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"Collector" vs. "Model Railroader"

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Posted by blownout cylinder on Monday, July 6, 2009 9:21 PM

A collector runs a lot of the time on raw esthetics. Looks are more important than whether it ran as a Chessie, or a PRR, and whether it operated until 1955. Or was it retired 1952.

 In antiques it pretty much runs the gammut for that approach and in some ways it works a lot better in decorating your house.Smile In MRR-----not so muchDead

 

Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry

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Posted by Silver Pilot on Monday, July 6, 2009 9:10 PM

No, I am awaree that there was such a engine.  I saw it when it ran.  But you also prove my point.  IHC made/makes a 4-6-2 in Chessie paint.  A collector of Chessie stuff would buy it because its Chessie; a model railroader wouldn't because its not a 4-8-4, which is what 2101 was.  To me, the first is a collector, the second a MRR.

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Posted by NeO6874 on Monday, July 6, 2009 8:21 PM

 thanks a lot guys....

 was wondering what distinctions people used to define others...especially since it seems there's a similar distaste toward the "collector" as there is the "rivet counter" (though both are apparently in good humour ... at least to a point)...

-Dan

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Posted by markpierce on Monday, July 6, 2009 8:04 PM

I don't care whether you are one or the other, as long as you're having fun with the idea of railroads.

Mark

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Posted by wjstix on Monday, July 6, 2009 7:38 PM

I would say a modeller is interested in a model as a representation of a real engine, often to be used on a layout that tries to put the engine in a realistic context. A collector is more interested in the model itself, and therefore may not be as concerned that it's not prototypical. Many collectors have layouts to run their models on, but their main goal is showing off and enjoying the models, not recreating a slice of real life.

The line might be more blurry than in the past. Once upon a time, say 20-30 years ago, brass engines were often poor runners. They were available in unpainted brass only, and were hard to disassemble and paint. Many guys who enjoyed accurate steam models bought them only to have them sit on a shelf and be admired like works of art. It wasn't until recent years that brass engines included accurate, beautiful paint and lettering, with smooth running mechanisms (now often including DCC and sound).  

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Posted by wm3798 on Monday, July 6, 2009 7:28 PM

Silver Pilot

...  For example, a collector wants that Chessie System painted steam engine because one was made, a Chessie System MRR is more likely to avoid it because its unprototypical and doesn't fit his modeling.

 

 

Um... you must have forgotten about this...

The Chessie Steam Special was indeed prototypical, and was one of the most popular steam excursion trains of the mid 1970's.

Better check your reference materials...

Lee

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Posted by CAZEPHYR on Monday, July 6, 2009 7:15 PM

twhite

I'm a Collector.  I haunt train shows and consignment sections of large model railroad shops in order to 'collect' the particular steam locomotives representing the two railroads that I model.  Then when I get them--99% brass BECAUSE of the two railroads that I model--I tinker with the mechanisms to get them running right, paint them, and put them on the tracks and use my 'collection' to do what it's supposed to do.  Haul trains. 

So yes, I 'collect'.  But they're RUNNING, not sitting around in a glass case as if they were some kind of Medieval Relic to be worshipped by the Faithful, LOL!

Tom Smile

 

 

Tom 

Your collection gets used by running on your layout.  The term collector to me means someone that purchases the rare models and stores them for some future day.  They look at them in some case, but I have purchased some recently from the 1990 era that look as if they have never been unwrapped or certainly run on any track.  Some have never had the pilot mounted or other options that were shipped with the model so I believe they have never been run.   

Like you, I purchase brass models that are rare at least to me and look for bargains and other items that I want.  I recently purchased one of the Hallmark Super Crown 2903 Santa Fe model.  It is as fine as any thing built today and was built by Samhongsa.  It is truly a great model and I did not have one of those so I now own it.   I managed to get one of the Santa Fe Global Outlet 5013 models before they went out of business.   I will probably never run either of the Santa Fe models but I am looking for one of the Hudson's that Glacier Park made a few years ago. 

I still am waiting for the Sunset Z6's since they are going to be priced right.   No news on those yet. 

CZ


 

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Posted by tatans on Monday, July 6, 2009 6:53 PM

Make sure you see on this forum page "Should you upgrade an old brass loco" some rather surprising statements as to the above subject.

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Posted by CNJ831 on Monday, July 6, 2009 6:53 PM

BRAKIE

CNJ831

Honestly, Dan, they are two totally different pursuits. One deals with obtaining similar items only for the purpose of having a collection to admire. It involves nothing beyond the aspect of acquiring. The other is a highly involved, multi-disciplined, pursuit in which acquiring specific items of a certain kind is only one small aspect of the whole. Is collecting baseball cards the same as play baseball? Wink

CNJ831 

 

Then there those oddballs like me that collects certain types of freight cars..I collect IPD short line boxcars,another may collect billboard beer reefers,another covered hoppers etc and use 'em in our operations.

So,to my mind there are operating collectors and those who just collect.

Right...and at least you are using the darn things on the layout.

At the opposite extreme we have fellows like an old friend of mine from the left coast. He showed me his "collection" during one of my visits. A whole wall in his large garage was shelves filled with boxes. They were all unbuilt kits, examples of every wood & cardstock freight car kit Varney had ever produced! Shock

CNJ831

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Posted by blownout cylinder on Monday, July 6, 2009 6:40 PM

twhite

I'm a Collector.  I haunt train shows and consignment sections of large model railroad shops in order to 'collect' the particular steam locomotives representing the two railroads that I model.  Then when I get them--99% brass BECAUSE of the two railroads that I model--I tinker with the mechanisms to get them running right, paint them, and put them on the tracks and use my 'collection' to do what it's supposed to do.  Haul trains. 

So yes, I 'collect'.  But they're RUNNING, not sitting around in a glass case as if they were some kind of Medieval Relic to be worshipped by the Faithful, LOL!

Tom Smile

I would not call that 'Collecting'!! Laugh That is "Hunting and Gathering" in the old sense. In order for you to get the pieces you need you have to haunt those areas of the dang train shows!!MischiefTongue

There are people who, upon buying their lokies, will stick them into a cabinet forever to just be gazed at like some people gaze at their trophies----whole n'other beastie----Whistling A collector is doing that for one purpose-------to COLLECT them.... nothing added---

Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry

I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...

http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/

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Posted by Santa Fe buff on Monday, July 6, 2009 6:21 PM

I am a Collector and Model Rail Roader.

I collect Rail Road items and run my Trains so for me it is tow things I like to do.

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Posted by BRAKIE on Monday, July 6, 2009 3:01 PM

CNJ831

Honestly, Dan, they are two totally different pursuits. One deals with obtaining similar items only for the purpose of having a collection to admire. It involves nothing beyond the aspect of acquiring. The other is a highly involved, multi-disciplined, pursuit in which acquiring specific items of a certain kind is only one small aspect of the whole. Is collecting baseball cards the same as play baseball? Wink

CNJ831 

 

Then there those oddballs like me that collects certain types of freight cars..I collect IPD short line boxcars,another may collect billboard beer reefers,another covered hoppers etc and use 'em in our operations.

So,to my mind there are operating collectors and those who just collect.

As far as model railroaders..There seems to be more of a fine line between a "serious" or "causual" modeler with guys like me thrown in the heap that is well discipline as far as eras but,are far from "serious".

 

I suppose the best term(if we really need one) for all would be "Model Railroader" regardless of the way one wishes to pursue the hobby.

But,let's have fun and split into group..

I suppose we could end up with:

Advanced Modelers.

 Intermediate modeler.

Casuals.

Still in the end we are still Model Railroaders.

 

Larry

Conductor.

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Posted by IRONROOSTER on Monday, July 6, 2009 12:25 PM

There's Collectors (big C) and collectors (little c). 

For the first group the Collection is the end result.  They may specialize by type such as brass, by scale such as N, by road such N&W, by brand such as Lionel.  I once shared a cubicle at work with a guy who collected N scale - N&W was his favorite but he collected all N.  He had just enough sectional track to run the locomotive in a circle on his dining room table.  The collection was the goal.

I'm in the second group, I'm collecting for that big layout I'm going to build in retirement.  Everything I have, I plan to use eventually.  I admit I'll need a loooong retirement to build and use it all, but I am comfortable with that.

I suppose there are model railroaders who are not collectors, who only have what can be used right now on the layout, who sell off the excess.  But I have never met one. 

Personally, I love Collectors and collectors, the more people buying, the more manufacturer's are encouraged to make.  If everyone limited themselves to just what they can use now, the hobby would be a shadow of what it currently is. 

Besides having lots of goodies to build, to run, etc. is part of the fun - at least for me.  Heck I've got stuff in 5 scales and I've got my eye on Z.

Enjoy

Paul

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Posted by Silver Pilot on Monday, July 6, 2009 11:10 AM

There is a significant difference between a "collector" and a "model railroader."  A collector wants to have 1 (or more) of every item of whatever they are collecting.  We've probably all seen the guy at the model train show roaming each table with a small notepad that has a list of his 'collection' and what he's missing, by item number.  I've seen it with Athearn cars, brass  or Lionel; you see it with Hot Wheels, Matchbox, baseball cards and model car kits too.  They don't want to operate, build or 'play' with the items, they want it to complete the set; to be able to have one of everything produced in a category.  They go so far as to avoid purchasing more than 1 of an item, hence the list.

A "model railroader" is more interested in acquiring, not for the sake of having the item, but because they have a use for the item.  It will be used, may be stripped, painted, weathered, but it will eventually see operating time.  The degree of accuracy typically comes into play.  For example, a collector wants that Chessie System painted steam engine because one was made, a Chessie System MRR is more likely to avoid it because its unprototypical and doesn't fit his modeling.

Is there room for some overlap between the two groups - Sure, but there is difference and some people clearly fall in one category or the other.

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Posted by twhite on Monday, July 6, 2009 9:54 AM

I'm a Collector.  I haunt train shows and consignment sections of large model railroad shops in order to 'collect' the particular steam locomotives representing the two railroads that I model.  Then when I get them--99% brass BECAUSE of the two railroads that I model--I tinker with the mechanisms to get them running right, paint them, and put them on the tracks and use my 'collection' to do what it's supposed to do.  Haul trains. 

So yes, I 'collect'.  But they're RUNNING, not sitting around in a glass case as if they were some kind of Medieval Relic to be worshipped by the Faithful, LOL!

Tom Smile

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Posted by NeO6874 on Monday, July 6, 2009 9:21 AM
well, nice to see that there is a distinction that I wasn't thinking about ( and being somewhat overly dense myself); rather than it simply being an 'us' vs. 'them' debate without anything really substantial to back up the arguments

-Dan

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Posted by reklein on Monday, July 6, 2009 9:16 AM

I don't agree with the title where it says" VS". I swing both ways . I'm currently" building "from kits and using Clver House Transfers a "collection of beer reefers.Cool

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Posted by Graffen on Monday, July 6, 2009 9:12 AM

wm3798

 If you like running your trains, and can't stand the idea of them idling away in a dust covered box, you'll love this!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZ8IjZ3tUas

"I threw the box away!"  My favorite line!

Lee

I love it! Its in the same wonderful spirit as the worlds best motor show: "Top Gear" Bow

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Posted by Heartland Division CB&Q on Monday, July 6, 2009 9:04 AM

I prefer to be the "model Railroader", but I have more than is needed to operate the layout.

I suppose I am an "accumulator" as well as a "model railroader".

GARRY

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Posted by pastorbob on Monday, July 6, 2009 9:00 AM

For me, with over 260 diesels on or near the railroad, I do not consider myself a collector.  I happen to like having DCC consists set up on almost all the diesels.  The railroad will accomodate 40 - or so consists on the layout for operating sessions, the rest set on shelves in the dispatcher area.  The consist numbers are displayed on the shelves.  I rotate consists on and off after operating sessions, so all units get to operate at various times.  In other words, what sits on the shelf also gets operated.  No collections garthering dust.

Yeah, I happen to like diesels, but they have to be able to earn their keep  (place on the shelves).

Bob

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Posted by wm3798 on Monday, July 6, 2009 8:55 AM

 If you like running your trains, and can't stand the idea of them idling away in a dust covered box, you'll love this!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZ8IjZ3tUas

"I threw the box away!"  My favorite line!

Lee

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Posted by dknelson on Monday, July 6, 2009 8:39 AM

If owning more than you need makes you a collector then we are surely all collectors, and any model railroader surely has a "collection" of trains.  But "modelers" don't necessarily buy for the purpose of owning more than we "need."  It just happens.  

To my mind, having a collection does not necessarily make you a Collector.   Opening the package, throwing away the box, removing or changing details, modifying the couplers, painting and weathering, running the train until it breaks down and cannot be repaired  -- to varying degrees each of those things drives a true Collector nuts. 

Having 4 dozens painted and weathered and detailed engines on the layout does strike me as fundamentally different than having the same 4 dozen engines new in the box, untouched, lovingly tended. 

Put another way, I don't think of Avis or Hertz as "car collectors."

Dave Nelson

 

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Posted by CNJ831 on Monday, July 6, 2009 8:39 AM

Honestly, Dan, they are two totally different pursuits. One deals with obtaining similar items only for the purpose of having a collection to admire. It involves nothing beyond the aspect of acquiring. The other is a highly involved, multi-disciplined, pursuit in which acquiring specific items of a certain kind is only one small aspect of the whole. Is collecting baseball cards the same as play baseball? Wink

CNJ831 

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"Collector" vs. "Model Railroader"
Posted by NeO6874 on Monday, July 6, 2009 8:27 AM

  I've seen a lot of this "collector vs. Model Railroader" being thrown around over the weekend...maybe it's the topics that came up... maybe it's just that time of summer... don't know what's causing it.

 

maybe I'm being daft, but aren't we all collectors (at least to some degree)?  I mean, there are differences between the 'operator' and 'keep it in mint condition in the box' mentalities... but there are also differences in the 'operations' and 'scenery' mentalities of building a layout.

 

here's what I see as SIMILARITIES between the two "camps"

  • want a locomotive specific to a RR, with proper details, etc (even sound at this point) 
  • may want said locomotive to accurately represent engine #### from 19## as delivered from [Lima/Baldwin/Alco/Fairbanks-Morse/GM/EMD/whoever else]
  • may have supporting documentation to 'prove' said loco is an exact replica of the 1:1 scale
  • may have other RR (1:1) related historical information (books, train orders, shop documentation, signals/signs, lanterns, whatever) -- commonly referred to as "stuff" and completely misunderstood by SWMBO Wink


and there's probably a lot more that I havent thought of...

 

the only DIFFERENCE  between the two "camps":

  •   MRR wants the thing to run and look good while doing so (ie, not so much overhang) -- but will accept a degree of detail infidelity to get that characteristic (a degree of slop in the drivers, double-articulation [at times], an extra scale foot between the cab and tender, or some missing detail on the underbody to allow for our crazy-tight [compared to 1:1] curves) -- they'll usually make the necessary changes themselves, OR expect the MFG to take this into acct.
  • Non-operating collectors (based on what's been said here) seem to want the thing mint in box, regardless of whether or not it needs some work to run smoothly or properly track around our crazy-tight (compared to 1:1) curves.


other than that... I honestly can't think of anything that really separates "us" from "them" -- i can almost guarantee that all of "us" have a good number of things around that take up space in display cases or shelves, just because we don't have the space/time/money to run everything we want to (or it came from family as a gift and totally doesn't match...)

 

 

any other ideas on this? (keep it CIVIL though)

-Dan

Builder of Bowser steam! Railimages Site

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