as he is on their editorial staff.
Keith Blanchard runs Pine Canyon Scale Models http://www.pinecanyonscalemodels.com
Keith was active on the GandD Yahoo group mentioned earlier but left after getting into disspute with the Allen estate regarding items salvaged from John's house after the fire. Standpoint of the Allen estate was that the items were taken from the house without permission and should therefore be donated to NMRA's Howell Day museum.

How can I contact the John Allen Estate group? If this was from the disputed materials (that may explian why Keith sold it to me) I would like to get this engine to the NMRA when I pass on (hopefully in the distant future).

[Anonymous]

hey John Allen Fan -

A lot of fine folks attempted to assist you in your efforts to prove the claim made by a seller to you that the subject engine was a long-lost G & D engine. Not just because they would be intrigued by its very existence, but because they also enjoy helping other model railroaders.

Since there is only vague evidence at best, that it could have ever belonged to John Allen, and that you are questioning the validity of what the seller told you, the respondants on this topic have done their level best, and there has been precious little to go on, and until two days ago, nothing to look at. And, apparantly there isn't any documentation - letters, early photos of it on the G & D or with John Allen in the presence of the engine, or any reference to its existence on a G & D roster, that substantiates its true origin.

As I stated in an earlier post, and in a subsequent reply to an email from you (because you took issue with my recommendation to post some pictures, and you debated my statement that I believe that a public forum is not the 'place to discuss the character, integrity, or reliability of a fellow modeler' - deceased or not ), it is still apparent that you are more interested in what was Keith all about, than the 'history' of the little tank engine.

Nobody 'jeered' you, and I'm not sure what "slanders" has any reference to. . .In order to prove something, especially if to establi***he authenticity of a potentially valuable, and even historically significant article, you have to attempt to 'disprove' it also, like peeling away at the layers of an onion to get to the underlying truth. That is all that anybody was doing as they offered what they knew or made suggestions to you, inspite of the fact that your mission was, at best, unclear from the start. And apparantly still is. . .

What are you trying to accompolish? Are you trying to afix a "value" to this engine by establishing its pedigree as a G&D engine? Did you pay too much for it because you believed that it was a G & D piece, and are attempting to recover something from somebody? ( probably not ) Are you trying to sell it on eBay and want to justify an outlandish price? Or. do you just want bragging rights? I hope it is the latter. Although, if it could be established that it is an actual G & D engine - that was owned by John Allen (and therefore his estate) - its rightful home is in the NMRA's museum, along with the other John Allen / G & D items donated by the Allen family.

Personally, the engine doesn't appear to be a typical G & D engine because it lacks any of John's usual and unique detailing. Even if John may possibly have used this engine (if it were established that he did, in fact, own it), perhaps only when operating his Timesaver (switching module) while 'on the road', surely he would have added pick-up shoes to an 0-4-0. However, I believe that John Robert has offered the most plausible explanation of how this engine may have been associated with John Allen, as did CNJ 831sum it up by stating that without a better paper trail or testimonials, it shall "remain a curiosity".

We all tried to help you, and now you're threatening to leave because you didn't get the answer you wanted. C'est la vie.

[Anonymous]

Illegally removed??? That is impossible. I saw the stuff that was recovered. The operators had it in boxes stored at ones house to see if any could be saved. It was the operators that removed the stuff per Andrews permission. I was there along with many others. Nothing was still in paint or worth saving. Everything was chared and blackened. A few years later, the guys turned up with #43 at our operating session. Keith was a long time friend of Allen's and I suspect that he painted a few locos for him. I am pleasantley surprised to hear he is still around. But why his he a target for crazies after so many years?
John

[Anonymous]

Hello Everyone,

For better or worse, this forum has accomplished a couple of things. It did get me in touch with Keith again (he just wrote me) and he offered some further explanation on the engine.

With great thanks to Keith the following;
“I was one of John Allen's friends for many years. There was a salvage effort done with Andrew Allen's permission. In fact, he asked us to do what we could to save anything. I myself did not go on the salvage trips. Two or three of the operators did that. I do not know what became of the many boxes of salvage. I suspect it's in the hands of one of the operators. Your little engine was painted by John during a clinic he gave at my house. I guess this makes it a Allen engine, but not technically. I located it while we were in the process of moving.”

So there you have it, an engine painted by John Allen but not necessarily owned by him. It was never on the G&D (something I never claimed either). That fact that John Allen painted it during a clinic makes it more like the sketches of Da Vinci and not the Mona Lisa; I can live with that. I think my bragging rights are securely established. Keith doesn’t want to post on this forum and I respect that.

Obviously if he did you would all get a chance to question him and prove to yourselves the validity of his statements but I think we have moved beyond that point now. Maybe some day MR will answer my letters and run a photo of the little engine with an accompanying caption, that’s all I am looking for.

This engine doesn’t belong in a museum, but it sure looks sweet on my mantle! Thanks to Alex for helping me out and posting the photos. Thanks to all the positive people who truly wanted to help; the others help us understand the “lone wolf” mentality developing in the hobby.

Special Thanks to Keith for selling me the loco in the first place and then taking the time to further write and help explain the pedigree of the engine. This has all been a nice diversion and a great rehash of some old history.

[Anonymous]

Well then, sounds like you got yourself a genuin Keith Blanchard engine possibly painted by John Allen.
Would not compare that with a sketch by Da Vinci, neither is John Allen on par with the great painters of past nor is a painting excersice equal to a sketch.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by okrasaghia

Well then, sounds like you got yourself a genuin Keith Blanchard engine possibly painted by John Allen.
Would not compare that with a sketch by Da Vinci, neither is John Allen on par with the great painters of past nor is a painting excersice equal to a sketch.

Sounds like sour grapes to me? Most of you would not believe some of the personal replies I have received over this subject. Again, I can understand why the "Lone Wolf" mentality is growing in our hobby because of the pettiness and selfishness demonstrated by some of those e-mails.

My Grandfather used to tell me, "the thief sees the world as full of thieves, the honest man sees the world as full of honest men." As a Shriner and Mason I insist that the world is full of honest men. I couldn't live any other way (nor would I want to).

To every person who wrote me accusing me of trying to make money out of this please understand, I was doing this to gain knowledge and prove to myself, and my train friends, that this engine came from John Allen's hand. To some of us this is very special. If my good fortune makes you jealous, envious, or otherwise upset that someone could have such a find, well then I guess you need to work that out for yourself; don't take it out on me.

Please do not reply to this final message as few of you have anything constructive to add. For all of you who did send encouragement or truly constructive input, my profound thanks. Your help was instrumental in reaching the original source and getting closure to this search.

In a side note; I never did hear from Mr. Andy Sperandeo, maybe he didn’t want another John Allen pedigree loco found to dilute the value of his own version? I have no way of knowing since he never replied to my inquiry. Be that as it may, I have enjoyed most of this and wish you all good luck and happy modeling in the future.