Lost John Allen Loco recovered

[Anonymous]

Hello,

Can anyone help me? I have a locomotive I purchased a few years ago that the seller claims was given to him by John Allen. Normally I would say this is a joke but he provided information that bolsters his claim, also he sold me the loco (0-4-0T ) before he mentioned the John Allen link. Does anyone know of a way to prove this loco came from John Allen? Does anyone know of a list of his locos? The seller claimed he was in the group that salvaged the layout after the fire and he retrieved this little engine in a cardboard box from under the benchwork. He also claims a Mr. Andy Sperandeo knows him and could help substatiate the claim. Any and all help greatly appreciated!

[Anonymous]

Dear JohnAllenfan,

All the info I have is third hand. I have to say the legend of John Allen looms large.

I met the late Allan Fenton at the 2000 NMRA Convention in San Jose. He was a regular operator on G&D. I would suggest talking with him but he passed away a couple of years ago. I believe there are several others who were in that group who are still with us. I bet Andy knows who they are. Andy Sperando was an operator there for a year or two.

There was also a gentleman who did a clinic on the G&D at the 2000 convention. Look in the old convention intinerary to find his name. He was an operator there as well.

On the claim of salvaged G&D locos: The guy at the clinic had photos of the basement taken after the fire. I looked at them. The basement and the layout appeared to be burned beyond reconition. It is possible stuff might have survived, but looking at the photos it seems very unlikely that very much of it did. I think there is a part of in all of us John Allen fans that wants it to be true that stuff survived. There is also some discussion of the topic in Linn Wescott's book on G&D.

Maybe there are some on the forum with more info.

Guy

[IRONROOSTER]

If you have access to some old MR's from the late 40's through 72, you can find several several pictures of John Allen's layouts. Also, the book Guy mentions above has many pictures. You might be able to find your loco in one - if indeed it came from JA. Over the years there have been some cars and maybe some locos produced with G&D markings. NMRA's Heritage line of frieght cars started with a G&D boxcar in all the popular scales. I have the S scale one running on my layout.
Enjoy
Paul

[CNJ831]

One has to be very careful today regarding fakes, no matter how honestly they seem to be presented by a seller. There is considerable fakery of "rare" items in the Lionel collector's market and there are probably those in HO who are not above it either. Let's face it, an undiscovered, authentic, G&D engine would be worth a lot of money to collectors!

As for finding a photo of such a locomotive in print and citing it as documentation of a particular item's authenticity, I certainly wouldn't take that as real proof. I assure you that with just a little effort and my ALPS printer I could fake any of the simpler G&D locomotives (i.e. an 0-4-0 switcher) right down to aging it and matching herald decals, given a reference photo to work from. While John extensively modified his larger locomotives to make them unique, I seem to recall that many of his switchers were more or less "out-of-the-box" save for the herald.

My advice is to seriously question this engine's authenticity.

CNJ831

[CNJ831]

As I should have indicated in my previous post, your most promising path to perhaps defining any authenticity to the locomotive in your hands is indeed to contact Andy S. and see if he can shed some definite light on both the gentleman (seller) in question and this locomotive in particular. The next necessary step would be to obtain clear written authentication (with an explanation why this engine didn't come to light much earlier) from both these individuals or very few guys are going to accept the claim.

As I recall, for a long time only one G&D road locomotive was known to have survived (that one was in the Kalmbach offices at the time of the fire I think). Recently I heard another had surfaced in private hands and it did seem to have a reasonable provenance. However, with more than thirty years elapsed since the fire it's getting highly unlikely that further examples will surface. Good luck with any search you attempt.

CNJ831

[Anonymous]

There's only one surviving G&D locomotive that I'm aware of, 4-10-0 no. 34 that's sitting in a case in Andy's office.

John had two 0-4-0Ts. The first was a Varney Dockside, and it figured prominently in his early photos. John also had an 0-4-0T built by Sakura, an early Japanese brass manufacturer. It's possible that this latter model survived the fire. Is it made of brass, or does it have 'Sakura' somewhere on it? It would be numbered "10" on the G&D.

[Jetrock]

The only other possibility would be the "missing" DG&H locomotive, stolen from the G&D by a visitor sometime in the fifties--it was an HOn3 0-4-0T--I think it resembled a Porter tank engine. That locomotive might still be floating around out there somewhere...

[Anonymous]

A 4-10-0? That is probably the biggest on the Railroad. I do not recall any pictures. Would it be ok to ask Mr. Andy to provide a photo? I am curious to see this survivor.

I recall that the fire was pretty destructive from most accounts. I recommend being very careful and try to have the surviving members of John Allen's Operating Group attempt to identify the locomotive in question. Perhaps as a group they can agree or reject this engine as a "Genuine Article"

I have loved John Allen's work in books and MR. But I must doubt the truth of the seller's alledged story of retriving the model from under the bench work. Fire has a tendancy to gather along undersides of structures like tables, roofs, and ceilings before attacking upwards. The heat involved must have been hellish in that room.

[CNJ831]

Not only must the temperature in the layout room have reached quite a high level (of course, it would have been somewhat cooler at floor level under the layout) but a portion of the building's first floor collapse into the layout room, John having removed some of the joist supports for the first floor to make way for the layout! I do note that the fire did not actually consume the house as it was restored and sold (it still exists to this day) after the fire.

Incidentally, a picture of the surviving G & D 4-10-0 appeared in MR just a few years back in the News section of the magazine. Likewise, it was shown in an early installment of the video series Tracks Ahead, in a segment devoted to John and the G&D. Like John's other big road engines, it was uniquely modified and super detailed.

CNJ831

[Anonymous]

There is a Yahoo group for the G&D. They have photos of a few surviving G&D pieces, including a 2-8-4 #43 http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/GandD/vwp?.dir=/Berkshire+43&.src=gr&.dnm=Original+G%26D+Berkshire+%2343+-+6.jpg&.view=t&.done=http%3a//photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/GandD/lst%3f%26.dir=/Berkshire%2b43%26.src=gr%26.view=t

[Anonymous]

I get an error message with the G&D link to yahoo.

[newhavenguy]

Me Too. Do you have to join first?

[Anonymous]

My guess is you would have to. If you like the G&D you will enjoy this group, there are lots of old articles and other things. I would copy and post the photo but I'm not sure if that is allowed.

[Anonymous]

Regarding the Sakura 0-4-0T. Until a few years ago I had a Sakura Dockside, which was virtually identical to the Varney B&O Dockside, being diecast, but having a few lost-wax details (air pump, etc.), handrails and full valve gear. I bought this new in the early 70's, I believe. I'm sorry now that I sold it!

[Anonymous]

In the late Linn Wescott's wonderful book on the G & D he made mention on page 142 of salvaging some items from John Allen's house a year after the fire. Linn said in his book that they "tried to save the famous French Gulch section, but after two hours of sawing and sweating it collapsed as (they) moved it away from the wall". He also said that the fire had completely demolished many areas of the railroad, and a few scenes were recognizable but badly charred.

Linn located John's negatives in the darkroom, "and upstairs were his correspondence files, drawings, and planning notebooks, including the manuscripts of published and future articles." Linn further added that "John's color slides (which had been rescued earlier and were the property of Andrew Allen)" made it possible to produce his book about the G & D. (note-Andrew Allen was John's brother) Almost the entire book was illustrated with John Allen's photos and drawings.

So it is entirely possible that an engine, especially of metal construction, could have survived a fire. John could have had train stuff scattered all over his house. What if that engine had been upstairs, and not under his benchwork? (Don't know about the rest of you, but I typically have modelng stuff in just about every room. . .) Perhaps some member of his large operating group may be a link to the origin of your engine. Not sure how many may still be with us since the fire occured 31 years ago: if you need a list of those individuals, post your request here and I'll reference G & D book for their names.

And another thought -- John did the photography for the Varney ads that were on the back cover of MR from 1952-1959. There is a picture of a Varney's Aerotrain and 0-4-0T Dockside taken on the G & D and reproduced on page 68 of the G & D book. Varney sold thousands of these during the fifties and later. Couldn't John have had more than one in his stash? Varney could have produced copies of it to tie into their ad campaign, promoting their association w/ John Allen, who was credited w/ the photo and modeling in every Varney ad ?

FYI - The G & D had larger engines than the 4-10-0 ( kitbashed from a Varney Reading 2-8-0 boiler, Mantua 50" drivers, Varney Casey Jones cylinders, and a scratchbuilt tender). The G & D rostered an 0-6-6-0, four 2-6-6-2 and a 2-10-2 .

Hopefully you have acquired a piece of model railroading history. John Allen was perhaps the most influential icon in our hobby. If you learn anything else that substantiates that this engine is, in fact, one of John Allen's, please inform us on this topic string.

and there's more FYI --- about 15 or so years ago, MDC Roundhouse offered quite a few pieces of HO rolling stock and one or two steam engines lettered for the G & D, as well as John's narrow gauge branch, The Devil's Gulch & Helengon, although MDC's models of it were in standard gauge, and not narrow gauge.

BILL

[CNJ831]

Bill - I'll agree that all of your proposals are at least marginally possible but most fly in the face of the fact that this supposed G&D engine remained totally unknown and undocumented for three decades. And then when it does surface it is sold, apparently quite cheaply (considering its astronomical collector's value), to some apparently unknown individual rather than finding its way into something like the NMRA museum, MR's HQ, or the collection of one of today's well known modelers. Likewise, how does one make sense of the original poster's statement that only _after_ the sale it was related that this engine happened to be from the singularly most famous layout in model railroading history? Things just don't seem to add up for me.

Original poster, could we not see a photo of this engine? It could well answer a lot of questions straight away.

CNJ831

[Anonymous]

I'm the one posting the pictures of 2-8-4 #43 to the G&D Yahoo group (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GandD/).
I have no relation to the person taking the pictures though only did it to help him out and show the pictures to the group.
If you are a John Allen fan I hope to see you in the group as we have many intersting things to show and discuss
including some pictures of salvaged (damaged) rolling stock from the G&D (same source as the #43 pictures).

Rgearding the engine in the original question, why don't you show us a picture of it?
I actually e-mailed Andy Sperandeo a year ago asking about engine #10 mentioned in the book and as Andy recalled it was
a Dockside also thus there were two Dockside engines on the G&D if he recalls correctly (#9 & #10).

4-10-0 #34 is on many pictures in the book if you have it, seems like it was a favourite of Johns.
Regarding other G&D engines according to the book there was three 2-6-6-2s (not four) numbered 36, 37 & 38.
Number 35 was a 0-6-6-0 (converted from a PFM Sierra 2-6-6-2).
The book mentions a possible 2-10-2 as number 43 but the the above mentioned pictures shows an ATSF Berkshire (2-8-4).

DG&H #1 which was stolen I think the book states as an 0-6-0T and that it was not finished when stolen.

[Anonymous]

Can you take a digital photo of your locomotive and post it on forums?

[Anonymous]

I would be very skeptical about this to say the least. I mean, this is like going out and buying a guitar that was once owned by Elvis. It would now be worth millions. I would think the same thing would hold true with any locomotives that was once owned by John Allen. Hey, ask yourself this. If you had something that was from his railroad collection, and could prove it, what would you sell it for? I read somewhere that talked about the houses that Norm Abram remodeled before he became a television star. They say that now those same houses are worth thousands up and beyond the normal real estate prices all because he was the one that did the remodeling. Let's face it, John Allen was the Elvis of model railroading. Any model railroading equipment that he owned, one could ask almost any price for and get it.. Either the guy you bought it from is lying, or he was totally ignorant of the value of such an item. Which do you think it would most likely be? If it is real, then you got yourself the deal of a lifetime.

Georgia Boy

[Anonymous]

Johnallenfan,

Given the attention this post generated on this forum and on the Atlas forum (two pages worth discussing this post), I am curious what are your thoughts on the authenticity of your loco??? I'm sure others are interested as well.

Guy

[Roadtrp]

Hmmm....

A guy comes to the board and for his very first post relates a story making a rather outlandish claim. Then he seems to disappear and never follows up the discussion. I did a search on his name, and he has not made one other post on any of the Trains.com boards since this first post two weeks ago.

Does anyone besides me smell troll? [:-,]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Roadtrp

Hmmm....

A guy comes to the board and for his very first post relates a story making a rather outlandish claim. Then he seems to disappear and never follows up the discussion. I did a search on his name, and he has not made one other post on any of the Trains.com boards since this first post two weeks ago.

Does anyone besides me smell troll? [:-,]

Yeah, sounds like one

[Anonymous]

hey okrasaghis-

You're correct, the G&D had three 2-6-6-2 and a 0-6-6-0 (converted from a 2-6-6-2). That's what I meant to write but it was in the wee hours when I posted it. Considering the nature of this post and the need to be as accurate as possible when discussing anything of John Allens G&D that may have survived (the original topic) I apologize if I made an unclear statement..

Like most everyone has expressed, either this 'one-poster' was just fishing for a sucker, or realized he got suckered by the seller. We'd all be thrilled to learn that something as historically significant as this mystery engine had survived the fire. I do agree if something smells like a rat, it's probably a rat.

I bet that John Allen, (who, according to Linn Wescott, was quite the practical joker), wherever he may be, is laughing his tail off at all the fuss his life long fans still make over him and his railroad, and all the admiration we hold for him because he inspired so many.

BILL

[Anonymous]

Well, if he WAS a troll, he started a nice discussion about the whereabouts of any surviving G&D locomotives, as well as some details on the roster.

I guess, as trolls go, this one did a pretty good job!

Rob

[Anonymous]

I agree wholeheartedly - forced me to locate my copy of Linn Wescott's book on the G&D and to reread it for the umpteenth time. Then I dragged out a bunch of MR issues from the mid '50s and looked at the old Varney ads done by John Allen. I found a couple of old articles in those mags very relevant to the new layout I'm planning, which prompted me to look something up on the net, and one link led to another, and so on and so on. Thanks 'Mr.Troll' - it was a worthwhile journey !

BILL

[vsmith]

Sounds like JohnAllenFan realized he got dupped into buying a Varney engine with G&D lettering that had been added after the fact. Like the old addage goes,

"If it sounds too good to be true..."

Just wanted to add, even if it isnt a Allen original, if it still is a Varney engine, its still something always good to have for a collector, just hope he didnt ended paying too much for the Allen provenance...

...or find a Tyco stamp on the bottom of it!

[Anonymous]

I have been following this thread with interest for some time, as I too am somewhat of a fan of John Allen. Like the add for a recent elvis complilation CD goes, Before anyone did anything, John Allen did everything. It is obvious the topic of the fire is a central item of discussion in any G&D discussion. However one thing I have never heard of, is what started the fire that destroyed the layout. Its like hearing about the Space Shuttle Challenger blowing up during launch and never hearing why.

Thanks to those who know in advance.

[Anonymous]

According to Linn Westcott, the fire was initially blamed on the G & D's wiring, but a "private fire investigator commissioned by Andrew Allen (John's brother) later determined that a faulty gas floor furnace in ther Helengon Gap alcove (on the G & D) was the culprit" . Apparantly John seldom used the furnace, and Linn Wescott asserted that John probably knew the furnace wasn't properly vented to the outside.

Ten days after John passed away, a group of regular G & D operators were invited by Andrew Allen to visit and operate the G & D. When the operating session was over that evening around 11PM, and since the house was vacant, the crew shut down all the power to the G & D layout and lighting, turned off the gas water heater and adjusted that floor furnace's thermostat to 65 degrees to keep the humidity in check. About an hour after the crew left, or around midnite, a neighbor called the Monterey Fire Dept. reporting smoke and sparks coming from John's house. Even though the fire dept. responded quickly, a portion of the house-the basement-was almost completely consumed, along with the G & D, except as noted elsewhere in this topic string.

The house was later repaired and resold. Don't know the status of it now, however.

[Anonymous]

Thanks Bill.

James

[Anonymous]

Guys,

The house is still there and is occupied. One of my train friends drove by it recently just for nostalgia's sake.

It was my understanding that the heater was actually part of the layout and that John never used it because he knew it would cause provblems. I also believe he used a glue and paper mixture for his hard shell which would account for the rapid spread of the fire and thorough destruction of the layout and surrounding space.

Guy